Are you optimistic in relation to the future of the Irish language?

DJP

My mother and I recently made the decision to speak Irish to one another every day. I am around 80% fluent in the language and she is around 90% fluent in the language. That we are not totally fluent is somewhat disadvantageous but speaking it every day I am picking it up a lot faster. We speak it about half of the time and the other half we speak English. Generally we speak in English for the more technical conversations and often when we want to be blunt although we can be blunt speaking Irish also. As an ex-Irish teacher of mine from secondary school said to me before Irish is more of a cultural language than it is an economic one. Visiting Gaoth Dobhair in Donegal recently and speaking to a few of the young people there I was struck by how dominant English is in some ways. Most of the young people have Irish and speak it to their parents but when they are out together there is usually at least one person amongst them who does not speak Irish so they speak in English. Irish is the "home language" amongst most of the young people. Several factors determine why they speak English together the one I named being the largest reason.

Before the end of the year the first ever 20 Year National Strategy for the Irish Language will be coming out. I am an optimist so even though I know that a strategy should have come out 90 years ago I am optimistic about it. Our of the 33 recommendations that the Oireachtas Joint-Committee made on the Strategy 12 stick out to me as being very good.

Unfortunately there won't be as much money spent on the Irish language with the economic situation but an announcement by Minister Pat Carey that he is going to restructure the Irish Language Sector is welcome so we may hopefully get more value for money.

Off the top of my head the best developments that fill me with optimism and happiness are:

1) Irish is now an official language of the EU.
2) We now have Raidió Fáilte broadcasting throughout the day in Irish in Belfast and we have Raidió na Life in Dublin.
3) TG4.
4) The continued loyalty of Gaeltacht people to Raidió na Gaeltachta. They naturally view the station as being their local radio station.
5) The opening of Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich. in Belfast and last year Cultúlann Uí Chánáin in Derry.
6) In a majority of the South a signficiant, in several counties a large, number of new residential developments were named in Irish during the property boom. Councillors in Dublin City, South Dublin County Council and Navan have also voted to name all their new residential developments in Irish in their new Development Plans. The policies already exist in Galway City and Shannon.
7) From this year 40% of the Leaving Certificate Irish exam is going on oral Irish.
8) Na gaelscoileanna.
9) Of course the recommendations so far from the Oireachtas Joint-Committee on the 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language. The best 12 recommendations that stick out to me are:

"5.
Assign the following functions to the restructured Údarás na Gaeltachta / na Gaeilge (Section 4.3):-
A primary role in planning and housing matters within the Gaeltacht;
Regularly review the effectiveness of the available housing grants within the Gaeltacht;
Gather information on effective new enterprises by co-operative societies in order to identify and disseminate best practice with a special emphasis on enterprises that encourage community participation and activity;
Design work experience programmes both inside and outside the Gaeltacht that are directed at university students and especially at students who have graduated in Irish.

7.
Restructure An Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta as a statutory body with defined powers in relation to representing the views and suggestions of stakeholders in the Irish language in regard to the formulation of education policies for the Gaeltacht and the Irish language Communities (Section 5.1).

9.
The Department of Education and Skills ensures the adequate availability of Irish language schools to all communities in Ireland when it is deciding on the establishment and location of new schools (Section 5.3.1).

10.
Develop a new syllabus for Irish from junior infants to the Leaving Certificate that will take account of the different developmental language requirements for native speakers, students who are being educated through the medium of the Irish language and other proficient Irish language students (Section 5.3.2).

12.
Provide a new school subject entitled ‘Irish Arts and Literature’ (Section 4.3.4).

19.
Confirm the building of a National Education centre in Baile Bhuirne (Section 5.5).

23.
Commit the Strategy to providing a Family Support Centre in every large Gaeltacht community (Section 6.3).

26.
Locate a City and Regional Social Centre in Dublin City, which will provide Arts, Cafeteria and other relevant facilities that will facilitate the functioning of a social network for the youth of Dublin and the surrounding counties (Section 6.4).

29.
Encourage the establishment of a social network for young people throughout the Gaeltacht that operates through the medium of Irish (Section 6.7).

30.
Include the provision of regular language information campaigns as a part of the Strategy (Section 6.8).

31.
Oversee, as a priority, the establishment of a social network for young people that will operate through the medium of Irish (Section 7.2).

33.
Local Authorities must ensure that all road signs and street name signs are bi-lingual and that in respect of the Irish and English text, the Irish text is at least as conspicuous, as visible and as readable as the English text (Section 7.4)."

