Confession Question

Steyr

Hi all, just a quick one, if you go to Confession and you confess to whatever etc is the owness on the Priest to keep everything to themselves? Would they be legally/morally obliged to inform Authority figures of misdeeds etc??

Im not really much of a Religious kind of person so find the whole idea behind Confession to be utterly interesting as while passing a local Church you usually see times advertised for Confession. And no i havent done anything:p


Anybody able to shed some light?

Kindest Regards,

Dave.

PDN

No, they are not allowed to pass any information on to the authorities. The confidentiality of the confessional in the RC Church is absolute.

georgieporgy

the Seal of Confession is absolutely binding on the priest. He can't speak about anything heard in the confessional , even with yourself should you meet up for a chat later (unless you give permission to do so).

It isn't the priest's job to be a policeman or social worker. However he may suggest you turn yourself over to the authorities if you have done something horrendous like setting fire to an old folks home and killing all inside. You go to confession to get absolution. You can't get that if you are not sorry and intend to mend your ways. And this would often include taking yourself round to the cops and owning up.

if you don't show contrition /sorrow etc, the priest must withold absolution so you are no further ahead. He can't tell anybody though.

CORRECTION TO PARAGRAPH 2; the priest cannot make going to the cops a condition for receiving absolution. he cannot do anything that would reveal the penitent's sin so that includes asking the penitent to do so. The penitent may be truly sorry for his misdeed but afraid to own up in public.

Steyr

Thank you for the informative replies.

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

No, they are not allowed to pass any information on to the authorities. The confidentiality of the confessional in the RC Church is absolute.

What if the person making confession confesses to a crime. Is the priest legally or morally required to inform the relevant authorities?
Genuine question. I cant find any ref' to it online.

mathepac

Ghost Buster wrote: »

What if the person making confession confesses to a crime. ...

" ... The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason... "

Sorry, I need to expand here - "crime" in this context is a Canon law crime.

From here - http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Ghost Buster

mathepac wrote: »

" ... The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason... "

Sorry, I need to expand here - "crime" in this context is a Canon law crime.

From here - http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Is that recognised by the law of the land. If not then is canon law some how considered above the law of the land by the church??

Ciaran500

Am I legally obliged to report to the authorities if I hear of a serious crime?

Herbal Deity

I don't know for definite, but AFAIK, legally speaking, it is perverting the course of justice and technically, the priest may be prosecuted.

There's probably some kind of exemption though, given that this is Catholic Ireland after all.

PDN

I don't know about Irish law, but in the US there is a clear distinction between:
a) An adult confessing a crime in the confessional and
b) Someone who has a 'duty of care for children' hearing about a crime in the confessional.

So, if a stranger in the confessional admits that he has molested his daughter, there is no legal obligation to report it, no more than if you heard the same guy saying the same thing in the pub. Of course we may well feel that there is an ethical obligation - which is why most non-Catholic denominations mandate their clergy to report such things to the police.

However, if one priest in a parish confesses that he has molested a child in parish activities, then the priest hearing his confession would be deemed to have a duty of care, and therefore is legally obliged to report it.

greyheron

A confessor cannot reveal anything of the confession. He can't even talk to the penitent about it unless the penitent raises the subject himself. He cannot with-hold absolution on condition that the penitent turn themselves in to law enforcement. Nor can he tell the police himself. He can tell no-one, not even in the case PDN gave above. Priests will go to jail to protect the seal of the confessional.

He can compel the person to make amends, such as release the person locked in your basement, or return stolen money, but he cannot withhold absolution on condition that the person turn themselves in to law enforcement.

The relevant Canon Law is here:

Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.

Can. 984 §1. A confessor is prohibited completely from using knowledge acquired from confession to the detriment of the penitent even when any danger of revelation is excluded.

§2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.

Ghost Buster

greyheron wrote: »

A confessor cannot reveal anything of the confession. He cannot with-hold absolution on condition that the penitent turn themselves in to law enforcement. Nor can he tell the police himself. He can tell no-one.

He can compel the person to make amends, such as release the person locked in your basement, or return stolen money, but he cannot withhold absolution on condition that the person turn themselves in to law enforcement.

