begining to see a trend

seannash

Am i the only one whos noticing alot of people asking about setups for playing out and not setups just to play around in there bedroom.

ive a feeling alot more people are looking at dj'ing as a way to make a bit of money instead of a pasttime or hobby to be enjoyed.

the reasons people seem interested in dj'ing now seem totally different to why i got involved with it.

we all have the thoughts of getting gigs but it was never the driving force behind why i got my equipment.

my younger brother returned from a summer in spain and started to quiz me about software for djing.not because he likes dance usic but purely because it was so easy to do now and he could possibly get gigs out of it.

i know people have always been around who looked at it from a financial point of view but has the initial low set up cost i takes these days opened it up to the wrong sort of people?

Sky King

I noticed it too. Laptops have made it a hell of a lot easier to break into.

The market is already saturated but I suppose that's good for the punter because it means the standard needs to be higher.

seannash

The market is already saturated but I suppose that's good for the punter because it means the standard needs to be higher.

you would think so but it seems the opposite is the case.

hans aus dtschl

Fully with you sean.

It's helped me, because I'm with vinyl. Think noob laptop dj's are so common now that it's affecting those who are more accomplished with the format maybe. Not as many with vinyl that have the dollar in sight (prob cos it aint there haha)

It's a recession, so it's only natural that more people see it as a means to an end, than a hobby/pleasure thing than during the boom years.

Logical Fallacy

Personally i've done a good few gigs now, and the majority of them were done for free. I'm not bothered about the money aspect of the gigs, i just enjoy playing live...which is strange as i was fully convinced that i wouldn't.

But, sure enough, as time goes on I am making my live thing more and more complex with the goal of moving into the scary realms of live production ala Loops Haunt. It's all just fun to me, the same way it's fun to most of the lads i know who DJ in any format.

Not doubt there are chaps out there getting into it purely for financial reasons, but i don't seem to be running into them in the scene/circles i operate in.

run_Forrest_run

I'm still very much into it as a hobby and I won't forsee myself taking it any futher for numerous reasons, 1: not good enough, 2: Not enough time due to young family 3: Very unsociable hours (again, young family) and finally 4: I am luckily in full time employment.

Anyone looking to get into it just for financial reasons will not last long, there are lots of very talented up and coming DJs around so eventually the money chasers will be caught out.

Executive Steve

When you make something foolproof you shouldn't be amazed when you attract fools.

ED E

Until I'm completely satisfied with my own ability I refuse to charge, that way there's no responsibility on me when something crashes and burns.

Playing for free and enjoying it. The reaction you get from dropping a stomper should be enough for any new DJ methinks.

eeloe

Yeah, i've noticed it sean, In my town alone there's about 50 lads doing gigs now with a laptop with a phono coming from the line out on their laptop in to the pubs(clubs WON'T get them thank god) sound system, using virtual DJ.

Fair enough, they have found a market to make some extra money without having to shell out loads of money to start up.

They will eventually stop doing it tho, it's the one's who've been at it for years will stick with it.

jtsuited

Executive Steve wrote: »

When you make something foolproof you shouldn't be amazed when you attract fools.

haha. zing!

TURRICAN

hi sean
i think lads like that wont last.they will get a few gigs possibly.they have no understanding of the music.the dance scene for these lads started not so long ago.
catch me drift?

Logical Fallacy

TURRICAN wrote: »

hi sean
i think lads like that wont last.they will get a few gigs possibly.they have no understanding of the music.the dance scene for these lads started not so long ago.
catch me drift?

If they want money, chances are they will end up play Top 20 chart tracks anyways.

Hypertic

I deffo agree. With the dawn of the laptop dj you are bound to get a lot more people playing due to accessability. The difference will be that most of the people you see spinning now wont really progess that far I feel.

The main reasons are times have changed. You get a lot further in this game as a producer who can dj than solely being a dj. Most will throw their hand to producing and realise that its hard work and takes a lot of sacrafice to actually get somewhere, mainly talking in years rather than months. The instant gratification of the ''sync'' button in Traktor is far more appealing than the frustration of a beginning producer.

So they won't get many gigs and the interest will fade and you'll get a new cycle of the same mindset and it will continue that way.

Its good to have more djs because it might get more people out clubbing again but in reality the cream rises so you'll see the top acts/djs going further in their careers than than the new laptop djs. But there are always exceptions.

electrogrimey

There's a silver cloud to this though. It's not just DJing that's become accessible, it's production too.

So, you see loads of amazing 17/18 year old guys making amazing tracks and pushing the boundaries, because these days anyone can try their hand at making a track. Fair enough, it means there's more **** on Soundcloud, but it's worth it.

Is mise le key

electrogrimey wrote: »

There's a silver cloud to this though. It's not just DJing that's become accessible, it's production too.

.

