Attitudes toward alcohol (Brian Cowen interview)

looksee

There are a couple of threads about the Brian Cowen interview, and to me they throw up some interesting, if worrying evidence of attitudes.

There are some people saying, 'he was drunk, its a disgrace' and others saying 'you don't know he was drunk, he sounded ok to me'. I would consider both these arguments valid, but it doesn't matter which view I hold.

What I find worrying is the number of people who are willing to argue 'ok, so he was drunk, can't a man have a few pints without everyone complaining about it?' As other people have said, the answer has to be no, he is the leader of the country, and we are in deep trouble. For both our international reputation, and any prospect of digging ourselves out the hole we are in the 'leave the man alone' attitude is very worrying.

Is that attitude very prevalent or is it just trolling on Boards?

Denerick

I have stayed away from the whole debacle because it is a sick media circus that is absolutely absurd.

I was listening to Newstalk yesterday when they had Dermot Ahern on, and for once I found myself agreeing with him.

This is silly season that has gotten out of hand. Its pathetic.

Eliot Rosewater

I have too. This kind of issue if only interesting for those who consider politics to be like a game of soccer, with Cowen's slip up being the equivalent of Joe Cole injuring his ankle.

When it comes to politics I'm interested in the actual issues that affect people, not some storm-in-a-tea-cup interview that is, in the grander scheme of things, thoroughly irrelevant.

RandolphEsq

If we assume he was still drunk, then is it not horribly arrogant for him to be forced out of bed at *gasp* 8am to work at a time when the majority of the working public are heading to work themselves? They are probably not hungover themselves as they did not stay up drinking half the night. He is the leader of the country, so at the very least he should have not appeared to be hung over, at least for public perception not to be affected

jamimon

I wonder why is this relevant. You should think of him as a leader of the country. The problem of politics nowaday is that they've turned into celebrity rather than doing what they supposed to do. I'm not from the europe but in Asia, we don't really care about if he's drinking, when he goes to watch football or his first born baby girl etc, we only want to know what he's going to change or what he's going to do. See the difference?

looksee

jamimon wrote: »

I wonder why is this relevant. You should think of him as a leader of the country. The problem of politics nowaday is that they've turned into celebrity rather than doing what they supposed to do. I'm not from the europe but in Asia, we don't really care about if he's drinking, when he goes to watch football or his first born baby girl etc, we only want to know what he's going to change or what he's going to do. See the difference?

If he is the leader of the country he should have enough respect for the people paying his salary to make sure he is alert and making sense when he talks to the nation. If a school principal stood on the stage at a school event and talked to the students and parents in a hung over condition, he would not be a principal for long. Likewise with the MD of a company talking to the shareholders or any other analogy. There is a world of difference between prying into his private life and listening to him make a public broadcast.

But that is not the point of the discussion. The point was that a fair proportion of people are willing to say - ah, sure, he was having a few jars with his friends, leave the man alone. Are these people who would turn up to work hung-over? Are they in work at all, maybe it interferes with their drinking?

Why would people suggest that it is acceptable for someone with responsibilities and obligations to the public to be less than completely coherent in his public life. Would they be happy to travel with a hung-over taxi driver or pilot? Or be concerned that the doctor operating on them had had a few jars the night before? Or if their childrens' teacher appeared in class the worse for drink?

I thought the days of the 'gas man' who drinks to idiocy were passing, but obviously not, and there seems to be a good few people out there who cannot see why it might be a problem.

FreudianSlippers

In my book drink all you want, whenever you want. But when it interferes with your job and/or your functionality in life then you need to reconsider the amount you drink.
I love the drink, but I have to choose to not drink Sunday through Thursday when I'm working because IMO when I speak to clients and the court I need to not stink of booze and need to have a clear head.

Do I think it's ok for our Taoiseach to have a few pints whenever he wants? yes.
Do I think he should be working or giving interviews intoxicated? Hell no.

femur61

Would you go to an interview with a hanglover? We, the public are paying his wages (over inflated) which are more than Barack Obamas, so IMO he should have cancelled the interview. Or, what I'd say 99% of the public would have done was abstain from dinking so much.

Denerick

He had a bit of a hangover. I understand that that is unprofessional... But did it warrant this mass Joe Duffy reaction?

mike65

The Irish have a drink problem thats clear enough.

FreudianSlippers

Denerick wrote: »

He had a bit of a hangover. I understand that that is unprofessional... But did it warrant this mass Joe Duffy reaction?