The relevant Canon Law is here:

Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.

Can. 984 §1. A confessor is prohibited completely from using knowledge acquired from confession to the detriment of the penitent even when any danger of revelation is excluded.

§2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.

Yes but does canon law count. Can all religions use their own laws to dodge following the law of the land?

PDN

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes but does canon law count. Can all religions use their own laws to dodge following the law of the land?

No, they can't. Canon law is subordinate to civil law.

greyheron

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes but does canon law count. Can all religions use their own laws to dodge following the law of the land?

The priest cannot reveal to anyone the sins he has learned of in confession, for any reason. No exceptions. The seal is inviolable.

greyheron

I found a fascinating article on this issue.

In the USA there is the priest-penitent privelage (sp?), which some states are attempting to revoke.

The Church teaches that what is shared by the sinner in confession is shared and forgiven by Christ Himself in the person of the priest. It is totally protected by the seal and cannot be broken for any reason whatsoever. A priest who breaks the seal incurs automatic excommunication. The laws of God supersedes the laws of the state.

read it yourself: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0628.html

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

No, they can't. Canon law is subordinate to civil law.

greyheron wrote: »

The priest cannot reveal to anyone the sins he has learned of in confession, for any reason. No exceptions. The seal is inviolable.

Im sorry. Thats two conflicting answers. I understand that, under canon law which only applies to the church the priest is not supposed to obey the law of the land but ummmmm he is still required to follow the law of the land by the law of the land. If every religion cult decided to make up their own laws and presume that the super cede common law there would be chaos!!!
Im guessing that PDNs answer is the correct one.

greyheron

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Im sorry. Thats two conflicting answers. I understand that, under canon law which only applies to the church the priest is not supposed to obey the law of the land but ummmmm he is still required to follow the law of the land by the law of the land. If every religion cult decided to make up their own laws and presume that the super cede common law there would be chaos!!!
Im guessing that PDNs answer is the correct one.

You'd be wrong. Read the article I linked to.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0628.html

Priests will go to jail or be killed before breaking the seal, and have done so.

Ghost Buster

greyheron wrote: »

The priest cannot reveal to anyone the sins he has learned of in confession, for any reason. No exceptions. The seal is inviolable.

You cannot say "no exceptions" if canon law does not super cede state law.
Are you implying that canon law gets some sort of special recognition in state law?"

Sorry. MY previous post and your reply seemed to vanish for a moment. That link is shocking and more than ever I want to see a separation of church and state.
But is the case the same in ireland. Is canon law given special status by the state?

mathepac

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I don't know for definite, but AFAIK, legally speaking, it is perverting the course of justice and technically, the priest may be prosecuted....

That makes no sense at all.

The priest would be prosecuted by whom and on what evidence? How would this crime come to light, and if it did come to light, why would anyone be interested in prosecuting the priest (assuming they could) rather than prosecuting the person who committed the original (confessed) crime?

dvpower

greyheron wrote: »

The priest cannot reveal to anyone the sins he has learned of in confession, for any reason. No exceptions. The seal is inviolable.

You're talking about canon law, not state law here, right?
So, I guess the question is; is there a provision in Irish law that protects a priest for resusing to report a normally reportable offence?

Anyway, I wonder what would happen if someone declared their intention to set off a dirty nuclear bomb in a large city? Still no exception?

Ghost Buster wrote: »

What if the person making confession confesses to a crime. Is the priest legally or morally required to inform the relevant authorities?
Genuine question. I cant find any ref' to it online.

Or, maybe more importantly, if the person confesses his intention to commit a crime.

Ghost Buster

mathepac wrote: »

That makes no sense at all.

The priest would be prosecuted by whom and on what evidence? How would this crime come to light, and if it did come to light, why would anyone be interested in prosecuting the priest (assuming they could) rather than prosecuting the person who committed the original (confessed) crime?