Dont know what is available production wise for home use but there must be great stuff out there now if i was fuc.king around with this stuff in around 1987 - 1988 on my atari st:D,

francois

electrogrimey wrote: »

There's a silver cloud to this though. It's not just DJing that's become accessible, it's production too.

Sadly much of that easily accessible production is utter muck

jtsuited

electrogrimey wrote: »

There's a silver cloud to this though. It's not just DJing that's become accessible, it's production too.

So, you see loads of amazing 17/18 year old guys making amazing tracks and pushing the boundaries, because these days anyone can try their hand at making a track. Fair enough, it means there's more **** on Soundcloud, but it's worth it.

I'm gonna massively disagree with this. The fact that anyone (and everyone) can stick a few samples together in ableton and make a 'track' is in absolutely no way a force for good in the world.

Couple this with tone-deaf musically clueless dj's setting up digital only labels in order to be able to put a label in brackets behind their names on posters and we have the state of 'underground' music today.

"So, you see loads of amazing 17/18 year old guys making amazing tracks and pushing the boundaries"

Where??????????? Really, I'm curious.

Just thought of an idea......if there was a blanket ban put on selling music that was produced solely in Ableton, the average standard of music being made today would absolutely soar relative to where that average stands today.

If you randomly pick any sh1t track from the endless amounts of sh1t tracks out there on every aspiring 'dj/fashion blogger' 's myspace/facebook/soundcloud I'd say 95% of them are ableton, 3% Fruity Loops, 1%Reason and the other 1% went through the bother of learning a proper DAW but of course didn't bother noticing the fact that they have absolutely no musical or compositional talent, and as such should never be allowed near anything that might allow their talentless overambitious but uninspired ideas near the ears of any listener.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm gonna massively disagree with this. The fact that anyone (and everyone) can stick a few samples together in ableton and make a 'track' is in absolutely no way a force for good in the world.

Couple this with tone-deaf musically clueless dj's setting up digital only labels in order to be able to put a label in brackets behind their names on posters and we have the state of 'underground' music today.

"So, you see loads of amazing 17/18 year old guys making amazing tracks and pushing the boundaries"

Where??????????? Really, I'm curious.

Just thought of an idea......if there was a blanket ban put on selling music that was produced solely in Ableton, the average standard of music being made today would absolutely soar relative to where that average stands today.

If you randomly pick any sh1t track from the endless amounts of sh1t tracks out there on every aspiring 'dj/fashion blogger' 's myspace/facebook/soundcloud I'd say 95% of them are ableton, 3% Fruity Loops, 1%Reason and the other 1% went through the bother of learning a proper DAW but of course didn't bother noticing the fact that they have absolutely no musical or compositional talent, and as such should never be allowed near anything that might allow their talentless overambitious but uninspired ideas near the ears of any listener.

Just curious, why do you think Ableton is not a proper DAW? I understand why Reason isn't considered one but surely Ableton is. Also,are you seriously trying to tell me there is no hipsters out there making shít music on their macs in Logic?

People have always set up vanity labels and always will, the only difference is that its far cheaper to do these days and we all the technology its easier for people to convince themselves that they sound good. Its not exclusive to dance musice. They amount of truly awful indie bands at the moment is horrendous. But there will always be people who cop a pose and convince themselves they're the bomb.

The amount have rubbish out there has probably grown exponentially and there is probably nothing to stem that flow but there are still ways to find good music out there. I find the track a day and other threads on here showcasing tunes great ways of finding tunes and discovering new artists.

But I do the constant 'its all rubbish' rants that come from people a bit grinding after a while.

Beatport is all rubbish? Find somewhere else to get your music!
Trance is all rubbish? Don't listen to it!
Laptop DJs are all rubbish? Close your eyes and listen instead of looking at what they're using before passing judgement!

Seriously, there is a lot of things out there that will annoy you if you let them get to you. I think I'm starting to get older and I've too many other things on my plate that I can't really get down with all that anymore.

I use to be extremely opinionated in my younger days but these days with mortgage, kids, full time job my opinions tend to float around a lot more. If I don't like something these days, I just turn it off…

I know there are a lot more people coming on here enquiring about dj gear and laptop djing but I don't think they are really thinking about it from a dance perspective I think they are looking at it as a handy way of making money at 21st and the like spinning Beyonce and Lady Gaga. If that's what they want to do let them off but they'll soon find out that there's not really the money in it and pack it in sharpish.

There are lots of people trying to produce stuff as well, some convinced they will produce a trance monster within a few weeks of starting, others tinkering away for the fun of it, trying to make stuff they are happy with. Some will endlessly promote themselves and their dubious wares in the hope of 'making it' but you know what if its shít they'll never get anywhere. I know people will say what about the likes of Tiesto and his ilk but I'm sure if you like that type of music he's great. If you don't just turn it off, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

leggo

More people getting into DJ-ing SHOULD (as a result of it being easier to become a DJ) mean that the standard is getting higher for the top jobs...but, that's not the case, due to the DJ who will do club gigs, weddings etc for dirt cheap prices or free. So the standard and the skill itself is diminishing because these people see E100 for a night's work as a GREAT deal (because, as amateurs, they probably think "E25 an hour?! EH...YEAH!!!") instead of taking time to learn about the industry and the business side involved.

