FF, FG, all the same

Zynks

Based on my belief that when drunk you get a chance to show what you are really made of, this article tells me that the political rot in this country will remain when FG gets into power.

AH, but we are OK, because Brian is going to replace Brian and all will be forgotten.

Is this the best we deserve? Maybe it is, not sure...

mgmt

All politicians are power hungry cocks. The less power we give to politicians the better.

Denerick

We deserve the government we vote for. If you continue to vote for politicians of every stripe who encompass essentially the same worldview - namely that public service is about massaging ones ego and not about serving the public good (This will mean an end to nepotism, cute hoorism and pathetic ambition a lá Lucinda Creighton etc. etc.) we will continue to get these political figures.

Citizens seem to expect their leaders to have political virtue, yet don't seem particularly bothered when they themselves continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue.

The Raven.

Denerick wrote: »

We deserve the government we vote for. If you continue to vote for politicians of every stripe who encompass essentially the same worldview - namely that public service is about massaging ones ego and not about serving the public good (This will mean an end to nepotism, cute hoorism and pathetic ambition a lá Lucinda Creighton etc. etc.) we will continue to get these political figures.

Citizens seem to expect their leaders to have political virtue, yet don't seem particularly bothered when they themselves continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue.

Here we go again! Back to this eternal 'we'. That's as daft as saying that none of us deserve this government because those of us who didn't vote for them are the 'collective' 'we'. How many times does this point have to be driven home before the penny drops? I give up :rolleyes:!

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. Could you please explain how you think people should vote, and what is the alternative? And who precisely are these 'citizens' who 'continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue'?

Denerick

The Raven. wrote: »

Here we go again! Back to this eternal 'we'. That's as daft as saying that none of us deserve this government because those of us who didn't vote for them are the 'collective' 'we'. How many times does this point have to be driven home before the penny drops? I give up :rolleyes:!

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. Could you please explain how you think people should vote, and what is the alternative? And who precisely are these 'citizens' who 'continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue'?

The entire political system exhibits the same characteristics - jobs for the boys, nepotism, cute hoorism, downright deceit on the oppositions part. Don't delude yourself about the true nature of this body politic.

Kevster

Denerick wrote: »

We deserve the government we vote for

Nice point, but there's one problem with it: How many people actually vote? In the majority of countries, those who are in power were not elected by the majority of their citizens. Only in countries where citizens are required to vote can there be a truly 'elected' government.

We have all seen how democracy 'ages' with time, and how change is needed to this form of government.

Kevin

johnnyskeleton

Zynks wrote: »

Based on my belief that when drunk you get a chance to show what you are really made of, this article tells me that the political rot in this country will remain when FG gets into power.

AH, but we are OK, because Brian is going to replace Brian and all will be forgotten.

Is this the best we deserve? Maybe it is, not sure...

The drunk scandals of the last few weeks show two things:

1) you can't get rid of a Taoiseach because they have woefully mismanaged the country, but you might be able to get rid of them if they are hammered in public.

2) There's a lot of people in public life with drink related stories - Cowen, Sheahan and Vincent Brown to name a few in the last week. I wonder are they finally giving in to despair and deciding to drink their last few cares away before it all goes pear shaped?

transylman

Zynks wrote: »

Based on my belief that when drunk you get a chance to show what you are really made of, this article tells me that the political rot in this country will remain when FG gets into power.

AH, but we are OK, because Brian is going to replace Brian and all will be forgotten.

Is this the best we deserve? Maybe it is, not sure...

Off the top of my head

Ray Burke
Liam Lawlor
Beverley Cooper Flynn
John O Donoghue
Willie O Dea
Bertie Ahern
Padhraic Flynn
Charlie Haughey
Ivor Callely

Produce similar lists for the other parties, then you can complain about them all being the same.

The Raven.

Denerick wrote: »

The entire political system exhibits the same characteristics - jobs for the boys, nepotism, cute hoorism, downright deceit on the oppositions part. Don't delude yourself about the true nature of this body politic.