Is there genuinely much that warrants a Joe Duffy reaction?


I cannot help but to :rolleyes: listening to the hysteria on that programme.

jamimon

mike65 wrote: »

The Irish have a drink problem thats clear enough.

well said

dvpower

This was less to do with the Irish attitute towards alcohol and more to do with their attitute towards FF.
The alcohol was, as usual, just a crutch.

TitoPuente

It's more the hysterical reaction to it that embarasses me. That and the endemic corruption and rudderlessness of this inept government. If I was Cowan, I'd hit the bottle myself knowing what's around the corner for this country.

looksee

TitoPuente wrote: »

It's more the hysterical reaction to it that embarasses me. That and the endemic corruption and rudderlessness of this inept government. If I was Cowan, I'd hit the bottle myself knowing what's around the corner for this country.

So you don't mind the leader of your country, who organises your life and your taxes, being hung over in an interview, but you object to people getting upset about it? You are upset because it is embarrassing that people draw attention to the inadequacies of the leadership. Lets keep our dirty linen out of sight, never mind if it never gets washed.

That is the attitude I had in mind when I started the thread.

TitoPuente

looksee wrote: »

So you don't mind the leader of your country, who organises your life and your taxes, being hung over in an interview, but you object to people getting upset about it? You are upset because it is embarrassing that people draw attention to the inadequacies of the leadership. Lets keep our dirty linen out of sight, never mind if it never gets washed.

That is the attitude I had in mind when I started the thread.

I'm not upset at all. I just think it's embarrassing how he's being jumped up and down upon by the same people who would probably be egging him on if we were still in the middle of the economic boom. We have the government we deserve. Get upset about it all you want and call for Cowan's head if you like. I didn't vote for him. Did you?

caseyann

mike65 wrote: »

The Irish have a drink problem thats clear enough.

Speak for yourself.
The same context could be said of all countries :rolleyes:
I am sick of Irish tagging the whole country as drinkers and having a problem.
It is as bad as everywhere else in young whether you have seen it or is reported or not in news of other countries( They just arent thick enough to report on it).Only Irish media portray us and our young as alcoholics with their bull**** surveys.
As for our so called leader he isnt my leader and he is a joke to go on slurring his speech not that it makes much difference as he already stutters.

looksee

caseyann wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
The same context could be said of all countries :rolleyes:
I am sick of Irish tagging the whole country as drinkers and having a problem.
It is as bad as everywhere else in young whether you have seen it or is reported or not in news of other countries( They just arent thick enough to report on it).Only Irish media portray us and our young as alcoholics with their bull**** surveys.
As for our so called leader he isnt my leader and he is a joke to go on slurring his speech not that it makes much difference as he already stutters.

I can't say that I had noticed that he stutters, but if someone with a stutter becomes a political leader then it shows great strength of character, not something to be casually derided.

caseyann

looksee wrote: »

I can't say that I had noticed that he stutters, but if someone with a stutter becomes a political leader then it shows great strength of character, not something to be casually derided.

Not a stammer or a stutter in the medical term,shifty sentences unprepared and not a good speaker who always has something else on his mind rather than what he is saying with bad eye contact.You dont notice because you cant tell difference between dodgy and honest.

looksee

caseyann wrote: »

Not a stammer or a stutter in the medical term,shifty sentences unprepared and not a good speaker who always has something else on his mind rather than what he is saying with bad eye contact.You dont notice because you cant tell difference between dodgy and honest.

Ah! Caseyann, always the merry quip or thoughtful response!

caseyann

looksee wrote: »

Ah! Caseyann, always the merry quip or thoughtful response!

Ah someone has to brighten up your day with a compliment,be thankful :)you cant i see behind all peoples false faces Trust me you dont want to know

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
The same context could be said of all countries :rolleyes:
I am sick of Irish tagging the whole country as drinkers and having a problem.
It is as bad as everywhere else in young whether you have seen it or is reported or not in news of other countries( They just arent thick enough to report on it).Only Irish media portray us and our young as alcoholics with their bull**** surveys.

No. Statsistically, the average Irish person drinks far more than virtually any other nationality, and we have the figures to back it up:

http://apps.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?strISO3_select=ALL&strIndicator_select=AlcoholConsumption&intYear_select=latest&language=english#

Sortable version here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

It's not generally advisable to break out the old rolleyes till you're sure you're not objectively wrong.