So, with venue bosses and punters very price conscious in today's economic climate, they will take the cheap option and let the standard drop.

However, the good news is that these trends are cyclical. Bad DJs working for cheap will only lead to cheap DJs being recognised widely as just that. People will then be willing to spend that bit of extra cash for the extra quality. It's just a waiting game for the professionals who are struggling at the moment: wait until the reviews of bad DJs ruining special occassions or nights out and the mentality that price + reputation = quality sinks back in.

No matter how cheap it comes, an empty dancefloor is still an empty dancefloor. Though, I have to say, it is absolutely shocking how many bad or self-indulgent DJs there are out there these days.

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

Just curious, why do you think Ableton is not a proper DAW? I understand why Reason isn't considered one but surely Ableton is.

First off, I use ableton when playing live, and use it for lots of other things. It can do everything a DAW can do, more or less, but the workflow of it is more suited to throwing loops into session view than to actually making deliberate compositional arrangements.
When you've used pretty much every DAW, you can see that ableton is designed as an improvisational, sketch-paddy tool much more than a DAW. But if we were to get into specifics of it, Ableton is of course a DAW.

The problem as I've experienced it, is that dj's who don't produce think that the be all and end all of the craft is throwing together samples in ableton. There's actually one dj I know who sent me a track yesterday who once said (and I quote) 'but you're good on the keyboard. using the black keys and everything'.

Now without ableton, this guy is not going to be able to get a track together (without spending a hell of a lot more time and effort on it). It's not ableton's fault but it's allowed a whole generation of amusical, tone-deaf feckers make tracks with little to no effort, knowledge or creative ability.

Android 666 wrote: »

People have always set up vanity labels and always will, the only difference is that its far cheaper to do these days and we all the technology its easier for people to convince themselves that they sound good. Its not exclusive to dance musice.

Ah but in dance music it literally takes a cracked copy of ableton and about 2 hours and you're a 'producer'. At least the bands have to set up their gear.

Android 666 wrote: »

The amount have rubbish out there has probably grown exponentially and there is probably nothing to stem that flow but there are still ways to find good music out there. I find the track a day and other threads on here showcasing tunes great ways of finding tunes and discovering new artists.

Well I just threw the bathwater and baby out and have moved to vinyl as my quality control in finding new music. Works perfectly for the moment.

Android 666 wrote: »

But I do the constant 'its all rubbish' rants that come from people a bit grinding after a while.

Beatport is all rubbish? Find somewhere else to get your music!
Trance is all rubbish? Don't listen to it!
Laptop DJs are all rubbish? Close your eyes and listen instead of looking at what they're using before passing judgement!

Seriously, there is a lot of things out there that will annoy you if you let them get to you. I think I'm starting to get older and I've too many other things on my plate that I can't really get down with all that anymore.

I use to be extremely opinionated in my younger days but these days with mortgage, kids, full time job my opinions tend to float around a lot more. If I don't like something these days, I just turn it off…

I know there are a lot more people coming on here enquiring about dj gear and laptop djing but I don't think they are really thinking about it from a dance perspective I think they are looking at it as a handy way of making money at 21st and the like spinning Beyonce and Lady Gaga. If that's what they want to do let them off but they'll soon find out that there's not really the money in it and pack it in sharpish.

There are lots of people trying to produce stuff as well, some convinced they will produce a trance monster within a few weeks of starting, others tinkering away for the fun of it, trying to make stuff they are happy with. Some will endlessly promote themselves and their dubious wares in the hope of 'making it' but you know what if its shít they'll never get anywhere. I know people will say what about the likes of Tiesto and his ilk but I'm sure if you like that type of music he's great. If you don't just turn it off, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

Yeah all good points. Probably the reason these things irk me more than they should (and I admit that they shouldn't), is that music's always been what I do. It's my life and always has been.

The last two or three years is probably the first time I'm not making much of an income from music (although ironically I do it full time now - part time work ftw!!).


It should be in everyone who is serious about music's interest to support things that help music in a sustainable way that ensures that quality artists can make a living.
One of my greatest pet-peeves at the moment is label owner/dj's giving out about how sales are fcuked because of piracy.
Yet their label is starting to do digital only releases. And they play out using digital.
If all the label bosses like this had any sort of cop on, they'd all move back to vinyl. They'd protect their art. Rather than lying down and letting themselves get fcuked over by piracy, they'd fight back and say silly things like 'real djs use vinyl, end of story' (which is a commonly held belief in certain genres and scenes where vinyl sales are still healthy and the scenes aren't dominated by flavour of the month trend following beatport fodder).