I am under no illusion about politicians and their network of cronies and collaborators. Double standards go with the territory. Democracy is measured by the percentage of votes, which causes candidates to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds (quite apart from dodgy dealings), in order to get elected. Once over the threshold of power, even that form of ‘democracy’ diminishes until the next election.

But you haven’t answered my question. What is the alternative? It is generally accepted that the current government is the worst possible scenario – the most corrupt and incompetent. But we have to have a government and the only way to get rid of the current one is to vote, at the earliest opportunity, for the biggest and most popular party (Fine Gael) in coalition with Labour or some other combination. What other choice is there?

You referred to ‘citizens’ (not politicians), who ‘continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue.’ Do you mean all citizens, or the majority of citizens, or some citizens? Who are these people, and how are they ‘continuously’ failing ‘to exercise or present any sign of virtue.’

Once again you use a collective term: ‘body politic’, as if all Irish individuals think and behave identically like a bunch of clones.

Zynks

transylman wrote: »

Off the top of my head

Ray Burke
Liam Lawlor
Beverley Cooper Flynn
John O Donoghue
Willie O Dea
Bertie Ahern
Padhraic Flynn
Charlie Haughey
Ivor Callely

Produce similar lists for the other parties, then you can complain about them all being the same.

While it is true that there isn't so many outside FF, the ones listed above had to be in power to become 'naughty' and then exposed.

The article shows a very serious ethical breach from Mr. Kenny, no matter how you look at it. If that is an indication of things to come, it won't be pretty.

For the record, I don't support any party in particular. I have a history of voting for candidates that happen to be affiliated to Labour, PDs, Greens or independents - I vote for people, not for parties.

Denerick

The Raven. wrote: »

I am under no illusion about politicians and their network of cronies and collaborators. Double standards go with the territory. Democracy is measured by the percentage of votes, which causes candidates to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds (quite apart from dodgy dealings), in order to get elected. Once over the threshold of power, even that form of ‘democracy’ diminishes until the next election.

But you haven’t answered my question. What is the alternative? It is generally accepted that the current government is the worst possible scenario – the most corrupt and incompetent. But we have to have a government and the only way to get rid of the current one is to vote, at the earliest opportunity, for the biggest and most popular party (Fine Gael) in coalition with Labour or some other combination. What other choice is there?

You referred to ‘citizens’ (not politicians), who ‘continuously fail to exercise or present any sign of virtue.’ Do you mean all citizens, or the majority of citizens, or some citizens? Who are these people, and how are they ‘continuously’ failing ‘to exercise or present any sign of virtue.’

Once again you use a collective term: ‘body politic’, as if all Irish individuals think and behave identically like a bunch of clones.

Most of the problems with Irish politics, and with irish culture as it manifests on Joe Duffy is that we are a nation of whingers. We always think someone else is going to do it better, without expecting anything substantially different. FG are FF with a slightly different image; substantially very little distinguishes them on either policy or structure. If you continuously vote for the same end results of a flawed system, don't be surprised when you end up with bad governance.

We need to start expecting radically different things from politicians. Our constituency system is one of the biggest problems. The horrible county jersey politics is an indictment of a people who seem to have little regard for the national interest, who only care about their bypasses in their crappy little country towns.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

.....a people who seem to have little regard for the national interest, who only care about their bypasses in their crappy little country towns.

:mad: OK, that's objectionable. I don't know where you live but you're writing off an awful lot of people and places in one ridiculous sweeping generalisation.

I have to remind you that Ahern wasn't from any "crappy little country town"; And the objectionable planning around Dublin Docks far outweighs the cost of any bypass.

You had a valid point but you undermined it with that cheap generalised slur.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:mad: OK, that's objectionable. I don't know where you live but you're writing off an awful lot of people and places in one ridiculous sweeping generalisation.

I have to remind you that Ahern wasn't from any "crappy little country town"; And the objectionable planning around Dublin Docks far outweighs the cost of any bypass.

You had a valid point but you undermined it with that cheap generalised slur.

