Sinn Féin 'heavily involved' in push for ETA ceasefire

dlofnep

Sinn Féin's leader, Gerry Adams, said today his party had been heavily involved in pushing armed Basque separatist group Eta towards calling a ceasefire at the weekend.

As Spain's Socialist government ruled out negotiations and claimed Eta had announced the ceasefire because it was now too weak to carry out terrorist attacks, Adams, writing in the Guardian, said the move had been the result of months of talks amongst Basque separatists.

"This dialogue also involved senior Sinn Féin representatives, including myself," he said. "Sometimes the discussions were held in the Basque country, sometimes in Belfast and on a number of occasions in recent years Sinn Féin representatives travelled to Geneva for meetings with Basque representatives." It was not clear whether the meetings were with members of Eta, or only with other radical separatist groups from the Basque country.

Eta had responded by calling a ceasefire that, Adams hoped, would be grasped by the Spanish government as an opportunity to start a peace process that might follow some of the principles used in Ulster.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/06/sinn-fein-eta-ceasefire-gerry-adams

Considering boards is always quick to bash old Gerry - It's always worth noting his merits. ETA's move can only be seen as a positive move towards bringing peace to the Basque Country & Spain. I think the world is growing tired of war - and the time for politics is upon us. It's good to see Gerry use his influence to try and bring peace to the Basque & Spanish people, like he did here in Ireland. I sincerely hope the Spanish Government use this opportunity to begin to work with the Basque community, and allow them to address their concerns.

Maith thú Gerry.

mike65

I don't think this is a surprise to many, the Peace Process (to be cont) has been the making of Gerry Adams as a politician no doubt he sees that the ETA leadership could gain similarly if they play their cards right. The Madrid government seem to be a bit sniffy about the offer but thats probably just for show.

oscarBravo

Fair play to him. I look forward to the day when everyone realises that it's wrong to kill innocent civilians for a political goal.

karma_

I don't vote for his party (or any party any-more) but I tell you what I respect Gerry Adams as a politician. He is erudite, articulate and charismatic and has to be granted recognition for his role in the peace process.

I found it interesting to read what Tony Blair's impression of him was, and have to say was not surprised they got on well.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

I don't vote for his party (or any party any-more) but I tell you what I respect Gerry Adams as a politician. He is erudite, articulate and charismatic and has to be granted recognition for his role in the peace process.

I found it interesting to read what Tony Blair's impression of him was, and have to say was not surprised they got on well.

Tony blair apparently got on well with everyone in the peace process. Why take anything he says seriously in that regard? All Tony Blair cares for is his reputation.

imme

dlofnep wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/06/sinn-fein-eta-ceasefire-gerry-adams

Considering boards is always quick to bash old Gerry - It's always worth noting his merits. ETA's move can only be seen as a positive move towards bringing peace to the Basque Country & Spain. I think the world is growing tired of war - and the time for politics is upon us. It's good to see Gerry use his influence to try and bring peace to the Basque & Spanish people, like he did here in Ireland. I sincerely hope the Spanish Government use this opportunity to begin to work with the Basque community, and allow them to address their concerns.

Maith thú Gerry.

Laughing out loud. Thanks OP that gave me a good laugh.

What are the "concerns" of the Basque People of which you speak. They want their own country, Spain wants them in Spain. Spain has granted them autonomous status. Am I missing something.

If ETA stopped killing people then people wouldn't die. Is Gerry planning a visit to Colombia any time soon to announce that he's been setting the FARC on the road to political ends?

Incidentally I see that the Spanish government has said that they're still 'at war' with ETA as they can't be trusted. Is Gerry's work finished?

dlofnep

imme wrote: »

What are the "concerns" of the Basque People of which you speak. They want their own country, Spain wants them in Spain. Spain has granted them autonomous status. Am I missing something.

You might want to ask the Basque people that - I'm not one of them. This thread isn't here to argue the case for, or against Basque independence.

imme wrote: »

Is Gerry planning a visit to Colombia any time soon to announce that he's been setting the FARC on the road to political ends?

That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

imme wrote: »

Incidentally I see that the Spanish government has said that they're still 'at war' with ETA as they can't be trusted. Is Gerry's work finished?

We can only go on the current facts. They are that ETA has called a cease-fire, and that Adam's has stated that Sinn Féin influenced the move. I'd imagine Gerry's work with regards to influencing peace in the Basque Country and Spain is an ongoing process.

Most people see this as a positive move. But there's always one who will put a negative spin on a genuinely positive move for peace.

imme

dlofnep wrote: »

You might want to ask the Basque people that - I'm not one of them. This thread isn't here to argue the case for, or against Basque independence.



