Irish Times article - Why I'm closing my practice

Mad Benny

The article can be found here http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2010/0921/1224279345754.html.

NEWS FOCUS: Draconian cutbacks in state-sponsored dental schemes have led to a severe drop in the number of patients. Dentist Paul O'Dwyer tells his story

NEXT MONTH, after a decade serving the community in rural Co Tipperary, my dental practice will close.

When I graduated from UCC in 1997 I could not have foreseen this sad day. I hardly expected that over the coming years the State would sequentially cut the levels of financial support for patients in need of procedures, and thereby put them out of reach.

So how has it come to this?

Dentistry in Ireland is at a crossroads. This time last year, two State-sponsored dental schemes operated in this State and covered dental bills, at least in part, for 80 per cent of the adult population here.

That is not a typo. Eight out of every 10 Irish adults who attended their dentist could seek benefit under one or both of these two schemes.

The Dental Treatment Benefit Scheme (DTBS) allowed employed PRSI-entitled patients and their dependent spouses to attend their dentist for an annual free check-up and scale and polish per year. They could also be subsidised for routine procedures such as fillings, extractions and dentures, where the service was provided by their local dentist who was paid on a fee-per-item basis.

Meanwhile, the Dental Treatment Services Scheme (DTSS) allowed medical card holders to attend their dentist free of charge for routine examination, scale and polish and general dental procedures without the burden of expense to them. Again the service was provided by the patient’s local dentist and he/she was remunerated on a fee-per-item basis.

The obvious advantage to the patient was not alone costs – it also encouraged patients to attend their dentist, leading to improved dental health for the population as a whole.

Then came the clouds. Last year, An Bord Snip Nua recommended that the PRSI scheme be downgraded. Efforts by the dental profession and considered opinion from health experts were ignored. An independent

I have enormous sympathy for any business that is forced to close in this curreny economic depression however having recently been to the dentist and paid €600 for three hours work I find this story difficult to swallow.

My recent visit was with a Dublin dentist for root canal treatment. The entire procedure from start to finish took three hours on one sitting. I priced this with other dentists and found it to be similar.

If the dentists of Ireland charged a reasonable amount then maybe the government wouldn't have decided to target them in cost cutting measures. Why can dentists in the north charge a fraction of the cost and make a living?

Cookie_Monster

because:

rent
rates
staff
electricity
gas
water
insurance
professional fees
red tape expenses
accountant fees
supplies
equipment

are all more expensive down here than up north.
All these costs need to be reduced (across every business) for the consumer to see the benefit, but most are directly or indirectly controlled by the government who have shown no interest in trying to aid cost reduction.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Madd Finn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because:

rent
rates
staff
electricity
gas
water
insurance
professional fees
red tape expenses
accountant fees
supplies
equipment

are all more expensive down here than up north.

Cobblers!

If his electricity is more expensive than elsewhere, so is mine.
If his gas is more expensive than elsewhere, so is mine.
If his water is more expensive than elsewhere, so is mine, or at least it will be when they get around to metering it where I live.

How come food costs mostly more or less what it does up north?
How come computers cost more or less what they do up north?
How come many people's services cost less here than they do elsewhere?

One interesting question the interviewer didn't ask: where's this guy going to go and what is he going to be doing? If he goes to the UK he'll be the same whining gob****e complaining about lack of state support for his services than he was here.

It's about time those who buy medical/dental/pharmaceutical services on behalf of the tax payer started putting the boot into those professions who have been riding us all for years.

We did it to the taxi drivers more than ten years ago. (and we were dead right to). It's well overdue time to do the same to such professions as the medical ones listed above.

And solicitors.
And accountants.

We'll get around to all of them eventually.

keithclancy

I went to one dentist who wanted me to pay 40 quid on top of the PRSI contributions and went to a different one who didnt charge anything extra.

I dont think thats the reason, I think the Dentists have just become accustomed to a certain lifestyle and can't go back

i.e. Mercedes, 400k house, second house down by the sea, another one rented out to students etc etc.

SkepticOne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because:

rent
rates
staff
electricity
gas
water
insurance
professional fees
red tape expenses
accountant fees
supplies
equipment

are all more expensive down here than up north.
All these costs need to be reduced (across every business) for the consumer to see the benefit, but most are directly or indirectly controlled by the government who have shown no interest in trying to aid cost reduction.