To be fair, I meant it as self deprecating. I currently live in a crappy little country town, for better or worse.

simonj

Well, I am of the opinion that FF and FG are two cheeks of the one arse.
The only thing that really separates them is 1922 and which dynastic trouser leg they ran down.

Unlike Amhran Nua none of the parties, including Labour, want to tackle corruption in the public service.
Unlike Amhran Nua none of the parties want electoral reform, the FG ideas in New Era are a watered down copy of AN policy.

Voting for FG and Labour will not provide real change, and the electorate have few other viable alternatives due to our out of date electoral system - therin lies the problem

Liam Byrne

simonj wrote: »

Unlike Amhran Nua none of the parties want electoral reform, the FG ideas in New Era are a watered down copy of AN policy.

OK - that's contradictory, unless they're so watered down as to not actually qualify as reform.

scr123

Its a nonsense to even hint at the idea that FG and FF are the same. There are two political parties in this country, FF and and the ABFF. FF do not engage in ideology and this leaves them free to follow the simple mantra, somebody needs to run the country. The ABFF are full of ideology and of course this means endless disunity and extremism. Lets face the reality, if one has a left or right leaning you certaily do not vote FF !
I say to the keyboard warriors, grow up and get out in to the real world of politics and economics and stop the silly nonsense of hatred for FF and utter stupid belief that the ABFF are the salvation of the country. Have said it a few times on this board, in 2007 only 25% of the electorate voted FF. Even with 75% of the electorate the ABFF are in total denial and refuse to create a confluence of events

transylman

scr123 wrote: »

FF do not engage in ideology and this leaves them free to follow the simple mantra, somebody needs to run the country...

... into the ground.

1950s: FF protectionist economic policies cause major economic recession. People leave the country in droves.
1970s: FF free-spending budgets cause massive increase in government debt, leading to major economic recession. People leave the country in droves.
2000s: FF failure to regulate banks and policies encouraging housebuilding cause housing bubble, which caused major economic recession when it burst. People start to leave the country in droves.

The Raven.

Denerick wrote: »

Most of the problems with Irish politics, and with irish culture as it manifests on Joe Duffy is that we are a nation of whingers. We always think someone else is going to do it better, without expecting anything substantially different. FG are FF with a slightly different image; substantially very little distinguishes them on either policy or structure. If you continuously vote for the same end results of a flawed system, don't be surprised when you end up with bad governance.

I would question the use of the Joe Duffy Show as a valid example of the state of the nation. Joe Duffy attracts those types of people with their particular problems. It is a false conclusion to draw from that minority that ‘we are a nation of whingers.’ It is like saying that everyone who goes to a doctor is sick; therefore we are a sick nation.

We always think someone else is going to do it better, without expecting anything substantially different.

That is another sweeping and unfounded statement. I agree that the current system is flawed, and at present the electorate are caught between a bad choice and the possibility of something better, but yet again you have not provided an alternative solution.

We need to start expecting radically different things from politicians.

I would say that we should start demanding ‘radically different things from politicians.’

Our constituency system is one of the biggest problems. The horrible county jersey politics is an indictment of a people who seem to have little regard for the national interest, who only care about their bypasses in their crappy little country towns.

These ‘bypasses’ are supposedly in the ‘national interest’. On the one hand, they ease the traffic congestion, but they can also have adverse effects on local business thus adding to the mass unemployment. Ignoring or trivializing local problems does little to engender a spirit of idealism in terms of the greater good. However, I do accept that parish-pump politics often plays a less altruistic role.

bijapos

transylman wrote: »

Off the top of my head

Ray Burke
Liam Lawlor
Beverley Cooper Flynn
John O Donoghue
Willie O Dea
Bertie Ahern
Padhraic Flynn
Charlie Haughey
Ivor Callely

Produce similar lists for the other parties, then you can complain about them all being the same.

I've no intention of waiting that long until we actually have proof that FG have caused as much havoc as FF.

Kenny has appointed people to his front bench who regularly take donations* off developers and bankers. His councillors still rezone land against all economic and planning advice. FG have done nothing to prove to me that they are any different to FF, I can see this any time I look at how my local councillors vote and perform. The rot is well and truly in there, don't you worry.










