Which railway line should CIE/IE close next?

Judgement Day

Given the precedent established by the No Trains Authority which has declared open season on what's left of the Irish railway network, where do you think the axe should fall next and why?

corktina

i think all existing lines should be retained and others re-opened where a case can genuinely be made for it....a bit of a pipe-dream isnt it!

Judgement Day

I didn't put retaining the network as an option - sorry - but knowing your feelings towards the WRC I thought that would suit you.

Cookie_Monster

Ennis/Athenry

I'm sure they could manage to come up with a case to close even the DART if they wanted

patrickbrophy18

Yes, the railway network in this country was once very extensive when it was privately run by different companies. Then, of course, IE moved in their and made a dogs breakfast of the network. It's a shame really. I am aware that towns as small as Schull in Cork even had a railway line. While I am aware of maintanence overheads, I do think the towns along these railway lines could have experienced large scale expansion in the times of The Celtic Tiger which in turn would have made their commuter routes viable. The mere thaught that our rail network has had a massive down-grade makes us, as a country the laughing stock of Europe. A lot of the time when people have visited our country from abroad, I have heard them complain about the transport system.....and understandably, who could blame them.

Despite the fact that our country is in a recession, we are still a relatively more well off than most nations and our transport system is still miles behind that of our neighbouring countries. It really is quite pathetic that our capital, Dublin is one of the oldest cities in the world and yet cities which are a fraction as old as ours have a transport system FAR SUPERIOR. I amn't saying that Irish Rail, Irish Bus or Dublin Bus are entirely to blame as public sentiment has been something of an obstacle to progress. At a time of recession, we as a nation should pool together and embrace change, regardless of how ambitious it is. I would like to see Dublin and indeed the rest of the country becoming world wide icons like London and England are at present.

lord lucan

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

Objective hat on and if it was a case of they HAD to close one more line i'd go with Limerick/Ballybrophy. The service on it is abysmal as it is,i personally don't see the need for it.

That being said,i don't know the area that well and i'd be interested to hear from anyone that lives down that way what they think. It's all very well playing the fat controller from my laptop and saying i'd cut this and cut that but in reality our rail network has dwindled to such a degree that if we were to go with pure economics we'd probably be left with a couple of major intercity lines and an urban/suburban system in Dublin.

mikemac

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

Limerick Ballybrophy

Has an excellent bus service being on the N7

Ah I remember for years and years the trains leaving Nenagh around 11am and returning from Limerick around 3pm
Perfect for a bit of shopping or lunch in Limerick but useless for commuting.
Now that was a timetable designed for staff and not passengers.
It was almost as if they designed a timetable to give the driver a 9-5 working day

Times have changed and a better timetable is in place.
But the bus is just as fast, more comfortable and cheaper.
There is Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanghs.

Of course you can use this line to go to Dublin also.
But from Nenagh, largest town on the line it's €40 return on the train and €18 on Bus Eireann which is about 45 minutes longer.

Here's one local who won't use the train service

Transportuser09

I would guess the second option is very likely and probably the first. The rest are safe though, I would say.

Cool Mo D

Well, I would be in favour of retaining the lot, running a 2-hourly service minimum on all lines, and running direct Galway - Cork and Limerick - Waterford services, but if one line was to be closed, it would have to be Limerick - Ballybrophy. It's really just a feeder route for a few medium size towns at the moment.
If a decent direct Limerick - Dublin service could run along the track (i.e, 2 hour end to end journeys - it's only 190km), it would do a lot for the line.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

I didn't put retaining the network as an option - sorry - but knowing your feelings towards the WRC I thought that would suit you.

:Dwell no, now its built Id vote for improving it....that it shouldn't have been built is a whole different story.

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

I'd ideally like to see the Nenagh line brought back to 70mph with a direct curve to Portlaoise (and its depot) but that ain't happening.

foggy_lad

will it be the belfast line now that the bus is almost faster?

mk6705

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

Why did you include Mallow/Tralee but not Athlone/Westport or Manulla Junction/Ballina or Maynooth/Sligo? Just seems a bit limited.

