Ahern to Use Undercover Kids

starbelgrade

Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice, is set to use kids from 15-17 in sting operations next month by sending them into licenced premises to try and buy alcohol.

This is in a effort to .... wait for it... crack down on kids buying alcohol.

Nice one Dermot - you really have proven this time, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are a complete & utter moron.

Link; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0921/breaking62.html

Random

the kids are using ahern here, they'll be able to tell their mates who'll serve them

dan185

and what exactly is the issue with this?

galwayrush

The title is misleading...............:pac::pac::pac:

galwayrush

dan185 wrote: »

and what exactly is the issue with this?

The Minister is getting them to break the law.......:rolleyes:

strokemyclover

Dermot Ahern. Stern. Stern but fair!

amacachi

dan185 wrote: »

and what exactly is the issue with this?

I'm guessing because it's an idea from the current government.

Sanjuro

Me thinks Mr. Aherne has been watching too much 21 Jump Street. Idiot.

phasers

how do the kids apply for this job?

AckwelFoley

starbelgrade wrote: »

Nice one Dermot - you really have proven this time, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are a complete & utter moron.

How does this make him a moron?

Gardai send in Youths, to attempt to buy drink, and if successful - the gardai will take action.

Doesnt seem very stupid to me

Red Hand

Which Hern?

Bazzo

I think that they've been doing this for a while. I've certainly heard about "secret shoppers"(I think that was the term used ) several years ago.

ronanc15

Sure that is being done for years? How else would you suggest they test off licences and shops for serving to underage people?

efb

They arn't breaking the law if he changes it.

Might make offies think twice about serving underage, and less under age drinking Im all for!!!!

bonerm

Sanjuro wrote: »

Me thinks Mr. Aherne has been watching too much 21 Jump Street. Idiot.

Now that's a vintage reference that might be lost on some people! :eek:

DOC09UNAM

galwayrush wrote: »

The Minister is getting them to break the law.......:rolleyes:

The kids aren't breaking the law at all.

squod

BREAKING NEWSHundreds Gather For Funeral Of Tortured Spy
N.Zealand burn-off sends dope smoke over school

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100921/tod-n-zealand-burn-off-sends-dope-smoke-7f81b96.html

Ahern's not that bad, they've gone to pot altogether over in New Zealand.

Sofiztikated

Ah now, starbel, I usually agree with you however, Imma stop you right there, Beyonce had the greatest video of all time....er, yeah.

It happens all the time, jung'uns going into the shops trying to buy booze/smokes, and the shop gets reported. I don't see what this is making the papers for.

Its a standard practise to find out what shops/pubs are breaking the law.

galwayrush

efb wrote: »

They arn't breaking the law if he changes it.

Might make offies think twice about serving underage, and less under age drinking Im all for!!!!

Agree, but most underage kids who want the booze will do as the've always done, get someone old enough to buy it for them.:rolleyes:

starbelgrade

snyper wrote: »

How does this make him a moron?

Gardai send in Youths, to attempt to buy drink, and if successful - the gardai will take action.

Doesnt seem very stupid to me

It seems idiotic to me. The Gardai already have the powers to ID people who look underage... if there's a problem with enforcement as it stands, it's because the Gardai either don't have enough resources to police it properly or just don't bother.

Using children to help them enforce a law that is not enforced, therefor, seems like a rather bizzare thing to do. And it is, in all essence, using them.

We're not talking about adults here, but kids, who really have no place in Garda operations.

efb

galwayrush wrote: »

Agree, but most underage kids who want the booze will do as the've always done, get someone old enough to buy it for them.:rolleyes:

Agreed but closing channels limits supply, making the amount of drunk knackbags harassing me smaller.

starbelgrade

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Ah now, starbel, I usually agree with you however, Imma stop you right there, Beyonce had the greatest video of all time....er, yeah.

It happens all the time, jung'uns going into the shops trying to buy booze/smokes, and the shop gets reported. I don't see what this is making the papers for.

Its a standard practise to find out what shops/pubs are breaking the law.

Yes - what happens now is that shops get reported for selling to underage kids. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is that Gardai will now be actively recruiting children & using them to aid them in sting operations, which in my opinion is a step too far.

They'll even be using kids as young as 15 - kids not even old enough to legally work.

sagat2

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yes - what happens now is that shops get reported for selling to underage kids. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is that Gardai will now be actively recruiting children & using them to aid them in sting operations, which in my opinion is a step too far.

They'll even be using kids as young as 15 - kids not even old enough to legally work.

Sending kids into pubs to catch those selling to them is standard practice in the US and many other countries. Big deal out of nothing.

LionelNashe

starbelgrade wrote: »

It seems idiotic to me. The Gardai already have the powers to ID people who look underage... if there's a problem with enforcement as it stands, it's because the Gardai either don't have enough resources to police it properly or just don't bother.

Using children to help them enforce a law that is not enforced, therefor, seems like a rather bizzare thing to do. And it is, in all essence, using them.

We're not talking about adults here, but kids, who really have no place in Garda operations.

Surely its a much more efficient use of resources to send a teenager into the shop and find out straight away if the shop is ignoring the law, instead of having to wait outside a shop on the offchance that a teenager will walk out with alcohol.

starbelgrade

sagat2 wrote: »

Sending kids into pubs to catch those selling to them is standard practice in the US

So is the death penalty.


(Waits for "how can you compare this to the death penalty?" replies, while smiling wryly!)

William Powell

sagat2 wrote: »

Sending kids into pubs to catch those selling to them is standard practice in the US and many other countries. Big deal out of nothing.

