Irish rugby. A long way to go but getting there..

profitius

I just came accross a debate about the provinces and the amount of players playing thats actually from the province. The numbers are surprisingly lower than people would think.

This is the Munster starting team for tomorrow: F Jones; D Howlett, J Murphy, S Tuitupou, I Dowling; P Warwick, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, T Buckley; D Ryan, M O'Driscoll; A Quinlan, N Ronan, D Leamy capt. The highlighted players are all from Munster. You'll notice thats 7 out of the starting 15.


So I'll concentrate on Munster and Leinster. Ulster and Connacht are similar.
The non Munstermen in the Munster squad:
Barnes - NZ
Borlase - NZ
Dowling - Kilkenny
Du Preez - South Africa
Howlett - NZ
Mafi - Samoa
Jones - Dublin
Johne Murphy - Meath?
Niall Ronon - Meath
Tuitopou - NZ
Warwick - Australia

The non Leinstermen in the Leinster squad:
Van Der Merwe - South Africa
Strauss - South Africa
Boss - NZ
Ross - Cork
Fogarty - Cork
O'Donoghue - Australia
Reddan - Limerick.
Keogh - Limerick
Hogan - Tipperary
Stan Wright - Cook islands
Nacewa - Samoa
Hines - Australia/Scotland
Berne - Australia
Galarza - Argentina
Shawe - Ulster
Ben Prescott - England


This isn't a debate about individual players. For instance its better for some Irish players to move around the provinces. This is about the provinces' need to bring in outsiders. Its not a Munster/Leinster debate either. They're both similar in that regard.

So thats 16 outsiders in the Leinster squad and 11 in Munsters. In Munster young talent is often blocked from getting a chance and people wonder why theres nothing coming through to the first teams. The current generation had every chance to develop while the new generation have limited chances.

We've all been saying how this generation is the golden generation and how good Irish rugby is. Well it has a long way to go. The amount of outsiders on both teams speaks volumes about the real strength of Irish rugby.

Its not all bad news though. Leinster are starting to produce alot of young players from the academy. The average age is low and they're getting experiance. Munster have alot of players waiting to break through too so it looks like the academies are starting to produce alot of player of quality. We've also seen in the U20s that theres some talented players there.

In the last decade Irish rugby has transformed itself and theres been some great occasions. The ML is going from strength to strength and Irish teams have been champions of Europe. So naturally the popularity of the game has exploded. More and more kids want to play the game and playing numbers are rising all the time. Also stadiums are being upgraded.

So the rising sea of popularity will give the Irish team's ships a massive lift and if they tap into it as they should we should start to have loads of talent coming through every year in every position. We won't see the benefit of all the young kids playing for another few seasons yet but the long term future is looking good.

By the 2019 world cup I'd expect the provinces to be made up of mostly local players and better quality. By then there should be no more than 3 NIQ players and they should have an abundance of local talent to choose from. That would make Irish rugby a real success story.

PhatPiggins

So what exactly is your point?

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

So what exactly is your point?

I am wondering this too.

Irish players playing in Irish teams, who gives a toss where they came from originally? It works for the province, it works for the player and it works for the national team.

Edit - though it does piss me off seeing Felix Jones playing for Munster tbh, he would definitely be getting gametime at Leinster now. But that's a whole different argument.

profitius

PhatPiggins wrote: »

So what exactly is your point?

My point is the number of outsiders playing for the provinces. I'm sure I left a clue or two in that long post.

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

I am wondering this too.

Irish players playing in Irish teams, who gives a toss where they came from originally? It works for the province, it works for the player and it works for the national team.

So if the provinces were full of NIQ players you wouldn't mind? It'd hardly be good for Irish rugby.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

So if the provinces were full of NIQ players you wouldn't mind? It'd hardly be good for Irish rugby.

Could you try reading my post again please.

thomond2006

profitius wrote: »

So if the provinces were full of NIQ players you wouldn't mind? It'd hardly be good for Irish rugby.

I don't think that's what he meant tbh.

