Do Alco's And Junkies Have Free Passes for the Luas ? In Dublin

vandammaged

Just wondering I was walking too to heauton station and I mean about 10 of them were running across the heauton bridge to get the Luas shouting hold the Luas.

They got on no bother to them and no tickets nothing.

I get the Luas into town a lot as do a lot of people coming from work but from Heauton to abbey street and a nightmare sometimes there is one carriage full of them

And one day one of them offering his lollpop too a tourist. That one i seen happen one day ahhh.

Is this far to the paying customer ?

How do they deal with this problem in other country's ?

-Chris-

No, they don't. Everyone has to pay for ta ticket on the Luas.

Enforcement is the issue here.

Cookie_Monster

vandammaged wrote: »

How do they deal with this problem in other country's ?

they stand up to them, **** them off trains and arrest them.

not even the Luas staff deal with these people for having no ticket, they just ignore them unless the security are there also :mad:

robd

-Chris- wrote: »

No, they don't. Everyone has to pay for ta ticket on the Luas.

Enforcement is the issue here.

There's a rather large thread on this already
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055962356

Chris, what you're saying is not true.

Junkie's and Wino's if assessed as having a disability (NOTE: I don't agree with this) are allocated a Social Welfare Free Travel Pass. The pass is paper and apparently extremely easy to forge. Some have a buddy pass, but most do not. They bring a buddy anyway and often split the id card and the travel pass, thus another person can use the pass while they use the id card. They are simply not tackled by staff or Gardai who appear to be totally intimidated by them. There's rumored to be > 600,000 total free travel passes in circulation. Do the maths on how how a % of total users that is. NOTE: Those with real disabilities should 100% be given travel passes.

So there are a number of problems here:

1. Should Junkies/Winos be issued a free travel pass in the first place considering they intimidate and put off fare going passengers? No.
2. The passes need to be replaced with proper credit card style, non-forgable, combined id/pass smart cards.
3. This needs to be enforced. The mentality of going for the easy fines on the green line with more respectably clientele need to stop.
4. The red line needs to be returned to fare-paying and respectable travel pass holders.

devnull

Agree totally, the paper passes are too easy to be abused, they need to be replaced with either smartcards, or proper ID badges that can be checked for authenticity, the current system is FAR too easy to abuse with fake passes.

Oliver1985

Most Junkies have travel passes because they have a "disability" !!!!
Jervis Luas stop is where they normally hang out!!:mad:

-Chris-

robd wrote: »

Chris, what you're saying is not true.

Apologies, I read the OP as "I see junkies and winos getting on the Luas without a valid ticket and not being confronted on it, how is this fair?".

I should have said everyone has to have a valid ticket/pass for the Luas, rather than everyone has to pay for one.


I still believe enforcement is the issue.

dermo88

I know what kind of travel pass I'd like to give a junkie. One way, going to somewhere secret in Eastern Europe. in a nice freight train, hauled by a 2-10-0 Steam locomotive, produced by a certain country with an established history of heavy engineering capabilities.

Cookie_Monster

dermo88 wrote: »

I know what kind of travel pass I'd like to give a junkie. One way, going to somewhere secret in Eastern Europe. in a nice freight train, hauled by a 2-10-0 Steam locomotive, produced by a certain country with an established history of heavy engineering capabilities.

that'd be gas alright :pac:

AlekSmart

Accurate summation from Robd....J

unkie's and Wino's if assessed as having a disability (NOTE: I don't agree with this) are allocated a Social Welfare Free Travel Pass. The pass is paper and apparently extremely easy to forge. Some have a buddy pass, but most do not. They bring a buddy anyway and often split the id card and the travel pass, thus another person can use the pass while they use the id card. They are simply not tackled by staff or Gardai who appear to be totally intimidated by them. There's rumored to be > 600,000 total free travel passes in circulation. Do the maths on how how a % of total users that is. NOTE: Those with real disabilities should 100% be given travel passes

.

To which I would add the rather incredible aspect that,once issued,the Free Travel Scheme Pass is perpetual,with no requirement to renew or reapply on a regular basis...it`s like marriage....Forever.

