Stableford score and handicap query

PGL

Hi folks

I have been playing golf approx 10 times a year for the past 3 years, and hence am still a bit of a novice. I am yet to play a competition, and have not been a member of a club up to now.

Anyway I would like to get a handle on what stableford scores are considered good, bad etc? Also stableford scores are obviously directly linked to your handicap, however I obviously do not have a handicap, and am unsure what it would be....

For the last year my average score has roughly been 95 strokes, which would suggest my handicap would be 23 - is this correct?

Myself and my mate played Grange Castle at the weekend, and picked a handicap of 18 each. I won with a stableford score of 29 points (included 5 pars). Is 29 a bad, average or good score for an 18 handicap? I reckon my handicap is definitely higher than 18, which would mean my stableford points would also increase....

I am thinking out loud a bit here, so sorry that I am rambling on a bit. Would just like to know what the general consensus is on stableford scores and handicaps.

cheers!

blackwaterfish

29 points is very average for any level of handicap.

katnia

Playing exactly to your handicap will give you 36 points so if your score more than this you have done very well, less then 36 points indicates that you didn't quite play to your handicap, so in your case 29 points meant that you were 7 shots worse than your '18' handicap, however, had you handicap been 23 as you reckon, you would of actually scored 34 points, which is obviously a lot closer to the mark. The key thing to remember is that 36 points = playing to your handicap, whatever that may be...

nosco

blackwaterfish wrote: »

29 points is very average for any level of handicap.

Completely unhelpful post.

The OP is a beginner who is wondering what their handicap should be. The stableford score is a direct relationship to the handicap he used, which clearly wasn't correct. As the other poster has said, it would suggest your handicap 'should' be 25(7 higher than 18 to give you the 'par' stableford score of 36). So, you could be right with your initial guess at 23 as its close enough and maybe you can play a little better than you did on that day.

Sandwlch

katnia wrote: »

The key thing to remember is that 36 points = playing to your handicap, whatever that may be...

This is incorrect and the big misunderstanding in the Congu handicap world. 36 points is playing to your handicap in a one off situation. If you average 36 points over multiple rounds, then you are not playing to your handicap, you are playing much better than it. People use this misunderstanding it to justify 'minding' handicaps either up or down, and to moan about how their handicap is not fair.

It changes a little from worst to best golfers, but your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day i.e. you should average a score of 32 or 33 points if you are playing to your handicap.

One round is too small a sample to give a reliable estimate to the OP on what his correct handicap should be, but, on the limited evidence, a handicap of 18 or 19 is more likely to be correct.

katnia

Sandwlch wrote: »

This is incorrect and the big misunderstanding in the Congu handicap world. 36 points is playing to your handicap in a one off situation. If you average 36 points over multiple rounds, then you are not playing to your handicap, you are playing much better than it. People use this misunderstanding it to justify 'minding' handicaps either up or down, and to moan about how their handicap is not fair.

It changes a little from worst to best golfers, but your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day i.e. you should average a score of 32 or 33 points if you are playing to your handicap.

One round is too small a sample to give a reliable estimate to the OP on what his correct handicap should be, but, on the limited evidence, a handicap of 18 or 19 is more likely to be correct.

I'm sorry but what your saying simply isn't true (I know what you mean by the way). If you play a round of stableford golf & score 36 points you have played to your handicap - exactly. It's like scoring a nett 72 on a par 72 course, you are playing exactly to your handicap. I wasn't getting into what the standard scratch is or what the CSS is on any given day, I was merely pointing out that if you play a round of stableford golf & return 36 points you have played to your given handicap, CSS is in relation to the playing of the course on a particular competition day and whether you have produced a round better than this that may enable your handicap to be cut. It still does not alter the fact that you have played to your handicap by returning 36 points.

nosco

Sandwlch wrote: »

This is incorrect and the big misunderstanding in the Congu handicap world. 36 points is playing to your handicap in a one off situation. If you average 36 points over multiple rounds, then you are not playing to your handicap, you are playing much better than it. People use this misunderstanding it to justify 'minding' handicaps either up or down, and to moan about how their handicap is not fair.

It changes a little from worst to best golfers, but your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day i.e. you should average a score of 32 or 33 points if you are playing to your handicap.