B0X

Who cares if the players aren't from the province they're playing for? As long as they're Irish qualified it makes feck all difference.

danthefan

Barnes - NZ
Borlase - NZ
Dowling - Kilkenny
Du Preez - South Africa
Howlett - NZ
Mafi - Samoa
Jones - Dublin
Johne Murphy - Meath?
Niall Ronon - Meath
Tuitopou - NZ
Warwick - Australia

The non Leinstermen in the Leinster squad:
Van Der Merwe - South Africa
Strauss - South Africa
Boss - NZ
Ross - Cork
Fogarty - Cork
O'Donoghue - Australia
Reddan - Limerick.
Keogh - Limerick
Hogan - Tipperary
Stan Wright - Cook islands
Nacewa - Samoa
Hines - Australia/Scotland
Berne - Australia
Galarza - Argentina
Shawe - Ulster
Ben Prescott - England

Just to make things a little less ridiculous the bolded are all Irish/Irish qualified, italicised have been signed on short term contracts for injury cover only.

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

Could you try reading my post again please.

Ok my mistake.

My main point is the need to bring in outside players. Leinster have few scrumhalfs in the past decade. Theres 2 proven international 10's. John Hayes has been holding up the scrums for the decade. POC and DOC have been there for years without a challenge. The centers have been BOD and D'Arcy for years.

Jones going to Munster is good for Munster and it means Leinster are producing plenty of fullbacks. It also shows how Munster are lacking in back 3 players. The backline against Edinburgh is F Jones; D Howlett, J Murphy, S Tuitupou, I Dowling; P Warwick, P Stringer. One player from Munster and Stringer came through over a decade ago.

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

Just to make things a little less ridiculous the bolded are all Irish/Irish qualified, italicised have been signed on short term contracts for injury cover only.

The thread is about the provinces producing players. Sure overall its not too bad but Leinster have a lack of scrumhalfs and Hookers, Munster lack backs. I don't know when was the last Munster inside center.

They're doing the right thing by letting players move around but its papering over the cracks.

BTW folks, I'm not complaining I'm examining Irish rugby. Taking off the rose tinted glasses. As I said earlier the future looks good.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

Ok my mistake.

My main point is the need to bring in outside players. Leinster have few scrumhalfs in the past decade. Theres 2 proven international 10's. John Hayes has been holding up the scrums for the decade. POC and DOC have been there for years without a challenge. The centers have been BOD and D'Arcy for years.

So what? Do you want a different side every week or something? If Leinster don't have a good SH and Munster have 2 it makes perfect sense for one to move to Leinster, I cannot see any sort of an issue here. They've had to bring in a player from outside, but who cares? What difference does it make?

Jones going to Munster is good for Munster and it means Leinster are producing plenty of fullbacks. It also shows how Munster are lacking in back 3 players. The backline against Edinburgh is F Jones; D Howlett, J Murphy, S Tuitupou, I Dowling; P Warwick, P Stringer. One player from Munster and Stringer came through over a decade ago.

There are 4 Irish qualified players there with Earls, Hurley, ROG and TOL all out.

profitius wrote: »

The thread is about the provinces producing players. Sure overall its not too bad but Leinster have a lack of scrumhalfs and Hookers, Munster lack backs. I don't know when was the last Munster inside center.

They're doing the right thing by letting players move around but its papering over the cracks.

You are saying there's something wrong with Irish players moving between provinces. There isn't, quite the opposite in fact.

PhatPiggins

profitius wrote: »

The thread is about the provinces producing players. Sure overall its not too bad but Leinster have a lack of scrumhalfs and Hookers, Munster lack backs. I don't know when was the last Munster inside center.

They're doing the right thing by letting players move around but its papering over the cracks.

BTW folks, I'm not complaining I'm examining Irish rugby. Taking off the rose tinted glasses. As I said earlier the future looks good.

The only thing that matters is that the provences(bar TH and thats down to genetics) are producing enough players in every position for every provence. It doesn't make a jot of difference if Munster produce 6 second rows and Leinster produce 5 full backs. They're shared around the teams regardless.

I think you're making something out of nothing to be honest

Amazotheamazing

Barnes moved to Tralee when he was 10, he's 21 now, surely he's done enough to be considered a local at this stage? Why not call Heaslip Israeli if that's the standard you are applying?

