Overloaded Car

Classics

Hi Boards,

We're going to have a family friend staying with us for a while, which will make 6 occupants in the household. With only one car, I can see there being situations where there will be 6 of us having to make use of our 5-seater car.

I feel it's best to ask here if it is an offence rather than learn first hand (:eek:).
The only relevant information I found was regarding an unrestrained passenger under the age of 17 resulting in 2 penalty points (luckily this will not apply here).

Thanks in advance.

TangyZizzle

So you'll have one unrestrained passenger over the age of 17? That's illegal :P

Classics

I know it's "illegal", I suppose I could have been clearer.

I want to know if it impacts on the driver in any way.
An unrestrained passenger over 17 will receive a fine themselves, not the driver. I want to know if this is still the case if the passenger in question doesn't have a designated seat.

thenightrider

Get the bus

It is against the law and if you have a crash you insurance will be null and void.

John C

Classics wrote: »

I know it's "illegal", I suppose I could have been clearer.

I want to know if it impacts on the driver in any way.
An unrestrained passenger over 17 will receive a fine themselves, not the driver. I want to know if this is still the case if the passenger in question doesn't have a designated seat.

Most vehicles have only five seat belts. In the event of an accident, there could be an impact that could lead to an injury claim.

If an unbuckled person with no seat belt available to him is injured, who pays for his hospital bills?
I am neither a solicitor nor an insurance agent.

Classics

John C wrote: »

If an unbuckled person with no seat belt available to him is injured, who pays for his hospital bills?
I am neither a solicitor nor an insurance agent.

I'm not sure whether that was an actual question or you are implying I would be liable for expenses. Regardless, I'd appreciate if people could move away from the warnings/advice and actually help me find the answer to my question.

I know this is not an ideal situation, but there is really no way around it.

TangyZizzle

If you crash and the unrestrained person dies or causes another passengers death, their blood will be on your hands.. take a hint..

FreudianSlippers

Classics wrote: »

I'm not sure whether that was an actual question or you are implying I would be liable for expenses. Regardless, I'd appreciate if people could move away from the warnings/advice and actually help me find the answer to my question.

I know this is not an ideal situation, but there is really no way around it.

If I just say yes and pretend that it's in some act that I can't be bothered looking up will you just not do it?

Classics

Ok, blood on the hands, got it. Will I have the Gardaí on my doorstep as well though?

Maybe it would be best to ignore the background from my first post.


From a purely hypothetical perspective, would the driver of a car that contained more passengers than seats be subject to any legal penalty/proceedings?

TangyZizzle

Yes!

Classics

Oh come on guys, just link me to a list of traffic offences/ traffic act which will answer my question and you'll be rid of me.

FreudianSlippers

Classics wrote: »

Oh come on guys, just link me to a list of traffic offences/ traffic act which will answer my question and you'll be rid of me.

ah you're no fun.

AFAIK there is no law which would effect the driver of the car in this situation.
Now, factor in crashes etc. and you're in a different boat.

Paulw

The driver will be in breach of the Road Traffic Act, 1933, Part II, Section 20.

Classics

Well it's a step in the right direction, but I don't see how

(1) The Minister may by regulations made by him under this Act prescribe the method of calculating for the purposes of this Act the passenger accommodation of mechanically propelled vehicles or of any classes or class of such vehicles, and may in such regulations distinguish between sitting accommodation and standing accommodation and between accommodation for adults and accommodation for children.
[GA]

(2) Every regulation made under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made, and if a resolution annulling such regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after such regulation is so laid before it, such regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such regulation.

applies here.

Paulw

You will have more passengers than the vehicle can accomodate. Your 5 seater car will have 6 passengers, therefore is in breach of that section.

The section has the ability to classify cars - 2 seater, 5 seater, 7 seater, etc (and even caters for busses, etc).

MagicSean

Surely it would invalidate your insurance and so you could be prosecuted for having no insurance and have your car seized. You could also be open to prosecution for dangerous driving or perhaps one of the lesser offences under Section 52 or 51a. Lets not forget the offence committed by not wearing a seatbelt and by allowing one of your passengers to travel without a seatbelt.

source

Op take a look at what happened in Kerry and Donegal in the last few weeks. Both cars were overloaded, and both crashes have resulted in numerous lives lost.

Surely these crashes should have sunken some bit of common sense into the minds of Irish people.

Do not overload your car, for the sake of the people you will be transporting, and for your own sake.....I cannot emphasise this enough.

