Child Benefits - review again

happydayz8

Hi All, I'm just wondering what people think. I am foreign but PAYE and have yesterday received a letter for the 4th time in 1 year from Social Welfare reviewing claims to my entitlement of child benefits. My circumstances have not changed and I'm getting a little upset that I constantly have to justify myself to them. My friend, who is Irish, has not been reviewed in several years. Of course, it is only a small matter returning the form with all the information, but I do feel unfairly treated if I get questioned so much more frequent. Does any one have an idea why this is happening and do you think I should question Social Welfare in them reviewing some people more frequent then others?

Thanks in advance.

Zeouterlimits

I have no idea why, but yes, I'd ask why you're being hounded like that.

Nevyn

I am irish so are my kids and I got one of those in the post about 2 months ago, just fill in it and send it off.

They are sending them out more often to parents who get this but are not irish and who have not applied for residency due to some parents leaving the country or the child having left the country who still claim child benefit and never let the dept of welfare know the change in circumstance.

jessiejam

I got one last week. I'm also Irish and my kids are Irish. Have never gotten one before.

Just fill it out and send it back. Unfortunately there are those who are abusing the system by not living in the country and still claiming benifits they are no longer entitled to. The fact you are not Irish may come into it. Since employment has dried up many are returning home, and are screwing the system. DSW are just monitoring the situation.

They are trying to cut back on welfare fraud and unfortuantely everyone is being examined.

mikemac

You have a higher risk profile then an Irish person who spent all their life here. But that's common sense realy, don't be offended over it, they are fraudsters from all sections of society

Look, don't take it personally.
The system should be checking everyone and you and people like you have been flagged due to well publicized abuse by people not living here and claiming benefit they have no entitlement to.

If you are claiming the benefit then you play by their rules,

Just return the form and give them what they want.
Realy, this sort of checking is good to see

Galwaymother

I have to say that at this stage I'm fed up with this caper! I've been living and working here 20 years +, my husband and children are Irish, schooled here, etc. I'm obviously not going to up in the morning!!! Yet, I receive these forms several times a year, always one during the summer when I AM away looking after my disabled Dad. And again this time I was late returning the form because of being on that "holiday". So it will probably be stopped AGAIN and take a few months to kick back. My children are Irish, they are as entitled as any Irish children to this benefit without all the hassle. I understand checks etc, but go and check on builders, bankers, politicians, self-employed people, many of whom we all know do not pay taxes fully etc. also please!

LostinKildare

I am also annoyed by this.

They are sent every three months to non-citizen residents. From the SW website:

Anti-fraud checks
EU/EEA citizens and Swiss national covered by EU Regulations are required to certify every 3 months that they continue to work in this State.
Non-EU/EEA citizens are also required to certify every 3 months that they and their children continue to live in this State.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/BirthChildrenAndFamilies/ChildRelatedPayments/Pages/cb.aspx

Don't bother ringing the Child Benefits office, it will only make you angry. I rang them because I am still getting them every 3 months although I became an Irish citizen 5 years ago. I was a non-EU citizen, married to an Irish citizen, when I first moved here and applied for child benefit, and apparently I will always be a non-citizen in their eyes, because they do not seem to be able to update their database.

Maddening experience talking to them. The staff who answer the phones seem to be completely ignorant of policy. The first woman I talked to denied that non-Irish are sent this anti-fraud form any more frequently than Irish citizens are. She insisted that it's totally random who receives the form --- and that it was coincidence that I get them every 3 months and none of my Irish friends has ever gotten one. I pointed out to her that the same form obviously isn't sent to Irish citizens --- there isn't even an option for "Irish Citizen" where it asks you to indicate your residency status (previously, I had been advised by their office to write in "Irish Citizen", and I hoped that would stop them coming at me like clockwork every 3 months, but no!). She nastily told me, "well, we're not going to stop sending them just because you don't like it" and when I asked to speak to a supervisor, hung up on me! When I called back, woman no. 2 was of the "Computer Says No" variety, but she did put me through to a very nice supervisor who verified that yes, non-citizens are singled out to receive this form every 3 months (citizens do receive a different form, randomly). Thank you sir, I am not crazy! Tell your staff, please.

Anyway, he agreed I shouldn't be getting them, and asked me to mail him a copy of my citizenship document and passport. Which I did. And it hasn't made a whit of difference.

If you were a non-citizen when you first applied, you will be harassed by this until your youngest child turns 18. Don't waste your time arguing.:(

ash23

I'm Irish and my daughter is Irish. I got two of these so far this year.

I don't see what the problem is.
It takes all of 2 minutes to fill in and then throw into the nearest post box.

Jesus, people are always giving out about lack of funding for schools and hospitals and welfare fraud but then complain when something is done to clamp down on it.

Fill it in and send it back and just accept that it's like signing on or renewing benefits. I have to renew my FIS every year, my medical card etc....why not my child benefit?

Or stop claiming it and there won't be any forms.

kayos

Its so annoying having to sign a cheque or remember my pin number so I can get money out of the bank..... :rolleyes:

People these checks are long over due and badly needed. If you are all above board I dont see why it would annoy you. Heck if you get them every 3 months you must have the form down to a fine art.....does say 20minutes of form filling in a full year seem a fair exchange for how much money?

Social welfare has been a traget for some serious fraud and they are cracking down on it. The more fraud they catch the more money the state has which might help in not having your benifits cut to hell in the budgets.

kmick

Just fill out the form. Its a formality. These forms are triggered by a computer program overnight. Dont get paranoid.

LostinKildare

I don't object to their doing the anti-fraud checks, I object to how they administer the policy.

Both Irish and EU law forbid the government from discriminating on the basis of nationality. The Equal Status Acts define discrimination as the treatment of a person in a less favourable way than another person is (has been, would be) treated on any of nine specified grounds (incl nationality).

Person A is treated less favourably than Person B if they are placed into a category of people to be targeted for anti-fraud investigation automatically every three months, when Person B is placed into a category of people that may or may not be investigated, ever. Because that less favourable treatment is based solely on Person A's nationality, it is illegal discrimination.