One round is too small a sample to give a reliable estimate to the OP on what his correct handicap should be, but, on the limited evidence, a handicap of 18 or 19 is more likely to be correct.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. None.

If you average 36 points over 10 rounds playing off the same handicap each time then you are playing to that handicap. Simple. If we start getting into standard scratch's then that changes things but there was no mention of that. "Your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day". What!?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about!

katnia

'It changes a little from worst to best golfers, but your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day i.e. you should average a score of 32 or 33 points if you are playing to your handicap'


If you played like this your handicap would go out indicating that you are not able to play off that handicap, this makes no sense at all. Can you please explain this rationale?

blackwaterfish

nosco wrote: »

Completely unhelpful post.

oh boo hoo.... whatever will i do with myself.

i was the first to reply to the OP an hour after the guy had posted his request for help and no one else had bothered at that stage. didnt have time to go into nitty gritty so i addressed one of his queries... " Is 29 a bad, average or good score for an 18 handicap?"

sector

PGL, as usual an argument has erupted, lol.

Shoot me your scores for the 18 holes at Grange Castle and I'll assume the same for 2 more rounds and we'll work it out for ya, I'll explain how in my reply.

Cheers.

harpsman

nosco wrote: »

Completely unhelpful post.

The OP is a beginner who is wondering what their handicap should be. The stableford score is a direct relationship to the handicap he used, which clearly wasn't correct. As the other poster has said, it would suggest your handicap 'should' be 25(7 higher than 18 to give you the 'par' stableford score of 36). So, you could be right with your initial guess at 23 as its close enough and maybe you can play a little better than you did on that day.

Not at all an unheplful post.the op asked is 29 a good score to which was replied its a pretty average score.
if you reckon a fair handicap for you is 23 then give yourself 23 when youre playing with your mate-that way you have a better idea how good you plyed at end.
not rocket science

harpsman

katnia wrote: »

'It changes a little from worst to best golfers, but your average score should be 4 or 5 shots WORSE than standard scratch score of he day i.e. you should average a score of 32 or 33 points if you are playing to your handicap'


If you played like this your handicap would go out indicating that you are not able to play off that handicap, this makes no sense at all. Can you please explain this rationale?

no it wouldnt because if you say shoot 30 points one day your hcap will only go up 0.1 but if you shoot 40 points the next day you could lose up to a full shot off your hcap,so it is true to maintain your hcap at same level your average score should probably be about 34.

Sandwlch

Please see attached - filed under 'myths and misconceptions'. The reaction above is typical, and I guess the failing of handicap authorities to inform people how the handicap system is designed (leading people into the 'I cant play to this handicap - I need to get some point ones back' mentality)

http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=170

There is a rationale to it. And it makes some sense.

katnia

harpsman wrote: »

no it wouldnt because if you say shoot 30 points one day your hcap will only go up 0.1 but if you shoot 40 points the next day you could lose up to a full shot off your hcap,so it is true to maintain your hcap at same level your average score should probably be about 34.

Wrong again i'm afraid, the other poster didn't talk about shooting 40 points, he spoke of consitantly shooting 32,33 points etc and then maybe shooting 36, at no stage did he mention playing better than the allocated handicap, so your answering a point that wasn't made. It's obvious that if you shoot better than your handicap then more than likely you would be cut at some stage, which of course is true, however the other poster reckons that to play to your handicap involves consistanly shooting scores above the handicap, which just does not stack up.

katnia

Sandwlch wrote: »

Please see attached - filed under 'myths and misconceptions'. The reaction above is typical, and I guess the failing of handicap authorities to inform people how the handicap system is designed (leading people into the 'I cant play to this handicap - I need to get some point ones back' mentality)

http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=170

There is a rationale to it. And it makes some sense.

Thanks for the link, when I look at this it shows that a category 1 player is going to shoot a consistantly better score than a category 4 player which is obviously true, This looks at returned scores over a longer period and there will be some variables with all golfers, i.e they don't all go out & shoot 36 points every round. However - getting back to the original point that was made, playing to your handicap will return a score of 36 points. I take on board your points and it's not as easy as going out and shooting 36 points every round but I think in the context the OP was made it was & is correct for the answer to be 36 points IMO...