Keeping prices high (and I think he would have mentioned it if he had lowered them) didn't help the dentist in the article meet his costs. There seems to be a lot of denial out there among certain types of businesses ("the professions") and a belief that keeping prices high is a way to maintain income.

hinault

The letter writer says he lives in rural Tipperary.

I live in Thurles Town and there are five separate dentistry practices in this town alone.

Perhaps there is an oversupply of dentists throughout Tipperary, coupled with the cutbacks in this scheme?

SkepticOne

Madd Finn wrote: »

We did it to the taxi drivers more than ten years ago. (and we were dead right to). It's well overdue time to do the same to such professions as the medical ones listed above.

The taxi drivers only lost their closed shop because the government which was trying to protect them lost their case in court.

dunsandin

Surely the title of the thread is the fundamental issue -why I am closing my practice-??? If this guy was ripping the p1s5 with his clients, surely the thread would be called "why I am having to reduce my prices"???
I know €600 for 3 hours sounds like a rip-off, but I can kinda sympathise. To rent even a room in a shared dental practice is a SERIOUSLY expensive business. The dental nurse is not on the minimum wage, and like aero-spares, if you tack the word "Dental-" onto a product or tool, it starts to get very pricey.
For an example(and no, im not a dentist) I did a job today, I needed some fairly specialist supplies to do it, so I went along to the one outlet that sells them - that'l be €290.00 please. I put diesel in the van_€40.00 please, I needed some basic consumables to do the job, -€30.00, and I needed to have a house and feed people who refer to me as dad and husband, pay some bills, and generally exist. So, no doubt the client was thinking that the hour I spent doing the job for them was a complete rip-off. But with fixed costs(and I forgot to add lenno's cut) at €360.00, and my overheads running at €56.00 an hour, before my own bit, and an hours drive there and another back, a bill for €600 for three hours is about where its at. And I aint no dentist, and was not making any killing whatsoever. And sadly, I didnt have a pretty nurse in a low cut outfit to hand me things either. Pity though....maybe the lad who's closing up could spare me his?

danbohan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because:

rent
rates
staff
electricity
gas
water
insurance
professional fees
red tape expenses
accountant fees
supplies
equipment
DENTISTS
are all more expensive down here than up north.
All these costs need to be reduced (across every business) for the consumer to see the benefit, but most are directly or indirectly controlled by the government who have shown no interest in trying to aid cost reduction.

just brought a bit of realism to that for you

murphaph

Lol at the poor dentists.

I also had the misfortune of needing root canal (5 roots) and a crown...total cost in Ireland €1,200. (I claimed about 500 back from the taxman)

BUT! I found out at the time that a heck of a lot of dentists were not part of that treatment benefit scheme, ie, they didn't want to be paid a set fee by the state for certain procedures.

Now they are wishing they had that income...like a lot of landlords turned their noses up at rent supplement folks, but are now desperate for them. I have NO SYMPATHY for the vastly overpaid "professions" in Ireland.

Solicitors in Germany have set fees BY LAW! They all charge the same and if they are found out overcharging they will be "struck off".

dunsandin

WHY DONT YA FECK OFF TO GERMANY THEN IF ITS SO GREAT>LOL:D

I-Shot-Jr

dunsandin wrote: »

WHY DONT YA FECK OFF TO GERMANY THEN IF ITS SO GREAT>LOL:D

I know I would if I spoke German!

amen

if he is really closing due to the cutbacks then he should publish his accounts for the last few years and lets see what
1: he was paying him self as a dentist including pension provision
2: any monies he was drawing as the director/partner etc

dunsandin

I-Shot-Jr wrote: »

I know I would if I spoke German!

you could bunk up at murphs in Berlin - its a savage city.

Callan57

The professions have been ripping off this country for years ... I have no sympathy for them.
A dentist recently quoted me 2,000 for some work & when I asked him if he was joking his response was 'Do I look like I'm joking' so I asked him if I looked like a fool? Needless to say I walked & will be checking out Budapest & Belfast.

KindOfIrish

dunsandin wrote: »

WHY DONT YA FECK OFF TO GERMANY THEN IF ITS SO GREAT>LOL:D

All clever Irish people have fecked off already!

KindOfIrish

Callan57 wrote: »

The professions have been ripping off this country for years ... I have no sympathy for them.
A dentist recently quoted me 2,000 for some work & when I asked him if he was joking his response was 'Do I look like I'm joking' so I asked him if I looked like a fool? Needless to say I walked & will be checking out Budapest & Belfast.