By all means, check for benefits fraud, but do so fairly. Send the forms out to all recipients randomly, or every year, or every 3 months. Actually, the CB office has been saying for a couple of years that "very soon" this 3-month thing is going to be rolled out to apply to Irish-born citizens too, but mysteriously this doesn't happen, and Hanafin when she was heading SW dodged questions about that. Seems to me that "rollout plan" is just BS they're spouting because they know very well that what they're doing is discriminatory.

I don't believe they'll require all Irish-born mothers to certify by post every 3 months, year after year, that their children are entitled receive child benefit because there would be an uproar. To those Irish posters who have received a form once or twice, I'd wager that you didn't have CB cut off because your returned form was "lost," or because there was a 3-week backlog of post at their end and they hadn't gotten around to opening it. This happens. Did you get your form on the 15th day of the month, though it was dated the 1st, and have just a couple of days to return it? This happens quite a lot. Were you on holidays those couple of days, so CB got cut off AGAIN? Did you have to get your employer's HR dept to stamp the form once AGAIN proving that you still work there (for EU citizens)? Or ask your (Irish) husband to have his employer sign it AGAIN?

It is nothing like signing a cheque or remembering your pin number. It is a flipping nuisance, and the more often you have to fill out that form and return it, the more likely it is that the govt dept will screw it up somehow.

And it makes you feel like you're constantly under suspicion. Now, tell me how the general public would accept that. Nah, singling out foreigners to be treated as likely criminals suits the govt fine in times like this.

ash23

Eh no, its actually because of a recent change in the law. Up until recently an non EU citizen working here could claim child benefit for a child not residing in this country. And an EU resident who is elegible for benefits in their country should be claiming there and getting the balance from the Irish government.

If you are an EU/EEA citizen or a Swiss national and work in a country covered by EU Regulations, the country you work in usually pays Child Benefit even if your family is living in another country. However, if your children are living in another EU/EEA country you should still apply for any Family Benefits you are entitled to there.

If the Family Benefit you get in the country your children are living is less than the Child Benefit payment here, your Irish Child Benefit payment will make up the difference.

Now that has changed and the child must be resident in this country for a non EU national.

It's basically more complex for an EU resident who is eligible in another country and for a non EU resident, therefore they are asked to confirm their details and their eligibility.

Irish people are being sent these forms too. It's not just EU/non EU nationals who are. And asking them to verify their child is in the country is hardly treating them like criminals!!!

A friend of mine is an EU national and has never gotten a CB form and her child is the same age as mine.
It seems it's fairly random and once you're on the "list" you get the forms regularly. Like I said, I'd gotten none in 7 years and got 2 in 6 months. I expect I'll get them on a fairly regular basis from here on in.

EU/EEA citizens and Swiss national covered by EU Regulations are required to certify every 3 months that they continue to work in this State.

Non-EU/EEA citizens are also required to certify every 3 months that they and their children continue to live in this State.

I'm assuming that the EU/EEA citizens include Irish citizens? Seeing as more and more Irish people are getting these forms to fill in on a more regular basis?
I's expect that everyone getting CB will be filling in these forms a few times a year regardless. Seems it's just being rolled out at the moment which is why some are and some aren't.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

Irish people are being sent these forms too. It's not just EU/non EU nationals who are. . . . A friend of mine is an EU national and has never gotten a CB form and her child is the same age as mine.

Yes. But Irish may or may not get them, randomly. Non-Irish get them every 3 months automatically. That is the policy. If your EU national friend hasn't gotten them, she has slipped through the cracks.

ash23 wrote: »

And asking them to verify their child is in the country is hardly treating them like criminals!!!

I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like you're being treated like a criminal when you have to answer questions every 3 months in a govt fraud investigation, when you've done nothing to draw suspicion (except be born in another country). But I'm funny that way.

ash23 wrote: »

I'm assuming that the EU/EEA citizens include Irish citizens?

No, that refers to non-Irish EU/EEA citizens, unless the supervisor at CB was lying to me.

ash23 wrote: »

I's expect that everyone getting CB will be filling in these forms a few times a year regardless. Seems it's just being rolled out at the moment which is why some are and some aren't

Right, well if Irish and non-Irish are all treated the same (getting the forms randomly, or at the same intervals), I still won't enjoy it, but I'll be satisfied that it's fair. But that's not the official govt policy now, and I don't think that's going to happen absent a legal challenge.

jessiejam

I really don't get what all the fuss is about
Its a poxy form that takes all of 10 seconds to complete.
It even comes with a pre-paid envelope to return it

Whats the big deal
Isn't it worth it 4 times a year considering the hefty CB we recieve monthly?

Don't know of any other country that pays out €150 per child for nothing
Its simple
Fill out the form - get money every month
Don't fill out the form - get no money every month

Your choice

I think we should stop moaning about it and say that Its about time they clamped down on it. For both Irish and non-nationals. It might save the pensioners or disabled getting reductions in the next budget.

ash23

LostinKildare wrote: »

Yes. But Irish may or may not get them, randomly. Non-Irish get them every 3 months automatically. That is the policy. If your EU national friend hasn't gotten them, she has slipped through the cracks.

I don't know, but perhaps it's just a roll out system. They started with EU and are now sending them to Irish. I'm sure it's also a numbers game. There would be more Irish nationals claiming CB so perhaps the Irish nationals are being spot checked as opposed to being routinely sent the forms.

I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like you're being treated like a criminal when you have to answer questions every 3 months in a govt fraud investigation, when you've done nothing to draw suspicion (except be born in another country). But I'm funny that way.

You are. Because I've been asked to fill in one every few months this year and I didn't see anything mentioning it being a fraud check. Perhaps veiw it as a form to determine eligibility and it might not seem like such a big deal.

I've had a number of forms to fill in this year, about various elegibility for various things and I haven't taken it as a slur on my charachter or and accusation just because I'm a single parent/low earner etc etc.

You want the money, you complete the forms. I don't know why they need BOTH my pay slips and my P60 for FIS but I just send them on.

No, that refers to non-Irish EU/EEA citizens, unless the supervisor at CB was lying to me.

So why are Irish peope getting them then? Irish nationals are being asked to verify their eligibility too.

Right, well if Irish and non-Irish are all treated the same (getting the forms randomly, or at the same intervals), I still won't enjoy it, but I'll be satisfied that it's fair. But that's not the official govt policy now, and I don't think that's going to happen absent a legal challenge.