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

No. Statsistically, the average Irish person drinks far more than virtually any other nationality, and we have the figures to back it up:

http://apps.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?strISO3_select=ALL&strIndicator_select=AlcoholConsumption&intYear_select=latest&language=english#

Sortable version here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

It's not generally advisable to break out the old rolleyes till you're sure you're not objectively wrong.

When are you going to cop on statistics are not facts?

Seriously do you not witness drinking in Germany and Norway and France and USA and etc..... They drink you under table.I have seen more outlandish loud drinkers in USA then i have in Ireland,they drink for lunch aswell.
Poland, Russia when i was there they drank like fish.
seriously cop on with the stats crap


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5444002,00.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20471196

BCowen

Many of our countrymen and women drink too much, smoke in football stadiums and sweat while eating, the man is a posterboy for all that is wrong with this country,

caseyann

BCowen wrote: »

Many of our countrymen and women drink too much, smoke in football stadiums and sweat while eating, the man is a posterboy for all that is wrong with this country,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhPnnKSEQc

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

When are you going to cop on statistics are not facts?

Seriously do you not witness drinking in Germany and Norway and France and USA and etc..... They drink you under table.I have seen more outlandish loud drinkers in USA then i have in Ireland,they drink for lunch aswell.
Poland, Russia when i was there they drank like fish.
seriously cop on with the stats crap

"When are you going to cop on and realise that my personal anecdotes trump statistical data from the World Health Organisation?"

I'll give you a chance to rethink that.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5444002,00.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20471196

The first of these links is an article that states German people drink too much. It points towards the world rankings of alcohol consumption per capita as listed by The WHO (the same organisation that I linked you to in my first post) as evidence. You'll notice Germany ranks behind Ireland on this report. Thank you for proving my point.

The second is an abstract of a study which seems to find that French people drink too much. France ranks well behind Ireland on the WHO report. Thank you for proving my point, again. You've also got to bear in mind that the French would typically drink more steadily - typically several drinks, wine in particular, spaced over the course of the day - whilst the Irish tend to binge drink at weekends. The latter is more destructive both to the individual's health and society in general.

I'm not claiming that we're the only country on earth with drink issues, but to claim it's as bad throughout the world is just wrong. Our reputation doesn't come from nowhere.

caseyann

Pace2008 wrote: »

"When are you going to cop on and realise that my personal anecdotes trump statistical data from the World Health Organisation?"

I'll give you a chance to rethink that.

The first of these links is an article that states German people drink too much. It points towards the world rankings of alcohol consumption per capita as listed by The WHO (the same organisation that I linked you to in my first post) as evidence. You'll notice Germany ranks behind Ireland on this report. Thank you for proving my point.

The second is an abstract of a study which seems to find that French people drink too much. France ranks well behind Ireland on the WHO report. Thank you for proving my point, again. You've also got to bear in mind that the French would typically drink more steadily - typically several drinks, wine in particular, spaced over the course of the day - whilst the Irish tend to binge drink at weekends. The latter is more destructive both to the individual's health and society in general.

I'm not claiming that we're the only country on earth with drink issues, but to claim it's as bad throughout the world is just wrong. Our reputation doesn't come from nowhere.

Do you drink every day? Do your friends have drink at lunch?
It isn't wrong and i am sure higher then their stupid stats are showing,for the stats to say Germany is behind us is absolute cods wallop.
How do they come to these statistics? Do they question people or they send out national survey?
How many times a week would you see a pub full in Ireland?
I am really curious how they come up with these stats seen as England is visibly higher in the drinking scale,so is Poland and Russia.
Even if that idiot turned up with drink on him that is disgraceful knowing he had an interview.
Doesnt mean people start with this crap of all Irish are fat sweat and drink more than any country.
Pace even if there was a drink problem here i most certainly havent seen it,and lets not forget how many non Irish are living here also.
Thats why pubs are going out of business because Irish drink so much.
In the young it might be alot,but in young its alot all over the world barr arab nations or African.And this crap of its not,and Irish are highest is complete crap.
True facts are personal views and what you see everyday not some stats.
Maybe Irish kids and people should start lying like the rest of Europe and USA

Pace2008

caseyann wrote: »

Do you drink every day? Do your friends have drink at lunch?

No. I drink heavily at weekends, as do my friends, as do a huge number of Ireland's youth.