Budapest is the place! Check in a 5* Hotel, enjoy good food and drink, weather, Danube, do your dental work and it will be less than 2000 anyway!

nadir

As a person employed in the private sector, I've been paying a fortune for dental treatment (several thousand euro) over the past 6 years, for me and my dependent. It's not covered by VHI and neither of us qualify for any state help. Dentists & Doctors fees have been a major drag financially, especially considering the poor quality I've generally received!
I think it would be highly beneficial for me(and probably others of my ilk) if many more dentists/doctors practices went out of business as it would surely instill some decent competition which would normalize prices and increase quality of service.

dunsandin

Yeah, missus just informed me of somthing I'd forgotten - one of my kids needed a lot of work done a few years ago and the bill was €6500, so maybe there is a point to all this.:o She reckoned I was talking b0ll0x, so I will defer to her higher wisdom. Wouldn't be the first time.:o I was just going with the first figure of €600 that I saw and thinking back on todays job I did. And the Germany bit was a joke, I worked there for a year and loved it, would go in the morning if I thought I could make a living. So, anyway, down with dentists, feckin rip off merchants................. solicitors are not much better. Not a huge fan of them, either. Right, thats enough backpedalling for one evening.

BehindTheScenes

He needs to model his business practice on these guys.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dentist-paid-euro577000-by-state-2269846.html

Anyone earning €200,000 in a year is doing grand.

Chris_5339762

When most of the population gets some government grant for something the prices rocket because well, you would put the price up if you were running that business and people could get grants for it.

SkepticOne

dunsandin wrote: »

Surely the title of the thread is the fundamental issue -why I am closing my practice-??? If this guy was ripping the p1s5 with his clients, surely the thread would be called "why I am having to reduce my prices"???
I know €600 for 3 hours sounds like a rip-off, but I can kinda sympathise. To rent even a room in a shared dental practice is a SERIOUSLY expensive business. The dental nurse is not on the minimum wage, and like aero-spares, if you tack the word "Dental-" onto a product or tool, it starts to get very pricey.

I know this has been retracted somewhat but the costs you mention here are those generated by dental and related professions. A dental nurse, for example, in the boom time might be able to charge an arm and a leg but is that still appropriate in an economic crisis? Also the room in a dental practice may be expensive but that is because another dentist has decided to make it that way. Unfortunately all these costs need to be adjusted to reflect the new reality otherwise people are going to continue going up North and further afield for dental treatment.

wowa

GPs will likely go the same road in time. The system is shot and has become unworkable for many GPs. If they don't have a list they rely on private folk. If they do have a list it's reimbursement is a joke! Many conditions are needing many visits per year and patients aren't prepared to pay to address the 'silent killers'- blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes. The litigation- second now only to US, has also ensured GPs are now just a referral service to the over paid specialists- highest in the world for several specialties. After all, its what the patient expects and if they don't get it, expect a lawyers letter fired your way, blame or no blame. The public hospitals are fit to explode (in Cork anyway) but who does this arrangement serve- thats right, the specialists who cream off the increasing number of patients who say feck it with this, I'll pay whatever it takes to avoid sitting in a corridor for 16 hours! The country is a feckin' joke!!

As for the whingers who begrudge the earnings of GPs/dentists, you probably weren't complaining when you were earning the equivalent for laying some flooring, fixing a leak or plastering walls!

johnnyskeleton

On dentistry, if you pay certain stamps you get a little bit of dentistry for free (but again not S class, even though the self employed pay nearly as much as the employed (more if you are earning less than minimum wage and self employed) and there's talk of the self emloyed paying the same as workers).

However, if you are on a medical card:

Medical card holders are legally entitled to more extensive dental, ophthalmic and aural services from the Health Service Executive (HSE) but, in practice, the availability of these services varies from area to area

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/DentalOpticalAndHearingBenefits/Pages/Dental.aspx

So in Ireland if you are self employed you can go swing. If you are employed you get a little bit of benefit, but if you are unemployed and/or a medical card holder you get gold star service. I think its something like 4 check ups per year plus any required work, which is more than even the richest employed/self employed can realistically afford.

SkepticOne

wowa wrote: »

As for the whingers who begrudge the earnings of GPs/dentists, you probably weren't complaining when you were earning the equivalent for laying some flooring, fixing a leak or plastering walls!

I'm not sure you are gaining much sympathy for your plight with the above paragraph.

As a student I paid 600 euro for 3 fillings a year ago. I got one done one day which was 150+50 consultancy. So I got two done the next time thinking I'd save 50 and they just charged me double consultancy..