That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



We can only go on the current facts. They are that ETA has called a cease-fire, and that Adam's has stated that Sinn Féin influenced the move. I'd imagine Gerry's work with regards to influencing peace in the Basque Country and Spain is an ongoing process.

Most people see this as a positive move. But there's always one who will put a negative spin on a genuinely positive move for peace.

you were the one who brought up the "concerns" of the Basque 'people'.

I raised Colombia ( which I recognise has nothing to do with the topic in hand) to see if Gerry would spreading the love/peace worldwide. It's not so long that other republicians went over there to spread some other knowledge, although they said they were birdwatching.:D

Yes, the fact is that ETA has called a ceasefire, not the first time either, every other time they've broken it and went back to murdering policemen, judges and elected politicians, usually councillors.


Of course it's a good thing that ETA will no longer be murdering people to further their political ends. It's good that they've finally come to that position. Well done to all those involved in the furtherance of peace, whether they announce it or not.

Fratton Fred

karma_ wrote: »

I don't vote for his party (or any party any-more) but I tell you what I respect Gerry Adams as a politician. He is erudite, articulate and charismatic and has to be granted recognition for his role in the peace process.

I found it interesting to read what Tony Blair's impression of him was, and have to say was not surprised they got on well.

I'm not so sure about Charismatic, but whilst I don't agree with the methods used in the past, I do admire the way he has dragged the IRA away from the Armalite and towards the ballot box. I believe that he aklso has a certain amount of sympathy for the unionist position, but I think he himself said that a lot of what he has been saying was drowned out by the noise of bullets and bombs.

I don't know too much about the ETA campaign, but is there the divide in the community that there was in NI? are they campaigning for civial rights for Basque people, or is it just a case that they want their own country.

Why do they only bomb Spain and not France by the way?

dlofnep

imme wrote: »

you were the one who brought up the "concerns" of the Basque 'people'.

As a matter of context for the post. If you wish to discuss the concerns of the Basque people, create a thread for it and I'll be more than happy to do so. But in short - it transcends beyond independence (although, seeking full self-determination is a perfectly legitimate aim). It's not uncommon to see 100,000 people to march in support for Basque independence.

Political figures who aspire to bring about independence are harassed by authorities, or jailed without any merit. Such actions usually bring out large numbers in response to the actions of the Spanish authorities. It is a criminalization campaign, and is a stab in the heart of democracy. These are the issues that Basque people wish to address.

It would serve you well to actually sit down with someone from the Basque country, and ask them about their concerns - instead of making an ill-formed judgement about them on the internet.

imme wrote: »

I raised Colombia ( which I recognise has nothing to do with the topic in hand)

You raised Colombia, because you're unable to actually engage with the topic at hand - And that's Sinn Féin's influence on ETA, with intent to bring about peace. If you spent less time on red herrings, and more time on discussing the actual topic - I might take your posts a little more seriously.

imme wrote: »

Well done to all those involved in the furtherance of peace, whether they announce it or not.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/06/sinn-fein-eta-ceasefire-gerry-adams

Considering boards is always quick to bash old Gerry - It's always worth noting his merits. ETA's move can only be seen as a positive move towards bringing peace to the Basque Country & Spain. I think the world is growing tired of war - and the time for politics is upon us. It's good to see Gerry use his influence to try and bring peace to the Basque & Spanish people, like he did here in Ireland. I sincerely hope the Spanish Government use this opportunity to begin to work with the Basque community, and allow them to address their concerns.

Maith thú Gerry.

It may be seen as positive, but it is early days yet. ETA does not have a good track record of maintaining cease fires.

TBH, I'm a little suspicious about what's going on here. The French, Portuguese and Spanish authorities have made a huge number of arrests over the last few months, and really thrown the operations and leadership of ETA into disarray. ETA is now calling for a ceasefire from a position of weakness, and I think one way to read Gerry Adams' announcement is that it is a face-saving measure for his Basque political allies.

imme

dlofnep wrote: »

As a matter of context for the post. If you wish to discuss the concerns of the Basque people, create a thread for it and I'll be more than happy to do so. But in short - it transcends beyond independence (although, seeking full self-determination is a perfectly legitimate aim). It's not uncommon to see 100,000 people to march in support for Basque independence.

Political figures who aspire to bring about independence are harassed by authorities, or jailed without any merit. Such actions usually bring out large numbers in response to the actions of the Spanish authorities. It is a criminalization campaign, and is a stab in the heart of democracy. These are the issues that Basque people wish to address.

It would serve you well to actually sit down with someone from the Basque country, and ask them about their concerns - instead of making an ill-formed judgement about them on the internet.



You raised Colombia, because you're unable to actually engage with the topic at hand - And that's Sinn Féin's influence on ETA, with intent to bring about peace. If you spent less time on red herrings, and more time on discussing the actual topic - I might take your posts a little more seriously.