Also, Isa Nacewa was born in New Zealand and Mafi was born in Tonga and then moved to NZ, so how do you make out he's Samoan?

profitius

I've no problem with players moving around. I think its a good thing for the players and its sensible. In fact I think alot of fringe players should be moving to Connacht because it'll benefit everyone.

I'm just pointing out where the individual provinces need to strengthen. I'm showing where theres a weakness.

Lets look at the NIQ players. They're needed to strengthen areas of weakness in teams. If the provinces neglect those areas of weakness then nothing will change in the long term.

Wise people usually learn from their mistakes. Stubborn people won't accpet they made a mistake. I'm sure by looking at areas of weakness the provinces can see where they need to improve. I'm confident this is happening.

Now some might "so what?". If you think the current Irish system is perfect thats perfectly fine by me. I don't and I'm explaining why in this thread.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Barnes moved to Tralee when he was 10, he's 21 now, surely he's done enough to be considered a local at this stage? Why not call Heaslip Israeli if that's the standard you are applying?

Also, Isa Nacewa was born in New Zealand and Mafi was born in Tonga and then moved to NZ, so how do you make out he's Samoan?

Heaslip has Irish parents in fairness. Actually I think they're from Munster but thats a different story. But I'm not getting into the exact location of birth and who are the parents etc because its not the point I'm making.

With Barnes, yeah you're right. He went through the Munster system so maybe I shouldn't have included him on the list. Its interesting though that he came from a club and having being originally living in NZ he was very much into rugby. I reckon the popularity of rugby is the reason we'll see more talent coming through in years to come.

sock puppet

It's hardly unique to Irish rugby. Have a look at how many Stormers players are actually from the Western Cape.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

I've no problem with players moving around. I think its a good thing for the players and its sensible. In fact I think alot of fringe players should be moving to Connacht because it'll benefit everyone.

I'm just pointing out where the individual provinces need to strengthen. I'm showing where theres a weakness.

Lets look at the NIQ players. They're needed to strengthen areas of weakness in teams. If the provinces neglect those areas of weakness then nothing will change in the long term.

Wise people usually learn from their mistakes. Stubborn people won't accpet they made a mistake. I'm sure by looking at areas of weakness the provinces can see where they need to improve. I'm confident this is happening.

Now some might "so what?". If you think the current Irish system is perfect thats perfectly fine by me. I don't and I'm explaining why in this thread.



Heaslip has Irish parents in fairness. Actually I think they're from Munster but thats a different story. But I'm not getting into the exact location of birth and who are the parents etc because its not the point I'm making.

With Barnes, yeah you're right. He went through the Munster system so maybe I shouldn't have included him on the list. Its interesting though that he came from a club and having being originally living in NZ he was very much into rugby. I reckon the popularity of rugby is the reason we'll see more talent coming through in years to come.

Afaik, Barnes' mother is from Kerry, could be wrong though. Yeah, Heaslip's dad is from Limerick city, we've disowned him though. I'm trying to get Kerry to disown Sexton but you know what they're like down there...

There's a bit of talent coming through from Kerry atm, as you'd expect considering the football culture they have.

Foxtrol

PhatPiggins wrote: »

The only thing that matters is that the provences(bar TH and thats down to genetics) are producing enough players in every position for every provence. It doesn't make a jot of difference if Munster produce 6 second rows and Leinster produce 5 full backs. They're shared around the teams regardless.

I think you're making something out of nothing to be honest

I have to say it makes perfect sense for players to move around provinces to fill gaps but at the same time moves like Jones' leave a bitter taste in the mouth. (Don't even get me started at the disrespect Niall Ronan showed after his move :mad:)

PhatPiggins

But your not explaining anything profitus. You're offering no solution to what you consider a problem. TH is the only problem position in this country and every NIQ player has at least two talented but raw academy players waiting to take his place. Name any NIQ in the country and I'll name 2 young Irishmen nearly ready to take their place.

Wise people usually learn from their mistakes. Stubborn people won't accpet they made a mistake. I'm sure by looking at areas of weakness the provinces can see where they need to improve. I'm confident this is happening.

You should listen to that yourself because what I'm sure you intended to be a constructive thread reads like a pile of xenophobic nonsense.