I got sent a letter recently that I'm due a checkup. My teeth would want to be falling out by the time I can afford to go back.

jimmycrackcorm

Although I have a well-paid job, my teeth are in a poor state because dental care is prohibitively expensive. When you consider how many dentist we have compared to eye / ear / elbow specialists, then you have to wonder why it isn't more of a commodity service.

The truth in reality is that dentistry has been pushed forward to be a premium service and the costs have risen to match the perception. The same happened with pharmacists as I recall a colleagues daughter straight out of college being offerd a job in a Galway pharmacy with a salary of €55k.

Granted that people in these professions have studied a lot but their expectations are of a very lucrative career and not as a service. I'd love to see a detailed analysis of the costs compared to somewhere such as Bulgaria.

Why does a dental nurse cost more than a retail shop assistant ?
Why are materials more expensive than importing them from another EU country e.g.g Bulgaria - surely an xray machine there costs much the same as here (no business vat and all that).

jimmycrackcorm

wowa wrote: »

As for the whingers who begrudge the earnings of GPs/dentists, you probably weren't complaining when you were earning the equivalent for laying some flooring, fixing a leak or plastering walls!

Most of these people have taken enormous paycuts since then - has that happened to many GP's / Dentists?

andydrew

I think a major symptom of why Dentists overcharge is the same as for many professions within our Island... School leavers who are high achievers academically choose these professions based on the basis that they can and they then qualify feeling as the intellectual elite they merit the top salaries...So many of the routine tasks undertaken on a daily basis could be undertaken by assistants but due to our legal system combined with a "SUE NATION" mentality of the population this can never be achieved. Rectifying this is I believe the answer none the less.

TheInquisitor

amen wrote: »

if he is really closing due to the cutbacks then he should publish his accounts for the last few years and lets see what
1: he was paying him self as a dentist including pension provision
2: any monies he was drawing as the director/partner etc

Just requested a set of his accounts. Shall be interesting to see how he did for the last period

Bjorn Bored.

Sorry but dentists in the south are ROBBING BSTRDS!

My wife had a tooth that cracked so she went to the dentist who charged her 95 euro for a TEMPROARY FILLING.

He told her to come back in 3mths time where upon he charged her another

95 euro for the permanent one, ROBBING BSTRD!

I decided to get my dental work in Newry which worked out at 50% cheaper

than down here, amongst my dental work I had to get a temprorary filling

NO CHARGE, because when it came to putting the permanent filling in 3 mths later,I would then be charged a total of 45 pounds for both the temp and the permanent filling,when i asked my lovely reasonable northern dentist why i wasnt being charged twice for this,he laughed saying it was only fair as a temp filling is not nearly as much work as a permanent.

When I told him the way the boyos down the south like to charge for it his exact words were

ROBBING BSTRDS!!.

TheInquisitor

Lads to be fair his accounts are fairly shocking for end 2007 he owed the bank E4310 and had in his P&L account an accumulated E1335.

At the end 2008 he owed the bank 11847 and had -104 in the P&L account.

Unfortunately you can't see his P&L account which would show drawings etc but his business has been failing since at least 2006 when he should have been pulling serious money in...

Maybe he's just a bad businessman. Although saying that they did buy a vehicle during 2007 for 21k. (Thats himself and the wife who was company secretary)

TheInquisitor

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Lads to be fair his accounts are fairly shocking for end 2007 he owed the bank E4310 and had in his P&L account an accumulated E1335.

At the end 2008 he owed the bank 11847 and had -104 in the P&L account.

Unfortunately you can't see his P&L account which would show drawings etc but his business has been failing since at least 2006 when he should have been pulling serious money in...

Maybe he's just a bad businessman. Although saying that they did buy a vehicle during 2007 for 21k. (Thats himself and the wife who was company secretary)

So basically government policy has nothing to do with why he is out of business, thereby making the article one big lie.

I'm shocked.

TheInquisitor

Exactly. More like the final nail in the coffin. 10 years and his business was worth nothing at year 8

IrishTonyO

I went to Budapest 2 years ago and paid €8,000 for work that
i was quoted over €40,000 in Ireland. The €8,000 included my flights and hotel for 2 weeks and all expenses

wowa

SkepticOne wrote: »

I'm not sure you are gaining much sympathy for your plight with the above paragraph.

I don't need sympathy nor was I looking for it on behalf of Irish GPs. Many are likely happy but I am a GP in Canada now having seen the light 3 yrs ago.