(1) The issue isnt whether or not it can be proven with evidence that the priest broke the law. Simply whether he is breaking the law or not. Hypothetically if the confessional was bugged then could the priest be lifted by the police... sheesh!
(2) The confessor would of course be prosecuted for the crime THEY committed (not the priest) but could the priest be prosecuted for with holding information

greyheron

dvpower wrote: »

You're talking about canon law, not state law here, right?
So, I guess the question is; is there a provision in Irish law that protects a priest for resusing to report a normally reportable offence?

Anyway, I wonder what would happen if someone declared their intention to set off a dirty nuclear bomb in a large city? Still no exception?



Or, maybe more importantly, if the person confesses his intention to commit a crime.

Regardless of state law, the priest won't break the seal. He can be killed or jailed before he'll break the seal, regardless of what the state law says.

Ghost Buster

greyheron wrote: »

Regardless of state law, the priest won't break the seal. He can be killed or jailed before he'll break the seal, regardless of what the state law says.

Making them criminals?
And dangerous criminals who protect or facilitate other criminals?

dvpower

greyheron wrote: »

Regardless of state law, the priest won't break the seal. He can be killed or jailed before he'll break the seal, regardless of what the state law says.

So I guess the answer to the OP is that they may well be legally obliged to report, but they would be prepared/bound to break the law of the land.

greyheron

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Making them criminals?
And dangerous criminals who protect or facilitate other criminals?

The sacrament is an encounter between Jesus Christ and the sinner, in the person of the priest. Would you expect the Lord to denounce you to the civil authorities? The Lord did not insist that the woman caught in adultery be stoned anyway. His Law supersedes any civil law. If our sins are revealed in the Sacrament of Penance, then what is shared and forgiven is between the penitent and Jesus Christ, and the priest is unable to reveal, for whatever reason, what he has learned in the confessional.

Note that a condition of absolution is a firm purpose of amendment, so you must intend firmly to stop whatever it is you had been doing. A priest can withhold absolution if he thinks the intention to avoid future sin is not there.

Ghost Buster

greyheron wrote: »

The sacrament is an encounter between Jesus Christ and the sinner, in the person of the priest. Would you expect the Lord to denounce you to the civil authorities? The Lord did not insist that the woman caught in adultery be stoned anyway. His Law supersedes any civil law. If our sins are revealed in the Sacrament of Penance, then what is shared and forgiven is between the penitent and Jesus Christ, and the priest is unable to reveal, for whatever reason, what he has learned in the confessional.

His law (and yes i know this is against the charter but this is what it is) is makey uppy law. The law of the land is the only law (Thank God). If priest are going to jail for breaking it then good. They are criminals

dvpower

It seems that there may be a priest penitent privilege in Irish common law.

From the Diocese of Dublin

While reporting policies have been adopted by civil and ecclesiastical authorities, there is no statutory, mandatory obligation on the citizen to report. In addition, a body of jurisprudence has built up in civil courts over the years. Of note in this connection is the decision of Duffy Gavan J. (Cook v. Carroll, [1945] IR 515 (High Court)) which established the privilege of parishioners in relation to communications with the parish priest and later decisions which established other similar privileges with regard to the communications of people with priests other than parish priests. (ER v .JR, [1981] ILRM 125 (High Court)) The most recent decision of this kind established the confidentiality of the acts or proceedings of the preliminary investigation as envisaged in Can.1717 of the Code of Canon Law. (MM v. CM, [1993] Unreported (High Court))

Ghost Buster

dvpower wrote: »

It seems that there may be a priest penitent privilege in Irish common law.

From the Diocese of Dublin

Grrrr This country!!!!!!:mad:

greyheron

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Grrrr This country!!!!!!:mad:

The USA is the same. Even if this privilage (I can never spell that word) is revoked, the priest will go to jail or be killed and thrown into a river first!!!

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-19206224.html

dvpower

Ghost Buster wrote: »

His law (and yes i know this is against the charter but this is what it is) is makey uppy law. The law of the land is the only law (Thank God). If priest are going to jail for breaking it then good. They are criminals

Well all laws are makey uppy. Its a question of what law is in force, and in Ireland, that is Irish law (or, at least, its not Canon law).

hinault

greyheron wrote: »

A confessor cannot reveal anything of the confession. He can't even talk to the penitent about it unless the penitent raises the subject himself. He cannot with-hold absolution on condition that the penitent turn themselves in to law enforcement. Nor can he tell the police himself. He can tell no-one, not even in the case PDN gave above. Priests will go to jail to protect the seal of the confessional.

