Other peoples children....?

Fittle

So I saw another similar thread to my problem on here recently, and just thought I'd ask for similar advice.

My friend and I are pretty close - we met in primary school and both now have children around the same age, I was her bridesmaid and am godmother to one of her children.

We have a great relationship and are both a great support for each other, both emotionally and with childcare etc. Sometimes I think I'd be lost without her:)

But here's the problem. As our kids have gotten older, her three treat my little fella (8) very badly. It was fine when they were younger, and much more manageable - 2yr olds hitting or scratching other 2yr olds is something you can just about deal with. I'm far from a mother who believes that my child is perfect - but her children (particularly the youngest) are bullies. I have seen all of them kick/pinch/punch/slap my child on many, many occasions. I handle it generally by telling my lad he needs to toughen up and hit back, and by chastising the child as much as you can, in the presence of its parent, who doesn't chastise the child for the behaviour at all.
Last week, which was the tip of the iceberg as far as I'm concerned, the youngest child(6) scratched the face off him and he was actually bleeding. I saw the incident and yelled at her to stop, and she did. But my lad came in crying as he was very hurt.
My REAL problem however is how my friend deals with the issue - even that time, she just whispered to me 'Ill deal with her when you leave, as I don't like giving out to her in front of people' and she was allowed continue to play etc.
All of her children act very inappropriately in different situations - they have no friends outside their own family, don't mix very well with others and are generally allowed to run riot in their own home. My friend has a beautiful home, but the furniture is all ripped (leather suite), floors are scratched (with various sharp objects) and doors and walls have all been painted on (on purpose) as the years have gone on.

I really don't want to lose my friend as a friend, and I have told her, in a nice way, that I can't continue to allow her kids to treat my lad this way - she kind of smiles and says 'I know, they're brats!' but that's about as much as she does. My lad has now told me he never wants to see them again..and he means it.

Like I said, I'm far from a mother who thinks her son is perfect - but he's not aggressive, doesn't curse (so far!) and doesn't hit other kids with aggression...

Any of you been through similar and what did you do? Advice would be really appreciated.

silverharp

Can you manage things more to your suiting, invite the child that's closest in age to yours over but not the others and that should change the dynamic. You can meet your friend socially when the kids arent around.

Fittle

I have tried that, but unfortunately, even when I have arranged age appropriate stuff (bowling or quasar for example which might be for the older kids) she brings all three along.

She doesn't have much support with the kids apart from me - hubby is not great and her in laws (her own parents are deceased) aren't able for the kids at all....

So when I arrange sumhting, they all come along...

KittyeeTrix

Difficult position to be in Fittle and I can understand you wanting to be there for a fellow mom who is having a tough time but your main concern is your son......
You've tried to be reasonable with this lady but she doesn't seem to be taking you seriously so far.

Can you imagine what it must be like for your little lad seeing these kids arrive and him knowing the treatment he is going to receive?? I'd call a halt to the meeting up and meet her alone and explain again to her your concerns excactly as you have done here to us. Tell her it is unfair to your son for him to be subjected to this continually and it lies in her hands to either change the circumstances of yer meet ups or there can be no meet ups

Fittle

Thanks for that fluffy.

I have tried that. I have said it to her that my lad can't really cope with the way her kids treat him anymore. She just says 'I know..it's dreadful...'

I don't know if she has her head in the sand or what....but it's like she has just accepted that her kids are very badly behaved. She never gives out to them in front of anyone...says she always punishes them in private.

Perhaps its just me, but I always feel if I need to chastise my lad for something he's done in front of others (being cheeky to me in company for example) that its important I do in front of others, and that its important I do it there and then....so he sees the impact it's had on others....

KittyeeTrix

Well in that case it seems you really have no other option other than not allowing your son meet with her kids anymore. It's not fair to him that she allows her kids to mistreat him and not be chastised for it. If she doesn't see this, well then the problem is hers I'm afraid:)

Fittle

Yes I agree, I can't put him through this again.

But how to (nicely) tell her that he won't sleep over again etc....

I have a night out in two weeks and it's been planned (since august!) that he stays at her house...he genuinely doesn't want to, and wont stay there again.