Its the job of Trading Standards in the UK. Might be better having the garda responcible for it here as I know the Trading Standards officers in the UK often get attacked after they point out to the traders that they have just broken the law and are going to court and will lose their licence. Trading Standards also run the same operation sending in underage kids buying cigarettes.

Mrmoe

I can't see a problem with this. It seems that it is an efficient way of detecting pubs/off licences that serve people who are underage.

round tower huntsman

well done ff minister:rolleyes: the country is awash with drugs and scumbags. heroin's spreading like a plague to rural towns from the cities and ahern wahts to use cops to stop kids getting their hands on some blue wicked:mad:
ffs, fair enough underage drinking might be a problem but if kids are underage to drink then they're the parents problem.

krudler

"No way man! Im not wearing a wire! get yourself another freakin' patsy man!"

Red Hand

krudler wrote: »

"No way man! Im not wearing a wire! get yourself another freakin' patsy man!"

Oi'm no' a grahss, Copper!:mad:

/The Bill

messymess

phasers wrote: »

how do the kids apply for this job?

The words, juvenile court and community service, come to mind!

flash1080

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yes - what happens now is that shops get reported for selling to underage kids. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is that Gardai will now be actively recruiting children & using them to aid them in sting operations, which in my opinion is a step too far.

They'll even be using kids as young as 15 - kids not even old enough to legally work.

You can legally work at 15.

starbelgrade wrote: »

Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice, is set to use kids from 15-17 in sting operations next month by sending them into licenced premises to try and buy alcohol.

This is in a effort to .... wait for it... crack down on kids buying alcohol.

Nice one Dermot - you really have proven this time, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are a complete & utter moron.

Link; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0921/breaking62.html

What's the problem?

humanji

Is this not a case of entrapment?

I kind of see it as cracking down on drink drivers by giving drink to drivers, and then arresting them.

Red Hand

humanji wrote: »

Is this not a case of entrapment?

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

Earthhorse

starbelgrade wrote: »

So is the death penalty.

How can you compare this to the death penalty while smiling wryly?

Guy:Incognito

round tower huntsman wrote: »

well done ff minister:rolleyes: the country is awash with drugs and scumbags. heroin's spreading like a plague to rural towns from the cities and ahern wahts to use cops to stop kids getting their hands on some blue wicked:mad:
ffs, fair enough underage drinking might be a problem but if kids are underage to drink then they're the parents problem.

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

Earthhorse

humanji wrote: »

Is this not a case of entrapment?

I kind of see it as cracking down on drink drivers by giving drink to drivers, and then arresting them.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

Nope.

Per Wikipedia: In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

humanji

Stekelly wrote: »

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

It works for Chief Wiggum.

humanji

Earthhorse wrote: »

Nope.

Per Wikipedia: In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

Would that not depend on what is said by the teen then? If they persuaded the shopkeeper then would that be a case of entrapment, since he was coherced into doing it?

Red Hand

humanji wrote: »

Would that not depend on what is said by the teen then? If they persuaded the shopkeeper then would that be a case of entrapment, since he was coherced into doing it?

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

humanji

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

Of if they dressed midgets as children. There's a whole legal minefield we're entering into here!

TheZohanS

Ahern to Use Undercover Kids

First thing I thought of when I read the op.

First thing I thought of was that Aherne was going to clean up the church.

Earthhorse

I imagine as long as the teen doesn't go to lengths outside of what a normal teenager goes to to acquire the alcohol it wouldn't be regarded as entrapment. How exactly that works in law, I don't know. So far as I know this practise is nothing new in any event so one assumes it's effective at some level or they wouldn't continue with it.

round tower huntsman

Stekelly wrote: »

At what level of law should the Gardai start not bothering with? Maybe put every Grda resource in to the single worst law that is broken and ignore everything else?

i'd rather see more cops chasing down rogue bankers and drug dealing gangsters then kids out on the knacker. moneys tight and all law enforcement spending will be down at next budget, this is not money well spent imo.

Bogger77

round tower huntsman wrote: »

i'd rather see more cops chasing down rogue bankers and drug dealing gangsters then kids out on the knacker. moneys tight and all law enforcement spending will be down at next budget, this is not money well spent imo.

yawn
Is there not a law, like Godwin's where people inevitably mention rogue bankers regardless of the thread subject?

round tower huntsman

listen cos of the bankers and ff all we have left is drink,the kids included. bacardi breezers is allour kids have to look forward too. leave em alone for gods sake.

mickdw

Im pretty sure that this use of kids in secretly buying alcohol in written into the intoxicating liqueur act of 2008. Again from memory, I think it allows for gardai to ask an underage child with permission from parent to carry out the task.
Good idea IMO

round tower huntsman

wonder will the cops use their own kids??:rolleyes:

starbelgrade

Was there something on Joe Duffy about underage drinking recently?

It would explain a lot.

William Powell

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Or what if they hired kids that genuinely look 18 or over?

In the UK they don't and can't see why it would be different here. afaik (as they always say I know someone who just happens to work in Trading Standards in the UK and does this particular job) they try and use kids that look a lot younger than they really are so there is no argument when it gets to court.

@round tower huntsman - They wouldn't use the gards own kids as that might lead to reprisals. Sounds easy but its not a nice job.

Dennis the Stone

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0921/testpurchasingguidelines.pdf

If at any stage something goes wrong during the operation, notify the Gardaí and the operation will be stopped immediately.

At that stage the undercover garda pulls out his piece and starts pistol whipping the publican.