So eh, yeah, I guess having opinions and getting pissed off about certain things, is an entirely natural reaction in an area where things are rapidly changing. Or something.

francois

Have to agree with you jeff, too many people think that just because you have abelton etc you can suddenly be transformed in a producer or musician, lashing together a few pre-prgrammed drum beats and basslines with a couple of samples has produced a sea of mediocrity-no- a sea of ****e even! many people never even venture beyond the key of C, or 4/4 let alone know what a minor or diminished chord is

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

The problem as I've experienced it, is that dj's who don't produce think that the be all and end all of the craft is throwing together samples in ableton. There's actually one dj I know who sent me a track yesterday who once said (and I quote) 'but you're good on the keyboard. using the black keys and everything'.

That really is a brilliant story. I'd love to hear what that track sounds like…

jtsuited wrote: »

Now without ableton, this guy is not going to be able to get a track together (without spending a hell of a lot more time and effort on it). It's not ableton's fault but it's allowed a whole generation of amusical, tone-deaf feckers make tracks with little to no effort, knowledge or creative ability.

But like I've said it'll never get anywhere, sure its static but it can easily be avoided. I do hate seeing the amount of loops given away in the likes of Computer Music and its ilk though, it really is just ammunition isn't it. As someone that does the odd tune (badly) as a hobby I can't understand how you'd get any satisfaction from using them.

jtsuited wrote: »

Ah but in dance music it literally takes a cracked copy of ableton and about 2 hours and you're a 'producer'. At least the bands have to set up their gear.

True I suppose, doesn't stop them being shít though.

jtsuited wrote: »

Well I just threw the bathwater and baby out and have moved to vinyl as my quality control in finding new music. Works perfectly for the moment.

But you see, that's being proactive. There's nothing worse than people complaining about something but not doing anything about it.

jtsuited wrote: »

Yeah all good points. Probably the reason these things irk me more than they should (and I admit that they shouldn't), is that music's always been what I do. It's my life and always has been.

The last two or three years is probably the first time I'm not making much of an income from music (although ironically I do it full time now - part time work ftw!!).

It should be in everyone who is serious about music's interest to support things that help music in a sustainable way that ensures that quality artists can make a living.
One of my greatest pet-peeves at the moment is label owner/dj's giving out about how sales are fcuked because of piracy.
Yet their label is starting to do digital only releases. And they play out using digital.
If all the label bosses like this had any sort of cop on, they'd all move back to vinyl. They'd protect their art. Rather than lying down and letting themselves get fcuked over by piracy, they'd fight back and say silly things like 'real djs use vinyl, end of story' (which is a commonly held belief in certain genres and scenes where vinyl sales are still healthy and the scenes aren't dominated by flavour of the month trend following beatport fodder).

So eh, yeah, I guess having opinions and getting pissed off about certain things, is an entirely natural reaction in an area where things are rapidly changing. Or something.

In fairness, all of this stuff has a direct impact on you and your career. If you weren't opinionated about it you wouldn't be making anything you find meaningful from it.

The vinyl only argument is an interesting one but essentially is only one that can truly work on underground releases. Inevitably if a song gets big its going to have to go cross platform if it is to sell in any great number.

I totally understand your dismay at the current state of the music scene(s) but I think you know in your heart, in any particular genre, that the cream of the crop will rise to the top (to paraphrase Public Enemy). The waffle will disappear into the ether never to be heard of again.

But you're right, opinions are vital. Don't mind me, I'm just constantly tired…

jtsuited

oh don't get me wrong, i'm still firmly of the opinion that cream still rises. it's just that it mightn't be the case in 5 years time if trends continue.

Android 666

francois wrote: »

Have to agree with you jeff, too many people think that just because you have abelton etc you can suddenly be transformed in a producer or musician, lashing together a few pre-prgrammed drum beats and basslines with a couple of samples has produced a sea of mediocrity-no- a sea of ****e even! many people never even venture beyond the key of C, or 4/4 let alone know what a minor or diminished chord is

Whatever about other aspects of music theory which people should know including basic scales and how to make up different chords, how many electronic artists really move out of the realm of 4/4 time outside of IDM.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

oh don't get me wrong, i'm still firmly of the opinion that cream still rises. it's just that it mightn't be the case in 5 years time if trends continue.

Nah, I don't believe that. Quality and originality will always shine through whether it be music or design or anything in the creative sectors. Except for fine art and country and irish, that's just shít.

jtsuited

not a crystal swing fan?

liked their early stuff before they sold out.

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

Nah, I don't believe that. Quality and originality will always shine through whether it be music

yes but it's a question of difficulty. I mean there could be hundreds of great artists out there who are getting drowned out by the ableton-preset-beatport brigade.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

yes but it's a question of difficulty. I mean there could be hundreds of great artists out there who are getting drowned out by the ableton-preset-beatport brigade.