Amazotheamazing

Foxtrol wrote: »

I have to say it makes perfect sense for players to move around provinces to fill gaps but at the same time moves like Jones' leave a bitter taste in the mouth. (Don't even get me started at the disrespect Niall Ronan showed after his move :mad:)

Why would Jones leaving leave a bitter taste in the mouth? He's always been pretty respectful about his time with Leinster. I can understand why Ronan might annoy you but if he's being honest what of it?

sock puppet

Foxtrol wrote: »

I have to say it makes perfect sense for players to move around provinces to fill gaps but at the same time moves like Jones' leave a bitter taste in the mouth. (Don't even get me started at the disrespect Niall Ronan showed after his move :mad:)

I'm just glad it's not like other countries where teams' star players switch teams regularly!

Foxtrol

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why would Jones leaving leave a bitter taste in the mouth? He's always been pretty respectful about his time with Leinster.

It looks like either one province targeting another's young talent or a player who wasn't willing to pay his dues and wait for his chance. Either way its not good for the Academy's or Province's to be forced to start their young talent before they're ready for fear of them being poached by another Province. (I'd have understand if Jones hadn't gotten an opportunity last or this season with Leinster and then moved but he didn't wait or back himself to win a place on the team)

I can understand why Ronan might annoy you but if he's being honest what of it?

If you read that interview you can see the lack of class he showed. I'm sure Hogan, Fogarty, Ross, Redden and Keogh have their own feelings about how they were treated by Munster but have the decency not to go to the papers sticking the knife in at their former employers and team mates.

Im pretty sure Shaggy was showing Ronan a bit of that "passion" when he tackled him in the air last season...

profitius

PhatPiggins wrote: »

But your not explaining anything profitus. You're offering no solution to what you consider a problem. TH is the only problem position in this country and every NIQ player has at least two talented but raw academy players waiting to take his place. Name any NIQ in the country and I'll name 2 young Irishmen nearly ready to take their place.

Wise people usually learn from their mistakes. Stubborn people won't accpet they made a mistake. I'm sure by looking at areas of weakness the provinces can see where they need to improve. I'm confident this is happening.

You should listen to that yourself because what I'm sure you intended to be a constructive thread reads like a pile of xenophobic nonsense.

Are you ok bud? You'd seriously want to calm down a bit and read what I wrote again. No offense taken.

justsomebloke

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Name any NIQ in the country and I'll name 2 young Irishmen nearly ready to take their place.

Yes but for every NIQ in the country can you name young Irishmen GOOD enough to take their position.

The current popularity of Rugby is down to the Irish provinces and Irish Team winning the big titles. To win you need the best players. So if a position can't be filled by an Irish player or reginonal player that is good enough then of course they need to look else where to fill the gap.

Building a good team doesn't mean getting a team of individually good players, it is about building a team of people who can work well together and some times some players just don't fit in to certain teams due to the style they play and may work better in another set up so why stifle these players by forcing them to stay in their region.

As for NIQ players people often forget how important these people are to the development of IRISH players. During the long stints when the Irish internationals are away on training camps on international duty these are the players that are giving young Irish talent the chance to come through and play with top Quality Irish players. Yes they will be learning from just playing against top quality players but they will learn a LOT more from playing WITH top quality players.

Truthfully if there is a problem it is in youth development in encouraging kids at the positions we are weak so that we get future players that are good enough to play at the highest level

theKramer

Foxtrol wrote: »

Im pretty sure Shaggy was showing Ronan a bit of that "passion" when he tackled him in the air last season...

You sir, are an idiot :rolleyes: Your username is aptly selected.