That wasn't hard, now was it?

-"transcends beyond independence", do they want immortality as well?

-"jailed without any merit", Spain is a democratic country, a member of the EU. Are you saying they're just arresting people without just cause, a trial?

-Ok, I should meet some Basque people to see why they thought it was ok, up to now, to murder innocent people for POLITICAL REASONS. I don't come across too many Basque but the last time I remember Basques being in Dublin they started a fight and had a go at the Gardai:
from www.tribune.ie

"Basque separatists attack Spanish restaurant in Dublin

CATHERINE CLEARY
THREE young men involved in a protest by Basque separatists in Dublin city centre are expected to be charged with public order, criminal damage and assault charges after an Irish-owned Spanish restaurant in Dublin's Temple Bar was attacked yesterday.

Gardaí said a group of 40 Basque separatists invited by an Irish solidarity group arrived in Ireland via Belfast on Friday.

They gathered in Parnell Square yesterday morning and walked to Grafton Street where they began handing out leaflets. Gardaí said the Irish solidarity group then headed to the GPO on O'Connell St for a further protest.

The visiting group were walking to the Ha'penny Bridge, to have a photograph taken, a garda spokesman said, when a number of protesters saw La Paloma, an Irish-owned restaurant serving Spanish food in Temple Bar. A Spanish soccer flag and neon lighting outside the restaurant were damaged and gardai said the son of the owner came out to try and stop the protesters.

Gardaí said the man was attacked and a fight ensued in Temple Bar Square where an English stag party intervened to help at one stage. A lone garda arrived after a call to the gardaí and backup was called after the garda was assaulted.

In the ensuing melee, garda hats and Basque flags were thrown in the Liffey as the disturbance moved onto the quays.

The spokesman said gardaí were assaulted but none were treated for injuries in hospital. Two men in their twenties who were identified by the restrauteur as the people who caused the damage were arrested by gardaí on the south quays. A third protester was arrested on the northside and is photographed above being put into a Garda car after several cars were called as back-up.

The men were taken to Pearse Street Garda station.
August 4, 2002".

Please don't be making judgements dlofnep. I've been to the Basque country, the Spanish and the French part, thanks.

-I raised Colombia to show that things can change, i.e. not long ago people attached to the same organisation as G Adams went to meet the FARC, according to the Colombian authorities to impart their bomb-making capabilities. They were there for the birdwatching according to themselves.

-Yes, I respect people who go about politics in a peaceful manner. Should I be congratulating ETA for stepping away from murdering people? for however long their ceasefire lasts. I don't think so.

dlofnep

imme wrote: »

-"jailed without any merit", Spain is a democratic country, a member of the EU.

What has being a member of the EU got to do without anything? Britain was a member of the EU (EC) when it interned 100's of innocent people without a trial.

imme wrote: »

Are you saying they're just arresting people without just cause, a trial?

Yes. State torture and suppression of free-speech not withstanding.

imme wrote: »

-Ok, I should meet some Basque people to see why they thought it was ok, up to now, to murder innocent people for POLITICAL REASONS.

Who said anything about saying it was ok to murder innocent people? I don't believe anyone justified the actions of ETA in this thread. This thread is here to discuss the influence that Sinn Féin had in bringing about a much-needed cease-fire to the region. You have since, attempted to take the thread completely off-topic.

imme wrote: »

I don't come across too many Basque but the last time I remember Basques being in Dublin they started a fight and had a go at the Gardai:

So you judge the entire Basque people based on the actions of a few people? How fair and balanced of you. :rolleyes:

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

Who said anything about saying it was ok to murder innocent people? I don't believe anyone justified the actions of ETA in this thread. This thread is here to discuss the influence that Sinn Féin had in bringing about a much-needed cease-fire to the region. You have since, attempted to take the thread completely off-topic.

Influence on what? ETA is in disarray, and Gerry Adams is doing them a favor in trying to frame this as some kind of well thought out process. At this point, they seem to have more in common with the Tamil Tigers than the Provos; the only difference is that the Spanish government isn't going to liquidate thousands in the process of breaking the organization.

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

Influence on what?

Influence on establishing a cease-fire and peace in the region. I thought that much was obvious.

demonspawn

imme wrote: »

"Basque separatists attack Spanish restaurant in Dublin

Good for them! I heard the food in that place was sh*te and they overcharged for it. The dudes probably just wanted their money back and were kicked out. I'd have probably done the same thing. Oh, and bolding certain words in your post like that doesn't actually contribute to the point you're trying to make, it just looks like underhanded tactics to me.

On a more serious note, for some strange reason various liberation movements have looked to the IRA as an example. Sinn Féin, as the political face of the IRA, have decided to attempt to distance themselves from violence in favor of a democratic process. It's only logical that the ones that looked to them for guidance are beginning to do the same thing. It's a bit of a no-brainer really.