Again, I'd say it's more a numbers thing. Plus there is different eligibility between an Irish national and EU/EEA nationals etc so the criteria for applying and reapplying etc will be different. I doubt a legal challenge would be successful. There are different procedures for Unemployment benefit and One parent family allowance for eg. Same payment but one group has to prove they are available for work by signing on , the other doesn't.

Same in this case imo.

Galwaymother

As LostinKildare and I have tried to explain, it is not always just a case of filling and sending these forms back on time. Sometimes the "filling-in" time is very short, so that you are a few days late sending back the form, or sometimes you are on holidays, and the form gives you about a week, when you are not there to sign it. And as already pointed out, sometimes it's their own fault, because they have mislaid the form etc.

I also find it hard to believe that fraud in this matter is so widespread. Don't people have to collect this money at the post office? Do they then go back and over every month from abroad to defraud the State?

When I was on Jobseeker's Benefit, I didn't mind having to go to the post office every week on the same day to collect money, and not getting any income when I went to my home country for two months to look after my father. Because it was the same rule as every other Jobseeker's Benefit recipient and I was not singled out.

I feel singled out in this case. Not a big problem or trauma, but a nuisance nonetheless.

BTW, if you are so annoyed by welfare fraud, do you know if they actually check on single parents every three months to see if they are still single? I don't think so. They are many other possible "welfare frauds" which are not checked out to the same extent, methinks...

Not that I'm disturbed about it, as I said before, I'm more bothered by the 'big fish' fraud!

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

There would be more Irish nationals claiming CB so perhaps the Irish nationals are being spot checked as opposed to being routinely sent the forms.

Right. My point precisely. Irish nationals are treated differently. That is discriminatory.

ash23 wrote: »

You are. Because I've been asked to fill in one every few months this year and I didn't see anything mentioning it being a fraud check. Perhaps veiw it as a form to determine eligibility and it might not seem like such a big deal.

Ash, the details of the policy are listed on the SW website (see link above) as an "Anti-fraud checks" program. It has been described as such in govt docs and the media. They are "determining eligibility" to combat fraudulent claims. Not in itself a bad thing, IMO, but it must be administered fairly and in a legal manner.

ash23 wrote: »

I've had a number of forms to fill in this year, about various elegibility for various things and I haven't taken it as a slur on my charachter or and accusation just because I'm a single parent/low earner etc etc.

I assume they require that information from all single parents/low earners, right? Or on some other equal basis (e.g., spot check)?

Or do they single out a specific group of single parents/low earners based on their race or sexual preference or gender and make them fill out those forms over and over every 3 months, while all other single parents/low earners are randomly chosen to fill out the form? Would you think it was right and fair if, say, black people had to fill out that form every 3 months but white people were only randomly chosen to fill out the form? Can you not see how those black people would be offended by that unequal treatment? Now, just substitute "non-Irish-born" for "black" and "Irish-born" for "white". (The law forbids unequal treatment based on nationality as well as race, so it's a fair analogy).

ash23 wrote: »

I doubt a legal challenge would be successful. There are different procedures for Unemployment benefit and One parent family allowance for eg. Same payment but one group has to prove they are available for work by signing on , the other doesn't.

Having different procedures for different programs --unemployment benefits vs. one-parent allowance --- does not run afoul of antidiscrimination laws. What is discriminatory is if you have different procedures to deal with different groups of claimants for the same program, which were based on their immutable differences. For example, if there were different rules for unemployment claimants based on whether they were a man vs. a woman, or gay vs. straight.

banie01

LostinKildare wrote: »

Right. My point precisely. Irish nationals are treated differently. That is discriminatory.

I'm an Irish National and I have had to fill out this form 3 times in the last 15months.
While it may be an annoyance(Esp. When the form asks your Nationality) It is far from discriminatory

Nevyn

Most people do not go to the post office they get the payment directly to thier account and yes I know of peopel claiming for children which were at home in poland and kept doing so when he went home.

LostinKildare

banie01 wrote: »

I'm an Irish National and I have had to fill out this form 3 times in the last 15months.
While it may be an annoyance(Esp. When the form asks your Nationality) It is far from discriminatory

And if you were a non-national you'd have gotten it 5 times in 15 months, per policy.

Sounds like you've just been extraordinarily unlucky in a random spot check of Irish nationals. But that's no argument that the two groups are being treated equally.

metrovelvet

I don't get how its anti fraud. Irish born citizens can live in another country just as easily as a non national can. It wouldnt make much practical sense to discriminate this way.

The thing is that once very three months is a lot. Maybe call them and ask them why they keep losing the forms you send back.

kayos

Galwaymother wrote: »

I also find it hard to believe that fraud in this matter is so widespread. Don't people have to collect this money at the post office? Do they then go back and over every month from abroad to defraud the State?

Thats exactly the sort of thing that has been happening!

ash23

I still don't see how it's discrimination. EU/EEA and non EU citizens have to meet different criteria. Yes, it's the same payment as Irish citizens but an Irish citizen is eligible simply because they are Irish. Others need to be eligible and ergo, prove their eligibility.

It's no different than a working visa for example. As an Irish citizen I get a PPS number when I turn 16. I am eligible to work here, simply because I am Irish.
Others need to prove they are eligible.

In Australia or America, you have to jump through hoops just to get into the country. You can be interrogated at customs simply because of your nationality. Is that illegal? No.

I don't see how having people confirm their eligibility to claim CB on a regular basis is different? The criteria they have to meet is different.

LostinKildare

kayos wrote: »

Thats exactly the sort of thing that has been happening!

Sure, it might happen now and again (probably less likely now that airfares are up), and then it's sensationalised in the press to feed anti-immigrant feeling. I doubt it happens often. If you think it's widespread, I'd be interested in seeing some evidence.

And as metrovelvet points out

metrovelvet wrote: »

Irish born citizens can live in another country just as easily as a non national can.

Hand on heart, do you believe that the Irish people who leave the country in the long- or short-term are all ringing up CB to ask them to please stop depositing money into their bank accounts every month? Sure some of them may intend to, but once they hear they'll be waiting on hold 30 min they probably say feck it.:)

Haven't seen a story in the Indo about those people, though. Wonder how much they cost the taxpayers.