P.S. Im sure a player like Shaggy, whom I cant ever remember getting a Yellow card, would do something like that to another professional, coz hes got respect, unlike you :rolleyes:

outwest

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Name any NIQ in the country and I'll name 2 young Irishmen nearly ready to take their place.

howlett
hines
ofisa
upton


look forward to your reply. you did say u could name 2


does it matter where the player come from, it was a very good week for the irish provences. and yet most of the team were still made up of irsh qaulidifed players

redroar1942

outwest wrote: »

howlett
hines
ofisa
upton


look forward to your reply. you did say u could name 2


does it matter where the player come from, it was a very good week for the irish provences. and yet most of the team were still made up of irsh qaulidifed players

Not my post but I did think he said nearly ready

Howlett- pick any 2 of the back 3 prospects coming out of Leinster/Munster/Ulster in their droves

Hines/Upton - Nagle/Foley/Toner/Brown

Ofsia(interesting choice) - O Donnel/Ryan

Some of those players aren't as good as the guys you listed at this moment in time but they could be in 3/4 years time and seeing as this is a thread about the future of Irish rugby I too don't see what the OP is trying to get at.

You've also got a second tier of more experienced players who can easily replace your list within the next 18 months.

Howlett -Murphy/Conway/Deasy

Hines/Upton - O Donohue/Ryan/Holland

Ofsia - Anderson/Faloon

It'll involve players moving between provinces but surely thats the point of having a centralised union.

TheTMO

profitius wrote: »

I just came accross a debate about the provinces and the amount of players playing thats actually from the province. The numbers are surprisingly lower than people would think.

This is the Munster starting team for tomorrow: F Jones; D Howlett, J Murphy, S Tuitupou, I Dowling; P Warwick, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, T Buckley; D Ryan, M O'Driscoll; A Quinlan, N Ronan, D Leamy capt. The highlighted players are all from Munster. You'll notice thats 7 out of the starting 15.


So I'll concentrate on Munster and Leinster. Ulster and Connacht are similar.
The non Munstermen in the Munster squad:
Barnes - NZ
Borlase - NZ
Dowling - Kilkenny
Du Preez - South Africa
Howlett - NZ
Mafi - Samoa
Jones - Dublin
Johne Murphy - Meath?
Niall Ronon - Meath
Tuitopou - NZ
Warwick - Australia

Dennis Hurley's from Meath apparently.

handsomecake

johne murphy is from kildare town. played flyhalf for cill dara as a nipper( i played against him).then he went to newbridge college.he is not from meath op

handsomecake

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Afaik, Barnes' mother is from Kerry, could be wrong though. Yeah, Heaslip's dad is from Limerick city, we've disowned him though. I'm trying to get Kerry to disown Sexton but you know what they're like down there...

There's a bit of talent coming through from Kerry atm, as you'd expect considering the football culture they have.

heaslip has lived in naas most of his life

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why would Jones leaving leave a bitter taste in the mouth? He's always been pretty respectful about his time with Leinster. I can understand why Ronan might annoy you but if he's being honest what of it?

He was a devout Leinster follower so I doubt he would of been disrespectful to be honest.

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Afaik, Barnes' mother is from Kerry, could be wrong though. Yeah, Heaslip's dad is from Limerick city, we've disowned him though. I'm trying to get Kerry to disown Sexton but you know what they're like down there...

There's a bit of talent coming through from Kerry atm, as you'd expect considering the football culture they have.

Why does it matter where people's parents are from? My dads from Scotland but I dont in anyway consider myself Scottish.

Really a rural Ireland thing, ah sure his grand dads from co.clare hes a true clare man! I always cringe when little towns try to claim someone as a native because he has a relative from there.

profitius

redroar1942 wrote: »

Some of those players aren't as good as the guys you listed at this moment in time but they could be in 3/4 years time and seeing as this is a thread about the future of Irish rugby I too don't see what the OP is trying to get at.

The thread is about the current state of Irish rugby. I'm looking at the provinces and pointing out their areas of weakness which if highlighted by the need to bring in outsiders because they're not producing enough quality in certain areas.

Its not about where they're from its about the need for them.

I'm looking at areas that needs improving. Some people can't see anything wrong it seems which is fine by me but for Irish rugby to improve we need to identify areas of improving.

Amazotheamazing

TheTMO wrote: »

Why does it matter where people's parents are from? My dads from Scotland but I dont in anyway consider myself Scottish.

Really a rural Ireland thing, ah sure his grand dads from co.clare hes a true clare man! I always cringe when little towns try to claim someone as a native because he has a relative from there.

Do you consider Ciaran Ruddock Irish? Or Maguire? or Geogheon? Or the Easterby's? Malcolm O'Kelly was born in England, do you consider him English?