So how do I say that those plans have been re-arranged etc? We have a nice 'set-up', particularly over christmas, where both of us have work stuff and nites out, and we mind each others kids (I mind hers in her house) and it works well in the sense that neither of us have to pay for babysitters. It's just assumed that we'll both 'back each other up' over xmas....
How do I (subtly) change this routine....?

silverharp

Fittle wrote: »

I have tried that, but unfortunately, even when I have arranged age appropriate stuff (bowling or quasar for example which might be for the older kids) she brings all three along.

She doesn't have much support with the kids apart from me - hubby is not great and her in laws (her own parents are deceased) aren't able for the kids at all....

So when I arrange sumhting, they all come along...

in that situation I'd invite the child over for a play date and pick up the child and drop them back. Same with the other activities, just say you are taking your son to where ever you are taking him and that he'd like to have x join him. If you are questioned on it , it's your son's idea. It's pretty normal in any case that your son would prefer to hang around with peers so he'll be happier.

Fittle

And I agree silverharp.


But somehow, this whole set-up has become me taking all three of her kids.

It's like we only want the middle guy (who is my sons friend) and it would be seen as an insult if we asked to take only him on a 'playdate' (a word I hate btw!!!)

I realise that I have probably allowed this situation to go on longer than was intended...but the playdates are all about giving each other a break, and she doesn't get a break unless I take all three. Having said that, I've probably only taken all three of them twice.....we mainly go to their house, which has become a nightmare.

So how can I differentiate between the friendship and the children's play date stuff, without it seeming insulting? She has already told me that after her youngest scraped the face off my son that day, she yelled at him for an hour and took his ds off him for another hour - which was her punishment of him.

But in my opinion, chastising the kid while we were there, for what he had done, would have had a much better impact - but then I can't tell others how to chastise their kids.

RedXIV

Being honest? sounds like your worrying too much about your friends feelings. She needs a wake up call. You trying to take the softly softly approach so you don't insult your friend is going to ensure nothing changes in that household. I know she is your friend and that its very handy to have a "free babysitter" but how could your heart not break when your child is adamant that he doesn't want to go back?

I'd distance myself in your shoes but I'd let her know exactly why. If she values the friendship, you can be sure she'll try to change something.

Nevyn

Sounds like she over whelmed and not coping well.
Has she done any parenting classes?
Could you have coffee/tea with her while the kids are in school or some evening when the kids are in bed and talk about it?
Explain that the drawning blood was the final straw and that your young lad doesn't want to be there and as a parent you can't put him in harms way.

If she doesnt' have other adults around to say when the kids are out of order and to help stiffen her reslove I can see how it's hard for her to push for standards.

Are there parenting classes in any of the local schools?

Fittle

No, she hasn't done any parenting classes and she wouldn't be open to them either. I discussed it with her a while ago (it was something I wanted to do myself) and she said she thinks they're 'useless'....

I'm at my wits end though. To whoever said shes availing of a free babysitting service, she's not. The childcare situation has worked both ways - but I can't see it working anymore. Only yesterday he said to me again that he never wants to go there again....he seems really upset by this last incident and I feel like such a dreadful mother for trying to figure out ways to keep seeing my friend, but not allowing him to see those kids.

I think she has her head in the sand to be honest. She does SEE what they do...she comments on it, but she doesn't chastise them at all and it just continues.

Big Bag of Chips

Fittle, think about what you're saying for a minute.. stand back and look at it objectively...

You don't want to hurt her feelings, so to spare her feelings you are willing to put your son in a position where you know he is going to be physically harmed.

I know that's a really rough and crude summary of the situation, but it is what it comes down to.

Your son can't stand up for himself, he needs you to do it for him. Her children have no friends. She has no support... but basically, she's not your main concern, your son is.

So you've tried the gentle approach with her and talking and suggesting. It's not working. You now have to tell her out straight that you can't allow it to continue. She will deal with it, and maybe start to do something about it. Your son on the other hand isn't big enough to deal with it. That's where we're supposed to step in.

Stop the "playdates". Stop taking her children. Stop sending your fella to their house. Make other arrangements and tell her why.

It won't be easy, but your son needs you on HIS side, not hers.

Nevyn

Fittle wrote: »

I think she has her head in the sand to be honest. She does SEE what they do...she comments on it, but she doesn't chastise them at all and it just continues.

Sounds like she is in denail and can't look at or accept how things really are cos if she is not coping now then she prolly feels she would not be able to make changes to her life, the house, the kids and their behaviour.