How do they come to these statistics? Do they question people or they send out national survey?

Methods of estimation

Estimated amount of pure ethanol in litres of total alcohol, and separately, beer, wine and spirits consumed per adult (15 years and older) in the country during a calendar year, as calculated from official statistics on production, sales, import and export, taking into account stocks whenever possible.

http://www.who.int/whosis/indicators/2007AlcoholConsumption/en/index.html

It's a pretty simple calculation - the estimated amount of alcohol shipped/sold divided by the population demographic over the age of fifteen. These would be well documented in developed countries like Ireland and Germany, and are accurately comparable figures.

Some people don't trust the WHO in certain medical matters due to alleged ties with big pharma, but I see little reason to doubt them here.

How many times a week would you see a pub full in Ireland?

For the sake of argument, we'll assume most people frequenting pubs in Ireland fall between the ages of 15-
65. According to the CSO, there are 2,907,473 people who fall within this age bracket. There doesn't seem to be much info on the number of licensed premises within the Republic, but according to p9 of this report there are a total of 7,980. That would mean there's a pub for every 322 of these people in the country, so I'm sure you'd agree we'd be hard-pushed to fill these every night of the week.

As I've said anyway, the Irish tend to cram their quality drinking time in at the weekends.

I am really curious how they come up with these stats seen as England is visibly higher in the drinking scale,so is Poland and Russia.

I've already demonstrated that our total alcohol consumption is significantly higher than that of the UK, but I would agree that the youth of Great Britain have similar drinking habits to our own.

I've noticed this on various clubbing holidays in the sun, if I may take a leaf out of your book and go on personal experience as a reliable metric. These locations would mainly be frequented by Irish, English, Italians, Spanish and Portuguese. The Irish and English behave in a very similar manner, boozing, fighting and pissing in the streets, but our continental counterparts handle themselves very differently when it comes to drink (though they have their own, different attitude problems). This is because drunkenness is generally tolerated by the Irish and English, but frowned upon in the areas of Europe I've mentioned.

I've never been to Eastern Europe, so I can't comment on the locals' drinking habits. I do know that there's a significant Eastern European diaspora here, but regardless of whether they match or exceed us in terms of alcohol consumption, it's not the Polish I see kicking off in Abrakebabra every Saturday night.

In any case, this thread is about the drinking habits of the Irish. What you're saying has very little to do with the price of turnips.

True facts are personal views and what you see everyday not some stats.

You have it completely the wrong way around. I'm beginning to think you're trolling if you can come out with a statement like that.

I'm the bigger fool for taking the bait, I suppose.

AudreyHepburn

I personally thought the reaction to the Cowen interview was totally over the top, bordering on hysterical thb.

Here we are in the grip of an economic crisis, people's livelyhoods are on the line, the banks are falling apart, the church too and all people are worried about is a grown man having a few pints and maybe being a bit hoarse the next day?

It's time we copped oursleves on a bit.

Taoiseach or not, the man is entitled to a night out if he wants.

In any case while we're getting our knickers in a twist about Brian Cowen and co we ought to remember why they're there......because we voted them in. We're as much at fault for whats happening imo.

looksee

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I personally thought the reaction to the Cowen interview was totally over the top, bordering on hysterical thb.

Here we are in the grip of an economic crisis, people's livelyhoods are on the line, the banks are falling apart, the church too and all people are worried about is a grown man having a few pints and maybe being a bit hoarse the next day?
It's time we copped oursleves on a bit.

Taoiseach or not, the man is entitled to a night out if he wants.

In any case while we're getting our knickers in a twist about Brian Cowen and co we ought to remember why they're there......because we voted them in. We're as much at fault for whats happening imo.

Are you saying there is no connection between the two highlighted points? You don't think that maybe the people at their wits' end trying to pay a mortgage or put food on the table might feel their leader is not taking them seriously? Would you not be concerned that this apparent lack of a sense of responsibility and dignity and obligation might be in some way connected to the mess we are in, in the first place.

AudreyHepburn

looksee wrote: »

Are you saying there is no connection between the two highlighted points? You don't think that maybe the people at their wits' end trying to pay a mortgage or put food on the table might feel their leader is not taking them seriously? Would you not be concerned that this apparent lack of a sense of responsibility and dignity and obligation might be in some way connected to the mess we are in, in the first place.

Well I certainly don't think the economy is falling apart simply because Brian Cowen enjoys a pint now and then, no.

