Government wants a 50% increase in interantional students coming to study in Ireland

Son Of A Vidic

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0922/students_strategy.html

We might be better off looking after our own students first. We are returning to the days of the oul 'Brain drain' and this is what our government come out with. They claim that no Irish students would be displaced by international students, how? Because these places would be apparently self funding. Funny, when I read the bit about no Irish student being displaced, a pig flew past my window.

Dean820

I agree with the government on this one, we need more better looking foreign students for the Irish males to get off with.

Dardania

I love the bit "self-funded" - BS! The rates they charge foreign students (particularly from outside the EU) is more than the cost of educating that student, so that in effect the foreign students pay part of the cost of education Irish / EU students.

Tis a great way to sustain 3rd level without increasing funding to it, and I'm all in favour of it, if only for the foreign hotties to expand the gene pool here...

The Waltzing Consumer

The Government will get lots of money cause international students pay huge fees for studying in Ireland. As for the looking after Irish students first comment, there is nothing stopping Irish students from going to private colleges and paying fees and getting a place.

Wertz

medicman2009 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0922/students_strategy.html

We might be better off looking after our own students first. We are returning to the days of the oul 'Brain drain' and this is what our government come out with. They claim that no Irish students would be displaced by international students, how? Because these places would be apparently self funding. Funny, when I read the bit about no Irish student being displaced, a pig flew past my window.

Listening to that amadán Coughlan on RTÉ lunch just now talking about this (among other issues), I fear for the future of this country. These people haven't got a f*cking clue.
The real issue here is that these intl students would be paying for their place as opposed to many Irish students who would be grant funded or paying no fees...to say that that won't displace at least some Irish students is an outright lie. Self funding me hole.

Archeron

Wonder how the foreign students will feel about this when they hear the statistics that we have the highest murder rate of young men in Europe, and the second biggest problem with knife killings.

Though, in fairness they are probably just coming over for the weather.

Dardania

Archeron wrote: »

Wonder how the foreign students will feel about this when they hear the statistics that we have the highest murder rate of young men in Europe, and the second biggest problem with knife killings.

Though, in fairness they are probably just coming over for the weather.

Do we? Source?

RobbieTheRobber

This might be because foreign students would pay their fees and so be a benefit to the economy through taxation.

Just read the article yeah thast pretty much it.

Op why do we need to look at our own students first?

omahaid

Dardania wrote: »

Do we? Source?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0922/crime.html

RobbieTheRobber

Dardania wrote: »

I love the bit "self-funded" - BS! The rates they charge foreign students (particularly from outside the EU) is more than the cost of educating that student, so that in effect the foreign students pay part of the cost of education Irish / EU students.

Tis a great way to sustain 3rd level without increasing funding to it, and I'm all in favour of it, if only for the foreign hotties to expand the gene pool here...

That and the fees for evening students I am doing a part time degree course in trinity at nights for the past three years in my fourth now, my fees this year were just over €6,000 which obviously have to be paid by me.

squod

Dardania wrote: »

I'm all in favour of it, if only for the foreign hotties to expand the gene pool here...

Defo, extra marks for good looks

starbelgrade

Another half-arsed & half-baked idea from out wonderful leaders & a complete avoidance of what they should really be doing, which is to charge 3rd level fees to those who can afford them.

Most 3rd level places in Dublin are taken up by those from wealthier areas & families and yet they are allowed somehow to avail of the free tuition fees that were supposedly brought in to help fund the cost of education for those whose families are in the lower income brackets.

But as we all know, Fianna Fail will not change this any time soon, as they know who votes for them at the polls.. and it's not the working classes.

patmac

Government wants a 50% increase in interantional students coming to study in Ireland.

What's an interantional student? Is it one of those mixed marraiges yokes? If they do come hopefully they can spell.

Son Of A Vidic

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Op why do we need to look at our own students first?

Probably because they were born and reared here perhaps? They have an entitlement to education, rather than being pushed into emigration.

Dardania

omahaid wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0922/crime.html

Hmmm...sounds bad alright. But perhaps the freakonomics theory linking abortion to reduction in crime rates might be applicable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

RobbieTheRobber

medicman2009 wrote: »

Probably because they were born and reared here perhaps? They have an entitlement to education, rather than being pushed into emigration.

They can get free education i dont see what more you want the government to do for them.
Except maybe you want the government to pay them for attending college?

Son Of A Vidic

patmac wrote: »

What's an interantional student?

Inter-rant -ional is simply a manifestation of my time spent in the R&R forum.