There is a stipulation on the holder to inform the Dept of Social Protection should the individuals circumstances change,and it would be interesting to see the DSP office dealing with such information....I`m seeing a version of the Carlsberg TV ad with the telephone ringing in an empty cobweb hung office.....:(

The continuing lack of appreciation of what is now regarded as an "Entitlement" is without doubt going to sink this very desireable system,but who cares..? ...Nobody ,it seems !! :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

Agree totally, the paper passes are too easy to be abused, they need to be replaced with either smartcards, or proper ID badges that can be checked for authenticity, the current system is FAR too easy to abuse with fake passes.

and the process needs to be tightened up with the only id accepted when obtaining the photopass being passport or driving licence or garda id as currently you could get another persons photopass by bringing their pps card or birth cert and one of their household bills.

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Most Junkies have travel passes because they have a "disability" !!!!
Jervis Luas stop is where they normally hang out!!:mad:

dont forget the sdealers on abby street hiding behind the ticket machines, and they should only have the free travel if they behave but there is no process to remove a pass from someone that is continously disrupting transport systems whether by drinking on trains busses etc or hanging around stops begging etc etc

dermo88 wrote: »

I know what kind of travel pass I'd like to give a junkie. One way, going to somewhere secret in Eastern Europe. in a nice freight train, hauled by a 2-10-0 Steam locomotive, produced by a certain country with an established history of heavy engineering capabilities.

a tour of some of the worlds largest tractor factories perhaps?

dermo88

I'll leave it to your fertile imagination foggy_lad. Its best in these sensitive overly politically correct times.

ILA

No, as far as I'm aware, the LUAS has to be paid. Obviously the chance their arms and get on, but there's never any checkers. STT rail security lads were on one evening last month and they just let the junkies get off at their stops even though they'd no tickets when they'd got on at my stop.

They get free right of passage on Dublin Bus and other public providers due to their Disability Badge which can be availed of by drug addicts, alcholics, depressed persons, as well as the actually physically disabled.

foggy_lad

ILA wrote: »

No, as far as I'm aware, the LUAS has to be paid. Obviously the chance their arms and get on, but there's never any checkers. STT rail security lads were on one evening last month and they just let the junkies get off at their stops even though they'd no tickets when they'd got on at my stop.

They get free right of passage on Dublin Bus and other public providers due to their Disability Badge which can be availed of by drug addicts, alcholics, depressed persons, as well as the actually physically disabled.

depression can be just as debilitating or worse as losing mobility or sight. and as stated before no alcoholic or drug addict has ever been issues any free travel pass for being an alcoholic or drug addict, most have underlying mental illnesses which have led them into their addictions which they already had free travel for.

maybe the list of proscribed illnesses should be revised to exclude mental illness? and then a few years later we decide to lock those people back up behing 20ft high walls in assylums? and then we target the physically disabled or those with dyslexia or behavioural issues or those who have been left mentally disabled after car crashes etc?

there are ways to deal with these people and the first thing is for all CIE staff to not accept any pass that is not legible in fact confiscate it and the department should send out a new pass if the holder is genuinely entitled to it!,

then only passes which have a photo pass if the persons address is in the specified city areas of dublin waterford limerick cork galway, then if there is any problem do what most do in the case of a paying passenger, call the guards or just stop the buss or tram untill they get off!

they are only getting away with all this because transport staff are letting them travel!

AlekSmart

There are ways to deal with these people and the first thing is for all CIE staff to not accept any pass that is not legible in fact confiscate it and the department should send out a new pass if the holder is genuinely entitled to it!,

Yes indeed Foggy_Lad,however any driver who adopts this course of action,perfectly reasonable IMO,will most likely be the subject of a disciplinary hearing concerning his "approach".

Generally if a driver pursues such a line,there will always be some other individual who,having seen elements of the event,will decide that the Driver has behaved abominably etc and file an official complaint....this has occurred on so many occasions.

In addition,the Department of Social Protection appears to have no policy to deal with reported misuse or fraudulent use of the Free Pass which they provide under a certain amount of T`s and C`s which nobody appears to read...even though every recipient signs for the document as having done just that !!

gurramok

Its a funny one alright. Alot of the drug clinics are on the Luas line hence attracts junkies in swarms who travel to and fro the suburbs. The paying commuter has to endure these people every day and what happens is that those paying commuters feel intimidated and go to alternate forms of transport.
To sum up, the Luas will end up losing alot of money due to the present situation, an own goal for them(and govt) not to do anything about it.