Galwaymother

"I still don't see how it's discrimination. EU/EEA and non EU citizens have to meet different criteria"
Well I thought EU and Irish citizens had the same rights for work and benefits within the EU. Maybe I'm mistaken, but what's the point of being in the Europe Union then? Just to get European funds?


"As an Irish citizen I get a PPS number when I turn 16". My children are Irish citizens. It's called "Child Benefit", here to benefit them, Irish citizens...It shouldn't matter if their mother is from Outer Space.

What about the father, also? Why can't he collect the benefit? Not all fathers are feckless alcoholics who'll go and spend their children's money on pints! The mother could be as unreliable. Another weird rule. How do they justify it without involving discriminatory arguments?

BTW my children had a PPS number from birth or thereabouts. Is that not the usual case?

ash23

Galwaymother wrote: »

"I still don't see how it's discrimination. EU/EEA and non EU citizens have to meet different criteria"
Well I thought EU and Irish citizens had the same rights for work and benefits within the EU. Maybe I'm mistaken, but what's the point of being in the Europe Union then? Just to get European funds?

Not the case with claiming benefits though. I can't claim CB if I move abroad.
The point of being in the EU is economic freedom but at the same time, each country has its own welfare system, tax system etc. If I went abroad I would have to prove my eligibility to work and to claim state benefits. With regard to EU citizens they can claim CB in their own countries and be topped up by the Irish goverment. Check out http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/social-welfare-payments-to-families-and-children/child_benefit

Child Benefit and EU Regulations
EU/EEA citizens and Swiss nationals working in Ireland, satisfy the habitual residence condition for Child Benefit.

If you are an EU/EEA citizen or a Swiss national and work in a country covered by EU Regulations, the country you work in usually pays Child Benefit even if your family is living in another country. However, if your children are living in another EU/EEA country you should still apply for any Family Benefits you are entitled to there.

If the Family Benefit you get in the country your children are living is less than the Child Benefit payment here, your Irish Child Benefit payment will make up the difference. For more information on how EU rules affect Child Benefit, contact the Child Benefit Section - see 'Where to apply' below.

Countries covered by EU Regulations are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom (excluding the Channel Islands).

Non-EU/EEA citizens
Non-EU/EEA citizens must be habitually resident in Ireland to quality for Child Benefit. If you are a non-EU/EEA citizen and legally working in this State, you may qualify for Child Benefit if your child is also resident here. More information is available in our document on habitual residence.

"As an Irish citizen I get a PPS number when I turn 16". My children are Irish citizens. It's called "Child Benefit", here to benefit them, Irish citizens...It shouldn't matter if their mother is from Outer Space.

Wtf? Your CHILDREN are Irish citizens. The payment is made to you. When they grown up and have children of their own, they will be in the same position as every other Irish citizen. THEY do not get the payment. YOU do.

As the person who gets the payment, all that matters is your details.
I'd imagine that is standard the world over. When I claim anything for my daughter, all I have to prove is her existance (PPS number) and that she resides with me. Everything else is based on my earnings, my details etc.

What about the father, also? Why can't he collect the benefit? Not all fathers are feckless alcoholics who'll go and spend their children's money on pints! The mother could be as unreliable. Another weird rule. How do they justify it without involving discriminatory arguments?

When you register the childs birth, put the fathers name and bank details down. It's generally the mothers details used but afaik, nothing to stop the mother letting the father sign and give his bank details so he gets it instead.

BTW my children had a PPS number from birth or thereabouts. Is that not the usual case?

Yes, my daughter has hers. I meant in terms of employment. When i turned 16 I was issued my PPS card in order to begin paying PRSI etc.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

I still don't see how it's discrimination. EU/EEA and non EU citizens have to meet different criteria. Yes, it's the same payment as Irish citizens but an Irish citizen is eligible simply because they are Irish. Others need to be eligible and ergo, prove their eligibility.

It's no different than a working visa for example. As an Irish citizen I get a PPS number when I turn 16. I am eligible to work here, simply because I am Irish. Others need to prove they are eligible.

No, you are not eligible simply because you are Irish. You had to prove your eligibility. Just as non-nationals have to prove their eligibility. Yes, a non-national may (or may not) have had to provide different and/or more information than you did to establish that eligibility, but no one is giving you money just because you rang them up and said, "hey I'm Irish". Both nationals and non-nationals fill out the same form which requires them to provide evidence of their eligiblity for CB, and both are no longer entitled to CB if they leave the country (with certain exceptions).

ash23 wrote: »

In Australia or America, you have to jump through hoops just to get into the country. You can be interrogated at customs simply because of your nationality. Is that illegal? No.

That's not a great example because you are talking about how people are treated before they enter a country, which is a different kettle of fish. Of course, Ireland also interrogates and decides whom to allow into the country based on nationality. People who have not yet entered the country are not protected by Irish law.

ash23 wrote: »

I don't see how having people confirm their eligibility to claim CB on a regular basis is different? The criteria they have to meet is different.

Not really. Both have to prove the birth of the child (if the child was born abroad, the mother, Irish or not, has to provide the birth cert), both have to provide address, info on father, PPS number, etc. Both (even Irish) have to show, one way or another, that they are habitually resident in Ireland. The criteria is the same. And once both mothers are approved, the rules are the same -- you must notify CB if you leave the country, if the child doesn't live with you anymore, etc.

The discrimination comes in because even though both have satisfied the eligibilty criteria for CB, and both are following the same rules to maintain eligibility, Non-Irish Woman has to prove over and over again on a regular basis that she is still following those rules, while Irish Woman does not.

ash23

LostinKildare wrote: »

]Yes, a non-national may (or may not) have had to provide different and/or more information than you did to establish that eligibility,

So you appreciate that a non Irish resident may have to fill in different paperwork etc in order to prove they are eligible? So it's just a problem and discrimination (in your opinion) if it's on an ongoing basis?

That's not a great example because you are talking about how people are treated before they enter a country, which is a different kettle of fish. Of course, Ireland also interrogates and decides whom to allow into the country based on nationality. People who have not yet entered the country are not protected by Irish law.

Visas have to be renewed. I cant get into Oz/USA and stay there indefinitely working because I met the criteria when I entered. Until I become a citizen I have to keep reapplying to stay there. Isn't that the same thing?