Godge

To be fair, I would possibly keep Mallow/Tralee and Portarlington/Galway ahead of the Mayo connections. The only thing saving the Mayo lines is that there will never be a decent road from Dublin.

purplepanda

Just close down the whole IE system, problem solved, get some real railway companies with proven experience in promoting & expanding rail travel in their place

IE is a waste of time & money, not a modern 21st century railway company, no other modern nation would put up with such crap so why should Ireland?????:mad:

Lifelike

Closing Limerick-Ballybrophy would probably also mean shutting Ballybrophy station, which is just after getting a major refurb :mad:

foggy_lad wrote: »

will it be the belfast line now that the bus is almost faster?

That's effectively saying that the train is faster.

Jayeire

Why not just close them down now, seems the way IE is going anyway.

westtip

Mallow/Tralee

I wouldn't close the lines down I would close the operator down and put the whole operation out to tender with a reasonable level of subvention based on performance - ie not a blank cheque as provided to IE at the moment to provide agreed Service levels and a subvention per passenger carried - to make the service provider work to get people on the train and provide a service that people will use.

A term and condition of the new private operator would be a new management team, and with complete replacement of operational staff on a non unionised basis.

All IE staff would be entitled to apply for jobs in the new companies but on private sector terms and conditions. All IE staff would be made redundant with statutory miniumum redundancy. Pension rights would be actuarised and each employee would receive an actuarised lump sum in a private pension scheme -to remove all future burden of paying IE pensions on an on-going basis.

Track maintenance would be given over to a private operator on strict Service level agreements, the track alignments of existing and closed down lines would in public hands and all of them - even the closed down lines would be secured against encroachment. A non union condition would be placed on the operating company.

In terms of investment in new lines, there would be no further lines re-opened (outside Dublin) - totally unnecessry burden on the system.

10 year objective to have made the mainlines into Dublin doable in 1 hour 30 minutes, with express services that stop no more than 2 times on route at strategic express service stops, providing this kind of service is the only way to make the mainlines competitive with buses on the new interurbans, stopping at every village on the way screws the service. A guarentee would be a mainline service out of Dublin to Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Belfast every night at around 11.00 pm as an express service stopping no more than twice at the strategic express stations.

eg Dublin - Tullamore - Athlone - Galway, and a Dublin, Mullingar, Longford, Sligo. other suggestions for the other lines from others please - I haven't used the other lines for a long time.

The perfect CEO for the new operating company - Michael O'leary.

JD surprised Ballina - Claremorris is not on the list - I reckon it must be on the IE hit list.

Partizan

Mallow/Tralee

JD you are some bastard

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

Lifelike wrote: »

Closing Limerick-Ballybrophy would probably also mean shutting Ballybrophy station, which is just after getting a major refurb :mad:

There was CWR laid on Rosslare-Waterford not so long ago. There's CWR laid on the Nenagh branch in fact. That's not the issue.

What I think is far more important than closing lines is that that IE retains some connection to the former route - i.e. if a service purporting to replace a train service does not call at the previous terminus, as Rosslare-Waterford will not call at Plunkett, then it's not a replacement but a takeover by a competitor who has just enhanced his own network on the south Quay.

The other problem is that IE are stuck with mothballed routes, so even closed they are a drain on resources, especially if properly maintained per the NTA's decision. Instead, closed lines should be transferred to another entity so the cost is wholly off the backs of passengers and there is direct accountability for failure to maintain.

purplepanda

westtip wrote: »

I wouldn't close the lines down I would close the operator down and put the whole operation out to tender with a reasonable level of subvention based on performance - ie not a blank cheque as provided to IE at the moment to provide agreed Service levels and a subvention per passenger carried - to make the service provider work to get people on the train and provide a service that people will use.

A term and condition of the new private operator would be a new management team, and with complete replacement of operational staff on a non unionised basis.

