Cowen etc and Nama pals

Doom

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs :mad:

galwayrush

Doom wrote: »

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs :mad:

No surprises there:rolleyes:
Of course , the Government could have bailed out City West for a fraction of what they will be paying Ronan in rent or subsidies for use of the new Conference Centre despite he fact that Ronan's empire is mostly run br NAMA now. Win win for the FF cronies............:pac::pac:

Deep Easterly

Doom wrote: »

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs :mad:

Haven't read the article, but it just seems to confirm what everybody knows already. It is comforting to know that there will have to be a saving of at least 2 billion euro this year in public and social services just to keep these evil bastards afloat.

Angeltrumpet

was Cowen even elected????

ninty9er

Angeltrumpet wrote: »

was Cowen even elected????

How else do you suppose he came to be Taoiseach:rolleyes:

bmaxi

I thought Cowen was dead, its so long since we heard from him.
These guys will never change until they are made to feel real pain. Taking a drop in salary of 10% of an already inflated amount is window dressing and where is the evidence of it anyway?
TDs can get expenses of one and a half times the Dole tax free and purely on their own say so, no evidence needed. I wish I was in the same boat.
The next Government of this country has a huge task in front of it, not only in restoring the fortunes of a bankrupt country but also in restoring confidence in a bankrupt and corrupt political system.
It's very likely that Enda Kenny will be the next Taoiseach and he should be aware that continuation of the "let them eat cake" attitude, could result in his government being the last in a strife free Ireland.

Doom

Angeltrumpet wrote: »

was Cowen even elected????

No he wasn't, the other tool quit, so he was not elected, democracy my ass

drBill

Doom wrote: »

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs :mad:

Interesting to see also that the 21 year old student son of Mr Ronan is in the process of trying to build an 8700sq ft house in Enniskerry:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tycoons-son-has-building-appeal-rejected-2333756.html

Bord Pleanala has rejected an appeal from a son of property tycoon Johnny Ronan to build a large house in the beautiful Dargle valley in Enniskerry, Co Wicklow.
James Ronan, a student at DIT, had appealed to An Bord Pleanala after Wicklow County Council turned down his application for a five-bedroom, 8,700sq ft pad in Enniskerry.

Not bad for a starter home I guess. Considering his fathers debts to NAMA, the family isn't exactly slumming it.

iMax

I heard somewhere we (taxpayers) are footing a twenty five million a year payment to the conference center management company for the next five years, then a further fifteen years payments (to be negotiated). This makes me extremely angry & sad at the same time. I have a five year old who'll most likely be paying this crap off when she starts working (if there's any jobs for her)

Doom

iMax wrote: »

I heard somewhere we (taxpayers) are footing a twenty five million a year payment to the conference center management company for the next five years, then a further fifteen years payments (to be negotiated). This makes me extremely angry & sad at the same time. I have a five year old who'll most likely be paying this crap off when she starts working (if there's any jobs for her)

I think its something like €635,000 a month for the next 25 years:eek:
A fookin disgrace.....

Sulmac

Doom wrote: »

No he wasn't, the other tool quit, so he was not elected, democracy my ass

It is democracy - parliamentary democracy. We don't elect the Taoiseach, the Dáil (which we elect) does.

I'm hardly Cowen's biggest fan but he is there legally and according to procedure whether we like it or not.

A bigger change in government was the formation of the 1994 Rainbow Coalition with a new Taoiseach from a new party without an election. That was also legitimate and legal.

The Raven.

Back on topic:

Builder gets €2.5m a month from State

THE lucrative deal between the State and a company controlled by Johnny Ronan and Richard Barrett for the controversial National Convention Centre will mean the taxpayer will hand the developers €633,000 a week for the next five years -- even though their company Treasury Holdings is among the Nama top 10.
…

Treasury Holdings, through its development vehicle Real Estate Opportunities (REO), now has loans totalling €896m in Nama.

The €896m worth of loans originally secured from Allied Irish Bank, Anglo Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland are out of total borrowings by REO of €1.49bn.

The €380m convention centre was built as a public private partnership between the State and Spencer Dock Convention Centre Dublin Ltd (SDCCD), an off-shoot of Treasury Holdings.

Under the terms of the National Convention Centre deal, the company controlled by Mr Ronan and Mr Barrett will receive a once off payment of €27m. On top of that, they will receive €25m in each of the next five years (€125m).
It means that, between the unitary (once-off) and annual payments, the new convention centre is worth €2.5m a month for the next 60 months to the developers bailed out by the State's bad bank.

But the payments to the company controlled by Messrs Ronan and Barrett will not stop there.