Oliver1985

gurramok wrote: »

Its a funny one alright. Alot of the drug clinics are on the Luas line hence attracts junkies in swarms who travel to and fro the suburbs. The paying commuter has to endure these people every day and what happens is that those paying commuters feel intimidated and go to alternate forms of transport.
To sum up, the Luas will end up losing alot of money due to the present situation, an own goal for them(and govt) not to do anything about it.

Yep your right there and god only knows what tourists think!!!

AlekSmart

The paying commuter has to endure these people every day and what happens is that those paying commuters feel intimidated and go to alternate forms of transport.
To sum up, the Luas will end up losing alot of money due to the present situation, an own goal for them(and govt) not to do anything about it.

Herein Gurramok is the real end-game for our Public Transport systems in general.

In the times of plenty our Societal Systems were geared towards recognizing the "needs" of the various marginalized groupings,of which substance abusers would be but one.

In those times the overriding principle was to keep these groups "sweet" and thus resulted in a fairly comprehensive array of social supports available by right or "entitlement".

The issue is,of course,far wider than a Free Travel Pass,as it encompasses other schemes such as Private Rented Accomodation,Medical Cards,Childrens support payments and others.

What we now have is a sizeable number of citizens,increasing daily,with very definite ideas on what they regard as services which they can avail of for free and with an equally highly developed disregard for those services.

Whilst we are now seeing a belated sense of outrage being expressed by the "Paying Classes" of Luas customer,the reality is that Dublin Bus had passed along this road over two decades ago and as a result developed a public perception of many of it`s services as dangerous or only utilizable during daylight hours.

It`s a moot point as to whether the RPA,as the owner of Luas,and Veolia as the operator actually sing from the same hymn sheet,as their perspectives may be quite different..it will not,for example,be RPA staff who have to clean up the detritous of Drug Abuse from beneath the seating on a Tram.

We have ,in Ireland ,a long and blissfully happy tradition of disregarding the first signs of developing trouble in all manner of applications.
Equally we seem to devise and impliment strategies which continue this through even though the elements are collapsing all around us.

Luas is no different to the rest...We have a choice to make,granted not an easy one or a Politically Correct one, but one which has to be made nonetheless....any takers ? :mad:

-Chris-

Whether there's a travel card involved or not, is there not an ability for the transport provider to refuse access to anyone who is "intoxicated" in any way or who could be perceived to be a threat to the other users of the service?

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

depression can be just as debilitating or worse as losing mobility or sight. and as stated before no alcoholic or drug addict has ever been issues any free travel pass for being an alcoholic or drug addict, most have underlying mental illnesses which have led them into their addictions which they already had free travel for.

maybe the list of proscribed illnesses should be revised to exclude mental illness? and then a few years later we decide to lock those people back up behing 20ft high walls in assylums? and then we target the physically disabled or those with dyslexia or behavioural issues or those who have been left mentally disabled after car crashes etc?

there are ways to deal with these people and the first thing is for all CIE staff to not accept any pass that is not legible in fact confiscate it and the department should send out a new pass if the holder is genuinely entitled to it!,

then only passes which have a photo pass if the persons address is in the specified city areas of dublin waterford limerick cork galway, then if there is any problem do what most do in the case of a paying passenger, call the guards or just stop the buss or tram untill they get off!

they are only getting away with all this because transport staff are letting them travel!

Interesting that your fixation on all the woes and awfulness of CIE has managed to turn a discussion on the access of alcos/junkies onto the Luas into yet another rant against CIE, you do know the Luas is not owned or operated by CIE don't you?

-Chris-

It' a fair point!!

AlekSmart

And from that is there not an ability for the transport provider to refuse access to anyone who is "intoxicated" in any way or who could be perceived to be a threat to the other users of the service?

Absolutely Chris...
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Passenger-Behaviour/

Specifically from that.....

Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

followed by.....

No passenger who, in the opinion of an authorised person, is in a state of intoxication or otherwise in an unfit or improper condition shall board or remain on the vehicle.

The Dublin Bus Bye-Laws give substantial legal powers to the Company`s servants to control the behaviour of passengers.