But in reply to your question, an inte-rant-ional student is clearly someone who has an keen interest in the R&R forum.

So I can teach them how to rant & rave and you can teach them how to spell, deal?

Son Of A Vidic

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Except maybe you want the government to pay them for attending college?

Where did this assumption come from?

RobbieTheRobber

medicman2009 wrote: »

Where did this assumption come from?

Ok then what else do you want the Irish government to do for Irish students?

KerranJast

Colleges need money. The Government can't afford to give them any more. So the colleges can either:
- Take in more international and mature students to make up fee income that way
or
- The Government removes the free fees entitlement from Irish students.

Joe and Mary Soap are too shortsighted to realise that free fees are hurting their kids chances of getting a place because the more international places that are made available the less places for Irish students and so higher points.

The Waltzing Consumer

starbelgrade wrote: »

Another half-arsed & half-baked idea from out wonderful leaders & a complete avoidance of what they should really be doing, which is to charge 3rd level fees to those who can afford them.

Most 3rd level places in Dublin are taken up by those from wealthier areas & families and yet they are allowed somehow to avail of the free tuition fees that were supposedly brought in to help fund the cost of education for those whose families are in the lower income brackets.

But as we all know, Fianna Fail will not change this any time soon, as they know who votes for them at the polls.. and it's not the working classes.

I don't think you are right in saying that most 3rd level places are taken up by those from wealthier areas and families.

But even if this is the case, why do you think that these people, who pay the most tax and make up the majority of the population, should have to pay fees, whilst lower income areas and families, who get huge benefits anyway and pay the least or no tax, reap the rewards of others hard work and their taxes?

Son Of A Vidic

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Ok then what else do you want the Irish government to do for Irish students?

They're job perhaps?

KerranJast

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I don't think you are right in saying that most 3rd level places are taken up by those from wealthier areas and families.

But even if this is the case, why do you think that these people, who pay the most tax and make up the majority of the population, should have to pay fees, whilst lower income areas and families, who get huge benefits anyway and pay the least or no tax, reap the rewards of others hard work and their taxes?

They pay the least or no tax in absolute terms but relative to their income its quite substantial.

Plus the reason for free fees wasn't to give nearly 100% of middle class kids a guaranteed 3rd level place (which is whats happened). It was to help kids from difficult backgrounds get to college and therefore have a positive impact on social problems and crime.

starbelgrade

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I don't think you are right in saying that most 3rd level places are taken up by those from wealthier areas and families.

In the cases of Dublin universities, this is most definitely the case.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

But even if this is the case, why do you think that these people, who pay the most tax and make up the majority of the population, should have to pay fees, whilst lower income areas and families, who get huge benefits anyway and pay the least or no tax, reap the rewards of others hard work and their taxes?

Because if there is to be any social value to tax systems, that's how they are meant to work.

RobbieTheRobber

medicman2009 wrote: »

They're job perhaps?

Is this just a rant of a thread or do you have even a tiny point to make?

Blisterman

Archeron wrote: »

Wonder how the foreign students will feel about this when they hear the statistics that we have the highest murder rate of young men in Europe, and the second biggest problem with knife killings.

Though, in fairness they are probably just coming over for the weather.

Western Europe.
There's a huge difference.

The Waltzing Consumer

KerranJast wrote: »

They pay the least or no tax in absolute terms but relative to their income its quite substantial.

Plus the reason for free fees wasn't to give nearly 100% of middle class kids a guaranteed 3rd level place (which is whats happened). It was to help kids from difficult backgrounds get to college and therefore have a positive impact on social problems and crime.

Relative to their income? I would be guessing working class is someone who might work in a shop, so there weekly wage for a full time week is about 300 to 400 Euro, they pay pretty much nothing on that in tax so how is it substantial? If they were taxed like middle class or upper class, it could be 40% of 300 to 400 euro a week, that's substantial!

I agree that the free fees was brought in to allow more access to lower income families and students who may normally have never had the means to go to college, and that is what it did, it has been very successful in getting more and more people to college.

Turtyturd

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

They can get free education i dont see what more you want the government to do for them.
Except maybe you want the government to pay them for attending college?

Three cheers for BTEA.

Wertz

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Relative to their income? I would be guessing working class is someone who might work in a shop, so there weekly wage for a full time week is about 300 to 400 Euro, they pay pretty much nothing on that in tax so how is it substantial? If they were taxed like middle class or upper class, it could be 40% of 300 to 400 euro a week, that's substantial!

I take it you've heard of consumption taxes...