I just think the Irish people's understanding of their medical system is unfortunately blinkered ie, specialist= best. Actually, specialist= most expensive and most inefficient and everyone pays for this through over inflated premiums. Either that, or the least well off just don't bother and knock 10years off their life expectancy.

wowa

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Most of these people have taken enormous paycuts since then - has that happened to many GP's / Dentists?

Yes it has- GPs anyway. And I don't thinkthe OP is doing too well either. HSE payment for lists has been cut to the extent that clinics relying on this form of service have had to close. The private GPs have obviously taken a cut- their waiting rooms are empty in many cases.

Cookie_Monster

maybe I'm just lucky but I've never been ripped off for dental work. Never paid more than 30 for a filling (white ones) and always had checkups covered. (can you tell I haven't gone recently )

paid 300 quid to have wisdom teeth taken out but thats just cos I didn't want to wait for a slot and got it done by a private guy outside the PRSI scheme (even still I got much of that back by claiming) - though it's so long ago now I can't really remember

dan_d

While I am sorry that this man had to close his practice, it's very hard to have sympathy, given his career. I have a relative who got very sudden tooth pain while away in France. After a day or two it got so bad that he had to go to a dentist.He literally walked into the surgery, got in to see the dentist who examined him, told him he had a root canal problem and would have to have the appropriate treatment, did the Xrays on the spot and carried out the procedure on the spot. And he was then charged about 40eur for the whole thing.

That left my jaw on the ground! Over here, you'd have to wait a good fortnight for an appointment (with my dentist, anyway), go in to be told what the problem was, go back in for Xrays, and then back in again for the treatment. Each trip would cost a minimum of 60eur, and I'm not sure what the cost of root canals are these days, but I'm pretty sure they're in the hundreds.

This man is essentially saying he closed his practice because the Government stopped making up the shortfall. Of course, you can't charge patients a few hundred for a basic check up, but 60eur with the Gov making up the shortfall generates a nice income. His accounts may have been overdrawn - one would question was he living a lifestyle beyond his means, and when things started to bite (scuse the pun), he kept living the lifestyle, instead of living within his means.

I just can't have sympathy for dentists/GPs/Consultants of any shape or form/orthodontists, etc. These careers, as far as I'm concerned, as a license to print money. And I know there are people out there that will say "welll you should have done one of those". Not the point. The point is that they get away with charging ridiculous fees, under the auspices of the so-called "free" health system.There should be a lot more regulation out there - either you're a private or public practitioner, and no in-between, with prices in line depending on which you chose. And if you're private, you run your business out of your own premises, with your own insurances. The system that operates at the moment is completely ridiculous. I could name a list of countries in Europe, Canada etc, where health treatment is about 10eur per appointment, and prescriptions are far less than they are here.

Oscar K

I'm really sort thsi is a little bit off the point but just wondering is €3500 about the norm for braces. (going to me on for 18-24mths) Again sorry for taking it a little bit off the topic just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off. Reading the above stories makes me a bit sceptical now.

Tim Robbins

keithclancy wrote: »

I went to one dentist who wanted me to pay 40 quid on top of the PRSI contributions and went to a different one who didnt charge anything extra.

I dont think thats the reason, I think the Dentists have just become accustomed to a certain lifestyle and can't go back

i.e. Mercedes, 400k house, second house down by the sea, another one rented out to students etc etc.

Sounds like the pharmacists alright. Remember they were telling us all that they were going to be on the breadline. The reality is for most pharmacists they have probably just gone from an easy 100K guarenteed a year to 80K where they have to work a bit harder.

Saadyst

Oscar K wrote: »

I'm really sort thsi is a little bit off the point but just wondering is €3500 about the norm for braces. (going to me on for 18-24mths) Again sorry for taking it a little bit off the topic just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off. Reading the above stories makes me a bit sceptical now.

Yes... sounds reasonable. It'd cost you around £2500 (at the low end) and up for the equivalent in Scotland. Convert to Euro and it's not that far off... allowing for differences in treatment plan etc.

Btw I'm surprised no-one has made comment on the fact that PRSI for dentistry has been virtually elminated. He makes a good point when he asks why you are paying your PRSI if there's no subsidy. If his facts are correct that 1€ spent is 3€ saved, then I'd want to understand why it's been scrapped.

the_syco

nadir wrote: »

I think it would be highly beneficial for me(and probably others of my ilk) if many more dentists/doctors practices went out of business as it would surely instill some decent competition which would normalize prices and increase quality of service.

