Brian Cowen or Bertie Ahern?

Rebelheart

OK. I much prefer the style of Cowen - that gruff, anti-media (comparatively speaking), direct, fúck the spindoctors (relatively speaking) style.

I detest Patrick Bartholomew Ahern but more than that I get the distinct impression that Cowen is the scapegoat for so much of what Ahern presided over. That "interview" by Tubridy of Ahern was shameful. Ahern got a free ride to promote his book to idiots who'd buy it.

For that scapegoat factor I do have some sympathy with Cowen - even though after Ahern and McCreevy he is most responsible for our current predicament.

I'd just like to know am I on my own in thinking Cowen is to a large degree a scapegoat for these two people.

PS: There are no polls on this forum it seems! Crap!

maynooth_rules

A choice between an inept over promoted fool, or a corrupt, scrounging weasel. Fantastic.

I think Biffo is simply not cut out for the job and is so far out of his depth that it is embarrassing, but i dont think he is a bad man.
Bertie is the epitome of everything that is wrong with this state of ours.

gandalf

None of the above!

Colonel Sanders

gandalf wrote: »

None of the above!

+1,000,000

jpfahy

maynooth_rules wrote: »

A choice between an inept over promoted fool, or a corrupt, scrounging weasel. Fantastic.

I think Biffo is simply not cut out for the job and is so far out of his depth that it is embarrassing, but i dont think he is a bad man.
Bertie is the epitome of everything that is wrong with this state of ours.

+1

Liam Byrne

"Brian Cowen or Bertie Ahern" ..... for what ? What are we supposed to be "voting" on ?

Is it "Brian Cowen or Bertie Ahern as the author of our demise" ?

neaideabh

Brian Cowen.

lugha

I happen to think Cowen is doing reasonably well (leaving aside his contribution to the mess in the first place, which of course nobody will!)

He has succeeded in administering unpleasant medicine, in particular to the public sector (no easy task as they had gotten very used to their tiger comforts), and has done this with virtually no industrial unrest. So far!

galwayrush

lugha wrote: »

I happen to think Cowen is doing reasonably well (leaving aside his contribution to the mess in the first place, which of course nobody will!)

He has succeeded in administering unpleasant medicine, in particular to the public sector (no easy task as they had gotten very used to their tiger comforts), and has done this with virtually no industrial unrest. So far!

Bloody hell, FF caused almost all the **** ups and tried to deny the problem until they had no choice but to admit it. it's a bit like someone stabs you 50 times and then try and add a plaster to 2 or 3 of the wounds to try and save you .

edit, important to mention, most of the 'tough decisions' have affected the most vunerable in society, another 'tough decision' involved awarding the people running Anglo a pay rise.

johndaman66

I'm with gandalf and Colonel Sanders...neither of em. To those who reckon Cowen is the fallguy or scapegoat I strongly disagree. Afterall he was the minister for finance when much of this wrongdoing was taking place. But thats not to exonerate Ahern either. In fact hes rotten and corrupt to the core if you if you ask me.

Ulysses Gaze

fterall he was the minister for finance when much of this wrongdoing was taking place. But thats not to exonerate Ahern either. In fact hes rotten and corrupt to the core if you if you ask me.

+1

He can't play innocent as he was, essentially, second in command to Ahern when McCreevy was heaved.

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Brian Cowen or Bertie Ahern" ..... for what ? What are we supposed to be "voting" on ?

Is it "Brian Cowen or Bertie Ahern as the author of our demise" ?

Lads, the choice does not include "neither of them" for a very good reason: I'm trying to ascertain which of these two men most people blame for the current crisis.

If you want to make up your own questions feel free to feck off and do so.

View

If you are asking which do I prefer, I'd opt for Brian Cowen.

If you are asking who to blame, I'd actually lay much of it at the feet of Charlie McCreevy. He set the economic policies in motion that led to the fool's gold of an economic boom we had. This is not to say others are blameless though for not asking tougher questions sooner.

Seth Brundle

Dustin FTW!

lugha wrote: »

I happen to think Cowen is doing reasonably well (leaving aside his contribution to the mess in the first place, which of course nobody will!)

He has succeeded in administering unpleasant medicine, in particular to the public sector (no easy task as they had gotten very used to their tiger comforts), and has done this with virtually no industrial unrest. So far!

You make it sound like its all over!
Personally, I think its only starting!

jmayo

lugha wrote: »

I happen to think Cowen is doing reasonably well (leaving aside his contribution to the mess in the first place, which of course nobody will!)

Jeeze that is one big item you are leaving aside.
Ah but shure don't we all know it was Lehman's fault. :rolleyes:

lugha wrote: »

He has succeeded in administering unpleasant medicine, in particular to the public sector (no easy task as they had gotten very used to their tiger comforts), and has done this with virtually no industrial unrest. So far!

Wasn't he the one that wanted to give the public sector 2 weeks extra holidays rather than a pay cut ?

Rebelheart wrote: »

Lads, the choice does not include "neither of them" for a very good reason: I'm trying to ascertain which of these two men most people blame for the current crisis.

If you want to make up your own questions feel free to feck off and do so.