Overall, people from working classes pay a higher % of their annual income than those in high earning/high tax bracket employment, mainly because of a high VAT rate and secondary/stealth/double taxation. Higher bracket earners may pay more physical money, but it may not make up the same % of their earnings by the time you take everything into account.

PeterIanStaker

Turtyturd wrote: »

Three cheers for BTEA.

Great if you can get qualify for it, its very limited.

Son Of A Vidic

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Is this just a rant of a thread or do you have even a tiny point to make?

Not a rant, I do my frequent ranting in R&R I'm afraid. Could you not see my point in my OP? Obviously not, so I'll spell it out for you. The Irish government have stated they are going to offer up more student places to international students. Yet they expect us to believe that this won't be to the detriment of potential Irish student places?

Typical short term view of course, ''Ah sure, we'll get a few pound from them.'' Now there is a stronger likelihood that if we educate our Irish kids and give them the tools they need, then they'll hopefully remain in their homeland. No guarantee of course, but it’s logical to assume more likely.

So in the long term, the country will undoubtedly benefit by preventing an Irish 'brain drain'. But then I suppose, we have a Government that never can see the bigger picture or long term view. Hence the sh1te this country is now in.

KerranJast

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I agree that the free fees was brought in to allow more access to lower income families and students who may normally have never had the means to go to college, and that is what it did, it has been very successful in getting more and more people to college.

More and more middle class people. There was a report done recently that showed that there's only been a slight increase in the numbers of disadvantaged kids going to 3rd level since fees came in.

The main reason? Middle class parents are able to use the money saved from not having to pay fees to fund private 2nd level fees and/or college accommodation.

The Waltzing Consumer

Wertz wrote: »

I take it you've heard of consumption taxes...

Overall, people from working classes pay a higher % of their annual income than those in high earning/high tax bracket employment, mainly because of a high VAT rate and secondary/stealth/double taxation. Higher bracket earners may pay more physical money, but it may not make up the same % of their earnings by the time you take everything into account.

I see what you are saying, even though I disagree with you. It is a bit of a tangent from college places though. I just don't see why people want the majority of people, who have paid the most tax, pay for college fees too. You talk about double taxation, do you think it is fair for a high tax paying family to pay fees for college, even though their taxes have already paid for it?

The Waltzing Consumer

KerranJast wrote: »

More and more middle class people. There was a report done recently that showed that there's only been a slight increase in the numbers of disadvantaged kids going to 3rd level since fees came in.

The main reason? Middle class parents are able to use the money saved from not having to pay fees to fund private 2nd level fees and/or college accommodation.

Why is there only a slight increase? It is not because of free fees. It may be the way the CAO works but that is a different issue. The free fees is available to everyone, whether they get the place seems to be a matter for the CAO right?

I don't really see how some parent who is paying rent for their kid at college has any impact on how well a disadvantage kid does in his leaving cert and the CAO procedures? Can you explain that to me? Usually renting college accomadation happens after the leaving cert which determines your college place.

Euro_Kraut

Jesus, if the Govt said tomorrow that they liked puppies some people would be complaining about it.

We have nothing to fear from more highly intelligent foreigners coming to our University and raising standards.

Additionally a lot of these new students will be coming to learning English in language schools. There is big money to be made here and its not like we are displacing Irish students.

Even broken clocks tell the right-time twice a day. The Govt might have got this one right.

goose2005

starbelgrade wrote: »

But as we all know, Fianna Fail will not change this any time soon, as they know who votes for them at the polls.. and it's not the working classes.

Yes it is. Why do you think they put a huge increase on the dole every year, especially election years? (It was only about €100 ten years ago)

amacachi

Wertz wrote: »

I take it you've heard of consumption taxes...

Overall, people from working classes pay a higher % of their annual income than those in high earning/high tax bracket employment, mainly because of a high VAT rate and secondary/stealth/double taxation. Higher bracket earners may pay more physical money, but it may not make up the same % of their earnings by the time you take everything into account.

Unless the "higher" earners are hoarding their cash then they'll be faced with the same percentage consumption taxes as well as the income taxes to begin with, which in my mind works out higher than those who pay no income tax and should be mainly spending money on food with no VAT on it.

KINGVictor

medicman2009 wrote: »

Not a rant, I do my frequent ranting in R&R I'm afraid. Could you not see my point in my OP? Obviously not, so I'll spell it out for you. The Irish government have stated they are going to offer up more student places to international students. Yet they expect us to believe that this won't be to the detriment of potential Irish student places?