But being a great artist has always been as much about talent as it is networking and promoting themselves. And I don't mean the fúcking infuriating emails and pms from soundcloud users. It means working within a local scene and making contacts, all the while concentrating on making your tunes as kick ass as possible. No one is ever going to be discovered on soundcloud, I truly believe that and the difference between the good artist and the shamless self promotion donkey is that a really good artist is going to have a certain amount of shrewdness (I mean that in the best possible way) and a bloody good inner critic.

There are people throughout history who were brilliant that we never heard because they never tried to get themselves out there.

BaZmO*

Hypertic wrote: »

...but in reality the cream rises so you'll see the top acts/djs going further in their careers than than the new laptop djs...

jtsuited wrote: »

oh don't get me wrong, i'm still firmly of the opinion that cream still rises.

A lot of sh1t also floats

Is mise le key

Android 666 wrote: »

the cream of the crop will rise to the top (to paraphrase Public Enemy). …

Was that not house of pain??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwQbPgouUYo

I havnt got much to say on this except that the intensity & love for the crowd to have a great time would appear to become distinctly absent with the advent of this 3 minute in the microwave readymix software that does it all for ya......to quote from another thread to try & gain some insight into how laptop DJ's see their part in creating an ecstatic atmosphere that blows the punters away so much that they cant think of anything else during the week but returning to the venue where you will be playing again,

PaulG1 wrote:

Ah I know that yeah, I'm not rushing in. Just getting the barings, although if you can get the equipment together, seems to be a piece of piss on a laptop!

Android 666

Is mise le key wrote: »

Was that not house of pain??

Oopps. I hangs my head in shame.

Is mise le key wrote: »

I havnt got much to say on this except that the intensity & love for the crowd to have a great time would appear to become distinctly absent with the advent of this 3 minute in the microwave readymix software that does it all for ya......to quote from another thread to try & gain some insight into how laptop DJ's see their part in creating an ecstatic atmosphere that blows the punters away so much that they cant think of anything else during the week but returning to the venue where you will be playing again,

in fairness, I think your man was setting up with the purposes of playing for weddings and the like not trying to get a banging set together. I think it highlights more the normal person's attitude to laptop DJing than it does about how laptop DJ's view of what they do themselves.

A wedding DJ isn't really trying to rock the crowd, he's looking at getting the aunties to rock the boat…

Is mise le key

Android 666 wrote: »

Oopps. I hangs my head in shame.

Yes do....but not for getting the track wrong but for associating Public Enemy with the House of pain.:D

Android 666 wrote: »

in fairness, I think your man was setting up with the purposes of playing for weddings and the like not trying to get a banging set together. I think it highlights more the normal person's attitude to laptop DJing than it does about how laptop DJ's view of what they do themselves.

A wedding DJ isn't really trying to rock the crowd, he's looking at getting the aunties to rock the boat…

Maybe he was just that i didnt see him say that he was & i took it from his user name 'PaulG1' he was referencing the Rave that was G1 many moons ago in phibsboro......perhaps i am mistaken......anyway dont let my inane posts disrupt or detract from this thread, please continue.

Android 666

Is mise le key wrote: »

Yes do....but not for getting the track wrong but for associating Public Enemy with the House of pain.:D

For some reason I thought it was Bring the Noise that PE did with Anthrax. Bloody Shameful…

Is mise le key wrote: »

Maybe he was just that i didnt see him say that he was & i took it from his user name 'PaulG1' he was referencing the Rave that was G1 many moons ago in phibsboro......perhaps i am mistaken......anyway dont let my inane posts disrupt or detract from this thread, please continue.

Nothing inane about the post. I just got the wedding impression from what he said in another thread:

PaulG1 wrote: »

Cheers for the answer flyer, at the moment I think it would be starting out small i.e. your 21sts, anniversaries, Christenings etc...so do you think that having my laptop and some decent speakers I would be well enough equipped to do gigs of this size?

Sound again for the answer, very helpful!:)

electrogrimey

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm gonna massively disagree with this. The fact that anyone (and everyone) can stick a few samples together in ableton and make a 'track' is in absolutely no way a force for good in the world.

"So, you see loads of amazing 17/18 year old guys making amazing tracks and pushing the boundaries"

Where??????????? Really, I'm curious.

Just thought of an idea......if there was a blanket ban put on selling music that was produced solely in Ableton, the average standard of music being made today would absolutely soar relative to where that average stands today.

If you randomly pick any sh1t track from the endless amounts of sh1t tracks out there on every aspiring 'dj/fashion blogger' 's myspace/facebook/soundcloud I'd say 95% of them are ableton, 3% Fruity Loops, 1%Reason and the other 1% went through the bother of learning a proper DAW but of course didn't bother noticing the fact that they have absolutely no musical or compositional talent, and as such should never be allowed near anything that might allow their talentless overambitious but uninspired ideas near the ears of any listener.