Do the kid behave when you have them in your house?
Do they follow the house rules and your rules?

djimi

Fittle wrote: »

Yes I agree, I can't put him through this again.

But how to (nicely) tell her that he won't sleep over again etc....

I have a night out in two weeks and it's been planned (since august!) that he stays at her house...he genuinely doesn't want to, and wont stay there again.

So how do I say that those plans have been re-arranged etc? We have a nice 'set-up', particularly over christmas, where both of us have work stuff and nites out, and we mind each others kids (I mind hers in her house) and it works well in the sense that neither of us have to pay for babysitters. It's just assumed that we'll both 'back each other up' over xmas....
How do I (subtly) change this routine....?

You dont. You be blunt with her and tell her that your son is afraid to be around her kids because they are bullies and unless she sorts them out the arrangement you have in place can no longer continue. Show her that you are serious about not allowing your son to be in a position where her kids can cause him any more hurt or anxiety.

I can appreciate that it is an awkward position as she is your best friend, but your son is infinately more important then she will ever be, so whats best for him needs to come first. Your friend needs a wake up call, and by the sounds of it sublty is not going to help in that regard.

Fittle

I agree with you all, and thanks for your honesty. My son IS my priority and that's why I won't be allowing him go there again. We even had a loose arrangement that she would drop him to school for me next week one morning (I've an early work thing), but I've already re-arranged that. My son doesn't want to be anywhere near them....

The kids behave the same in my house as they do in their own house. At least they TRY to behave like that, but I stop them. They behave dreadful when she's around and are a slight bit better when she's not.

I was just chatting to her on the phone this morning and she was filling me in on her disaster of a weekend (filled with bad behaviour from kids) and the middle guy smashed her kitchen window throwing his cup at it. She was almost laughing saying 'he has SUCH temper....'

I'm almost sickened by it now and just want to take a step back - I can't go on being her friend if she continues to allow them to walk all over her like this.

Nevyn

Have you told her that you think she allows the children to walk all over her?

There are parents who were brougth up being hit by parents and now that they do not want to do that do thier children have no idea how to put in place rules, and disapline and how to enforce them.

I never tought I would said this but she needs an intervention by the sound of it, do we have an irish super nanny?

Does she know about parentline?
http://www.parentline.ie/
Parentline, Carmichael House, North Brunswick Street Dublin 7
Telephone: 1890 927 277 - info@parentline.ie


http://www.parentline.ie/parenting-tips/parenting-pointers.asp

Fittle

I had a difficult upbringing myself - alot of violence in the home, none directed at me thankfully, but a witness to violence is a victim of violence, or so they say in all the best 'self-help' books. So I understand when you say that kids brought up like that don't know how to discipline etc (I've been to counselling myself!).

We have spoken about our childhoods and she often says how grateful she is for her wonderful parents and the wonderful upbringing she had - it was the polar opposite to mine - parents who told her they loved her all the time, a dad who doted and still dotes on her, a mother who she still has a wonderful relationship with etc. So her uprbringing doesn't seem to be the issue at all.

I think I need to take a step back as even thinking about that child breaking that window yesterday, is filling me with rage. And I want to grab her by the hair and shake her for not AT LEAST grounding him.
I don't think it's my place to tell her I think her kids walk all over her. Like I said, I have hinted at it before and her reaction is always 'I know..they're brats!!!!' and that's the end of the conversation. And she already knows they walk all over her - I don't think I can change her parenting skills.
I think I can take a step back so that I don't get so wound up by it myself however.

Nevyn

You are rigth, you need to look after yourself, and your well being so that you can be the best parent you can be for your son. You are right it's her family and her problems with her kids and she has to see there is a problem you can't make her do that. But you can minimise the impact on you and your family.

tinkerbell

OP, your son is your number 1 priority, not your "friend's" feelings. And I say "friend" because she's not exactly one. Why would a real friend let their children be violent to another child? And why are you so concerned with "letting her down gently" when your little boy is terrified of going to their house?

You need to get a bit of a reality check here. If you don't stop this right now, your son will grow up resenting you for bringing him to a place where he gets bullied. And you continuing to be friends with this woman is further insulting your child.

I don't have children yet but if a friend of mine was letting her children hurt my child, I would never speak to her again.