Plusfours

You sound to me more like an 18 than a 23 handicapper. If you can score 5 pars (and you haven't said this was anything unusual) I wouldn't be surprised if you were given 16 as a starting handicap by a club. A 23 handicapper who can score 5 pars is liable to post a big score when he gets playing a bit more regularly.
Cut down on the scratches/doubles and you're away in a hack.

nosco

katnia wrote: »

Wrong again i'm afraid, the other poster didn't talk about shooting 40 points, he spoke of consitantly shooting 32,33 points etc and then maybe shooting 36, at no stage did he mention playing better than the allocated handicap, so your answering a point that wasn't made. It's obvious that if you shoot better than your handicap then more than likely you would be cut at some stage, which of course is true, however the other poster reckons that to play to your handicap involves consistanly shooting scores above the handicap, which just does not stack up.

Bang on

PhilipMarlowe

Christ on a stick.
Playing to your handicap will return a score within the buffer zone, not necessarily the magic 36. You might feel like you played to your handicap if you shoot 36 points. You may even feel more like that if you bogey the holes you have a shot on and par all the rest and have no birdies and no doubles (and have 36 putts too for good measure) but it doesn't change the fact that playing to your handicap is shooting within the buffer for your category.
On a given day, depending on the tees used and the weather and your category, this could be anything from 27-38 points.
E.g. SSS at my home course off the back tees is +2 so 34 points.
On a bad weather day the CSS could go to SSS +3 so that could potentially be 31 points.
A category 4 golfer then would be in the buffer from 27 to 31 points on that day.
Forward tees and a calm sunny day and he might need to shoot 34-38 points.

When you are not sure of what handicap you might be, you should play a few (3) rounds and mark your stableford scores as a scratch player. The amount that the best of these cards differs from the SSS of the course is a decent indication. 1 card on it's own isn't enough to go on and also you may demonstrate a good run of holes within a card(s) that might indicate a lower handicap than the overall score would dictate and this would also be considered when giving out a handicap.

PGL

sector wrote: »

PGL, as usual an argument has erupted, lol.

Shoot me your scores for the 18 holes at Grange Castle and I'll assume the same for 2 more rounds and we'll work it out for ya, I'll explain how in my reply.

Cheers.

and there was me thinking nobody would be bothered to reply!

I'm a bit confused by all the lingo tbh

Katnia is spot on - if my handicap was 23 I would have scored 34 points. To score 36 points (which seems to be the yardstick for your handicap), my handicap would have needed to be 25 - and this makes sense as i had 97 strokes (97 - 72 = 25). So this would clearly suggest that based on that round, my handicap should be 25 - does everyone concur?

thanks sector for offering to do the calcs - my scores are attached

PGL

Licksy wrote: »

When you are not sure of what handicap you might be, you should play a few (3) rounds and mark your stableford scores as a scratch player. The amount that the best of these cards differs from the SSS of the course is a decent indication. 1 card on it's own isn't enough to go on and also you may demonstrate a good run of holes within a card(s) that might indicate a lower handicap than the overall score would dictate and this would also be considered when giving out a handicap.

cheers for that Licksy - I am aware that you need a minimum of 3 rounds before a handicap is calculated. I'm simply trying to get a handle on how stableford points and handicaps correlate

Sandwlch

Licksy wrote: »

Christ on a stick.

:D:D
Ahhhh...golf arcana.....

PhilipMarlowe

Usually 'bad' scores are adjusted down to a double bogey, then the SSS is subtracted from this adjusted gross score (without the disaster holes). The remainder is then "your handicap". Par isn't used because you are judged on the course you played and the SSS is supposed to be an indicator of how difficult that course is.
If your handicap is likely to be in the 21 to 28 handicap range you would be in Category 4 so your tolerance then is to shoot equal to the CSS or within 4 of that. So on a day where the CSS was calculated to be 36 points, a score of 32-36 would mean no change for your handicap.

Sandwlch

PGL wrote: »

my handicap should be 25 - does everyone concur?

Sorry, but no. If you had three cards that were similar then maybe, but certainly not on one alone.