For all of these reasons I am optimistic in relation to the future of the Irish language. There are probably other reasons why I am optimistic but I cannot think of them off of my head at the moment. Are you?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Ro fhada; ní léigh mé é.

bonerm

Joshua Aggressive Ant wrote: »

Ro fhada; ní léigh mé é.

aga!

karlog

Joshua Aggressive Ant wrote: »

Ro fhada; ní léigh mé é.

What?

Superbus

karlog wrote: »

What?

Really?


Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, hell no.

phasers

I'm optimistic that it will soon die out

karlog

Sure it's as dead as the Welsh language. No reason to speak it in everyday life, other than the fact that it's our culture, so no one will bother to learn it.

chin_grin

karlog wrote: »

What?

= tl;dr in our own words. Well originally.

d.anthony

In Scotland we got rid of the language long ago, in the central belt anyway... Good riddance to it... Personally, I think gaelic is a horrible sounding language.

It will die out in Ireland soon enough.

alwaysadub

Níl optimism orm.

Fcuk it,i tried!

DJP

d.anthony wrote: »

It will die out in Ireland soon enough.

How could it possibly die out with when we have over 200 gaelscoileanna and other pockets of Irish speakers?

MightyMighty737

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

How could it possibly die out with when we have over 200 gaelscoileanna and other pockets of Irish speakers?

Just over 5% of all schools.


It's more or less gone apart from the few Gaeltacht regions.

Killer Pigeon

Ró-fhada ; ná léigh. (féach, d'úsáid mé an gramadach ceart freisin, nach bhfuil mé comh cliste )

:P

I think it's inevitable, especially with the 'dumbening' down of the Irish education system, that the Irish language will die out in about a hundred years. It certainly won't survive for over 9,000 years more.

biko

It will always have a back seat to Béarla but hopefully won't die.
The Galway radio station i102-104 mixes both languages and seems popular enough.

LimeFruitGum

If it weren't so tied up in useless bureaucratic schemes and quangos, maybe. You couldn't pay me to listen to RnaG. It is so fecking boring.

A Brazilian friend is learning Irish and he is doing so well. He often writes emails to me in Irish now and I'll talk away to him as Gaeilge for practice. He has been living here for almost 10 years and wants to learn the language.

I suppose if there were more people like him, who approach it from a fresh aspect and without any school-related hangups, then maybe the language will keep going for another generation.

DJP

MightyMighty737 wrote: »

Just over 5% of all schools.

And?

The gaelscoileanna are good pockets for the Irish language. A problem is that most of the parents that send their kids there don't speak the language. When the kids have kids and send them there there will be more people speaking Irish outside of the education system.

MightyMighty737 wrote: »

It's more or less gone apart from the few Gaeltacht regions.

???

Four-Percent

I can't see it lasting much longer if insulting it in AH gets as much kudos as it does nowadays...the vitriol will never end.

Superbus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA0a62wmd1A

Chuchoter

It would do a hell of a lot better if they made it optional at second level for LC. Then people who were half way decent wouldn't get bogged down by people who hate the language. The classes are huge.

DJP

crayolastereo wrote: »

It would do a hell of a lot better if they made it optional at second level for LC. Then people who were half way decent wouldn't get bogged down by people who hate the language. The classes are huge.

Fine Gael and Labour are in favour of making it optional. They will be in Government after the next GE.

TPD

Change the education system to teach conversational Irish rather than poems etc., and have less emphasis on a written paper and more on an oral exam. I wouldn't be too suprised if it grew in popularity then.

ricero

the language is dead well in dublin where i live anyway its a useless language for the 21st century. its now only spoke by old people, ira members, culchie snobs and losers .

English is a brilliant language

plein de force

Make it optional!

DJP

crayolastereo wrote: »

It would do a hell of a lot better if they made it optional at second level for LC. Then people who were half way decent wouldn't get bogged down by people who hate the language. The classes are huge.

I am new to posting on this site. The response to this thread so far generally makes me think that you are right.

ricero

course oppitional would be so much better the classes would be smaller and easier for students to interact and intake more information. in my irish class half the lads would just give the language stick and keep asking the teacher why we even need the bloody language. and yes i was one of them lads

Pure_Cork

I hated Irish in school but I'd love to be able to use it. I will make an effort to learn it and become reasonably fluent some day.

Prof.Badass

I am optimistic that it will die out soon, freeing up schooltime to teach kids things that actually matter in life, like basic science. This would also tie in nicely with doing philosophy (based mostly on class discussions) instead of religion :cool:.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

It won't die, there will always be people who want to speak it, and there are still plenty of native speakers around, I know lots, so I think it's here for the forseeable future.
I plan to be reasonably fluent within the next 3 years, not because I think I should or any of that nonsense, I just want to, and I think there's lots like that

Making it a compulsory subject for LC does it absolutely no favours though...