I just think the reaction to the interview has gone over the top tbh. I mean people are actually calling for his resignation. It's just making a mountain out of molehill imo.

There are more important issues to worry about.

Deise Tom

looksee wrote: »

There are a couple of threads about the Brian Cowen interview

I have not read any of them but found this one, so dont know if this is included anyplace. Apologies if it has.

To the tune of Galway girl


So I went down west for an old think tank,
All day, all day, all day,
But to be honest with you lads we just drank,
All day, all day, all day

And I ask you friend what's a Taoiseach to do
If he can't have a pint or twenty two,
We stayed up all night until well after two,
Oh what does it matter cause the country's screwed

We were on our way to the early house,
All day, all day, all day,
When the call came through from the radio,
Feck sake, feck sake, feck sake

And I ask you friend what's a Taoiseach to do,
When he's half cut in an interview,
And I slurred my words and talked gobbledegook,
Oh what does it matter cause the country's screwed

So now I've had a fierce sore head,
All day, all day, all day,
I've taken Neurofen and I'm going to bed,
All day, all day, all day

And I ask you now tell what would you do,
If the barman kept throwing shots at you,
And if you think I'm bad for all the messin,
You should see the expenses for the Galway session.

gimli2112

According to the Metro he's solved the economic crises. All we got to do is personally spend more in the economy.

Good for you Brian

If he was dong a good job, nobody would care about his drinking habits.. Personally, I think people are just looking for something new to complain about. We've already complained for months about the state of the economy, well, here's a new thing for us to complain about. Although I have to think about how many people I know who regularly came into work with hangovers or still smelling of drink from the previous night. So, I don't think Cowen is particularly unique regarding the drink in this country..

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

If he was dong a good job, nobody would care about his drinking habits.. Personally, I think people are just looking for something new to complain about. We've already complained for months about the state of the economy, well, here's a new thing for us to complain about. Although I have to think about how many people I know who regularly came into work with hangovers or still smelling of drink from the previous night. So, I don't think Cowen is particularly unique regarding the drink in this country..

Agreed!
Instead of trying to force him out for something as thick as this,people should be forcing him out for the mess in the country.They just found an easier way to be outraged and give out.

But he doesnt represent the country,or else imagine all the other leaders of world represent and portray all of their people.lol so it means all Americans are cheats.

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

If he was dong a good job, nobody would care about his drinking habits.. Personally, I think people are just looking for something new to complain about. We've already complained for months about the state of the economy, well, here's a new thing for us to complain about. Although I have to think about how many people I know who regularly came into work with hangovers or still smelling of drink from the previous night. So, I don't think Cowen is particularly unique regarding the drink in this country..

With you 100%!

I think it's just an excuse for people to bash Cowen and to be honest is a little hypocritical because lets face it we've all made the mistake of coming into work a little worse for ware after a work night out.

Taoiseach or not, the man is entitled to a social life and a few rounds if that's what he wants.

looksee

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Taoiseach or not, the man is entitled to a social life and a few rounds if that's what he wants.

:rolleyes: we get the government we deserve

Pace2008

looksee wrote: »

:rolleyes: we get the government we deserve

So it seems.

According to AA, one must admit they have a problem before they start on the road to recovery.

We're fairly ****ed so, if the attitudes displayed here are indicative of the Irish as a whole.

AudreyHepburn

looksee wrote: »

:rolleyes: we get the government we deserve

I never said that :rolleyes:

looksee

looksee wrote: »

:rolleyes: we get the government we deserve

I don't think we actually do. We deserve a lot better than what tends to be on offer. The Irish have produced extremely successful business people, great musicians, actors, scientists, theorists, etc and yet look at the quality of politicians in this country. Useless.

The population of this country has been screwed with the set of political parties who maintain a status quo which isn't efficient or honest. Instead they seek to maintain a system which benefits themselves first and foremost. That isn't what the Irish people deserve. We might be responsible to get off our collective asses and do something about it, but I've yet to find any reasonable explanation of how to do such. Any individual new politician gets sucked into the traditional setup rather quickly, and becomes part of the original landscape.

No doubt, someone will say that I should run for office myself, and make the changes from within, but how can those changes be implemented if you need the support of the very people who have no interest in losing their privileges?

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we actually do. We deserve a lot better than what tends to be on offer. The Irish have produced extremely successful business people, great musicians, actors, scientists, theorists, etc and yet look at the quality of politicians in this country. Useless.