After those five years are up, index-linked payments will continue to the developers for the following 20 years. After 25 years (2035) the convention centre reverts to State ownership.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-developer-bash-sparks-rage-2334614.html

Words fail me. While the taxpayers are being told to take the pain, Cowen is handing their money to his developer friends - business as usual. Welcome to NAMA :rolleyes:!

Biggins

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs

...Also known as the Drumcondra Mafia! This is WELL known!

see: http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=9780340919040

...What made Bertie Ahern unique was not his enormous popularity or the revelations about his personal finances, but his dependence on a power base largely separate to Fianna Fail: 'the Drumcondra Mafia', a largely unknown, fiercely loyal, close-knit group of friends. When Ahern was Taoiseach the centre of power was arguably as much in St Luke's, the legendary constituency office bought by the Drumcondra Mafia, as in Government Buildings.

Bertie Ahern and the Drumcondra Mafia takes the reader inside the organisation and examines how they not only established the most efficient electoral machine in the country but put 'their man' in the most senior political office in the state. It also details how, in his rise to power, Ahern acquired substantial sums of money from person's unknown, while propagating the image of a man with no interest in money.

timbel

I assume Treasury Holding's loans are all among the 25% of NAMA loans that are being serviced?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/75pc-of-first-loans-in-nama-not-being-paid-off-2246283.html

And if not, maybe we can make these payments (for the convention centre) directly to NAMA and bypass the developers themselves???

The Raven.

timbel wrote: »

I assume Treasury Holding's loans are all among the 25% of NAMA loans that are being serviced?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/75pc-of-first-loans-in-nama-not-being-paid-off-2246283.html

And if not, maybe we can make these payments (for the convention centre) directly to NAMA and bypass the developers themselves???

That's a good point, and an interesting suggestion. Treasury Holdings, has €890m of its €1.5bn bank loans in NAMA. The taxpayer is obviously not allowed to know whether the €890m in NAMA includes good loans or bad, or even if the rest of their €1.5bn bank loans are good or bad.

Perhaps it is because of situations like this, which are in the developers' interests, that the taxpayers are being denied the Freedom of Information rights.

skelliser

I been saying this since day one.

Fianna Fail will drag this issue out as long as possible so they can figure out the best way to help their friends out. All they need is time.
Whilst every other country in the world, even iceland FFS, sorted there banks out FF waited until their friends could hide away their personal fortunes; assets to wifes etc, invent SCAMA and muddle their way thru Anglo. Anglo is the key. FF needed to make anglos problems our problems thus convuloting the process so much that we will
never find out how much dirt on FF their is in Anglo.

The DDDA IS AT THE HEART OF THIS IMO. FF cronies, friends of Bertie and fueled by anglo. Again we will never find out how far that rabbit hole goes.

Low and behold this is exactly what happened.

Biggins

...Bertie Ahern and the Drumcondra Mafia.
See: http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=9780340919040

I cannot recommend the above book enough for people to read.

Our entrenched government scum are up to their eyeballs in suspicious activities to say the least and this god-damn country is asleep to the facts that are actually out there but are under exposed due to the goons and they rushing to court to protect themselves from exposure.

skelliser

Spot on Biggins.

One needs only look at the glass bottle fiasco. How we paid 400m for worthless contaminated land. Signed off on "the best availible advice" by MOF Brian Cowen!
Any other country there would be a public inquiry and criminal charges!

THIS IS IRELAND THO....

ninty9er

Do all of you people live in a constant state of paranoia?? This thread would seem to suggest so.

Einhard

Doom wrote: »

Looking a the Sunday independant... Cowen, Bertie, John O'Donaghue and Johnny Ronan is proof that our politicians and developers are truely in each others pockets, turning up at the opening of the convention centre, I think they all should in be jail for the state of the country, but no they're out there slapping each others backs :mad:

This is a silly connection to make. Hundreds turned up at the opening of the convention centre. Are they all linked in corruption too? Seriously, I know people are angry, but is this really the level of political discourse that we're to have?

Einhard

skelliser wrote: »

I been saying this since day one.

Fianna Fail will drag this issue out as long as possible so they can figure out the best way to help their friends out. All they need is time.
Whilst every other country in the world, even iceland FFS, sorted there banks out FF waited until their friends could hide away their personal fortunes; assets to wifes etc, invent SCAMA and muddle their way thru Anglo. Anglo is the key. FF needed to make anglos problems our problems thus convuloting the process so much that we will
never find out how much dirt on FF their is in Anglo.