Oh, and can someone tell me how to do the fada on the vowels?

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

Influence on establishing a cease-fire and peace in the region. I thought that much was obvious.

It's not obvious given the fact that the French, Portuguese, and Spanish authorities have made numerous arrests of top leadership in the last several months, and ETA is organizationally very weak. As I said, the cease-fire comes from a position of weakness, and I think Adams is trying to help them save face. Given ETA's history of reneging on cease fires, and the fact that the government seems to have them on the ropes, Zapatero has little incentive to negotiate (and the public has absolutely no appetite for it).

dlofnep

That is your opinion.

demonspawn

southsiderosie wrote: »

Given ETA's history of reneging on cease fires, and the fact that the government seems to have them on the ropes, Zapatero has little incentive to negotiate (and the public has absolutely no appetite for it).

And what about the Spanish government's history of reneging? ETA call a cease fire because of a promise from Spain to hold talks, Spain renegs, ETA calls off the cease fire.

So who's the one at fault in that situation?

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

That is your opinion.

The state of ETA is not an opinion; it's a fact.

The British and Provos had to sit down with each other because neither could fully do away with the other, or have any hopes of peace without cooperation. The Spanish government is in a completely different position - they have little incentive to negotiate with ETA, especially given the events of the past few months.

Yes my statements on Adams are an opinion. Adams is very PR savvy, and a good back room wheeler and dealer. But look at his history: the IRA and Sinn Fein internationalized the conflict in a way that garnered tremendous overseas support. Why is it so shocking that the same dynamic could be in play here - even though the context of the armed conflict is completely different?

Finally, what exactly is Gerry Adams going to "get" for the Basques? They already have an extremely high level of regional autonomy - higher than in Northern Ireland, it should be noted. Not all Basques are in favor of independence; the current leader of the regional government is a Socialist. Ceasefires in exchange for government concessions are basically off the table, especially after 2006. This whole song-and-dance is aimed at an international audience; citizens of Spain are sick of it.

Originally Posted by demonspawn
And what about the Spanish government's history of reneging? ETA call a cease fire because of a promise from Spain to hold talks, Spain renegs, ETA calls off the cease fire.

So who's the one at fault in that situation?

During the last "ceasefire" in 2006 Zapatero negotiated in good faith with ETA - despite the sensitivity of the issue after the Madrid bombings - and ETA turned around and bombed the airport.

The vast majority of the Basque people reject ETA and reject violence. I honestly do not understand what Adams is trying to do here. By all means, support the PNV, but ETA?

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

And what about the Spanish government's history of reneging? ETA call a cease fire because of a promise from Spain to hold talks, Spain renegs, ETA calls off the cease fire.

So who's the one at fault in that situation?

The guys killing people with bombs?

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'd say the hardliners in ETA would see Sinn Fein and the IRA as a good example of why they shouldn't disband.

I would be inclined to believe the Spanish government's version of events to be honest.

demonspawn

djpbarry wrote: »

The guys killing people with bombs?

I don't agree with their methods but I understand their motives. The Spanish government makes promise after promise and they keep breaking them every time. ETA are not looking for half the country of Spain. They want a tiny sliver of land in the north. The Spanish government refuse this for no reason whatsoever. The Basque region has historically been independent from both Spain and France, they should have their own state. Playing political games in unacceptable at this stage.

KeithAFC

It would not surprise me if Gerry Adams was behind getting them to enter into talks. After all, he has plenty of experience after putting the gun down.

Jeboa Safari

Have to say, I respect Gerry Adams as a politician, even though I don't agree with his policies. I remember one of the leaders debates before the last election, thought he came across well, polite, but the other leaders were very dismissive of him, and wouldn't let him make his points without talking over him, annoyed me a bit

timespast

dlofnep wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/06/sinn-fein-eta-ceasefire-gerry-adams

Considering boards is always quick to bash old Gerry - It's always worth noting his merits. ETA's move can only be seen as a positive move towards bringing peace to the Basque Country & Spain. I think the world is growing tired of war - and the time for politics is upon us. It's good to see Gerry use his influence to try and bring peace to the Basque & Spanish people, like he did here in Ireland. I sincerely hope the Spanish Government use this opportunity to begin to work with the Basque community, and allow them to address their concerns.

Maith thú Gerry.

I believe Adams and McGuinness have made a lasting contribution which will be remembered for years to come. Here and abroad.

Say what you like about them...... they can actually get things moving..... not like some of our clowns down here.

Einhard

If Gerry Adams is genuinely involved in building a lasting settlement in Spain then he deserves some credit. However, it really irks me when terrorists are showered with plaudits and hailed as peacemakers because they decide to stop murdering people. Pity they ever took it up in the first place.

imme

dlofnep wrote: »

What has being a member of the EU got to do without anything? Britain was a member of the EU (EC) when it interned 100's of innocent people without a trial.