All IE staff would be entitled to apply for jobs in the new companies but on private sector terms and conditions. All IE staff would be made redundant with statutory miniumum redundancy. Pension rights would be actuarised and each employee would receive an actuarised lump sum in a private pension scheme -to remove all future burden of paying IE pensions on an on-going basis.

Track maintenance would be given over to a private operator on strict Service level agreements, the track alignments of existing and closed down lines would in public hands and all of them - even the closed down lines would be secured against encroachment. A non union condition would be placed on the operating company.

In terms of investment in new lines, there would be no further lines re-opened (outside Dublin) - totally unnecessry burden on the system.

10 year objective to have made the mainlines into Dublin doable in 1 hour 30 minutes, with express services that stop no more than 2 times on route at strategic express service stops, providing this kind of service is the only way to make the mainlines competitive with buses on the new interurbans, stopping at every village on the way screws the service. A guarentee would be a mainline service out of Dublin to Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Belfast every night at around 11.00 pm as an express service stopping no more than twice at the strategic express stations.

eg Dublin - Tullamore - Athlone - Galway, and a Dublin, Mullingar, Longford, Sligo. other suggestions for the other lines from others please - I haven't used the other lines for a long time.

The perfect CEO for the new operating company - Michael O'leary.

JD surprised Ballina - Claremorris is not on the list - I reckon it must be on the IE hit list.

Agree with most of the above apart from stopping people joining trade unions, a successful company needs co-operation & between workers & management, as for O'Leary & his ilk they'd probably just employ workers from Eastern Europe, in the current dire jobs situation in Ireland that would be unjustified IMO!!!

Cookie_Monster

Ennis/Athenry

RyanRail just doesn't have the same ring to it.

markpb

purplepanda wrote: »

Agree with most of the above apart from stopping people joining trade unions, a successful company needs co-operation & between workers & management, as for O'Leary & his ilk they'd probably just employ workers from Eastern Europe, in the current dire jobs situation in Ireland that would be unjustified IMO!!!

There are plenty of successful companies (and indeed, entire industries) where there are no unions. The employees aren't crushed or treated badly and for the most, they're not replaced by eastern Europeans (not that I care who drives my train). It's possible for there to be co-operation between company and employees without a union.

If I had to, I'd settle for a Luas-style agreement where there is a union (closed shop union too, oddly enough) but they have a no strike clause.

invinciblePRSTV

I'd like to keep Mallow/Tralee open as i use it when i go on my summer holidays to Kerry, close the rest.

thomasj

purplepanda wrote: »

Agree with most of the above apart from stopping people joining trade unions, a successful company needs co-operation & between workers & management, as for O'Leary & his ilk they'd probably just employ workers from Eastern Europe, in the current dire jobs situation in Ireland that would be unjustified IMO!!!

And of all people, you can guarantee that if there is no signs of demand for these services they would be axed in no time.

kildarecommuter

markpb wrote: »

There are plenty of successful companies (and indeed, entire industries) where there are no unions. The employees aren't crushed or treated badly and for the most, they're not replaced by eastern Europeans (not that I care who drives my train). It's possible for there to be co-operation between company and employees without a union.

If I had to, I'd settle for a Luas-style agreement where there is a union (closed shop union too, oddly enough) but they have a no strike clause.

As there are plenty of successful companies that are unionised! Management and political interest/policy are the problems with the railways.

rainbowdash

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

dowlingm wrote: »

There was CWR laid on Rosslare-Waterford not so long ago. There's CWR laid on the Nenagh branch in fact. That's not the issue.

What I think is far more important than closing lines is that that IE retains some connection to the former route - i.e. if a service purporting to replace a train service does not call at the previous terminus, as Rosslare-Waterford will not call at Plunkett, then it's not a replacement but a takeover by a competitor who has just enhanced his own network on the south Quay.

The other problem is that IE are stuck with mothballed routes, so even closed they are a drain on resources, especially if properly maintained per the NTA's decision. Instead, closed lines should be transferred to another entity so the cost is wholly off the backs of passengers and there is direct accountability for failure to maintain.