How about Fitz? Lived in Cork til he was 12, played underage with Con, is from Cork considering he spent half his life there? Or Barnes, is he a Kerryman or a New Zealander?

JustinDee

TheTMO wrote: »

Really a rural Ireland thing, ah sure his grand dads from co.clare hes a true clare man! I always cringe when little towns try to claim someone as a native because he has a relative from there.

Its just subjective and convenient. Its also fairly irrelevant.

Nobody gave two stuffs when Ray Houghton scored against Italy in '94, Trent Johnston captained Ireland to a win over Pakistan or Simon Geoghegan scored a try vs England.

If people think the provincial setup is supposed to reflect some form of allegiance 'Origin'-style, they'd be mistaken.

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Do you consider Ciaran Ruddock Irish? Or Maguire? or Geogheon? Or the Easterby's? Malcolm O'Kelly was born in England, do you consider him English?

How about Fitz? Lived in Cork til he was 12, played underage with Con, is from Cork considering he spent half his life there? Or Barnes, is he a Kerryman or a New Zealander?

You're very much missing my point. It's about using common sense. Ronan O'Gara is not american because he was born there. Heaslip is not Israeli. Malcom O'Kelly is quite clearly Irish. Luke Fitzgerald is very much a dub considering he went to school in Dublin, is an avid follower of Dublin football and plays for Leinster (he turned down Munster contract btw) I'd hazard a quess he very much looks on himself as a Dubliner.

As for Barnes, I dont know as I dont know whether he himself considers himself a NZer or Kerryman as I really dont know much about him.

Stev_o

This thread is derailing extremely fast. Mods bit of a cop on comment?

The most pressing issues and it will always be a the main issue is the use of overseas props to bluster up provinces. Now the new idea is that when doing this project players ie people who can qualify on residency grounds will be selected if they can't find a immediate replacement. Surely though there should be a good few high standard props around the AIL? Mean Shawe was bossing the Glasgow scrum around. They might not have a lot to offer out in the loose but they'd be up to speed on all things tight.

Amazotheamazing

TheTMO wrote: »

You're very much missing my point. It's about using common sense. Ronan O'Gara is not american because he was born there. Heaslip is not Israeli. Malcom O'Kelly is quite clearly Irish. Luke Fitzgerald is very much a dub considering he went to school in Dublin, is an avid follower of Dublin football and plays for Leinster (he turned down Munster contract btw) I'd hazard a quess he very much looks on himself as a Dubliner.

As for Barnes, I dont know as I dont know whether he himself considers himself a NZer or Kerryman as I really dont know much about him.

I think you have an overly simplistic point. Identity isn't always clear cut.

Geogeheon never lived in Ireland for a long period of time, but he considers himself Irish.

Maggs and Henderson moved here later in their careers, long after they had played for Ireland, they considered themselves Irish.

Simon Easterby never lived here but he's Irish.

According to your common sense, all of the above aren't Irish, but I suspect if you told them that to their face they'd laugh.

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think you have an overly simplistic point. Identity isn't always clear cut.

Geogeheon never lived in Ireland for a long period of time, but he considers himself Irish.

Maggs and Henderson moved here later in their careers, long after they had played for Ireland, they considered themselves Irish.

Simon Easterby never lived here but he's Irish.

According to your common sense, all of the above aren't Irish, but I suspect if you told them that to their face they'd laugh.

No, thats exactly what I mean. Its what the player himself considers his nationality that is what matters. Hence my point that I don't understand why people from Clare try to claim a player as their own because he has a relative from there when the player himself clearly considers himself a Dubliner/Corkonian/Kerryman etc.

An example is seen in my statements from this post http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67936188&postcount=36 :

"As for Barnes, I dont know as I dont know whether he himself considers himself a NZer or Kerryman as I really dont know much about him. "

"Luke Fitzgerald is very much a dub considering he went to school in Dublin, is an avid follower of Dublin football and plays for Leinster (he turned down Munster contract btw) I'd hazard a quess he very much looks on himself as a Dubliner"

Amazotheamazing

TheTMO wrote: »

No, thats exactly what I mean. Its what the player himself considers his nationality that is what matters. Hence my point that I don't understand why people from Clare try to claim a player as their own because he has a relative from there when the player himself clearly considers himself a Dubliner/Corkonian/Kerryman etc.