In return, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you too.

1) It's simply your opinion that Ableton is not a proper DAW. It's not a fact. There's dozens of world class producers using Ableton. Fair enough about the sketchpad element, but all you have to do is press the 'arrangement view' button, and it's pretty much the same as logic.

2) I agree with the problem of hundreds of labels starting up, that's not a good thing for the industry.

3) I don't understand how you don't think anyone having a chance to be a producer is a good thing. Do you think it should only be the rich people who can afford a €1000 worth of production equipment? What says they'll be better producers? I realise everyone producing means more **** tracks, but equally, it means more good tracks. Someone makes a great track roughly on their cheap production set-up, big label likes it, good producer who can't afford big set-up gets his track professionally mastered etc, = good track.

4) I could list a bunch of great 17/18 producers getting releases on big well respected labels, but I won't, as you'll dismiss the music as shit simply because you like a different style of dance to me.

5) Finally, it's obvious you don't want these **** producers producing. Even if they're awful, why shouldn't they be able to do it? They enjoy it, they don't get anywhere with it, and only a hundred or so people will ever hear their tracks. What's the problem with them enjoying making **** tracks as a hobby?

Stab*City

This is not a new thing.. The same happened when decks became accessible via cheaper lesser quaility TT's.. And again with cd decks.. Of course when things become more accessible more people access them. At the end of the day to me it dont matter what way a track/mix is laid down as long as the end result coming out of the speakers is good.. Thats whats going to make or break ya (that and who you know).

Its not like things were better in the old days.. There was lots of crap tunes then too.. i do accept that there is alot more now but thats obviously due to the accesability of Djing/Production methods. But the crap tunes were just as crap before digital djing came along. As for blaming ableton for all the **** out there.. few years ago they were blaming reason, before that computers, before that cd's, who knows whats next.. But this brings me to what i hate most about this artform of ours the eliteist attitude.. Djing is for everybody not just mac users.

seannash

electrogrimey wrote: »

1) It's simply your opinion that Ableton is not a proper DAW. It's not a fact. There's dozens of world class producers using Ableton. Fair enough about the sketchpad element, but all you have to do is press the 'arrangement view' button, and it's pretty much the same as logic.

i think hes saying that because of the way its very easy to loop samples together you have alot of people who just build entire tracks out of loops.

i think its kinda the same argument as the digital djing,its so easy for people to get into that everyone is doing it.they have the programme do the brunt of the work and call themselves djs

abletons guilty because its very easy to figure out and do a basic track.there is very little to learn before you have a "track" unlike in other DAW's where you do actually need to learn how to do it properly because your not relying on the looping functions

seannash

Stab*City wrote: »

At the end of the day to me it dont matter what way a track/mix is laid down as long as the end result coming out of the speakers is good.

no matter how many times i hear this i cant accept it.

would you be happy to go see a dj and have him stick on a premade cd and leave the booth for the full 2 hours.after all its whats coming out the speakers that matters

the medium does matter and its people that believe it matters that will hopefully stop the above example ever happening.

jtsuited

electrogrimey wrote: »

In return, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you too.

1) It's simply your opinion that Ableton is not a proper DAW. It's not a fact. There's dozens of world class producers using Ableton. Fair enough about the sketchpad element, but all you have to do is press the 'arrangement view' button, and it's pretty much the same as logic.

Yes obviously it's my opinion. But some opinions have more weight than others. As somebody who has used (in a full on way) Pro Tools, Cubase, Reason, Rebirth, Logic, Sonar, the old Cakewalks, and Ableton, I can tell you that ableton is not up there with Cubase or Logic when it comes to standard DAW work.
I know ableton absolutely inside out. I know what every single function does on it, and can get it to do whatever I want. It's simple and easy.

I know about 1/10th of Logic and I can do a hell of a lot more with it than I can in ableton. It's such a powerful DAW that the joke is that the only people who know the full application are the people who are certified in training it and the developers themselves. It's absolutely unbelievable in it's comprehensiveness.

If you have used both Ableton and Logic in a full on professional manner over a long time and you think Ableton is comparitive as a proper DAW, then yes we will agree to disagree. I'm not saying that as a dig, I don't know your history or extensiveness of DAW use. Feel free to correct me.

electrogrimey wrote: »

2) I agree with the problem of hundreds of labels starting up, that's not a good thing for the industry.

Ok. btw, the industry is increasingly becoming the 'industry' as it falls to pieces.

electrogrimey wrote: »

3) I don't understand how you don't think anyone having a chance to be a producer is a good thing. Do you think it should only be the rich people who can afford a €1000 worth of production equipment? What says they'll be better producers? I realise everyone producing means more **** tracks, but equally, it means more good tracks. Someone makes a great track roughly on their cheap production set-up, big label likes it, good producer who can't afford big set-up gets his track professionally mastered etc, = good track.