Not really. Both have to prove the birth of the child (if the child was born abroad, the mother, Irish or not, has to provide the birth cert), both have to provide address, info on father, PPS number, etc. Both (even Irish) have to show, one way or another, that they are habitually resident in Ireland. The criteria is the same. And once both mothers are approved, the rules are the same -- you must notify CB if you leave the country, if the child doesn't live with you anymore, etc.

You don't have to provide info on the father btw.

The discrimination comes in because even though both have satisfied the eligibilty criteria for CB, and both are following the same rules to maintain eligibility, Non-Irish Woman has to prove over and over again on a regular basis that she is still following those rules, while Irish Woman does not.

Irish women ARE though! Many of us here have pointed out we have been spot checked too. I have EU friends who have never been checked.

Here's a solution.....Irish citizens continue to get CB. Move all EU and non EU nationals to another payment called Child Payment. Same amount, different criteria and forms etc. No discrimination.

No different between the other payments in existance then. If you're on disability, you've to prove it. On Job Seekers? Prove it. On OPFA? Prove it. etc etc etc.......

angelfire9

I am Irish my husband is Irish I haven't lived abroad since I was in college over 15 years ago our daughter is 9 born in Ireland and I've had to fill in one of these forms 3 times in the last 18 months or so
I don't mind I really don't see what the problem is you fill in the form send it back and all sorted til next time
I'd rather see that the DSCFA is doing these spot checks to reduce fraud than not do it at all and have the system being robbed by parents who are either no longer in the country or separated and both parents claiming benefit in 2 different areas (it happens)

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

So you appreciate that a non Irish resident may have to fill in different paperwork etc in order to prove they are eligible? So it's just a problem and discrimination (in your opinion) if it's on an ongoing basis?

You are not reading my posts carefully. A non-Irish resident fills in the exact same form that an Irish resident does, which outlines the same eligibility criteria that an Irish resident must meet, as I said here:

LostinKildare wrote: »

Both nationals and non-nationals fill out the same form which requires them to provide evidence of their eligiblity for CB.. . .
Both have to prove the birth of the child (if the child was born abroad, the mother, Irish or not, has to provide the birth cert), both have to provide address, info on father, PPS number, etc. Both (even Irish) have to show, one way or another, that they are habitually resident in Ireland. The criteria is the same.

The form is attached here: http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Forms/Documents/cb1.pdf

Some people may have to provide more evidence in support of their application than others, but that is also true for Irish applicants, not just non-nationals. For example, if an Irish mother gives birth outside Ireland, she must provide the birth cert, whereas if she gave birth in Ireland she does not. If she is employed, she must provide a letter from her employer. If she is receiving other SW payments, she must provide details of those. Similarly, if you have not lived in Ireland your entire life you will have to answer more questions about where you've been, and you may have to provide docs to satisfy the same condition that everyone must meet --- habitual residence. Everyone must meet that same criteria, one way or another, and that is why the application is not IMO discriminatory.

ash23 wrote: »

Visas have to be renewed. I cant get into Oz/USA and stay there indefinitely working because I met the criteria when I entered. Until I become a citizen I have to keep reapplying to stay there. Isn't that the same thing?

No, it's not the same thing. Australian/US immigration law is not the same as Irish law that governs access to social services, which is subject to the Irish Equality Acts. You're stretching for an analogy that doesn't work.

I'm American-born but a naturalised Irish citizen. My immigration status is not in question. I own a home, I pay taxes, I vote in every election, my family and my life are here. I'm not leaving Ireland, but I know a few Irish women that are planning to emigrate. They are more likely to commit CB fraud (by continuing to collect CB after they've left) than I am. Yet they've never been checked. I am checked every 3 months.

ash23 wrote: »

You don't have to provide info on the father btw.

Pardon, I should have said spouse/partner. See part 5, pp. 13-14 of the attached CB form.

ash23 wrote: »

LostinKildare wrote: »

The discrimination comes in because even though both have satisfied the eligibilty criteria for CB, and both are following the same rules to maintain eligibility, Non-Irish Woman has to prove over and over again on a regular basis that she is still following those rules, while Irish Woman does not.

Irish women ARE though! Many of us here have pointed out we have been spot checked too. I have EU friends who have never been checked.

Ash, if you cannot accept that there is an obvious difference between

A. being subject to a system that may or may not randomly choose you for a one-off spot check (if you are unlucky, you may be chosen more than once), and

B. being subject to a system that targets you specifically for checking regularly, automatically, four times a year

then what more can I say? Whether you or other Irish women have been randomly spot-checked for fraud once or twice or three times and you imagine this to be the same as routine, regular fraud checks, and whether your EU friends have somehow slipped through the cracks of govt policy, is irrelevant. The official govt policy is to discriminate amongst women --- all of whom have met the criteria to establish their child's eligibility for CB --- by subjecting them to different requirements based on their nation of origin.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

So you appreciate that a non Irish resident may have to fill in different paperwork etc in order to prove they are eligible? So it's just a problem and discrimination (in your opinion) if it's on an ongoing basis?

No, that's not what I said. A non-Irish resident fills in the exact same form that an Irish resident does, which outlines the same eligibility criteria that an Irish resident must meet, as I said here:

LostinKildare wrote: »

Both nationals and non-nationals fill out the same form which requires them to provide evidence of their eligiblity for CB.. . .
Both have to prove the birth of the child (if the child was born abroad, the mother, Irish or not, has to provide the birth cert), both have to provide address, info on father, PPS number, etc. Both (even Irish) have to show, one way or another, that they are habitually resident in Ireland. The criteria is the same.

The form is attached here: http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Forms/Documents/cb1.pdf

Some people may have to provide more evidence in support of their application than others, but that is true for everybody, including Irish applicants. For example, if an Irish mother gives birth outside Ireland, she must provide the birth cert, whereas if she gave birth in Ireland she does not. If she is employed, she must provide a letter from her employer. If she is receiving other SW payments, she must provide details of those. Similarly, if you have not lived in Ireland your entire life you will have to answer more questions about where you've been, and you may have to provide docs to satisfy the same condition that everyone must meet --- habitual residence. Everyone must meet that same criteria, one way or another, and that is why the application is not IMO discriminatory.

ash23 wrote: »

Visas have to be renewed. I cant get into Oz/USA and stay there indefinitely working because I met the criteria when I entered. Until I become a citizen I have to keep reapplying to stay there. Isn't that the same thing?