An example is seen in my statements from this post http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67936188&postcount=36 :

"As for Barnes, I dont know as I dont know whether he himself considers himself a NZer or Kerryman as I really dont know much about him. "

"Luke Fitzgerald is very much a dub considering he went to school in Dublin, is an avid follower of Dublin football and plays for Leinster (he turned down Munster contract btw) I'd hazard a quess he very much looks on himself as a Dubliner"

How so, if you consider yourself Irish despite your dad being Scottish, why would the English born Henderson not be English despite his parents being Irish?

Is it only down to how someone feels?

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

How so, if you consider yourself Irish despite your dad being Scottish, why would the English born Henderson not be English despite his parents being Irish?

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying but as an aside :

Henderson wasn't born in England and both his parents weren't Irish. His mother was Irish and his father was Scottish. He was brought up as an Irish child and lived in Ireland until he was 8. He played for London Irish and stated that he always considered himself Irish and nothing else

Is it only down to how someone feels?

Yes. If for example, Henderson was as heavily influenced by his father as he was by his mother and immersed himself in the Scottish ex pat community etc. then he could of just as easily called himself Scottish. If however, he felt that growing up from 8 onwards and being schooled in England made him consider himself english, once again that would be just as valid. It all comes down to the player. But if a Scottish man or English man tried to call Henderson a Scottish or English player because he grew up there (England) or has a relative from there (Scotland) when the player himself considers himself Irish then thats not right.


Also, are you changing your stance just because you got mixed up or something? Because in post #38 you seem to agree with me that it comes down to what the player consider themselves to be? Now you seem to have changed your mind?

Foxtrol

theKramer wrote: »

You sir, are an idiot :rolleyes: Your username is aptly selected.

P.S. Im sure a player like Shaggy, whom I cant ever remember getting a Yellow card, would do something like that to another professional, coz hes got respect, unlike you :rolleyes:

Thanks for your contribution but there's really no need for name calling & just to note the only disrespectful character in this was Niall Ronan. I saw with my own eyes how high Ronan was off the ground when Shaggy tackled him & from my perspective it couldn't have been accidental. This would hardly be the first time it was ever suspected that one pro took out a personal gripe against another pro on the pitch so I don't know what you're outraged at.

To follow on from the current discussion there's a big difference between actually considering yourself from Ireland/Munster/Leinster and acting like you do for personal gain (eg: get a new contract, get international caps). Personally in a perfect world I'd prefer a national team who are from and/or consider themselves Irish rather than a team full of project players.

Amazotheamazing

TheTMO wrote: »

Also, are you changing your stance just because you got mixed up or something? Because in post #38 you seem to agree with me that it comes down to what the player consider themselves to be? Now you seem to have changed your mind?

Haven't changed my mind, my point, which you seem to be agreeing with is that heritage can be important. You say you find it cringeworthy when places claim players as their own (or let's say Ennis and Ali) but clearly some people like that connection, Maggs, Geogheon, the Easterby's etc. They identify more strongly with that connection then the place they've actually grown up. Common sense says that Geogheon is English, born there, educated there, works there but clearly he himself thinks as himself as Irish.

Sexton has spoken about his summers spent playing football in Kerry, his father is from Kerry, even his godfather is a Kerryman, I'm sure he feels a connection to the place so why shouldn't Listowel (iirc) be glad of that connection? I was joking when I said Limerick had disowned Heaslip and I was trying to get Kerry to disown Sexton, just to be clear, i have not started a mass campaign to get Kerry to disown Sexton.

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Haven't changed my mind, my point, which you seem to be agreeing with is that heritage can be important. You say you find it cringeworthy when places claim players as their own (or let's say Ennis and Ali) but clearly some people like that connection, Maggs, Geogheon, the Easterby's etc. They identify more strongly with that connection then the place they've actually grown up. Common sense says that Geogheon is English, born there, educated there, works there but clearly he himself thinks as himself as Irish.