However the effective implimentation of such Bye-Laws does require back-up,both physical and administrative.
The latter element is particularly lacking in both the DB and Veolia context at issue here.

Busdrivers would be reluctant to exercise their Bye-Law authority simply due to the fallout which would follow,with a desk-bound manager taking a somewhat different view a week later after "reviewing" the incident.

I have had incidents where I refused blind drunk individuals entry only to be roundly berated by other passengers sitting at the back of the bus for being uncaring and obnoxious (The individual concerned had on previous occasion happily relieved himself in the standing area,so I was not prepared to enter into on-street negotiations on his right to travel).

My thinking is that before we expect our customers to show regard we must be seen to enforce the regulations for the beneift of ALL our customer base,rather than just the needy and deserving one`s :rolleyes:

BenShermin

-Chris- wrote: »

Whether there's a travel card involved or not, is there not an ability for the transport provider to refuse access to anyone who is "intoxicated" in any way or who could be perceived to be a threat to the other users of the service?

Fair point, however could there be discrimination suits brought up over this;).

For example, Dublin Bus transport thousands of "intoxicated" individuals home every weekend at €5 a pop via their nitelink services, however they won't allow a needy junkie a free journey to a methadone clinic. The left wing liberal do-gooders will have a field day and the judge ferried between South East Dublin and the courts by chauffeur driven Merc will be oblivious to the real situation.

Where does the humble fare paying Joseph Soap like me contact the inventor of Political Correctness, I'd like to sue him for infringing my rights to a safe public transport journey. Oh that's right, he doesn't talk to law abiding white Irish males aged 18 to 65, I forgot about that.

foggy_lad

In this thread I direct my criticism towards all transport operators and their employees who are the front line against all these junkies drunks etc

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Interesting that your fixation on all the woes and awfulness of CIE has managed to turn a discussion on the access of alcos/junkies onto the Luas into yet another rant against CIE, you do know the Luas is not owned or operated by CIE don't you?

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

In this thread I direct my criticism towards all transport operators and their employees who are the front line against all these junkies drunks etc

well then write that then - CIE and RPA are not synonyms.

SHOVELLER

Besides free transport unfortunately they are also entitled to unemployment assistance:

"Drug Rehabilitation Courses: A person participating in a recognised drug/alcohol rehabilitation programme may be deemed to be available for work".

IMO an absolute farce but its miniscule in the overall social welfare mess in this country.

Fair play to the Lord Mayor for saying what everyone is thinking.

vandammaged

Foggly ladd you don't even live in dublin.

foggy_lad wrote: »

and the process needs to be tightened up with the only id accepted when obtaining the photopass being passport or driving licence or garda id as currently you could get another persons photopass by bringing their pps card or birth cert and one of their household bills.

dont forget the sdealers on abby street hiding behind the ticket machines, and they should only have the free travel if they behave but there is no process to remove a pass from someone that is continously disrupting transport systems whether by drinking on trains busses etc or hanging around stops begging etc etc

a tour of some of the worlds largest tractor factories perhaps?

foggy_lad

vandammaged wrote: »

Foggly ladd you don't even live in dublin.

where I live has no real bearing on this. How often I might use the Luas has.

vandammaged

but saying that a bus only has one entrance and the driver wont let the junkie on at all.

with the Luas there are loads of doors.

The thing is there is so many and I mean loads get on and off from the f
Fatima mansions - Heauton station - Abbey st and then back and forward all day long.

BenShermin wrote: »

Fair point, however could there be discrimination suits brought up over this;).

For example, Dublin Bus transport thousands of "intoxicated" individuals home every weekend at €5 a pop via their nitelink services, however they won't allow a needy junkie a free journey to a methadone clinic. The left wing liberal do-gooders will have a field day and the judge ferried between South East Dublin and the courts by chauffeur driven Merc will be oblivious to the real situation.

Where does the humble fare paying Joseph Soap like me contact the inventor of Political Correctness, I'd like to sue him for infringing my rights to a safe public transport journey. Oh that's right, he doesn't talk to law abiding white Irish males aged 18 to 65, I forgot about that.