No, it's not the same thing. Australian/US immigration law is not the same as Irish law that governs access to social services, which is subject to the Irish Equal Status Acts. You're stretching for an analogy that doesn't work.

I'm American-born but a naturalised Irish citizen. My immigration status is not in question. I own a home, I pay taxes, I vote in every election, my family and life are here. I'm not leaving Ireland, but I know a few Irish women that are planning to emigrate. They are more likely to commit CB fraud than I am. Yet they've never been checked. I am checked every 3 months.

ash23 wrote: »

You don't have to provide info on the father btw.

Pardon, I should have said spouse/partner. See part 5, pp. 13-14 of the attached CB form.

ash23 wrote: »

LostinKildare wrote: »

The discrimination comes in because even though both have satisfied the eligibilty criteria for CB, and both are following the same rules to maintain eligibility, Non-Irish Woman has to prove over and over again on a regular basis that she is still following those rules, while Irish Woman does not.

Irish women ARE though! Many of us here have pointed out we have been spot checked too. I have EU friends who have never been checked.

Ash, if you cannot accept that there is an obvious difference between

A. being subject to a system that may or may not randomly choose you for a one-off spot check (if you are unlucky, you may be chosen more than once), and

B. being subject to a system that targets you specifically for checking regularly, automatically, four times a year

then what more can I say? Whether you or other Irish women have been randomly spot-checked for fraud once or twice or three times and you imagine this to be the same as routine, regular fraud checks, and whether your EU friends have somehow slipped through the cracks of govt policy, is irrelevant. The official govt policy is to discriminate amongst women --- all of whom have met the criteria to establish their child's eligibility for CB --- by subjecting them to different requirements based on their nations of origin.

dolphin city

look at the end of the day, if you have nothing to hide, then just fill the form out and send it in. No need to get mad or upset about it - just think to yourself "what a pack of idiots making me do this every three months" and then smile sweetly, fill it out and send it back to bombard them with more paperwork.

LostinKildare

dolphin city wrote: »

look at the end of the day, if you have nothing to hide, then just fill the form out and send it in. No need to get mad or upset about it - just think to yourself "what a pack of idiots making me do this every three months" and then smile sweetly, fill it out and send it back to bombard them with more paperwork.

I'd swear some of you have never dealt with an Irish govt office before. When govt depts are bombarded with paperwork or otherwise overwhelmed, it's the clients who suffer, not the govt. Think Passport Office backlog. Think HSE waiting lists.

When your Child Benefit has been cut off a few times because the CB office couldn't keep up with their post, come back and tell me how happy you'd be about going through the same song and dance every three months, year after year.

Somehow I think that if every mother in the state had to jump through this bureaucratic hoop four times a year, and deal with the annoying and inevitable screw ups that sometimes leave people unable to pay their bills, there'd be fewer calls for us to, in effect, suck it up.

ash23

LostinKildare wrote: »

I'd swear some of you have never dealt with an Irish govt office before. When govt depts are bombarded with paperwork or otherwise overwhelmed, it's the clients who suffer, not the govt. Think Passport Office backlog. Think HSE waiting lists.

Yes, and if we can eliminate welfare fraud there will be more in the budget for staffing....... knock on effect.

When your Child Benefit has been cut off a few times because the CB office couldn't keep up with their post, come back and tell me how happy you'd be about going through the same song and dance every three months, year after year.

My FIS renewal took 9 weeks. My medical card renewal took 3 months. And I just sent back my 2nd CB form in 6 months. No delay last time. It might happen this time. Who knows. But you know what, I DON'T MIND! If it means there's more in the budget for my daughters overcrowded school, or the waiting list for her speech therapy is reduced, or we get back our dental treatment on the PRSI system, then so be it. I'd fill in a form a day if it improves things.

We can't have it all.

Somehow I think that if every mother in the state had to jump through this bureaucratic hoop four times a year, and deal with the annoying and inevitable screw ups that sometimes leave people unable to pay their bills, there'd be fewer calls for us to, in effect, suck it up.

Well we all suck it up for FIS, OPFA, Job Seekers etc. The waiting times are getting longer and longer. Would you prefer it were means tested and had to be applied for every year, resulting in longer waiting times etc?

They decided not to means test it. instead they cut it for people whose children aren't resident. As a result, these forms were invented. Pain in the arse but so be it.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

LostinKildare wrote: »

When your Child Benefit has been cut off a few times because the CB office couldn't keep up with their post, come back and tell me how happy you'd be about going through the same song and dance every three months, year after year.

My FIS renewal took 9 weeks. My medical card renewal took 3 months. And I just sent back my 2nd CB form in 6 months. No delay last time. It might happen this time. Who knows. But you know what, I DON'T MIND!

Well Ash, you are quite the special woman if you DON'T MIND lengthy government delays in general, and, if I interpret your response to my post correctly, you WOULDN'T MIND if your Child Benefit was cut off repeatedly due to govt errors, and if you were targeted for unequal treatment by the govt due to your heritage. I have to hand it to you, you are a better woman than me.:)

ash23 wrote: »

Would you prefer it were means tested and had to be applied for every year, resulting in longer waiting times etc?

Do you have any basis for your rather strange suggestion that the alternative to the govt's discriminatory CB anti-fraud policy is annual applications, means testing, and longer waiting periods? How about, uh, just checking everyone for continuing eligibility on the same basis? Not dramatic enough for you?

What I want is for all qualified claimants to be treated equally, as Irish and EU law require, as I have said numerous times. Why do you oppose that?

ash23

LostinKildare wrote: »

Well Ash, you are quite the special woman if you DON'T MIND lengthy government delays in general, and, if I interpret your response to my post correctly, you WOULDN'T MIND if your Child Benefit was cut off repeatedly due to govt errors, and if you were targeted for unequal treatment by the govt due to your heritage. I have to hand it to you, you are a better woman than me.:)

Thank you. I try not to get overly worked up about things and try to see the bigger picture. Fraud costs money. Lack of money means worse services for people who actually need them and lack of staff to deal with them. I welcome any measures that will reduce fraud overall, even though they may affect me adversely. It's a pain in the arse but this country has gone to the dogs over the last few years and I tend to prioritise the facts that the vunerable are the ones suffering most over the fact that a few people are inconvenienced because their payment is delayed for a few weeks and then backdated.