DJP

Hopefully the Tánaiste will give official recognition to the two campaigns trying to start two new second-level gaelscoileanna in Dublin.

SkepticOne

It will never be a national language except on paper. It will continue to be an enthusiasts language among a small number of people. It will continue to be taught in schools and create minor resentment among those who are not particularly interested in languages. Radio and television programmes will continue to be be produced on a subsidised basis. It will still be a requirement for certain jobs (though most of those jobs won't require for the performance of that job) and entry into certain universities (on courses that won't require it once entered).

Optimistic or pessimistic? Depends on your point of view. The Irish language enthusiast might think the above a very optimistic scenario.

Wibbs

Do I think it will die out? No, nor do I think it'll become a second language either. It seems to go in waves as far as popularity goes. Irish schools are a good start, but people forget we had them before in the 40's and 50's. My mother was schooled through Irish. In Dublin as well and she hasn't a word of it. I reckon all things being equal the same proportion will speak it fluently in 20 years as they do now.

ricero wrote:

its now only spoke by old people, ira members, culchie snobs and losers .

This is a very common perception. That republicans, rural types and backward types are it's fan base.

My issue is that there is some truth to this. It's often used as a stick to beat those some think aren't truly Irish unless they speak it. Often those who claim to can't or not near fluently. It would tend to be a more rural things. I'd include second generation rural types in urban centres in that. I would not agree about the backward jibe though.

The other issue I have is that the majority of new speakers are not fluent. Nor in one way can they ever be. If I live in France for 20 years I'll be fluent in French, but a local will know I'm not French. I refuse to speak a somewhat forced homogenised version of a language that objectively marks me out as a stranger in my own country just to appease those who want to continue it either as a museum piece or some concept of Irishness. If it does evolve and become popular among the majority then great. If not so what? We'll still have the signage for the yank tourists.

English is a brilliant language

It's one of the better ones as a communication medium alright. Very adaptable. Then again look to your first sentence. In English it should read "It's now only spoken by..."

Wibbs

d.anthony wrote: »

In Scotland we got rid of the language long ago, in the central belt anyway... Good riddance to it... Personally, I think gaelic is a horrible sounding language.

It will die out in Ireland soon enough.

Ironically Scots gaelic came about because of an Irish cultural invasion from the 6th century on. Before that you spoke various pictish languages. The Irish monastery tradition that brought learning, literacy and commerce did so in Irish. So the pictish languages died out in the face of it. Sounds familiar to English in Ireland.

ricero

It's one of the better ones as a communication medium alright. Very adaptable. Then again look to your first sentence. In English it should read "It's now only spoken by..."[/QUOTE]

apologies that is my skanger Dublin grammar coming into play

Diabhal Beag

It's dying drastically every year. The newer generations aren't speaking it to one another even in the Gaeltacht sadly.

PeterIanStaker

There are a lot of self hating postcolonial uncle tom types in this country who associate it with backwardness, subversive tendencies or both. The problem is that these types pervade this country's media.

I'd like to see Irish used more, but of course that means the Garda Special Branch are going to beat the sh!t out of me.

GizAGoOfYerGee

It is clear that Irish is dying out in the Gaeltacht. You only need to look at the recent census figures. And as you pointed out, very few children speak it amongst themselves, only at home.

So, as a native language, it will most certainly die out.

I think the fate of the Irish language rests on the education system. What we have now is a majority population who resent the language because of the atrocious curriculum.

Yes, Irish people may want to speak it, but that boat has already sailed for many, and they are left with a bad taste for the language from school. I was one of these people, but I started going to evening classes a few years ago because I felt that it was an important part of my identity. Unfortunately, I am a minority. Many of my friends would love to speak it, they are just not willing to put the time in to learn it "properly" now.

The gaelscoileanna are in huge demand but there simply isn´t enough of them. We need to double the amount of gaelscoileanna over the next 20 years.

In relation to the LC, I don´t think that 40% oral is enough. It should be 60-70% oral, mixed with Irish cultural activities.

If Irish does become optional for the LC, the vast majority of students would drop it. Keep it compulsory for now. If it is clear after 10 years that the new curriculum is not working, make it optional.

natsuko

I think they should give up forcing everyone to learn it, at least make it optional after JC. I know so many people that hated it in school and went on to regret not putting more effort in, including myself, can just about understand reading and hearing it but could never speak it. Definately should focus on conversational skills more in the teaching. There should also be more adult irish classes available (advanced and recreational), and if they are already there, they should be better advertised. And they have to stop thinking that it's so important that if it does die out its going to be a disaster. Nothing bad will happen. It will never be forgotten, someone will always be interested in it.