Yes. State torture and suppression of free-speech not withstanding.



Who said anything about saying it was ok to murder innocent people? I don't believe anyone justified the actions of ETA in this thread. This thread is here to discuss the influence that Sinn Féin had in bringing about a much-needed cease-fire to the region. You have since, attempted to take the thread completely off-topic.



So you judge the entire Basque people based on the actions of a few people? How fair and balanced of you. :rolleyes:

-Any state that engages in torture is acting against fundamental human rights. The case which you highlight was overturned by the courts, surely this highlights the democratic nature of Spain. Don't you agree?

I'm glad to see that Spain is ensuring life and liberty for all, unlike ETA heretofore.

-Yeah I'd hope that most people on here would be against ETA taking it on themselves to murder people to further political aims, just like the majority of people in the Spanish Basque country are. Political parties affiliated to ETA in turn were never in the majority, even in the autonomous region.
Yes, you're quite right OP this thread is about the influence of SF on ETA in declaring a ceasefire. In this regard I did a search to see how newspapers and news sites were reporting it. There isn't much about. The search threw up the Ogra SF website, where there's a thread congratulating ETA for announcing a ceasefire. There's an interesting poster on the site linking the struggles of the Basques with Northern Irish Republicans, the motto is "Unity in Struggle".

Again, apologies readers if this is going off topic, I just thought it was intersting.;)

-I posted the newspaper report in the context of Basques in Dublin. I did say that I've been to the French and Spanish Basque countries. Is the mark of someone who has judged an entire people or historical region.

imme

demonspawn wrote: »

Good for them! I heard the food in that place was sh*te and they overcharged for it. The dudes probably just wanted their money back and were kicked out. I'd have probably done the same thing. Oh, and bolding certain words in your post like that doesn't actually contribute to the point you're trying to make, it just looks like underhanded tactics to me.

On a more serious note, for some strange reason various liberation movements have looked to the IRA as an example. Sinn Féin, as the political face of the IRA, have decided to attempt to distance themselves from violence in favor of a democratic process. It's only logical that the ones that looked to them for guidance are beginning to do the same thing. It's a bit of a no-brainer really.

Oh, and can someone tell me how to do the fada on the vowels?

I didn't bold any words, Demonspawn. It resulted from an internet search. Yes SinnFein do find common cause with others around the world, ETA, FARC, the Palestinians. (It always amuses me and makes me sad if I go to the north of Ireland and see a Palestinian flag flying in a nationalist area and then an Israeli one flying in a unionist area nextdoor.)

Finding common cause would appear not to be a new phenonemon.
www86.homepage.villanova.edu/.../Michael%20Silvestri,%20Sinn%20Fein%20of%20India.pdf

demonspawn

imme wrote: »

I didn't bold any words, Demonspawn. It resulted from an internet search. Yes SinnFein do find common cause with others around the world, ETA, FARC, the Palestinians. (It always amuses me and makes me sad if I go to the north of Ireland and see a Palestinian flag flying in a nationalist area and then an Israeli one flying in a unionist area nextdoor.)

Finding common cause would appear not to be a new phenonemon.
www86.homepage.villanova.edu/.../Michael%20Silvestri,%20Sinn%20Fein%20of%20India.pdf

The north of Ireland? What, like Cavan? Why would Unionists be flying flags in Cavan? I didn't even know we had Unionists down here. I'm terribly confused. And your link is broken.

imme

demonspawn wrote: »

The north of Ireland? What, like Cavan? Why would Unionists be flying flags in Cavan? I didn't even know we had Unionists down here. I'm terribly confused. And your link is broken.

Northern Ireland silly:rolleyes:

didn't you know, there's unionists everywhere.:D


here goes again, thanks demon
http://www86.homepage.villanova.edu/maghan.keita/readingsterrorism/terrorism/Michael%20Silvestri,%20Sinn%20Fein%20of%20India.pdf

southsiderosie

imme wrote: »

-Any state that engages in torture is acting against fundamental human rights. The case which you highlight was overturned by the courts, surely this highlights the democratic nature of Spain. Don't you agree?

THANK YOU. There are still a lot of conservative members of the PP who are allergic to any claims for linguistic and regional autonomy. But at least modern democratic Spain has the institutions to deal with it.

imme wrote: »

Yes, you're quite right OP this thread is about the influence of SF on ETA in declaring a ceasefire. In this regard I did a search to see how newspapers and news sites were reporting it. There isn't much about. The search threw up the Ogra SF website, where there's a thread congratulating ETA for announcing a ceasefire. There's an interesting poster on the site linking the struggles of the Basques with Northern Irish Republicans, the motto is "Unity in Struggle".