Also note that you must reduce anyscores worse than a double bogey to a be a double bogey for this exercise. By how many strokes if any, over the 18 holes were you worse than double bogey ?

PGL

Sandwlch wrote: »

Sorry, but no. If you had three cards that were similar then maybe, but certainly not on one alone.

Sorry SandwIch, but you failed to quote everything I said (and as per my last post I know you need at least 3 rounds to calc the handicap), based on that round (i.e. hypothetically speaking) my handicap would be 25.

Sandwlch wrote: »

Also note that you must reduce anyscores worse than a double bogey to a be a double bogey for this exercise. By how many strokes if any, over the 18 holes were you worse than double bogey ?

As mentioned earlier, I am confused by some of the lingo, so I'm not sure what you are getting at by reducing some of the scores. However I have attached my scores on a spreadsheet on a previous post, so feel free to make the necessary adjustments yourself, which should then hopefully clarify things for me.

cheers!

G1032

Licksy wrote: »

Christ on a stick.
Playing to your handicap will return a score within the buffer zone, not necessarily the magic 36.

This has been said on this forum a number of times before. How long is it going to take for it to sink in? And how many times has a link to the CONGU website been posted here, where you will find anything you need to know about handicaps? No more than the rules book, people seem to have an allergy when it comes to reading the CONGU site too.

harpsman

katnia wrote: »

Wrong again i'm afraid, the other poster didn't talk about shooting 40 points, he spoke of consitantly shooting 32,33 points etc and then maybe shooting 36, at no stage did he mention playing better than the allocated handicap, so your answering a point that wasn't made. It's obvious that if you shoot better than your handicap then more than likely you would be cut at some stage, which of course is true, however the other poster reckons that to play to your handicap involves consistanly shooting scores above the handicap, which just does not stack up.

No youre wong my friend.he didnt say consistently shooting 32,33 and then 36.he said AVERAGING 32,33.
Why dont you go look up meaning of word average then you ll understand

Sandwlch

PGL wrote: »

Sorry SandwIch, but you failed to quote everything I said (and as per my last post I know you need at least 3 rounds to calc the handicap), based on that round (i.e. hypothetically speaking) my handicap would be 25.

Looked at your card. Adjusting the scores for handiap assessment (reducing all scores to a maximum of 2 over par) reduces your score from 97 to 92. Assuming a scratch of 71 agains par 72 (likely unless you played from the longest tees) would give you a theoretical handicap of 21. (based on this one card which is as stated before is too small a sample). If you returned two more cards which gave 21 when all averaged, a lenient handicap secretary might give you a handicap of 21. More likely, if you are a healthy male intending to play official golf regularly this would be reduced by a shot or two. I would give you 19. Some clubs tend not to give handicaps higher than 18 to anyone in touching distance of it on the basis that someone joining without a handicap is more likely to improve than disimprove. They prefer you to find your true level by drifing up a little rather than down by hoovering a few prizes simply because they gave you a higher handicap than you merited based on their limited information of you.

katnia

harpsman wrote: »

No youre wong my friend.he didnt say consistently shooting 32,33 and then 36.he said AVERAGING 32,33.
Why dont you go look up meaning of word average then you ll understand

Well if he said averaging 32,33 points, where does your 40 points come into this? I'm well aware of the meaning of average. If you play competitive golf every week for 52 weeks and average 32,33 points your handicap will go out - FACT

Your are wrong in this instance i'm afraid.

Whyner

No you're wrong, stickies, no backsies.....

katnia

katnia wrote: »

Well if he said averaging 32,33 points, where does your 40 points come into this? I'm well aware of the meaning of average. If you play competitive golf every week for 52 weeks and average 32,33 points your handicap will go out - FACT

Your are wrong in this instance i'm afraid.