You say you have told your son to stand up for himself but he can't. Where did he learn that from? You ... Because clearly you can't stand up for yourself if you have let this woman walk all over you for so long.

And as for the handy arrangements at christmas, etc - just make new arrangements. Paying for a babysitter seems a lot better than letting your son stay in a house that terrifies him.

So chin up, tell her you or your son will not be socialising with them anymore as they do not respect you. And as for her - I would dump her as a friend as she is not a friend. Your son is your priority, she comes last. Good luck!

BoardsMember

As someone said earlier. There seem to be two things you have to do as a priority:
1 - take your kids out of harms way
2 - be honest with your friend and tell her why
Be brave, dont keep posting here when you know what you have to do in the real world.

Fittle

tinkerbell wrote: »

You say you have told your son to stand up for himself but he can't. Where did he learn that from? You ... Because clearly you can't stand up for yourself if you have let this woman walk all over you for so long.

Oh-oh. That has genuinely struck a chord with me. I never thought of it like that - I really didn't.

I do have to emphasise that she is not walking all over me. She is very supportive, is always there when I need her, would do anything for me etc. She is far from walking all over me. It's the children situation that is the only problem in our relationship.

But the fact that my boy doesn't see me standing up for myself.....

I am forever telling him to stand up for himself (not just in this situation) - and it never occured to me that he doesn't see me do that very much:(

'Be brave, dont keep posting here when you know what you have to do in the real world.'

Seriously, I would rather just back off and get the babysitter to help me out more. I have some other stuff going on at the moment and I wouldn't be able for this confrontation with her, not right now.

I'll back off, won't go there anymore and give my son the biggest hug ever tonight, when I tell him that he's my number one and we will never have to see those kids again. Ever.

tinkerbell

OP, it doesn't matter how nice this woman is to you and how much she helps you out. She is allowing her kids to hit your child and hurt him. There is no way that I would allow anybody treat my children (if I had children) that way. She is not a good person for allowing this to happen.

And you just backing down, IS letting her walk all over you. Your son needs to know that his mom is doing everything she can to ensure that this never happens again. And what you need to do is tell her that you can no longer hang around with her or her children unless they change their behaviour. You saying nothing means that she will never change her "parenting" and there will come a situation where you n your son run into her kids again and the same thing happens.

I think using other personal stuff going on at the moment is just an excuse to avoid confrontation. Your son more than anything else needs to come first. You need to put that personal stuff aside for one minute and address this issue. If you cannot do it in person, write her a letter. Then it's done.

Big Bag of Chips

Good Girl Fittle! (sounds patronising, but not meant to be!!)

There doesn't need to be a confrontation.. I think you can back away from her gently, without actually saying anything. Seems even if you do say it, she will not take too much notice anyway! As many posters have said, her and her family, and their problems are not really your problem, so being honest about it you don't have to actually say anything. She should be able to figure it out for herself!

Stay away, everyone else does! It's very easy to say be up front, tell her, be honest etc. But it's a very difficult thing to do! Your only concern is your son, so he's the one you should concentrate on... not on giving her reasons and explanations, which she won't take much notice of anyway.

"Brats" are a bit cheeky and try get away with more than they should, they don't physically attack other children and break windows.

Fittle

Do you know I'd a big reply written to tinkerbell, defending myself for not confronting this.

But then your post arrived big bag...and you're so right.

These are HER kids and HER problem and a comment from me is not going to change her 12 years of parenting. So I'll guarantee my lad that he won't ever have to see them again...and you're also right big bag, I'll stay away because everybody else does (i'd never thought of it like this either). There are some battles we can take on and perhaps win..this is not one of them.

I'm surprised none of you mentioned her husband yet. For the record, he's completely useless, allows her to all the 'parenting' and has very little interaction with the kids and she spends her days giving out about him.

Anyway, thanks again for advice...I've backed away already (emotionally) and this has done me the power of good (writing it down).

Quackles

Fittle wrote: »

Do you know I'd a big reply written to tinkerbell, defending myself for not confronting this.

But then your post arrived big bag...and you're so right.

These are HER kids and HER problem and a comment from me is not going to change her 12 years of parenting. So I'll guarantee my lad that he won't ever have to see them again...and you're also right big bag, I'll stay away because everybody else does (i'd never thought of it like this either). There are some battles we can take on and perhaps win..this is not one of them.