The DDDA IS AT THE HEART OF THIS IMO. FF cronies, friends of Bertie and fueled by anglo. Again we will never find out how far that rabbit hole goes.

Low and behold this is exactly what happened.

Yawn!

Prove it.

Seriously, multi-billion euro frauds are not easy to cover up. Should be easy to prove. If not, probably better off in CT section.

The Raven.

Einhard wrote: »

Seriously, multi-billion euro frauds are not easy to cover up. Should be easy to prove. If not, probably better off in CT section.

Really?

By declaring that NAMA is not a public authority, the FF/Green government has provided NAMA with the perfect excuse to make it exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Consequently, there is a complete 'cover up' of information relating to loans transferred to NAMA.

Can you provide an explanation for this cover up? Why the secrecy? After all it is taxpayers' money that is being used to buy these multi-billion loans. Do you see this as being honest?

Can you also explain why NAMA should not be considered a public authority?

timbel

ninty9er wrote: »

Do all of you people live in a constant state of paranoia?? This thread would seem to suggest so.

I have no problem with the Taoiseach attending the opening of the National Convention Centre.

I do have a problem with the state (AKA the taxpayers) paying out a €27m once off payment + €125 over the next 5 years to a company that already owes the state (via Nama) €896m.

Especially if that €896m is not being repaid at the moment.

Is this ok with you??

dan_d

Timbel, while I understand exactly what you are saying, and I know you are echoing the thoughts of many others - it just is not that simple. The contract for the CCD was negotiated years ago. That is the set up that exists, and is now legally binding. It can't just be changed overnight. The amounts of money involved are colossal, and yes, I'm as angry as you are, but a bit of common sense needs to prevail here.

As for everything else - yup we're all paranoid! I personally have been paranoid for about 5 years now....since around 2005 when I graduated, started to look around me and thought "hang on a second - how come we're pumping so much money into various Gov depts (witness, the HSE), and yet the medical service is getting worse?", or "how come the same guy that's developing one of the biggest sites in Dublin (say, Spencer Dock...) is showing up at the Galway Races with FF, and being pictured at receptions with the DDDA? Surely he's a developer, not a politician?". My paranoia was made worse by the fact that I actually worked in the building industry, and heard the gossip - if you think women gossip, you haven't heard builders yet!!!!:DWomen can't hold a candle to them!

But back on subject - while I don't link everyone to everything by the fact that they turned up at the opening of the convention centre, or that they are "friends", I would certainly have serious queries about deals being done in the background.The biggest question I have is this. How is it that we had at least 3 banks in this country (Irish banks - anglo, BOI and AIB), fully employed in lending to developers, along with the rush of foreign banks that came in, and the smaller banks, such as EBS, and yet "nobody saw this coming"? How many people do these banks employ? How many people at senior level do these banks employ? How many people at senior level with a high level of education and qualifications AND experience are in those banks, and "nobody saw this coming"? Not one person in there, among all those people, realised that rules were being broken, that accounting and economic rules of thumb were being ignored, that centuries of banking learning and developing into ways of doing business were being thrown out the window? How many people at senior level in the Dept of Finance, Central Bank and Regulator's Office, with the same experience and qualifications, apparently didn't realise that what was going on was wrong and unsustainable?? I just don't believe that. Somebody - and a lot more than ONE somebody, given the number of senior level people employed in these places - in there realised that it could all go badly wrong. They may have been shouted down by autocratic bosses, but I cannot, for one second, believe that nobody saw this coming. I don't buy it.

We may have voted Cowen in, and this may be a democracy, but there are so many parties involved in this who were not voted anywhere and who represent nobody but themselves that I think we are perfectly entitled to go after responsible parties. Laws have to change in this country, it is not acceptable to make a living out of finding the way around the law, on the basis that "it's not illegal". Things change, and it's time they did around here.

timbel

Dan_d, I know I know, contracts cant be broken.
Lets hope the NAMA legislation is strong enough (and there is the will) to pursue companys who are not paying their debts.

On the other - so many questions, so little answers...

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

Do all of you people live in a constant state of paranoia?? This thread would seem to suggest so.

Do all of you people live in a constant state of delusion ? That reply would seem to think so.

Paranoia - if valid objections can be viewed as such - is born of distrust. And FF have done plenty to ensure that that is the norm for non-supporters.

Of course, Ahern did say that the realists were paranoid too.........and I won't repeat what he said to those who didn't suit his "let's pretend there's no cause for concern" message.

Einhard

The Raven. wrote: »

Really?