There is even less about it in Spain. The BBC and the Guardian are more interested in the Adams angle than the Spanish media.

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

ETA are not looking for half the country of Spain. They want a tiny sliver of land in the north. The Spanish government refuse this for no reason whatsoever.

The Spanish government refuse because ETA believe in blowing people up in order to achieve their goals. Considering that the overwhelming majority of Spaniards completely reject ETA (and the majority of Basques too, I would imagine), it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if their political representatives embraced ETA and gave into their demands, would it? Why should ETA be permitted to dictate anything to Spain?

demonspawn wrote: »

The Basque region has historically been independent from both Spain and France...

Redrawing the map of Europe based on historical territorial claims is not going to be terribly practical, is it?

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

The state of ETA is not an opinion; it's a fact.

They may be in a weakened state, but you are hardly in the privy position of being able to fully map out their organisational strengths and weakenesses. I have no doubt that there are a substantial amount people ready to join the ranks of ETA. The threat from them will always exist - Bringing about a peace process is a positive move, and it didn't "have" to come from them. But it has and Sinn Féin has apparently influenced it. I see this as a positive move.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes my statements on Adams are an opinion. Adams is very PR savvy, and a good back room wheeler and dealer. But look at his history: the IRA and Sinn Fein internationalized the conflict in a way that garnered tremendous overseas support. Why is it so shocking that the same dynamic could be in play here - even though the context of the armed conflict is completely different?

It's funny that despite being one of the cornerstones of bringing peace to Ireland, all you have to say is that he's "PR Savvy". Time will be a friend of Gerry Adams. Without him - peace in Ireland would not be possible. That's the reality of the situation.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Finally, what exactly is Gerry Adams going to "get" for the Basques? They already have an extremely high level of regional autonomy - higher than in Northern Ireland, it should be noted.

It's not about what he is going to get for them. That's for them to decide. But if he influences them to achieve their goals through a political framework - then that's clearly a positive thing.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The vast majority of the Basque people reject ETA and reject violence. I honestly do not understand what Adams is trying to do here. By all means, support the PNV, but ETA?

Gerry Adams doesn't support ETA. Influencing them to drop their arms is hardly demonstrating "support" for their actions. Infact, it displays the opposite.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Sure

All I see is a link for a man who was once a member of Sinn Féin, was released without charge in relation to the shooting of Robert Delany. Did I miss something?

Tell me exactly how Sinn Féin was heavily involved in this?

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

It's funny that despite being one of the cornerstones of bringing peace to Ireland, all you have to say is that he's "PR Savvy".

That kind of ignores the fact that Mr. Adams was one the instigators of the violence that you are crediting him with ending. Now he’s doing a bit of PR work in Spain, we’re supposed to hold him up as some sort of champion of peace? Sorry, no sale.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

That kind of ignores the fact that Mr. Adams was one the instigators of the violence that you are crediting him with ending. Now he’s doing a bit of PR work in Spain, we’re supposed to hold him up as some sort of champion of peace? Sorry, no sale.

No matter what positive work Gerry Adams does, it would never be enough for certain people. I'm not here to sell anything to you. You can either accept his role in the peace process, or you can't. Many others will praise his work, including by the way - former British PM - Tony Blair.

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

It's funny that despite being one of the cornerstones of bringing peace to Ireland, all you have to say is that he's "PR Savvy". Time will be a friend of Gerry Adams. Without him - peace in Ireland would not be possible. That's the reality of the situation.

Jesus Christ dlofnep, are you for real?! The reason he's a cornerstone for peace is because he was also a cornerstone of the bloody violence. How much bloody credit are we supposed to give to men who decide one day that they'll give up murder and the sanctioning of murder?! If I go out on a killing spree and then give it up, will you laud me in a similar manner?! Yes, the man deserves some credit, but let's get a bit of perspective here. The credit he deserves is for turning his back on the violence which made up such a great part of his agenda and life over the years, and any plaudits should take this into account. It's amusing how some people defend the violence orchestrated by the likes of Messrs Adams and McGuinness, and yet praise both of them to high heaven for ending it. Or worse, condemn the violence they played a part in instigating, and then practically canonise them as peacemakers. As I said already, pity he and others ever took up such violence in the first place.

imme

dlofnep wrote: »

They may be in a weakened state, but you are hardly in the privy position of being able to fully map out their organisational strengths and weakenesses. I have no doubt that there are a substantial amount people ready to join the ranks of ETA.


It's funny that despite being one of the cornerstones of bringing peace to Ireland, all you have to say is that he's "PR Savvy". Time will be a friend of Gerry Adams. Without him - peace in Ireland would not be possible. That's the reality of the situation.