FreudianSlippers

k_mac wrote: »

Surely it would invalidate your insurance and so you could be prosecuted for having no insurance and have your car seized. You could also be open to prosecution for dangerous driving or perhaps one of the lesser offences under Section 52 or 51a. Lets not forget the offence committed by not wearing a seatbelt and by allowing one of your passengers to travel without a seatbelt.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There must be a clause in all insurance agreements that you cannot overload your car, in turn opening you up to other offences.

slimjimmc

k_mac wrote: »

Surely it would invalidate your insurance and so you could be prosecuted for having no insurance and have your car seized. You could also be open to prosecution for dangerous driving or perhaps one of the lesser offences under Section 52 or 51a.

I don't think it can invalidate the 3rd party cover but it can invalidate any extra cover you have. It's my understanding that once your policy is paid up the insurance co. must honour 3rd party liabilities regardless of any offences, therefore you are legally insured and cannot be prosecuted. Just don't expect they won't come looking (law suit in hand) for full compensation for any payouts made.

k_mac wrote: »

Lets not forget the offence committed by not wearing a seatbelt and by allowing one of your passengers to travel without a seatbelt.

Don't these apply to passengers under the age of 17 only, i.e. no such offence for over 17's?

Classics

slimjimmc wrote: »

Don't these apply to passengers under the age of 17 only, i.e. no such offence for over 17's?

You are correct.

Thanks for the help so far guys, still a little iffy on what the penalty for breaking the '33 Road traffic Act is, where can I look it up?

thenightrider

Classics wrote: »

You are correct.

Thanks for the help so far guys, still a little iffy on what the penalty for breaking the '33 Road traffic Act is, where can I look it up?

By overlaoding your car YOU WILL BE VOIDING YOUR INSURANCE
Failure to have motor insurance when driving in Ireland is a very serious offence and drivers will incure fines, penalty points and may be disqualified from driving.


So cop on there is no way around it and if you do drive with an overloaded car i hope you are caught and get disqualified from driveing. It is only coman scense to not over load your car.

slimjimmc

thenightrider wrote: »

By overlaoding your car YOU WILL BE VOIDING YOUR INSURANCE
Failure to have motor insurance when driving in Ireland is a very serious offence and drivers will incure fines, penalty points and may be disqualified from driving.


So cop on there is no way around it and if you do drive with an overloaded car i hope you are caught and get disqualified from driveing. It is only coman scense to not over load your car.

Source????
Will your insurance also be void if you speed, cross a white line, have a bald tyre, etc?


[Edit]
SI 14/1962 explicitly prevents an insurer having any clause which prevents a 3rd party claim even if the insured driver breached any of the prohibited conditions listed in Schedule 1, and that includes the number of occupants (3e)
Subsequent ammendments actually reinforce this concept by adding more conditions that insurers must cover.

So, as you can see, the law says your insurance cannot be voided as a result of too many passengers, ergo no insurance offences comitted.

or have you evidence to the contrary?
[/Edit]

MagicSean

slimjimmc wrote: »

I don't think it can invalidate the 3rd party cover but it can invalidate any extra cover you have. It's my understanding that once your policy is paid up the insurance co. must honour 3rd party liabilities regardless of any offences, therefore you are legally insured and cannot be prosecuted. Just don't expect they won't come looking (law suit in hand) for full compensation for any payouts made.

It would seem you are right on that one.

slimjimmc wrote: »

Don't these apply to passengers under the age of 17 only, i.e. no such offence for over 17's?

I didn't think the op mentioned ages. The op will not be liable for anyone under 17 but they would be fined themselves.

Personally I would be looking to prosecute the op for dangerous driving.

Graces7

foinse wrote: »

Op take a look at what happened in Kerry and Donegal in the last few weeks. Both cars were overloaded, and both crashes have resulted in numerous lives lost.

Surely these crashes should have sunken some bit of common sense into the minds of Irish people.

Do not overload your car, for the sake of the people you will be transporting, and for your own sake.....I cannot emphasise this enough.

Thanks; you beat me to this.

And it seems people just don;t think it can happen to them...

D.McC

Oh for god's sake OP, just because there might not be an actual law to make your actions illegal doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.... :mad:

Is the goverment supposed to regulate for common sense.

I don't recall a law stating its illegal to place your hand in the fire, but you wouldn't do that... would you?

Grow up!

ToniTuddle

foinse wrote: »

Op take a look at what happened in Kerry and Donegal in the last few weeks. Both cars were overloaded, and both crashes have resulted in numerous lives lost.

Surely these crashes should have sunken some bit of common sense into the minds of Irish people.