I'm surprised none of you mentioned her husband yet. For the record, he's completely useless, allows her to all the 'parenting' and has very little interaction with the kids and she spends her days giving out about him.

Anyway, thanks again for advice...I've backed away already (emotionally) and this has done me the power of good (writing it down).

Pretty much exactly what I'd do. I don't think you need to lose a friend over this. I don't think anything you say will change a parenting style 12 years in the making, but perhaps the simple act of distancing your child will slap some sense into her.

However, be prepared, if you're as close as all that, she'll notice even without you saying anything, and the day will come when she either comes right out and asks you what's wrong, or she just assumes you're being a cow and cuts ties with you. Just think on that - you may NEED to explain to her why you're not spending time with her kids anymore. Personally, I wouldn't fall out with a friend for saying that their child was afraid of mine if it was done in a kindly manner, but then again, I'd be heartbroken if I thought of my child bullying and I'd do anything to prevent it.. It's hard to call what she'd do, but she does, at least, acknowledge the bad behaviour, so I think she might understand?

CK2010

Fittle wrote: »

I handle it generally by telling my lad he needs to toughen up and hit back, and by chastising the child as much as you can, in the presence of its parent, who doesn't chastise the child for the behaviour at all.

Am i the only person who sees this as a problem?

I dont want to question your parenting abilities/methods, as your concern for your child alone shows that you're a good parent, but i dont see how you can give out to one child for hitting and then tell your own child to hit back when they hit him!

and if im confused by this logic then im pretty sure all the children involved are too. if your child hit them back in front of you and the childrens parent was there beside you, what would you do? would you give out to your child or praise him for fighting back? im not attacking you, just genuinely dont understand how you can be so annoyed at other kids doing it (which is understandable) and yet encourage it in your own child.

i know that he needs to stand up for himself, i really do get that but i think telling him to do this by hitting them back is only escalating the problem and sending mixed messages about whats allowed and whats not. for all you know he could be hitting them too and they're fighting back, a vicious circle.

i think you need to be straight with your friend and tell her that her kids are bullying him. not 'playing too rough' or any other subtle way of saying it- they're bullying him and let her know that if they dont stop you cant allow them to play with him. simple as. if she gets annoyed then just explain that you're doing right by your son and if she wants to put things right she knows how. the ball is in her court then.

another thing though- do the kids actually really like each other? like are they just pushed on each other because you two are friends? if so then maybe give your friends kids a dvd to watch and allow your son to play in a seperate room while they're there- not seperate them but give them their own space. maybe they are just sick of being together. im not saying that this is the case, and im by no means suggesting that its an excuse but its just a suggestion. just because you two are friends it doesnt automatically equate to them being friends and maybe its their way of telling him or you that they dont want him there- its not nice and i could be entirely wrong but its worth considering.

im not an expert and i could be entirely wrong in everything i said, its just my two cents. hopefully you get it sorted. its hard when you're child is being hurt, physically or emotionally, by another child, but in this case you need to step in cause its not just children being kids, they've been given the green light by mammy to be bullies.

D rog

I agree with Quackles. Prepare for a backlash.

Just because you have emotionally distanced yourself and are going to being further distancing yourself doesn't mean it will be accepted.
It may actually be very difficult to do this, as if she has no-one else to rely on for support and a break, she will try to retain the arrangement with you I imagine.

It may be more honest to say something upfront like " Mary I won't be able to call around to the kids, or do any babysitting duties from now on as I can't put my son in a position where he's liable to be hurt, you know?" Maybe suggest meeting for a long coffee and chat on saturdays when her husband is around so you can maintain the friendship?

I think you should expect some anger on her behalf- because of hurt, embarassment, losing her 'break'. After all that she may then begin to understand where you're coming from and you can work it out.

Jo King

Fittle wrote: »

(I've been to counselling myself!).

a dad who doted and still dotes on her, a mother who she still has a wonderful relationship with etc. So her uprbringing doesn't seem to be the issue at all.

I thought her parents were dead!
Also, it was a girls who scratched your son's face in one post and she shouted at a boy about it.
I'd keep going to the counselling.

Fittle

It was a boy who scratched him.
Her parents are alive and well. She reads boards and I'd rather she didn't realise I was writing here about her, so I changed that part of the story.
But thanks for pointing that out.