Sexton has spoken about his summers spent playing football in Kerry, his father is from Kerry, even his godfather is a Kerryman, I'm sure he feels a connection to the place so why shouldn't Listowel (iirc) be glad of that connection? I was joking when I said Limerick had disowned Heaslip and I was trying to get Kerry to disown Sexton, just to be clear, i have not started a mass campaign to get Kerry to disown Sexton.

I wasn't really referring to Sexton as I'm pretty sure hes stated before that he supported Kerry football or something along those lines so he obviously considers himself just as much as part of Kerry as Dublin.

But as for the Fitzgerald example, the guy quite clearly considers himself a dub considering hes an avid fan of Dublin football and rejected a contract from Munster to play for Leinster as he said he'd always dreamed of playing for Leinster.

Similarily the Heaslip example. His dads from Limerick but to say hes a Limerick man is ridiculous on that sole basis.

Like I repeatedly said, its what the player considers themselves, NOT what people consider them to be.

You're missing my point really, my problem is places claiming players as their own because the player has relatives from there/grew up there etc. when the player himself quite clearly doesn't consider himself from there.

Amazotheamazing

TheTMO wrote: »

Similarily the Heaslip example. His dads from Limerick but to say hes a Limerick man is ridiculous on that sole basis.

When has Limerick ever tried to claim Heaslip? He's as much Israeli as he is from Limerick, moreso maybe. I think someone said he was more Irish than Israeli because his father is from Limerick but that's it.

Btw, do you have a source for the Fitz Munster contract, it's always been rumoured that the offer was a fictional one from his agent, I've never seen any proof an offer was there.

TheTMO

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

When has Limerick ever tried to claim Heaslip? He's as much Israeli as he is from Limerick, moreso maybe. I think someone said he was more Irish than Israeli because his father is from Limerick but that's it.

Btw, do you have a source for the Fitz Munster contract, it's always been rumoured that the offer was a fictional one from his agent, I've never seen any proof an offer was there.

I'm using Heaslip as an example I don't know whether Limerick try to claim him or not, you brought it up but its a valid example whether it is the case or not.

I think Thornley or Hook broke the news that Munster and an overseas club had offered him a contract. It was widely reported at the time that Cheika was under huge pressure to give him a full contract coming straight out of school because Munster and an unnamed overseas club offered a contract. I also know indirectly through friends of Fitzgerald that he was offered a contract most defiently from Munster.

thehighground

TheTMO wrote: »

I'm using Heaslip as an example I don't know whether Limerick try to claim him or not, you brought it up but its a valid example whether it is the case or not.

I think Thornley or Hook broke the news that Munster and an overseas club had offered him a contract. It was widely reported at the time that Cheika was under huge pressure to give him a full contract coming straight out of school because Munster and an unnamed overseas club offered a contract. I also know indirectly through friends of Fitzgerald that he was offered a contract most defiently from Munster.

I think the story goes that Leinster didn't want to offer Fitz a full contract straight out of school, so Fitz's father Des (who had played for Cork Con and where Fitz started playing rugby as a kid) approached Munster who were willing to give him a contract which put the pressure on Leinster then.

By the way, isn't Fitzy from Enniskerry (which is in Wicklow, not Dublin)!

JustinDee

Stev_o wrote: »

This thread is derailing extremely fast

Hilariously so.

RuggieBear

theKramer wrote: »

You sir, are an idiot :rolleyes: Your username is aptly selected.

Read the charter. name calling is not permitted.

Stev_o wrote: »

This thread is derailing extremely fast. Mods bit of a cop on comment?.

JustinDee wrote: »

Hilariously so.

It would be more helpful when you think there is a problem with the thread/post/etc that you report it instead of posting about it on thread. It brings any issues to our attention much much quicker

JustinDee

RuggieBear wrote: »

It would be more helpful when you think there is a problem with the thread/post/etc that you report it instead of posting about it on thread. It brings any issues to our attention much much quicker

Am I being scolded?
No worries. Shall do.

Stev_o

RuggieBear wrote: »

It would be more helpful when you think there is a problem with the thread/post/etc that you report it instead of posting about it on thread. It brings any issues to our attention much much quicker

Sadly was in work and any url that contains "mail" in it is automatically blocked