Which mothballed routes are a drain on resources? Apart from the proposal for Rosslare-Waterford no other mothballed route is passable and gets any attention AFAIK.

Only Ennis-Athenry was kept in any sort of order in recent years - and obviously thats not mothballed anymore.

wildefalcon

Close down the lot, tar over the lines.

hey presto! New road network!

AngryLips

Why doesn't IE route Limerick-Dublin services through Nenagh? It would only need some work at Ballybrophy junction so that the track feeds into the Cork-Dublin mainline in the right direction... Or am I missing something?

highlydebased

AngryLips wrote: »

Why doesn't IE route Limerick-Dublin services through Nenagh? It would only need some work at Ballybrophy junction so that the track feeds into the Cork-Dublin mainline in the right direction... Or am I missing something?

The linespeed is very low in places, hence the journey would take 3hrs plus I'd imagine

Judgement Day

AngryLips wrote: »

Why doesn't IE route Limerick-Dublin services through Nenagh? It would only need some work at Ballybrophy junction so that the track feeds into the Cork-Dublin mainline in the right direction... Or am I missing something?

It would mean lengthening of the journey times as the line via Nenagh is single track. Of course if it were to be properly upgraded and, as you say, a facing connection put in at Ballybrophy that would be an entirely different matter. However, given that CIE/IE have been trying to close the Limerick/Ballybrophy line for nearly as long as the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line don't hold your breath!

AngryLips

I always thought, in relation to the Nenagh line and the line from Dublin to Athlone via Moate, that it's dissapointing IE don't try to stimulate travel and extend the catchment area of rail by running mainline services on these lines.

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

I always thought, in relation to the Nenagh line and the line from Dublin to Athlone via Moate, that it's dissapointing IE don't try to stimulate travel and extend the catchment area of rail by running mainline services on these lines.

You got a couple of hundred million in your pocket to bring Mullingar-Athlone up to scratch, recommission Athlone West and automate/rehabilitate Limerick-Ballybrophy? I'd rather them get on with Navan than any of those.

foggy_lad

If Irish rail shut off the Balina line they could do away with almost all the freight they handle and concentrate on commuters!

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

foggy_lad wrote: »

If Irish rail shut off the Balina line they could do away with almost all the freight they handle and concentrate on commuters!

Given that they don't seem to have any takers for the 201s they should probably hang onto the freight business awhile.

Transportuser09

foggy_lad wrote: »

If Irish rail shut off the Balina line they could do away with almost all the freight they handle and concentrate on commuters!

They'd also be doing away with the passenger traffic on the Ballina branch. To an extent most of IÉ's market already is commuters, it's not like freight is hindering that in any way. No harm in still having a bit of freight if it can be run at a profit, from both an economical and envioronmental point of view.

Layzehfoo

Kinda annoyed there isn't a "none" or "expand the lines" option. I'm not for expansion, but i'd vote no closures. Doesn't fit with your worldview though, does it?

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

Layzehfoo wrote: »

Kinda annoyed there isn't a "none" or "expand the lines" option. I'm not for expansion, but i'd vote no closures. Doesn't fit with your worldview though, does it?

Where's the money to expand?

Layzehfoo

I'm not on about what's possible, i'm on about the options in the poll, which is asking opinion. There's the unlikely option of the entire network being closed, why not an equally unlikely option of expansion, along with no more closures?

corktina

dowlingm wrote: »

Where's the money to expand?

wheres the payload too....

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

To be fair, there should be a minimum amount of "expansion" work undertaken, in order to retain a core engineering competence. Portarlington-Galway capacity upgrades, Maynooth-Mullingar capacity upgrades, Limerick-Ennis resignal/passing track and so on. The only reinstatement of service before 2020 should be Pace-Navan I think.

What kind of expansion were you thinking of layzehfoo?

dowlingm

Greystones/Rosslare Euroshack

The Nenagh Guardian reports (via IRN here) that speed limits are to be raised on Killonan-Nenagh with the imminent end to track relaying in the area.