I-Shot-Jr

Is it seriously not high time we just cracked down on all abusers of the system, I can empathise for those that use the "disability" argument to a certain extent but really I think we should adopt a harder stance towards these people. I'm sick, absolutely sick, of being afraid of being mugged or worse. I've been hit a couple of times and didn't fight back as much as I should have because I thought those goons could have knives or mates waiting around. And Im just under 6 foot and not a small guy at all. Imagine how much worse the situation must be for more more vulnerable commuters.

It sickens me how much these people get away with.

mickydoomsux

I-Shot-Jr wrote: »

Is it seriously not high time we just cracked down on all abusers of the system, I can empathise for those that use the "disability" argument to a certain extent but really I think we should adopt a harder stance towards these people. I'm sick, absolutely sick, of being afraid of being mugged or worse. I've been hit a couple of times and didn't fight back as much as I should have because I thought those goons could have knives or mates waiting around. And Im just under 6 foot and not a small guy at all. Imagine how much worse the situation must be for more more vulnerable commuters.

It sickens me how much these people get away with.

While this is indeed a transport issue you are also touching on a major social issue as well.

We've made the scumbags and junkies into 'victims' in this country. Every time one of them does something wrong or is convicted of a crime you get the usual bleeding hearts coming out with the tired drivel of 'they're from a disadvantaged area' or 'they have a low level of education'. That's their fault, not mine.

Their areas are 'disadvantaged' because scumbags live there and have no pride in their property of respect for their neighbours. They're uneducated because they didn't avail of the free education we have in this country because they are too lazy.

I too am sick of living in fear of these people both in my private life and in my capacity as an employee of IE. I don't feel guilty for how these peoples lives turned out so why should i have to coddle them and treat them like they have some 'wrong' with them every time they cause hassle on a train or steal another passengers possesions?

The fact that most have free travel is insane and it shows what a nanny state we've turned into.

Gang of Gin

vandammaged wrote: »

Just wondering I was walking too to heauton station and I mean about 10 of them were running across the heauton bridge to get the Luas shouting hold the Luas.

They got on no bother to them and no tickets nothing.

I get the Luas into town a lot as do a lot of people coming from work but from Heauton to abbey street and a nightmare sometimes there is one carriage full of them

And one day one of them offering his lollpop too a tourist. That one i seen happen one day ahhh.

Is this far to the paying customer ?



How do they deal with this problem in other country's ?

Well that's just plain disgusting:pac:

vandammaged

I seat awake most nights wondering too myself what flavour that Lollipop was

Gang of Gin wrote: »

Well that's just plain disgusting:pac:

languagenerd

As far as I know, anyone who's on a methadone program gets a Free Travel pass so they can get to their methadone clinic every day.

What annoys me is that I see people with these passes who are clearly out of their head on the Luas late at night, when said clinics are not open. I'm all for helping people overcome drug addiction, but when junkies (who aren't sticking to their treatment) are terrifying and intimidating other passengers at night time, it's another story. Yes, they have the right to treatment and all that comes with it, but do we not also have the right to travel home safely?

I think if they're gonna give free travel so they can get their methadone, they should issue them Smartcards every week with enough money pre-loaded for two journeys a day max - to the clinic and back.

foggy_lad

languagenerd wrote: »

As far as I know, anyone who's on a methadone program gets a Free Travel pass so they can get to their methadone clinic every day.

What annoys me is that I see people with these passes who are clearly out of their head on the Luas late at night, when said clinics are not open. I'm all for helping people overcome drug addiction, but when junkies (who aren't sticking to their treatment) are terrifying and intimidating other passengers at night time, it's another story. Yes, they have the right to treatment and all that comes with it, but do we not also have the right to travel home safely?

I think if they're gonna give free travel so they can get their methadone, they should issue them Smartcards every week with enough money pre-loaded for two journeys a day max - to the clinic and back.

a better idea would be their own minibus with security.

Truff Puff

Alcoholism and drug addiction is an illness. These people if on disability allowance deserve a free travel pass as in my opinion the system is failing to provide adequate care, support and help for people with such conditions.

mickydoomsux

Truff Puff wrote: »

Alcoholism and drug addiction is an illness.

It isn't an illness, it's a weakness. People who call it an illness are just pandering.

These people if on disability allowance deserve a free travel pass as in my opinion the system is failing to provide adequate care, support and help for people with such conditions.