The population of this country has been screwed with the set of political parties who maintain a status quo which isn't efficient or honest. Instead they seek to maintain a system which benefits themselves first and foremost. That isn't what the Irish people deserve. We might be responsible to get off our collective asses and do something about it, but I've yet to find any reasonable explanation of how to do such. Any individual new politician gets sucked into the traditional setup rather quickly, and becomes part of the original landscape.

No doubt, someone will say that I should run for office myself, and make the changes from within, but how can those changes be implemented if you need the support of the very people who have no interest in losing their privileges?

I would run for office tomorrow morning and behave honestly, ethically and responsibly.

BUT... and this is a big but, no one is going to trust what I say now. Sure, everyone is going to say these things, but if you're in FF or FG then the general feeling is that you're a cog in the machine and you're the same as them all.

On the flipside, if you go out as a little independent, you will never have the funds to drum up enough support to get elected.

Catch 22.

AudreyHepburn

OisinT wrote: »

I would run for office tomorrow morning and behave honestly, ethically and responsibly.

BUT... and this is a big but, no one is going to trust what I say now. Sure, everyone is going to say these things, but if you're in FF or FG then the general feeling is that you're a cog in the machine and you're the same as them all.

On the flipside, if you go out as a little independent, you will never have the funds to drum up enough support to get elected.

Catch 22.

I have no doubt Brian, Bertie and even Charlie Haughey said exactly the same thing.

I would love to think the same about myself were I Taoiseach.

The sad truth is though power and money change and corrupt people, usually for the worse and there is no point in pretending otherwise.

We all sit around whinging and moaning about the state of the country but I really have to ask whether, if we got a sniff of the wealth and power of office, would we be any better?

If you got whiff of what it feels like to have to power of ruling a nation and having more money than you knew what to do with I'd wager you be slow to bring in any changes that would result in you losing it or making the people wealthier or more powerful.

OisinT

OisinT wrote: »

I would run for office tomorrow morning and behave honestly, ethically and responsibly.

The point being that for anything to be done you would have to support other politicians on some initiative or another. You scratch my back and I scratch yours. And as time goes by, favors are accrued or debts to others. These others include external assets like businessmen, bankers, trade unions, the media etc. [i'm sure you can understand how this might compromise your... ethics/responsibility/authority etc]

And even if you do manage to stay above this behavior and stick to your moral center... You'll be alienated by the very politicians that have asked for these favors. After all, this is a democracy, and its the way that things are done. If you're not part of the system, you'll be left outside without support.

Personally, I believe there are quite a few Irish politicians that genuinely mean well, and seek to benefit this country, but Tbh, they're constrained by the politics (and interests) of their neighbors. One politician can do very little on their own...

Babooshka

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you got whiff of what it feels like to have to power of ruling a nation and having more money than you knew what to do with I'd wager you be slow to bring in any changes that would result in you losing it or making the people wealthier or more powerful.

Deleted User wrote: »

The point being that for anything to be done you would have to support other politicians on some initiative or another. You scratch my back and I scratch yours. And as time goes by, favors are accrued or debts to others. These others include external assets like businessmen, bankers, trade unions, the media etc. [i'm sure you can understand how this might compromise your... ethics/responsibility/authority etc]

And even if you do manage to stay above this behavior and stick to your moral center... You'll be alienated by the very politicians that have asked for these favors. After all, this is a democracy, and its the way that things are done. If you're not part of the system, you'll be left outside without support.

Personally, I believe there are quite a few Irish politicians that genuinely mean well, and seek to benefit this country, but Tbh, they're constrained by the politics (and interests) of their neighbors. One politician can do very little on their own...

While I can see where both of you are coming from, does saying "well IF I had been there WOULD I have done the same thing and SHOULD I be criticising our only human and not saintly politicians for just being human and giving into the scratch my back system?" If you can't beat them, join them after all. Now...I really really can see where you're coming from as I have been thinking about this and it must be easy to fall into it, considering a wealthy and influential and possibly intimidating individual or group gives you a gift you can't return and you're expected to play the game.

But I still can't stomach that mentality any more. Something has to change because the rot spread too deep. And accountability has to begin somewhere. We can't all wring our hands and go "Jeesh they're only human". Change has to begin with rectifying the damage done and analysis and retrospect (I think Audrey... what you would call moaning and whinging :P) is how that begins.