That choice as to which was most responsible for the mess is a bit like the choice of getting either sean fortune or brendan smith to babysit your kids.

Is this the new thing that ff are trying to find a scapegoat and the choice is either bertie or cowen ?

P. Breathnach

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'm trying to ascertain which of these two men most people blame for the current crisis.

They both contributed, and so did a good many other people. I think it is a bad idea to try to identify a single scapegoat, because it tends to deflect attention from others who should also share in the blame.

jmayo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

They both contributed, and so did a good many other people. I think it is a bad idea to try to identify a single scapegoat, because it tends to deflect attention from others who should also share in the blame.

Funny how I have been noticing ffers moving in a direction where one of the main players looks like being made a scapegoat for all the decisons and all the policies.

IMHO they are begining to realise blaming Lehmans and the internation downturn due to subprime no longer washes with the masses, they have resorted to "we are all to blame" but that is really pi**ing off the poor sods who are in deep debt and the ones who never borrowed at all, so next thing will be they are going to make a sacrifical offering of one of their own.
All of course if's for the benefit of the party and part of the SOS (save our seats) plan for the soon to be GE.

At the moment the choice looks like cowen or ahern.
But when the rats on the sinking ship realise both are a liability to be associated with they will distance themselves from both.

hinault

Neither.


Ahern and Cowen are the product of the same political Haughey spawn.

aidan24326

Cowen seems a decent enough guy who is just not suited to the job he's doing. He appears out of his depth in the leading role.

Bertie was/is a little weasel with no redeeming features.

As for which is more to blame, I think the fingerprints of both are to be found all over our current problems, though of course there are many others to blame also.

johndaman66

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'm trying to ascertain which of these two men most people blame for the current crisis.

I think thats a question without a single right answer to be fair. Both of them are very much to blame along with other political figures before and during their tenures as Taoiseach.

In fact look at it another way and blame yourself if you are one of these people who voted for Fianna Fail along the way. If you didn't fair enough. It gets my wick people protesting about Fianna Fails wrong doings, when all along they were voting for them in General elections up until now. I can hold my hands up and say I always realised they were crooks down through the years but that doesn't make me anyway special either. Fianna Fail really epitomises this parochial style of politics we have in Ireland... you scratch my back I scratch yours, bypass the relavant authorities for the bigger guys as long as I see my brown envelope at the Galway races etc etc etc. In the interests of democracy the sooner we move away from this backward style the better.

Nodferatu

i don't like either of them, but NOBODY seems to remember it was BERTIE AHERNIA that was in power and running the country to the lead up of the recession, HE was the one running the country and got out just in the nick of time, he runs off and hides in his little fox's den just before country's meltdown. he gets off scoff free nothing said to him, but cowen gets the abuse and the angry public because he is in power now. but i dislike both me, i think cowen has made many mistakes too and i think we went from bad to worse with taoiseach's

dan_d

Biffo.

He does speak sense 8 out of 10 times. When he bothers to speak. I think he could work on telling us a bit more, but the man is actually halfway intelligent.

Ahern is slimy and delusional. This opinion was reinforced even further by an interview I read in the Indo with him last week - he actually believes he left the country in perfect condition, no problems, and had he not stepped down, things would be fine. He genuinely believes it.

I'd rather someone who doesn't pander to the media, and occasionally speaks sense - and owns up to mistakes - than someone who is run by spin doctors and puts on a show everyday while nothing can ever be proven to be stuck to him. Has Bertie Ahern ever once said he did something wrong?Ever? Even admitted that that banana yellow suit was a mistake???

Liam Byrne

dan_d wrote: »

Ahern is slimy and delusional. This opinion was reinforced even further by an interview I read in the Indo with him last week - he actually believes he left the country in perfect condition, no problems, and had he not stepped down, things would be fine. He genuinely believes it.

I had a thread about this before, and it looks like my gut feeling about Ahern in that thread was correct, so; the delusion makes him think that he's popular and great.

The lunatics are indeed running the asylum.

Essexboy

aidan24326 wrote: »

Cowen seems a decent enough guy who is just not suited to the job he's doing. He appears out of his depth in the leading role.

Bertie was/is a little weasel with no redeeming features.

As for which is more to blame, I think the fingerprints of both are to be found all over our current problems, though of course there are many others to blame also.

Cowen seems a decent enough guy

Cowen is a classic dyed-in the-wool FFer, a throwback to the 1950s etc. when loyalty to the party overrode all other considerations

Just look at FAS and Rody Molloy. First, Biffo praised Molloy as an excellent public servant who he had "full confidence in", then gave him a huge payment to go away.
This was a golden opportunity for Biffo to break with the past and set a new course for the country but he did not. He could not because he is stuck in a timewarp and cannot conceive of any society other than the one which he worked.

bmaxi

It's impossible to separate them. As I have said elsewhere, when Cowen succeeded Ahern he had the opportunity to weed out all the dead weight in the Cabinet but chose not to. That suggests to me that he thinks along the same lines as Ahern. The debacle during the week was further evidence of the contemptuous attitude he takes toward the office and the country, yet another similarity with Ahern.