Gerry Adams doesn't support ETA.

-"Organisational strengths and weaknesses" That kind of talk makes me sick. They were a group of people who took it on themselves to murder,kidnap,extort for their POLITICAL aims. They were no legitimate, maybe you think they were.
There were not substantial amounts of people ready to join ETA. They've been beaten into a corner and a ceasefire (however long it lasts) was their only option.

-Yeah it's a pity G Adams didn't use his considerable talents 20-years earlier, then maybe as many people needn't have died needlessly in Northern Ireland.

-You sure that SF doesn't support ETA
http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/catalog/images/BasqueDesignweb.jpg
http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2010/09/ogra-shinn-fein-welcome-eta-ceasefire.html

You sure about that

Sinn Fein find common cause with likeminded organisations around the world, it's not new, why would someone deny that?

Einhard

imme wrote: »

Sinn Fein find common cause with likeminded organisations around the world, it's not new, why would someone deny that?

You silly person you!! Don't you know that Sinn Fein are peacemakers, and have never supported violence?!

dlofnep

imme wrote: »

-"Organisational strengths and weaknesses" That kind of talk makes me sick.

What kind of talk? You're not even making sense. You were the one making claims about the current standing of ETA. I stated that you're hardly in a position to assess their strength or weaknesses. How exactly is that sick talk? Get a grip.

imme wrote: »

They were a group of people who took it on themselves to murder,kidnap,extort for their POLITICAL aims. They were no legitimate, maybe you think they were.

At no point did I state I supported ETA in this thread, nor at any point in this thread did I defend any of their actions. Are we reading the same thread here?

imme wrote: »

There were not substantial amounts of people ready to join ETA. They've been beaten into a corner and a ceasefire (however long it lasts) was their only option.

And you're qualified to make such a comment because? Are you apart of the Spanish counter-terrorism force by any chance? Of course there will always be people ready to join the ranks of ETA - whether their views be misguided or not. If you look at dissident Republicans, they are hardly in a position of strength either - but yet, they still have their base of supporters, just like ETA will. Which is why this cease-fire should be welcomed.

imme wrote: »

-Yeah it's a pity G Adams didn't use his considerable talents 20-years earlier, then maybe as many people needn't have died needlessly in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps if Britain didn't lock up innocent people without a trial, and collude with loyalist terrorists and gerrymander the state - then there might have been a chance at an earlier point for politics. But that's here nor there now, is it?

Gerry Adams worked hard with not only ending the IRA's campaign, but also in getting a large portion of the nationalist population to support the Good Friday Agreement and it's objectives. For this - He deserves credit, and the if the former British PM can admit it - then the Irish public certainly can admit it.

imme wrote: »

-You sure that SF doesn't support ETA
http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/catalog/images/BasqueDesignweb.jpg
http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2010/09/ogra-shinn-fein-welcome-eta-ceasefire.html

You sure about that

One link is an image that draws a parallel between the legitimate struggle for Irish & Basque independence (Which does not mention ETA) - The other is a link to Ógra Shinn Fein's statement which welcomed ETA's cease fire. I don't think I'm the one who's confused here at all.

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

and the if the former British PM can admit it - then the Irish public certainly can admit it.

LOL sure if Tony Blair says so it must be true!

dlofnep

Einhard wrote: »

LOL sure if Tony Blair says so it must be true!

It doesn't disprove, nor prove it. It merely adds merit to his case. Like I have already stated, there will always be those who refuse to acknowledge his work on the peace process. It isn't my job to try and convince these people. In list of priorities for each day - convincing you of Gerry Adams' merits doesn't come into the equation unfortunately.

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

It doesn't disprove, nor prove it. It merely adds merit to his case.

Right. So just because Tony Blair thinks it's the case, doesn't mean we should all think it's the case. Glad we cleared that up.

Like I have already stated, there will always be those who refuse to acknowledge his work on the peace process. It isn't my job to try and convince these people. In list of priorities for each day - convincing you of Gerry Adams' merits doesn't come into the equation unfortunately.

Like I have already said, Adams does deserve some credit for helping to bring an end to the violence, but that has to be balanced by an acknowledgement that they played a major part both perpetrating, and perpetuating the violence. An awful lot of people who laud him for the former, refuse to acknowledge the latter in any meaningful way.

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

No matter what positive work Gerry Adams does, it would never be enough for certain people.

Oh I'm sure people such as Anne McCabe are well impressed with Gerry's "positive work" in Spain.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh I'm sure people such as Anne McCabe are well impressed with Gerry's "positive work" in Spain.

Yawn.