I'm all for actually disabled people getting passes but some smack head or drunk shouldn't get them because they only abuse them and cause trouble/steal on trains/buses/the LUAS, drive paying customers away and are violent and threatening to staff and passengers. It's not the systems or societies fault that they are they way they are. It's completely their own fault. We as a society need to stop feeling guilty that these people are how they are.

Cookie_Monster

Truff Puff wrote: »

Alcoholism and drug addiction is an illness.

no they're not and labelling them as such is an insult to anyone suffering from a real illness :mad:

syklops

This is slightly OT, but with regard to alcoholism, in my mind there is a big difference between the drunks you get on the luas and alcoholics. I am sure we all know people from our communities, if not our own families who are alcoholics, but manage their addiction, in some cases to the point that few people would even know they are alcoholics.

I also dont think that alcoholics should be put in the same category as drug addicts.

This is obviously, however, a debate for another thread.

Alcoholism and drug addiction is an illness. These people if on disability allowance deserve a free travel pass as in my opinion the system is failing to provide adequate care, support and help for people with such conditions.

Again maybe a bit off topic, but if drug addiction and alcohol are both illnesses, and in the same category, why is it that heroin addicts get free methadone from the state, but alcoholics dont get free alcohol?

Anyway, trying desperately to get back on topic, Why should they(addicts) get a free travel pass? What does it give them? Does taking the dart out to Bray for the day help them with either of their afflictions? In the majority of cases probably not. It does make it easier for them to score what they need, as they have free reign over the entire city.

Surely these people should be encouraged to stay at home, not be encouraged to roam around the streets. If they need to go down to the methadone clinic, why arent they given a one day return ticket, so they can get to the clinic the day that it opens, and get home again safely.

Why is it that people on the dole(job seekers) aren't given free travel so they can go down the dole office to get their dole, which in a lot of cases is the money they are going to feed their families with, but drug addicts are given free travel so they can collect their meth?

mickydoomsux

syklops wrote: »

If they need to go down to the methadone clinic, why arent they given a one day return ticket, so they can get to the clinic the day that it opens, and get home again safely.

Exactly. They should be given a single dated HSE travel warrant for their next visit during their current visit.

They don't deserve free travel passes.

Oliver1985

With all the cuts back expected in the budget could this be one of them?

spurious

Oliver1985 wrote: »

With all the cuts back expected in the budget could this be one of them?

Not at all - it's far easier hit special needs kids and their classroom assistance.

mickydoomsux

spurious wrote: »

Not at all - it's far easier hit special needs kids and their classroom assistance.

Or just the regular tax payer. Or small business owners.

But not the sector of society that takes so much but contributes nothing to the pot. We really are just wrong-headed in this country.

spurious

I think while everyone would sympathise with someone suffering from an addiction (there but for the grace etc.) it's the apparent lack of any attempt or effort to kick the habit is what galls people.

Likewise the 19 yr old lying in bed, scratching his balls til his Ma brings him his fags and paper - there is unemployed and there is lazy bastard.

foggy_lad

these addicts are not your common or garden variety though as most of them have serious mental illneses for which they are on "serious" medication most of which can only be dispensed in special clinics by the HSE.

many are on sleeping tablets like Flunitrazepam(Rohypnol) and other very strong sedatives which knock them out almost completly but when mixed with alcohol leave the user able to get about but in a seemingly drunken stupor. and the tablets they dont use can be sold on the street. they congregate around luas stops due to others being there like drug addicts who will buy their tablets and also most have been to collect their disability or invalidity pensions or have been to the clinic and are on the way home but they will try to make a few euro begging if they think they will get away with it!

-Chris-

@no one in particular:

Can we make sure to keep this discussion in the context of Commuting & Transport rather than discussing the general pros and cons of drug treatment strategies and other macro social ills?

Thanks

trellheim

What would be the impact in moving all transport passes [ including Season ] to a tag-on/tag-off model ?

Cookie_Monster

trellheim wrote: »

What would be the impact in moving all transport passes [ including Season ] to a tag-on/tag-off model ?

up roar from those "entitled" to them

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

up roar from those "entitled" to them

only from those seeking to abuse them!

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

only from those seeking to abuse them!

indeed, hence the ""

foggy_lad

Those that abuse both passes and our public transport are only a tiny percentage of those actually entitled that don't abuse their pass or the busses trains trams or staff!