F**KING LOL. Seriously. You think that if there were less competition, that prices would go down? Seriously? What planet do you live on?

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'd love to see a detailed analysis of the costs compared to somewhere such as Bulgaria.

I wonder how little red tape and hoops you'd have to jump through in Bulgaria. I also wonder how much insurance is?

=-=

I think my own dentist charged me under €200 for three fillings. He has my PRSI number, and I think as I pay PRSI, some of that can be claimed by the him. There is often a constant flow of people into there, and I think another dentist works there, but not sure (it's another door people go into). He works from 6am or 7am ("ah, but that's when I would go fishing for salmon" he often says) to about 3pm, which is cool, because I have often being able to go into him before I start work at 8am.

I shudder to think how much insurance would cost for dentists, though.

Tipp Man

I would be interested to know the general feeling of what people believe a GP, a dentist, and a pharmacist should be earning at the age of 40 say

what kinds of salary expectations to the general public have for these professions with 10-15 years experience??

Mad Benny

Tipp Man wrote: »

I would be interested to know the general feeling of what people believe a GP, a dentist, and a pharmacist should be earning at the age of 40 say

what kinds of salary expectations to the general public have for these professions with 10-15 years experience??

GP who works 9am to 5pm Mon-Fri
€120k

Dentist who works 9am to 5pm Mon-Fri
€100k

Pharmacist who works 9am to 5pm Mon-Fri
€85k

Mad Benny

wowa wrote: »

As for the whingers who begrudge the earnings of GPs/dentists, you probably weren't complaining when you were earning the equivalent for laying some flooring, fixing a leak or plastering walls!

I don't begrudge the earnings of GPs, dentists or any other profession for that matter.

I do however begrudge the price I have to pay for dentists and GPs. €60 for a five minute consultation at my GP and as I said in my original post €600 for a three hour appointment at the dentist.

That's €200 per hour for the dentist and €360 an hour for a GP (if they see 6 an hour).

nadir

dan_d wrote: »

While I am sorry that this man had to close his practice, it's very hard to have sympathy, given his career. I have a relative who got very sudden tooth pain while away in France. After a day or two it got so bad that he had to go to a dentist.He literally walked into the surgery, got in to see the dentist who examined him, told him he had a root canal problem and would have to have the appropriate treatment, did the Xrays on the spot and carried out the procedure on the spot. And he was then charged about 40eur for the whole thing..

Yeah, France has pretty much the best healthcare in the world, other countries though are just as good. I had similar experiences in Japan also.

the_syco wrote: »

F**KING LOL. Seriously. You think that if there were less competition, that prices would go down? Seriously? What planet do you live on?

eh! no I didn't say 'less competition', you did.
I'm thinking if dentists cant afford to stay open then they must lower their costs and prices to be more competitive.
large medical cartel != competition.

gurramok

Its a money racket alright and backwards. If you have VHI etc, you can claim at last count I think it was 30quid, so about half. You pay up front for health insurance of which some of it goes to the GP and also pay up front out of your own cash for the rest to the GP.

What does this mean? Irish healthcare is an American style money racket for all those involved...GP's, Consultants, Hospitals etc. The prinicple of providing care morally without charging extortionist prices is lost on this sector.

gurramok

Its a money racket alright and backwards. If you have VHI etc, you can claim at last count I think it was 30quid, so about half. You pay up front for health insurance of which some of it goes to the GP and also pay up front out of your own cash for the rest to the GP.

What does this mean? Irish healthcare is an American style money racket for all those involved...GP's, Consultants, Hospitals etc. The prinicple of providing care morally without charging extortionist prices is lost on this sector.

Tim Robbins

Tipp Man wrote: »

I would be interested to know the general feeling of what people believe a GP, a dentist, and a pharmacist should be earning at the age of 40 say

what kinds of salary expectations to the general public have for these professions with 10-15 years experience??

Should these things not be resolved by supply and demand (and open competition) like everything else?

If the you don't want to insulate these roles from market economics, I'd favour making them public contracts and paid for by the state. I'd pay them EU averages. And let's say EU averages didn't exist, I'd say:

GP - 150K. Reason - they need to be very bright, years of study and deal with all sorts of cr*p.

Dentist - 75K. Don't have to deal with as much cr*p as GPs. Only need expertise in one are of medicine. If you had ten years experience and worked in IT or science you'd get less. The only reason I think Dentists should get more is because part of their job is gross.

Pharmacist - 55K. Reason - I see working as a scientist as more demanding. In those roles, you have deadlines, performance rules etc.