Do you have any basis for your rather strange suggestion that the alternative to the govt's discriminatory CB anti-fraud policy is annual applications, means testing, and longer waiting periods? How about, uh, just checking everyone for continuing eligibility on the same basis? Not dramatic enough for you?

I don't think I'm being the one being overly dramatic.
My suggestion about means testing results from the last budget where there were very real possibilities that CB was to be means tested, resulting in outrage and a few protest marches if I recall.
Instead the amount was reduced and eligibility was amended. This resulted in the forms that you protest so much about. They really should have just abolished CB and set up different payments if they were going to amend the criteria.

What I want is for all qualified claimants to be treated equally, as Irish and EU law require, as I have said numerous times. Why do you oppose that?

Because I think you are overreacting. Simply put.

I'm never going to agree this is "discrimination". I just think it's a matter of qualifying and meeting the conditions set down.
I may very well get a form every 3 months for the next 10 years. It takes a minute to fill in. Name, PPS number, nationality and childs school/GP. The childs name and PPS number is pre printed for gods sake.

If you KNOW it's coming then be better prepared for it. Some people have to sign on weekly. They make arrangements if they are going to be away.

Cherrycola

I just spoke to a lady in the Child Benefit section who said everyone in Ireland who receives this payment is being sent this form.

Of course im one of the unlucky ones who didnt receive mine(sent to an old address, even though im 99% sure i updated my details with them when i moved :rolleyes: ), and didnt know anything about this until i checked my bank account and noticed the payment was not in it..........and neither was last months! :eek: I never noticed that one cos i was away at the time, and just assumed it was in the account as usual.
And its not like i dont need it, especially this month with all the back to school costs!

Anyway, they are sending me out another form, and any missed payments will be backdated.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

Because I think you are overreacting. Simply put.

I'm never going to agree this is "discrimination". I just think it's a matter of qualifying and meeting the conditions set down.
I may very well get a form every 3 months for the next 10 years. It takes a minute to fill in. Name, PPS number, nationality and childs school/GP. The childs name and PPS number is pre printed for gods sake.

If you KNOW it's coming then be better prepared for it. Some people have to sign on weekly. They make arrangements if they are going to be away.

I don't think I'm overreacting about the issue itself -- my vehemence has more to do with the fact that I am frustrated that you don't recognise my point that the official govt policy --- focusing these anti-fraud checks particularly on one group, based on their national origin --- is discriminatory.

You point out that some people have to sign on weekly. Yes. Well what if the govt announced today that from now on, all women have to sign on weekly, but men have to sign on only once a year?

If I understand your position correctly, your attitude would be "great, I'm happy that I and every other woman have to sign on every week! I welcome it, because it'll catch more (women) fraudsters and be for the greater good." And the fact that women have been singled out for unequal treatment wouldn't bother you in the least.

Fair enough, then. I concede that you are never going to see this as discrimination.

ash23

LostinKildare wrote: »

I don't think I'm overreacting about the issue itself -- my vehemence has more to do with the fact that I am frustrated that you don't recognise my point that the official govt policy --- focusing these anti-fraud checks particularly on one group, based on their national origin --- is discriminatory.

You point out that some people have to sign on weekly. Yes. Well what if the govt announced today that from now on, all women have to sign on weekly, but men have to sign on only once a year?

If I understand your position correctly, your attitude would be "great, I'm happy that I and every other woman have to sign on every week! I welcome it, because it'll catch more (women) fraudsters and be for the greater good." And the fact that women have been singled out for unequal treatment wouldn't bother you in the least.

Fair enough, then. I concede that you are never going to see this as discrimination.

Nope I don't think your analogy is the same thing at all. It's all about criteria and meeting that criteria and proving that you meet that criteria.
And I'll say it again, Irish people are being sent these forms too.

You seem to be saying that ALL Eu members are sent them every 3 months. I've told you that isn't the case in my experience. You've stated that Irish people don't get them but there are other sites where plenty of Irish people have stated they've gotten them regularly.

You don't actually have evidence that it is ONLY non Irish citizens who are getting them. The department are saying everyone gets them randomly but some get more than others. Since I've started getting them it's been with the same frequency as you complain about.
Come back to me when you can prove that it is ONLY non Irish citizens getting them on a regular basis and that ALL non Irish citizens are getting them.
And even then you still won't sell me the discrimination card because I will still point out that different criteria apply to non Irish citizens.

I'll break it down for you.

An Irish citizen automatically meets residency conditions. If they are from here and living here, odds are their kids are too. Not a given, but a fair assumption. Therefore not ALL Irish citizens are checked, a large portion are though and that is ever increasing. An Irish person who is not living here cannot claim CB for their children from the Irish welfare system.

An EU citizen here is deemed to be habitually resident because of the EU, freedom of passage etc. Those whose family are in another country can claim Irish CB. However, they can also claim CB in their home country and the Irish government will pay the balance. Irish CB is higher than most countries so in most cases they will be paying the difference. Therefore they need to know the childrens whereabouts so they can determine the correct payment. So the EU/EEA citizens ARE different to the Irish one in this element.

Non EU/Non EEA citizens must satisfy habitual residency condition so they are also different to the Irish citizens.

They can just rename the payment and have different applications and regulations for them all. They don't do this because frankly it's a waste of time and money I'd imagine.

dolphin city

LostinKildare wrote: »

I'd swear some of you have never dealt with an Irish govt office before. When govt depts are bombarded with paperwork or otherwise overwhelmed, it's the clients who suffer, not the govt. Think Passport Office backlog. Think HSE waiting lists.

When your Child Benefit has been cut off a few times because the CB office couldn't keep up with their post, come back and tell me how happy you'd be about going through the same song and dance every three months, year after year.