By declaring that NAMA is not a public authority, the FF/Green government has provided NAMA with the perfect excuse to make it exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Consequently, there is a complete 'cover up' of information relating to loans transferred to NAMA.

Can you provide an explanation for this cover up? Why the secrecy? After all it is taxpayers' money that is being used to buy these multi-billion loans. Do you see this as being honest?

Can you also explain why NAMA should not be considered a public authority?

LOL pure CT stuff!! If you make the accusation, it's up to you to prove it, not to challenge me to prove why you're wrong!! I can't provide evidence for something that doesn't exist!! Seriously, I know that people are angry with the situation, but this is a politics forum, and we have a fairly large group of people accused of perpetrating one of the largest frauds in recent world history, and yet NOT ONE shred of conclusive evidence. I mean, rationality and Occam's Razor shouldn't be thrown out the window just because you're pissed.

Laminations

I find it funny you mention occams razor. If something looks like a fish, smells like a fish and sounds like a fish, the simplest explanation is that it's a big stinking fish. Similarly, NAMA and in particular Anglo, stinks to high heaven like a big dirty con job

Laminations

And why would anyone invite disgraced politicians (Ahern, O'Donoghue) and bankrupt developers (Ronan) to the opening of anything? Not exactly good for the image is it but then again these insiders don't seem to worry about optics

dan_d

Found this quote in one of today's papers. It was in an article related to something totally different (Wayne Rooney!) but I thought it was rather.........good.

Sometimes there is a central fact about a public figure, hidden in plain sight, which explains everything. The central fact about Brian Cowen is that he has given up talking, except in extraordinarily controlled circumstances. This means he either has nothing to say, or that what he has to say is too unpalatable for him to survive it. Either way, it’s growing increasingly difficult to care.

The Raven.

Einhard wrote: »

LOL pure CT stuff!!

Believe me, I really wish it was 'pure CT stuff!!' I have the documents to back up my statements, but I am busy at present and will post them later.

...because you're pissed.

In the meantime, please explain what you mean by this!

hinault

In yesterday's SINDO, Niamh Horan's article states that Johnny Ronan and cyclist Sean Kelly spent weeks pedalling around Spain.

Her article also states that Sean Kelly accompanied Johnny Ronan to the All Ireland Final between Tipp and Kilkenny lasy weekend (6th September).

Ms Horan obviously wasn't watching coverage of La Vuelta (Tour of Spain) because Kelly was in Spain on 6th September commenting on that days stage for Eurosport.

The Raven.

Einhard wrote: »

LOL pure CT stuff!!

The information on the following link backs up my statement which you chose to ridicule and refer to as ‘pure CT stuff!!’. If you read the documents on the link, you will find that what I have stated is the truth. The Fianna Fail/Green government has used the excuse that NAMA is not a public authority, in order to provide exemption from the Freedom of Information Act.

http://machholz.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/35189551-nama-preliminary-decision-reply.pdf

If you make the accusation, it's up to you to prove it, not to challenge me to prove why you're wrong!! I can't provide evidence for something that doesn't exist!! Seriously, I know that people are angry with the situation, but this is a politics forum, and we have a fairly large group of people accused of perpetrating one of the largest frauds in recent world history, and yet NOT ONE shred of conclusive evidence. I mean, rationality and Occam's Razor shouldn't be thrown out the window just because you're pissed.

If you are referring to my first post #12 in this thread, it provides the link and information which is ample proof to back up my claim in that post.

… and yet NOT ONE shred of conclusive evidence.

This statement beggars belief!! Do you read newspapers – or listen to the news – or google? We are bombarded with evidence at every turn!

The Raven. wrote: »

[Post #22] By declaring that NAMA is not a public authority, the FF/Green government has provided NAMA with the perfect excuse to make it exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Consequently, there is a complete 'cover up' of information relating to loans transferred to NAMA.

Can you provide an explanation for this cover up? Why the secrecy? After all it is taxpayers' money that is being used to buy these multi-billion loans. Do you see this as being honest?

Can you also explain why NAMA should not be considered a public authority?

In my post #22 above, I have certainly not challenged you to prove I was wrong. I was pointing to the fact that NAMA is engaging in covert actions, thereby denying the taxpayers their right to know how billions of their money is being spent. The government has written itself a blank check to do what as it pleases with taxpayers’ money and, to add insult to injury, has used the flimsiest of excuses to assume exemption from the Freedom of Information Act.

My questions still stand. Let me rephrase them. Why the evasion of transparency? Does this strike you as appropriate, moral behaviour?

I get the impression that you are unaware of their pathetic, sly excuse that ‘NAMA is not a public authority’, as shown in the link above.