He can compel the person to make amends, such as release the person locked in your basement, or return stolen money, but he cannot withhold absolution on condition that the person turn themselves in to law enforcement.

You're 100% correct in respect of this topic.

I think it would also be correct to say that if a penitent confessed to committing a serious crime ie commit murder for example, the priest might suggest to the penitent that he/she consider making the admission to the relevant authority.

Absolution for the sin in this instance would not be dependent upon the penitent following through on the priest's suggestion.

But you're 100%, a priest would never divulge what has been said in the confession box.

greyheron

hinault wrote: »

You're 100% correct in respect of this topic.

I think it would also be correct to say that if a penitent confessed to committing a serious crime ie commit murder for example, the priest might suggest to the penitent that he/she consider making the admission to the relevant authority.

Absolution for the sin in this instance would not be dependent upon the penitent following through on the priest's suggestion.

But you're 100%, a priest would never divulge what has been said in the confession box.

I've consulted with a Catholic forum, and I am told that a priest cannot compel a person to do anything outside the confessional. He can advise the penitent to seek therapy, but he can't make it a condition of absolution. Nor can the priest compel (contrary to what I suggested in the post of mine which you quoted above) the penitent to turn themselves in to law enforcement, even to save the life of an innocent suspect who is to be executed for the crime in the morning. This is what one contributor said:

Does the person INTEND that this innocent die? Did not the state use due process? The priest is not there to judge the person, that is God's role and his ministers of justice on the court. The sacrament is to offer reconciliation, not justice.

How do we know this person is correct in confessing he killed the man. Have you not watched enough mysteries with a twist where the obvious perpetrator only thought he killed the man but someone later showed up and performed the act?

Perhaps the court is right and the man is wrong. Let justice do it's job and reconciliation do it's job. And don't mix the two.

What would you have the poor priest do if a man confesses and another has already been condemned? We are all guilty and all will be judged at the end of time.

Baggio1

a priest can NEVER tell what he hears in confession simple as that....

makey uppy law? yeah right like the laws that cover up any number of scams by people who dont give a hoot about swearing in court and telling lies... thank God for confession!!! its THE most inportant sacrament as it leads us back to God in the sacred host.

to bug a confessional is to try to listen in to Gods forgiveness, and am certain will entail a severe judgement on who soever does this
,, law of the land?? dont make me laugh go tell "law of the land" to the bankers etc who have the country on its knees! and see what they say to ya!

dvpower

Linked question (primarily for catholics I guess).

Are there any sins that a priest can refuse to hear (or to absolve) in confession; things so serious that a common or garden priest has to escalate them up the line?

Baggio1

not that i'm aware of , any sin no matter how grave can be forgiven once the penatant is truly sorry and determines to amend his /her ways, then absolution is granted, and theres no such thing as a common or garden priest, even the pope himself is a priest 1st

georgieporgy

dvpower wrote: »

Linked question (primarily for catholics I guess).

Are there any sins that a priest can refuse to hear (or to absolve) in confession; things so serious that a common or garden priest has to escalate them up the line?

Yes there are but I can't remember them offhand and would need to check canon law. It isn't that he refuses to hear/absolve it. He just doesn't have the faculties to do it.

The sin of abortion (seeing as it leads to automatic excomunication) used to be one but now that that is so common place the priest has been allowed the priviledge to absolve it and bring the penitent back into full communion.

Basically anything that incurs excommunication (like a priest breaking the seal of confession) has to be referred to what they call the local Ordinary (the bishop) and some cases the pope.

SonOfAdam

When I was 14 a priest refused to obsolve me in the confessional as I hadn't 'examined my conscience sufficiently' before coming to confess. I was of the opinion that If I hadn't I wouldn't have bothered going to confess in the first place. The issues invloved were the usual 14 years old stuff, hardly excommunication material . Thankfully, I've since found that God hasn't witheld HIS forgiveness and so I dispense with the box and look to the cross instead