I must qualify this point by saying that I am WRONGLY looking at this from my old category perspective being an ex cat 1 player,where if I averaged 32,33 points I believe me handicap would go out, but I accept that for higher category golfers this may not be the case. Apologies to all concerned, I accept your average argument....I was wrong.

harpsman

Whyner wrote: »

No you're wrong, stickies, no backsies.....

lol

harpsman

i figured myself that an average of about 34 would keep your hcap bout same-but im a high hcapper who doesnt play many comps.
one things for sure if you average 36 points your hcap will go down no matter what your hcap is

PGL

Sandwlch wrote: »

Looked at your card. Adjusting the scores for handiap assessment (reducing all scores to a maximum of 2 over par) reduces your score from 97 to 92. Assuming a scratch of 71 agains par 72 (likely unless you played from the longest tees) would give you a theoretical handicap of 21. (based on this one card which is as stated before is too small a sample). If you returned two more cards which gave 21 when all averaged, a lenient handicap secretary might give you a handicap of 21. More likely, if you are a healthy male intending to play official golf regularly this would be reduced by a shot or two. I would give you 19. Some clubs tend not to give handicaps higher than 18 to anyone in touching distance of it on the basis that someone joining without a handicap is more likely to improve than disimprove. They prefer you to find your true level by drifing up a little rather than down by hoovering a few prizes simply because they gave you a higher handicap than you merited based on their limited information of you.

cheers for that SandwIch - I catch your drift now!

BoardsMember

This thread makes great reading, you cant beat a lot of one-upmanship, partial quotes & pedantic preaching to people who already know stuff to draw attention away from the information the OP was looking for. It looks like the OP got what they were looking for.

So to add to the pedantics, and point out what people already know but have stated inaccurately....when reference is made to adjusting scores down to a double bogey where high scores were run up, this is not strictly accurate. If you have a 9 on a par 4 where you have two shots, i.e. index 1 hole and hcap > 18 (and various other scenarios where you have two shots on the hole), the adjustment would be to give you a 7, i.e. the lowest score that you can return for the hole that would give you no stableford points. Sorry, could not resist pointing out the bleedin' obvious!!

harpsman

how does that work if you dont have a handicap?????????

PhilipMarlowe

BoardsMember wrote: »

This thread makes great reading, you cant beat a lot of one-upmanship, partial quotes & pedantic preaching to people who already know stuff to draw attention away from the information the OP was looking for. It looks like the OP got what they were looking for.

So to add to the pedantics, and point out what people already know but have stated inaccurately....when reference is made to adjusting scores down to a double bogey where high scores were run up, this is not strictly accurate. If you have a 9 on a par 4 where you have two shots, i.e. index 1 hole and hcap > 18 (and various other scenarios where you have two shots on the hole), the adjustment would be to give you a 7, i.e. the lowest score that you can return for the hole that would give you no stableford points. Sorry, could not resist pointing out the bleedin' obvious!!

Reasonably epic fail there

Unglika Norse

BoardsMember wrote: »

This thread makes great reading, you cant beat a lot of one-upmanship, partial quotes & pedantic preaching to people who already know stuff to draw attention away from the information the OP was looking for. It looks like the OP got what they were looking for.

So to add to the pedantics, and point out what people already know but have stated inaccurately....when reference is made to adjusting scores down to a double bogey where high scores were run up, this is not strictly accurate. If you have a 9 on a par 4 where you have two shots, i.e. index 1 hole and hcap > 18 (and various other scenarios where you have two shots on the hole), the adjustment would be to give you a 7, i.e. the lowest score that you can return for the hole that would give you no stableford points. Sorry, could not resist pointing out the bleedin' obvious!!

epic, this is on the scale of Ben Hur

BoardsMember

Thanks guys! It was late when I wrote it and had been out. I'll get my coat....

In response to harpsman, what I was saying was with reference to adjusting an existing handicap, as was pretty obvious by referencing handicaps in the post.

harpsman

Dig up ..........
When adjusting existing handicap using stableford i think you just add up your points yes?
Maybe if competition is stroke play you would do that.
i just stick scores into machine and let it do it for me.

Panrich

Surely playing to 36 is not an equal task for the high handicapper as it is for the low handicapper so it cannot be as clear cut as that. I have been playing this year for the first time regularly as a member and I have not still reached a level that would merit going for a handicap. The simple reason for me and many other poor and inexperienced golfers is that there are too many disaster holes per round and a lack of consistency. As you improve and have a more repeatable swing the amount of disasters become less. If I played an event off a handicap mark, I would have on average 6 holes where I would be picking up. That leaves 12 where I have a chance to score or 3 points per scoring hole on average to make 36.

charlieIRL

3 year old thread??