Woah woah woah. I have no problem with cheap setups. In fact I have a SERIOUSLY cheap setup compared to what I grew up on. I have a mbp and a set of speakers. That's really all I use these days (excluding my maschine).

Now I've highlighted what you've said which I think is wrong. It's important to think about the numbers here properly. It's average quality we are concerned with here. For every thousand sh1t tracks there's one good one. That seems about right with me. Now with 'anyone' producing tracks, that ratio will change to 10,000 to one. And as even more people who don't know their musical arse from their elbow start, ever the trend will continue.

Now you might say for every 100 people who start producing there'll be an equal amount of good ones as there was before etc. but this is wrong imo. People with actual talent are scarce in this situation. I would argue that most of this scarcity have realised by now that they're talented, and have at least played around with a cracked DAW on a computer given the world we live in nowadays.

But talentless nonmusical types are drawn to the simplicity of the process now like never before. And they're an overwhelming majority (by the definition of talent). So the ratio of good people starting to produce and sh1te people starting is going to deteriorate over time. It's simple numbers really

electrogrimey wrote: »

4) I could list a bunch of great 17/18 producers getting releases on big well respected labels, but I won't, as you'll dismiss the music as shit simply because you like a different style of dance to me.

Woah woah woah. Do you have the lotto numbers for the weekend too? That's a fairly big prediction. I'll tell you what, just name the 'big respected labels' and we'll see. Because while good and bad are subjective, the term 'respected' is a little more concrete.

Btw, I have no idea what music you're into. Oh and plenty of my favourite producers use ableton. But that's not my point.

electrogrimey wrote: »

5) Finally, it's obvious you don't want these **** producers producing. Even if they're awful, why shouldn't they be able to do it? They enjoy it, they don't get anywhere with it, and only a hundred or so people will ever hear their tracks. What's the problem with them enjoying making **** tracks as a hobby?

Ok here you are just wrong. I actually love the idea of people creating art of any kind. It's a fundamental part of being human. I can't stand people who never had a go at an artistic pursuit because they thought they weren't good at it. That's such a crime to yourself.

I'm fcukin terrible at drawing(and most people are genuinely disturbed when they witness it what given my endeavours in the musical arts) . My 2 year old nephew cried when I drew him a picture of a house, it was that bad. Whatever bits of your brain are used to draw were fcukin mangled in my head at birth I presume.

Yet every time I have a pen in my hand I 'doodle' (gayest term ever). My copybooks from school and college notes were fcuking ruined in my horrific scribbles. But I enjoy it immensely.
But I wouldn't ever try to sell my drawing. I wouldn't even put it where someone could see it. I know it's sh1t, and so I don't put it in the world. I keep it in my own personal space.

99.999% of the music I make I keep to myself. Because I don't want to put it in the world.


Not even on soundcloud. If people are in my house I'll show them stuff as a bit of a laugh if they want to hear it.

But this conscience seems to genuinely be lost on a whole generation of people who think that 'you've got to put it out there' is a valid concept. It's a retarded concept when you think about it.

It should be 'you've got to put it out there if you can hand on heart say that you think it has merit and is adding something good to the world as opposed to just adding more noise to a system that is unmanageable already'.

jtsuited

Stab*City wrote: »

few years ago they were blaming reason, before that computers, before that cd's,

You say this as if these things have validated themselves since. So........

Reason was fcukin awful and I've yet to hear a good sounding track made in it.

Computers are fine.

CD was a fcuking terrible invention, and thank fcuk it's gone.

Stab*City

seannash wrote: »

no matter how many times i hear this i cant accept it.

would you be happy to go see a dj and have him stick on a premade cd and leave the booth for the full 2 hours.after all its whats coming out the speakers that matters

the medium does matter and its people that believe it matters that will hopefully stop the above example ever happening.

Yes i would be happy if the mixing was better than his own... Dont get me wrong i love a good dj set as much as every other guy on here.. but to say that only people who use a certain medium are worth a listen is just silly.. for every guy out there making crap tracks in logic/cubase/pro tools theres another making cracking stuff in ableton/reason/fruity and vice versa.. A guy i know uses mostly ableton/headphones in his work and his tracks are being played by big name dj's.. i also know another guy who uses pro tools and logic and his stuff is being played as well.. both making savage tracks both using different tools.. its not what u use its how you use it..

jtsuited

Stab*City wrote: »

. A guy i know uses mostly ableton/headphones in his work and his tracks are being played by big name dj's..

ok i'm not saying that they;re not the most brilliant tracks ever(they might be) but the above is not in any way a meaningful endorsement anymore.

I've seen Hawtin/Garnier/Tong/etc support on the most horrific releases ever. Tracks that sold less than 20 units can get big dj support nowadays with the abuse of the promo pool system that's going on within certain circles of international dj's.