Somehow I think that if every mother in the state had to jump through this bureaucratic hoop four times a year, and deal with the annoying and inevitable screw ups that sometimes leave people unable to pay their bills, there'd be fewer calls for us to, in effect, suck it up.

sorry, lost in kildare, but everyone who lives in ireland has to deal with an Irish government office at some stage in their lives, unless they are hiding in the country. Ranting cause you have to fill out a form every three months is not going to stop the form coming to your door - tell it to the politicians when they knock, although after telling them, it will probably be coming once a month afterwards.

just fill it out - put a note on and say "this is my second, thrid fourth" - a little smiley face and off it goes, unless of course people (not the op) cannot "remember" what they put on the original form and get upset cause they have to resend it.

metrovelvet

My gripe with these letters is that they give you three weeks to get them back but they don't get through your postbox until two weeks after the date of the letter.

ash, an Irish citizen does not automatically meet residency conditions. Otherwise the entire diaspora in the US, Britain and Australia who carry dual nationalities would be entitled. But they are NOT residents.

Nevyn

The last one I got was left in the porch and got mangled by next door's dog, so I rang them and asked for a new one and they extended the time period.

LostinKildare

ash23 wrote: »

And I'll say it again, Irish people are being sent these forms too.

Yes we are in agreement there. When did I say otherwise?

ash23 wrote: »

You seem to be saying that ALL Eu members are sent them every 3 months.

No I didn't. I said that the policy is for non-Irish claimants, whether EU citizens or not, to get them every 3 months.

ash23 wrote: »

You've stated that Irish people don't get them

No, I did not. Are you willfully misunderstanding me? I said that the policy is to send them to non-Irish regularly every 3 months. Apparently, some Irish women are sent them with the same or less regularity --- the published policy doesn't specify anything about Irish AFAIK (but the CB supervisor told me that Irish are randomly selected). Irish women I know have never gotten one and don't know what I am talking about.

ash23 wrote: »

You don't actually have evidence that it is ONLY non Irish citizens who are getting them.

Nor did I ever assert that to be so.

ash23 wrote: »

The department are saying everyone gets them randomly but some get more than others.

No, the dept has stated that everyone does not get them on a random basis --- on the contrary, non-nationals in particular are supposed to get them regularly every 3 months (note: that is its stated policy; I cannot vouch for how they actually administer their policy!)

I linked to the SW web site that states that policy specifically. Both Hanafin and O Cuiv have confirmed the policy many, many times in response to parliamentary questions tabled by TDs who apparently have annoyed constituents who are "overreacting" even more than I am. Go to kildarestreet.com and search for "child benefit fraud" for a sample.

ash23 wrote: »

Come back to me when you can prove that it is ONLY non Irish citizens getting them on a regular basis and that ALL non Irish citizens are getting them.

I can only offer evidence for what I've been saying all along --- that it is the policy for all non-nationals to get them on a regular quarterly basis. Like I said, I do not know what the policy is for Irish nationals, I don't think it's published.

I would think that the link to the SW web site which specifically states the policy with regard to non-nationals would satisfy you, but here is Mary Hanafin last October:

In the case of non-Irish national recipients who are resident in Ireland with their children, certification is requested that the children continue to reside here – the proof of such residence can be provided via details of the school or college their child attends or, if the child is not of school-going age, details of the doctor or crèche they attend. This information is used to verify that the children are resident in Ireland, and for no other purpose. In the case of EU nationals who are working in Ireland but who have qualified children living in another EU state, certification by their employer of continuing employment is requested. Again, this information is not used for any other purpose. . . .

In 2008 some 80,000 certificates issued to non-Irish customers who qualify on the basis of employment or residency. . . .

Certificates are now issued on a quarterly basis to all customers who qualify for child benefit on the basis of employment or residency. . . .

The issue of certificates to Irish national customers is being assessed in the light of some recent mailshots

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-10-21.1046.0

In that example, in response to the TD's request that she "confirm the veracity of statements by staff in the child benefit section that all claimants, including Irish citizens, will receive these forms every three months in the near future," Hanafin answers, "The issue of certificates to Irish national customers is being assessed". Ha ha!

Hanafin in November:

The frequency of issue of mail shots to validate continued entitlement to Child Benefit has been increased to 3 monthly intervals for EU worker customers and resident non-Irish national customers.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-11-11.637.0&s=child+benefit#g643.0.r


Hanafin in December:

As a result of the review, enhanced and updated control measures have been devised. These include the issue, on a quarterly basis, of certificates to selected groups of customers for completion and return to the Department to confirm that they continue to satisfy the conditions for receipt of Child Benefit. . . . Customers selected for the reviews have to date been selected largely from non-Irish nationals in receipt of Child Benefit, both those with children resident in Ireland and those working here whose children are resident outside of Ireland.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-12-08.1560.0&s=child+benefit#g1562.0.r



So there you go, it is as I said, their policy is to check on non-nationals every 3 months, Irish nationals, not so much.

ash23 wrote: »

And even then you still won't sell me the discrimination card because I will still point out that different criteria apply to non Irish citizens.

I'll break it down for you.

An Irish citizen automatically meets residency conditions. . . .
An EU citizen here is deemed to be habitually resident because of the EU, freedom of passage etc. . . .
Non EU/Non EEA citizens must satisfy habitual residency condition so they are also different to the Irish citizens.

No, that is incorrect. From the SW web site:

Habitual residence in Ireland is a condition that you must satisfy for certain social welfare payments and Child Benefit. This condition took effect from 1 May 2004 and affects all applicants regardless of nationality.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW108/Pages/1WhatistheHabitualResidencecondition.aspx

From the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005:

246.—(1) For the purpose of each provision of this Act specified in subsection (3), it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that a person is not habitually resident in the State at the date of the making of the application concerned unless the person has been present in the State or any other part of the Common Travel Area for a continuous period of 2 years ending on that date.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/sec0246.html

Mary Hanafin suggests that eligibility for CB has nothing to do with nationality, only with criteria common to all (like habitual residence):

Any person who satisfies all the conditions for a particular scheme is entitled to that payment regardless of their nationality . . . The requirement to be habitually resident in Ireland was introduced as a qualifying condition for certain social assistance schemes and child benefit with effect from 1st May 2004.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-12-08.1590.0&s=child+benefit#g1592.0.r

According to the government, 45 Irish citizen applicants were denied Child Benefit last year because they did not meet the Habitual Residence requirement. Obviously it is not "automatic".
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-01-19.2816.0&s=child+benefit#g2819.0.r