Typical short term view of course, ''Ah sure, we'll get a few pound from them.'' Now there is a stronger likelihood that if we educate our Irish kids and give them the tools they need, then they'll hopefully remain in their homeland. No guarantee of course, but it’s logical to assume more likely.

So in the long term, the country will undoubtedly benefit by preventing an Irish 'brain drain'. But then I suppose, we have a Government that never can see the bigger picture or long term view. Hence the sh1te this country is now in.

I dont agree with you. On the contrary, the Irish government does a lot to facilitate its student population access to education. Unlike most OECD countries, disadvantaged Irish students are given grants to attend college in other to help them cope with the financial implications of attending third level institutions. Public discourse including this forum indicate that this system is repeatedly abused and this grants are in actual fact utilised for other purposes.

A typical Irish student pays under a €1000 for fees in my college while international students pay about €10,000 for the same facilities (on campus) and tuition.

It is right to say that education should be subsidised for nationals but it is also correct that this institutions cannot survive from government funding alone , hence the need to admit foreign students ( although it is noteworthy that this will not be the primary or sole reason, as the colleges/universities need a diversified and vibrant body of students).

I watched the RTE news yesterday and a correspondent interviewed a Chinese student that intended coming to UCD , her family had to budget about €50000 for the year - for fees , accomodation and living expences. We have to remember that she had a choice of going to other competitor countries that presumably have better educational reputations and standards. Universities/colleges in the US, Uk, Australia etc spend considerable amount of capital in attracting foreign students both for funding and for portfolio reasons, I honestly dont see any reason why Ireland should be different , especially with the knowledge-based economy rhetoric.

bobblepuzzle

International Students pay their own fees... so what don't you get OP?? Its about the almighty $dollar$ euro! Always has been, always will be...

Overheal

medicman2009 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0922/students_strategy.html

Oh really, Irish Government?

Fcuk You.

The amount of paperwork I had to file for a student visa each year of college turned out to be ridiculous. Right down to having to show them my bank accounts, and proof of residence when you're a student is not as straightforward as it first sounds. I won't blame them for the job market crash, but it is what it is.

They could have kept me but noooo. I buy your goods and services, pay your VAT, pay the college fees and still get treated like a stranger when I go in for visa. I had enough of it.

Snowie

MmM the government have to lower another 3 billion of this years budget,
International students have to pay for there fees its only logical to attract them as they pay money... and the governement dont.... makes sence....

southsiderosie

Archeron wrote: »

Wonder how the foreign students will feel about this when they hear the statistics that we have the highest murder rate of young men in Europe, and the second biggest problem with knife killings.

Though, in fairness they are probably just coming over for the weather.

Um, if they are attracting students from the US, I'd say Ireland is an improvement, crime-wise anyway.

medicman2009 wrote: »

Not a rant, I do my frequent ranting in R&R I'm afraid. Could you not see my point in my OP? Obviously not, so I'll spell it out for you. The Irish government have stated they are going to offer up more student places to international students. Yet they expect us to believe that this won't be to the detriment of potential Irish student places?

Typical short term view of course, ''Ah sure, we'll get a few pound from them.'' Now there is a stronger likelihood that if we educate our Irish kids and give them the tools they need, then they'll hopefully remain in their homeland. No guarantee of course, but it’s logical to assume more likely.

So in the long term, the country will undoubtedly benefit by preventing an Irish 'brain drain'. But then I suppose, we have a Government that never can see the bigger picture or long term view. Hence the sh1te this country is now in.

I don't understand what you are so worked up about. Fee paying students subsidize non-fee paying students in every university system in the world. Since the Irish government doesn't charge fees (which is absurd), they have to look outside to subsidize the students within the system. OR YOU CAN PAY FEES.

In addition, the Irish government is paying for people to go to university who then turn around and work in the UK, Canada or Australia. I.e., they are subsidizing the workforce training of other countries. At least this way they aren't subsidizing other nation's human capital development.

Overheal wrote: »

Oh really, Irish Government?

Fcuk You.

The amount of paperwork I had to file for a student visa each year of college turned out to be ridiculous. Right down to having to show them my bank accounts, and proof of residence when you're a student is not as straightforward as it first sounds. I won't blame them for the job market crash, but it is what it is.

They could have kept me but noooo. I buy your goods and services, pay your VAT, pay the college fees and still get treated like a stranger when I go in for visa. I had enough of it.

AMEN. :mad::mad::mad:

DonJose

Archeron wrote: »

we have the highest murder rate of young men in Europe, and the second biggest problem with knife killings.

In Soviet Russia we kill with fork!!!