Stab*City

jtsuited wrote: »

You say this as if these things have validated themselves since. So........

Reason was fcukin awful and I've yet to hear a good sounding track made in it.

Computers are fine.

CD was a fcuking terrible invention, and thank fcuk it's gone.

The only thing that can validate any of the above is what comes out of the speakers..

seannash

Stab*City wrote: »

Yes i would be happy if the mixing was better than his own...

ah cmon,so if you paid into see(insert your favourite artist/dj) and they just announced themselves and then put on a cd and walk off you would be happy with that?

i quoted your post which said

At the end of the day to me it dont matter what way a track/mix is laid down as long as the end result coming out of the speakers is good.

it was in context to turntables getting cheaper and cd players coming onto the dj scene.
producing music,yeah use whatever is possible but as far as djing goes this hippyesque statement of"its all about what comes out of the speakers" should stop.

it will never be okay for an act to just hit play on a cd and stand back if you paid to see them perform even if what comes out of the speakers is awesome

Stab*City

jtsuited wrote: »

ok i'm not saying that they;re not the most brilliant tracks ever(they might be) but the above is not in any way a meaningful endorsement anymore.

I've seen Hawtin/Garnier/Tong/etc support on the most horrific releases ever. Tracks that sold less than 20 units can get big dj support nowadays with the abuse of the promo pool system that's going on within certain circles of international dj's.

So what is a meaningful endorsment?

But see thats the whole reason i got into this thing.. If 1 person enjoys my stuff thats worth it..

R.Shackleford

On a more serious note tho, does anyone know any good wedding djs?

TURRICAN

Stab*City wrote: »

Yes i would be happy if the mixing was better than his own... Dont get me wrong i love a good dj set as much as every other guy on here.. but to say that only people who use a certain medium are worth a listen is just silly.. for every guy out there making crap tracks in logic/cubase/pro tools theres another making cracking stuff in ableton/reason/fruity and vice versa.. A guy i know uses mostly ableton/headphones in his work and his tracks are being played by big name dj's.. i also know another guy who uses pro tools and logic and his stuff is being played as well.. both making savage tracks both using different tools.. its not what u use its how you use it..

at last we have found sombody with good music.can you please send a link or sample.cheers.

jtsuited

Stab*City wrote: »

The only thing that can validate any of the above is what comes out of the speakers..

And like I said, I have never heard a good track (what I deem good of course) made in reason.
And cd sound quality is still regarded by many as being sub par. Vinyl outlasted the cd precisely because what was coming out of the speakers was more enjoyable to a significant number of people.

Stab*City

seannash wrote: »

abletons guilty because its very easy to figure out and do a basic track.there is very little to learn before you have a "track" unlike in other DAW's where you do actually need to learn how to do it properly because your not relying on the looping functions

Thats the beauty of things like ableton not the downfall. If you found it so easy to learn than you will also know how to use it without depending on looping.. But ableton is just a tool.. a crap track in ableton is also a crap track in logic.

TURRICAN

jtsuited wrote: »

And like I said, I have never heard a good track (what I deem good of course) made in reason.
And cd sound quality is still regarded by many as being sub par. Vinyl outlasted the cd precisely because what was coming out of the speakers was more enjoyable to a significant number of people.

true.vinyl made the chords etc sound like there were actually instruments that could make these sounds.
digital just sounds blippy all the time.

seannash

Stab*City wrote: »

Thats the beauty of things like ableton not the downfall. If you found it so easy to learn than you will also know how to use it without depending on looping.. But ableton is just a tool.. a crap track in ableton is also a crap track in logic.

yes a crap track in any DAW is a crap track my point is people who dont have a real interest will not be able to make a crap track in logic because they wouldnt dedicate the time it takes to learn it.

but in ableton the loop feature allows people to bang together a track in no time once you learn how to warp.

im not bashing ableton im saying its definitely contributing to the amount of ****e out there because it is so easy to loop samples together.people see this one feature and abuse it to make "tracks"

electrogrimey

jtsuited wrote: »

Your reply to me

Don't want to quote the whole thing, but anyway.

I'm talking about guys producing tracks (I know from chatting to these guys) with just a DAW, a pair of headphones, in some cases not even a MIDI keyboard, and getting releases on labels like Turbo Records, Anabatic, Southern Fried Records, and Fake Blood (DJ Sneak)'s new label, Blood Records. I think that's brilliant.

The 'equally more good tracks' thing was you just misreading me, I didn't mean an equal amount of good tracks to **** tracks, I know there's probably hundreds of times more bad tracks than good. I meant 'but equally' in the 'also' sense.

I agree that the people who make **** tracks and then 'share' them to hundreds of people on soundcloud are twats, but that's not the majority of bedroom producers. I have friends that make tracks than only I and maybe a couple of others have heard, and that's only because I was interested.