* These of course are "donations", not "bribes". :rolleyes:

raymon

bijapos wrote: »

I've no intention of waiting that long until we actually have proof that FG have caused as much havoc as FF.

Kenny has appointed people to his front bench who regularly take donations* off developers and bankers. His councillors still rezone land against all economic and planning advice. FG have done nothing to prove to me that they are any different to FF, I can see this any time I look at how my local councillors vote and perform. The rot is well and truly in there, don't you worry.



* These of course are "donations", not "bribes". :rolleyes:

Hello Bijapos - can you list the people who regularly take these donations in FG ?? ( also please include the frequency )

Thanks

Please expose them !!!

raymon

scr123 wrote: »

Its a nonsense to even hint at the idea that FG and FF are the same. There are two political parties in this country, FF and and the ABFF. FF do not engage in ideology and this leaves them free to follow the simple mantra, somebody needs to run the country. The ABFF are full of ideology and of course this means endless disunity and extremism. Lets face the reality, if one has a left or right leaning you certaily do not vote FF !
I say to the keyboard warriors, grow up and get out in to the real world of politics and economics and stop the silly nonsense of hatred for FF and utter stupid belief that the ABFF are the salvation of the country. Have said it a few times on this board, in 2007 only 25% of the electorate voted FF. Even with 75% of the electorate the ABFF are in total denial and refuse to create a confluence of events

BAFF AFBB BAFA ABFB - ??? Are you ABFF ?? Are we ABFF ???
Is my dog ABFF???
What the hell are you talking about ???? Saving the country ??? Who are you talking about ???

Extremists ??? Who are extremists ?? Are the BAFFs extremists , or the FABBs

What have you done to save the country - or have you left your armchair yet ????? Go ahead - take a break to make a cup of tea . What a patriot !!

bijapos

raymon wrote: »

Hello Bijapos - can you list the people who regularly take these donations in FG ?? ( also please include the frequency )

Thanks

Please expose them !!!

Its freely available information, or at least what they choose to divulge.

Try www.sipo.gov.ie , a big site but lots of info in that if you have the time. I already wrote on boards about some of my local reps such as Sean Barrett (post nr 50).

If you want more info try contacting FG as to how they got rid of their massive debts in the 1990's. Would make for some interesting reading. I tried a couple of years ago, wasn't very succesful.

Liam Byrne

bijapos wrote: »

Its freely available information, or at least what they choose to divulge.

Are you trying to imply that they have hidden donations over and above the non-disclosure limits ?

If so, I'd be pretty sure of my facts before I'd go making such claims.

raymon

bijapos wrote: »

Its freely available information, or at least what they choose to divulge.

Try www.sipo.gov.ie , a big site but lots of info in that if you have the time. I already wrote on boards about some of my local reps such as Sean Barrett (post nr 50).

If you want more info try contacting FG as to how they got rid of their massive debts in the 1990's. Would make for some interesting reading. I tried a couple of years ago, wasn't very succesful.

Why do you direct us to a website ????

The question is not a difficult one ......can you list the people who regularly take these donations in FG ?? ( also please include the frequency )

Thanks

Why is that so difficult???? You made the statement now back it up

bijapos

^Like I said, they remain silent on how they cleared their debt in the 1990's. They choose not to divulge this. It would make for some interesting reading I think, based on the some of the people in the sipo lists.

On top of this there is the under counter payments to staff in the 90's, former Senator and TD Liam T Cosgraves bribes from developers for rezoning and so on and so on.....

GarlicBread

scr123 wrote: »

Its a nonsense to even hint at the idea that FG and FF are the same.

And the difference between the center right and the center right is ?

bijapos

raymon wrote: »

Why do you direct us to a website ????

The question is not a difficult one ......can you list the people who regularly take these donations in FG ?? ( also please include the frequency )

Thanks

Why is that so difficult???? You made the statement now back it up

SIPO is the Standards in Public Office website, thought you might know that.