Prof.Badass

A lot of parents send their kids to gaelscoils purely from a points point of view. You get bonus marks in the LC for most subjects if you do them through Irish not to mention the fact that it improves your irish (for the LC of course :rolleyes:).

I see set culture and tradition mostly as a way of keeping different groups of people apart. At the end of the day we're all the same species. I'm not saying it's not nice to have some sort of sense of history and identity, but things change over generations. If something's worth keeping then it'll survive of it's own accord. If you have to put in heaps of effort to try and preserve something, what's the point?

Why does one way of doing things deserve to be held up above all others? Let people do what they want!

10,000 years ago our ancestors were hunter-gatherers. In 1,000 years with a bit of luck we'll be exploring the galaxy.
In the grand scheme of things it just seems silly to live a less than optimal life out of "duty" to some sort of formalised and romanticised "tradition".

gizmo

I'm optimistic that:

• It will become optional once you either enter the secondary cycle or finish the Junior Cert.
• Becomes, as mentioned above, more about conversational Irish rather than the horrible reliance on poetry.
• Grants to those living in Gaeltacht areas end. If you want to live there or learn Irish, good for you but you shouldn't get paid for it.
• Extra points/marks awarded to those sitting the Leaving Cert in Irish also ends. Same logic as above, if you want to do it in that language good for you but you shouldn't get extra marks for it.
• It will no longer be a requirement to enter the Civil Service.

Chuchoter

I also think that the new oral 40% is highly elitist. The only way you can get a good mark in the oral is if you have the cash to fork out for gaeltachts and grinds every year. If you can't pay for that then you don't get the mark.

syklops

I love this bit:

Unfortunately there won't be as much money spent on the Irish language with the economic situation .....

Must be the only language in the world that needs funding.

Celly Smunt

the only way to keep it alive is to bring it back to a local level,school isn't going to work alone

Mr Benevolent

No, I don't give a flying **** about the future of the Irish language, it's irrelevant to our lives and has been for some time. Learning German or French is far, far more important and useful.

Celly Smunt

Confab wrote: »

No, I don't give a flying **** about the future of the Irish language, it's irrelevant to our lives and has been for some time. Learning German or French is far, far more important and useful.

you do realise those languages are available?

partyatmygaff

pmcmahon wrote: »

you do realise those languages are available?

Tbh, i'd rather we learned some non-latin origin language like Arabic or Japanese/Chinese rather than Irish. A hell of a lot more useful anyway.

Yet here I am writing an essay on "Daoine atá i mbéal an phobail" *sigh*

Celly Smunt

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Tbh, i'd rather we learned some non-latin origin language like Arabic or Japanese/Chinese rather than Irish. A hell of a lot more useful anyway.

Yet here I am writing an essay on "Daoine atá i mbéal an phobail" *sigh*

also available

3DataModem

Prof.Badass wrote: »

... things change over generations. If something's worth keeping then it'll survive of it's own accord. If you have to put in heaps of effort to try and preserve something, what's the point?.

Well said. Archive the books, preserve plenty of audio etc for future generations then let it die.

partyatmygaff

pmcmahon wrote: »

also available

Eh, i'm in sixth year and believe me, if there had been any opportunity to learn one of those languages rather than Irish I would have took it up immediately. Somehow I don't think you're getting the point of my post, I said learn Arabic/Japanese/Chinese rather than Irish. I know well enough you could learn every single language available on the LC but you'd still have to do Irish.

Posy

I think the only way to revive Irish would be to have all primary and secondary schooling in Irish. I'm sure it wouldn't really be feasible or achievable.. or a popular move, but it's the only way I can think of to get the next generation speaking the language.

pmcmahon wrote: »

you do realise those languages are available?

By the time I was made to learn French in secondary school, I hated Irish so much that was reaction was 'NOOO, not another language, I'm NOT listening!'

I think it's a good language and I would like to learn it now as an adult, but logically it wouldn't be any use to me in my daily life, whereas at least if I was to learn French/Spanish/German it'd come in handy at some stage.

Precious flower

I hate learning it, the lanuage is badly taught in schools but I would love to be able to speak it fluently!:(

Killer Pigeon

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Tbh, i'd rather we learned some non-latin origin language like Arabic or Japanese/Chinese rather than Irish.

Irish doesn't have it's origins in Latin, it's a Celtic language, neither does English (Germanic). French, Spanish, Italian, etc.. do. I think you mean Indo-European origin languages.