You would think that but unfortunately as usual the answer is no.


Few options for the OP.

• Heading out for a meal and some alcoholic drinks? Get a 7 seater taxi. Or if none available get 2 regular taxis.
• Showing your family friend some local sights/whatever? Leave behind someone in your household who doesn't want to go.
• Not all of you will want to be crowding your family friends arse the whole time they are visiting.
• Another option. Let your family friend rent a car for the time they are there!
• Another option. Use taxis. Or walk. Or thumb.
• Family friend probably does not wish to die in an overcrowded car-just an assumption mind you...maybe they do!

PCPhoto

it sounds like the OP is testing for actual laws - in the event of being stopped by gardai (without considering the possibility of crashing) so they could respond and maintain driving.

OP - everyone else here has given you their opinions on the matter - dont overload the vehicle - not just for your own safety - but the safety of your passengers and other road users.

my own opinion is ....I have no problem with you filling your car with as many people as you want - but remember that when you are in the driver seat - you are responsible for everyone in the car - the more people you pack in - the more responsibility you are taking on.... if anyone gets injured its your fault as the driver....I dont care if you or anyone in the car dies.

the driver is in command of the vehicle and can refuse to drive if he/she is not comfortable with the amount of passengers (remember my dad years ago saying..."any more messing in the back seat and I'm turning this car around and we're going home")

Quaver

OP, if a seatbelt is fitted then you have to wear it, subject to certain exemptions. Have a look here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/roads-and-safety/seatbelts-when-motoring-in-ireland

Here's the legislation:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1971/en/si/0096.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0359.html
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7537-0.doc

FreudianSlippers

PCPhoto wrote: »

it sounds like the OP is testing for actual laws - in the event of being stopped by gardai (without considering the possibility of crashing) so they could respond and maintain driving.

OP - everyone else here has given you their opinions on the matter - dont overload the vehicle - not just for your own safety - but the safety of your passengers and other road users.

my own opinion is ....I have no problem with you filling your car with as many people as you want - but remember that when you are in the driver seat - you are responsible for everyone in the car - the more people you pack in - the more responsibility you are taking on.... if anyone gets injured its your fault as the driver....I dont care if you or anyone in the car dies.

the driver is in command of the vehicle and can refuse to drive if he/she is not comfortable with the amount of passengers (remember my dad years ago saying..."any more messing in the back seat and I'm turning this car around and we're going home")

That being said, if the passenger was injured due to the negligence of the driver (and lets be honest that most accidents are caused by negligence), the driver could/would still argue that it was contributory negligence on the part of the passenger to get into a car without a seatbelt.
On that same note, is it negligent at the outset to allow a passenger to be in your car unrestrained? I'd certainly argue (whether correct or not) that the answer to that is yes.
I think about those ads on recently with the child in the back unrestrained killing the person in the front. In a serious accident you are not only putting the unrestrained person in danger, but also everyone in the car.

Whether or not there is a law on the books that says that you cannot do this (where tbh there doesn't seem to be one for this specific scenario) doesn't mean there is not a legal concept imposing liability on the driver.

knotknowbody

What would peoples opinion be on somebody who rearranged the seatbelts in the rear of their car so that they had room for an extra one, they now had four seatbelts in the rear and four people could sit in the rear with a seatbelt for each of them, thus making their car a six seater.

This person used to regularly transport four people in the rear by making the smallest two share a seatbelt, myself i think he should just have changed to a seven seater but meh, he refused to take advice, at least everyone has their own seatbelt now.

slimjimmc

knotknowbody wrote: »

What would peoples opinion be on somebody who rearranged the seatbelts in the rear of their car so that they had room for an extra one, they now had four seatbelts in the rear and four people could sit in the rear with a seatbelt for each of them, thus making their car a six seater.

This person used to regularly transport four people in the rear by making the smallest two share a seatbelt, myself i think he should just have changed to a seven seater but meh, he refused to take advice, at least everyone has their own seatbelt now.

Rearranging the sealt belts may be technically ok provided it is done in a proper manner with all the mounting points and supporting structure reinforced and the entire job certified by a chartered vehicle engineer. But I doubt his insurance company would see it that way considering the vehicle is not designed to carry that number of people. If this is a DIY job it should be condemned. Does he have an NCT?

knotknowbody

yeah it's a diy job, his insurance is not aware of the modification and when going for nct he restores them to the manufacturers configuration until it is passed, he is basically only interested in getting through a garda checkpoint if he encounters one, in other words an idiot