Try the Sean Barrett link as well.

raymon

bijapos wrote: »

SIPO is the Standards in Public Office website, thought you might know that.

Try the Sean Barrett link as well.

Please back up your statement with facts - who gave what donation to who when ?????

I do not know what the link to the website is supposed to show us . Please show the details you speak of .

bijapos

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/DonationsDisclosed/TDsSenatorsandMEPs/DonationsDisclosedbyTDsSenatorsandMEPsfor2007/File,8136,en.pdf

And some stuff on my local Senator.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0806/1224276309806.html

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/aug/15/fine-gael-councillor-refuses-to-discuss-political-/

View

Kevster wrote: »

Nice point, but there's one problem with it: How many people actually vote? In the majority of countries, those who are in power were not elected by the majority of their citizens.

Politicians are elected by the people who bother to vote. Those that don't vote, in effect, elect to leave the decisions to others.

That's all very well but really they have zero grounds for complaint about the decisions made by either the voters or the politicians duly elected as they had their chance to vote as well and were in most cases just too lazy or cynical to bother.

The Raven.

bijapos wrote: »

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/DonationsD...le,8136,en.pdf

Might as well give both sides of the picture:

Fianna Fail 2007: Total donations disclosed €490,831.68 of which €8,960.52 was returned to the donors.

Fine Gael 2007: Total donations disclosed €104,621.92 of which €2,360 was returned to the donors

Fianna Fail 2009: €94,983.20

Fine Gael 2009: €17,663.66

And some stuff on my local Senator.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0806/1224276309806.html

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/aug/15/fine-gael-councillor-refuses-to-discuss-political-/

Your ‘local Senator’? John Bailey is no more a Senator than I am. He is a councillor on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. Is that all the dirt you can dig up? Two articles about one FG councillor who received donations from two developers each pretending to be two different companies. I’m not defending Bailey but he disclosed all of the donations he received to the Standards in Public Office Commission, unlike a lot of Fianna Fail donations.

FIANNA FÁIL has failed to disclose to the ethics watchdog tens of thousands of euro in corporate donations.

An Irish Examiner investigation has revealed the party took donations either side of the 2007 general election which were above the declaration threshold and should have been notified to the Standards in Public Office Commission (SIPO) – but were not.

http://www.examiner.ie/home/ff-failed-to-disclose-thousands-in-donations-92038.html#ixzz0Fq79HwR1&A

Shea O'Meara

'All the same' suits the status quo down to the ground. Those disgruntled by the parties don't vote, those who do have large elements who vote for the same party regardless.
This leaves us in the same position with the same choices.
As we have seen pre-election policies and those actually followed up on can differ greatly. As we also know, people, individually, differ greatly.
That said one can't tar an entire party on the actions of one man. It's when many people from a party act in a corrupt and selfish way over generations that one can claim everybody from that party are the same.
Even then that may not be true, but where one party needs to prove they are capable of putting Ireland above their own self interests, there are others who simply want to prove they can do a better job with no slate needing to be cleared.
Why would I vote for a party with decades of corrupt high profile 'people', a party that was founded by a man who defrauded the Irish both at home and abroad on a massive scale?
I believe wanting to try something different after years of the same party slapping me in the face deserves better than a bluster, sensationalist and dismissive term such 'ABFF'. I consider it reasoned logic to want a different party or parties in government. Unless of course they sack one guy of prominance and declare they've 'cleaned house'...again:rolleyes:

bijapos

The Raven. wrote: »

Your ‘local Senator’? John Bailey is no more a Senator than I am. He is a councillor on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

Of course, sorry my apologies I got him mixed up with Eugene Regan.

Is that all the dirt you can dig up?

These are some of my local reps, I have no intention of sitting here writing on every constituency in the country, just to say that FG are nowhere near as clean as they might like to think.

And before you start, I am not FF. I stick FF at the bottom of the ballot sheet, FG directly above them. FGs record on voting in lunatic rezonings is well known and they rarely if ever vote against FF on DL-Rathdown council on planning issues.