Scofflaw

That was an extraordinary piece of thread derailment and trolling by FlutterinBantam, which I duly honour by giving him a week's rest from the forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

They may be in a weakened state, but you are hardly in the privy position of being able to fully map out their organisational strengths and weakenesses. I have no doubt that there are a substantial amount people ready to join the ranks of ETA. The threat from them will always exist - Bringing about a peace process is a positive move, and it didn't "have" to come from them. But it has and Sinn Féin has apparently influenced it. I see this as a positive move.

ETA has the same problem as many other terrorist organizations - when the seasoned leaders and members go to jail, new members may be willing to join, but they don't have the kind of operational capacity of the old hands. It's pretty obvious that ETA has been weakened significantly. It also helps that Spain's neighbors are being more aggressive about their countries being used as a safe haven. And what kind of peace process? There are already favorable parties and political institutions in place - the Basque Country today isn't what it was under Franco. The Basques have more rights today than Republicans got under the GFA, so I'm not sure what the end goal of any such "peace process" is supposed to be.

dlofnep wrote: »

It's funny that despite being one of the cornerstones of bringing peace to Ireland, all you have to say is that he's "PR Savvy". Time will be a friend of Gerry Adams. Without him - peace in Ireland would not be possible. That's the reality of the situation.

Adams IS PR savvy. I didn't say that to knock him. Out of all of the armed conflicts in the world, the PIRA and Sinn Fein were able to garner international attention to a tiny speck of a tiny island in the North Atlantic. The fact that the Basques want him on board is a testament to how good he is at this kind of stuff - they think he can do for their cause what he did for Republicans in the North, i.e. garner international sympathy and support for the cause.

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not about what he is going to get for them. That's for them to decide. But if he influences them to achieve their goals through a political framework - then that's clearly a positive thing.

That won't happen until Batasuna renounces violence. None of the other Basque parties want anything to do with ETA.

dlofnep wrote: »

Gerry Adams doesn't support ETA. Influencing them to drop their arms is hardly demonstrating "support" for their actions. Infact, it displays the opposite.

He wants them to drop their arms, but is also encouraging the government to recognize Batasuna, which has refused thus far to renounce violence.

But even without Batasuna, there are ample channels for Basques to press their claims through the political process via a number of legal, non-terror supporting nationalist parties (which Adams conveniently forgets to mention), and Spanish legal institutions actually have checks to keep them from trampling on nationalists' rights. The only thing left at this point is independence, and that is not going to happen. So what exactly is supposed to be negotiated?

southsiderosie

demonspawn wrote: »

I don't agree with their methods but I understand their motives. The Spanish government makes promise after promise and they keep breaking them every time. ETA are not looking for half the country of Spain. They want a tiny sliver of land in the north. The Spanish government refuse this for no reason whatsoever. The Basque region has historically been independent from both Spain and France, they should have their own state. Playing political games in unacceptable at this stage.

Let me ask you this, since you are making some pretty strong statements (and ones I might argue are based on a flawed reading of Spanish history and politics):

The Catalans have the same motives as the Basques (autonomy/independence). Why is violence a Basque problem?

What promises has the government broken to the Basques in democratic post-Franco Spain?

Under what circumstances is it permissible for a region of a country to secede?

What gives ETA the right to act in the name of all Basques - especially considering that many Basques vote for the PSOE and PP, neither of which support Basque independence (and who incidentally are running the Basque regional government today)?

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Catalans have the same motives as the Basques (autonomy/independence). Why is violence a Basque problem?

Well, Basques are subjected to routine state torture - and the Spanish Government interferes with their affairs and freedom of speech - like when they shut down a Basque language paper, claiming it had links to ETA - which was later shown to not be the case.

Perhaps they feel that politics will not allow them to achieve independence, given that Basque political figures are often locked up.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Under what circumstances is it permissible for a region of a country to secede?

If there is a clear mandate to do so.

southsiderosie wrote: »

What gives ETA the right to act in the name of all Basques - especially considering that many Basques vote for the PSOE and PP, neither of which support Basque independence (and who incidentally are running the Basque regional government today)?

They don't have that right. But then again, guerrilla movements are generally about doing what most people don't want to do. Most civilians would prefer the pencil to the sword (I also believe this) - But some genuinely don't believe it will enable them to achieve their goals.

I think you're conflating two separate issues. One being the "Why?", and the other being "Is it just?". The why can be easily answered. The "Is it just?" is subjective. I personally don't believe ETA is doing anything positive for the Basque community by recklessly killing civilians. I believe it is counter-productive to their political aspirations.

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

I personally don't believe ETA is doing anything positive for the Basque community by recklessly killing civilians. I believe it is counter-productive to their political aspirations.

It's rather interesting, and dare I say instructive, the way you phrase this statement. The murder of civilians is not objectively wrong, but rather is counter-productive to a cause. Can you state, clearly and unequivocally, that the deliberate targetting of civilians for murder is wrong?