Got to wondering today...

The Shane

... thought I'd throw it open to the board. Do you think people with a criminal past and a criminal present should be allowed in the door of anywhere teaching combat skills?

Anyone trying to make some money certainly has motivation to do so, it's hard to turn away anyone offering to pay you.

There are plenty of anecdotes with people leaving lives of crime because of the martial arts but prisons are also pretty full...

Let's confine it to relevant crimes, I don't care about shoplifters or anythin but anyone with a history of violent crime or serious public order offences along the lines of fighting, would you let them train?

Shane, The

chin_grin

I believe that anyone with ANY issues (anger management, superiority or other) shouldn't be allowed near a martial art.

I'm sorry to tar them all with the same brush, but I believe that it's too much of a danger to others involved.

Sid_Justice

Let's flesh this out a bit and make it more pragmatic.

Do you think Martial Arts club owners/coaches should seek garda vetting on potential clients? Is this feasible?

Or should they rely on word of mouth etc.?

I think this subject came up briefly before in a side thread about some gurrier fighting in MMA. I, for one, would be willing to give anyone a second chance but would be quick to disconnect from someone who was living it 'arge on the mean streets of Swords on the weekend.

I would like to think that the positive but hard training ethic of my club (and all mma clubs) would be enough to either put a thug off regular training or hopefully, change his attitude to thuggery. But I wouldn't want to be one of those martial arts guys that thinks they're a life coach/guru etc. and think doing a bit of karate can make you a honourable gentlemen.

chin_grin

On the basis is that you're teaching a very dangerous skill, one that could seriously injure an opponent.

I'm not saying that you've to "respect your honour" and "be humble" etc (well, to a point....not all Hollywooded up!). But you do need respect and self control. If you knew you could control yourself in a fight and you used this to actively get in to fights, then I wouldn't welcome that in a club environment.

Khannie

How would you know? I mean....none of you know whether or not I have a history of violent crime. It's not the kind of question you really ask people.

chin_grin

Khannie wrote: »

How would you know? I mean....none of you know whether or not I have a history of violent crime. It's not the kind of question you really ask people.

Do you have a history of violent crime? :pac:

True. To me it'd have to do with attitude and body language.

If it was a high energy/contact MA or even grappling (JJ) I'd see how the opponent would react in some light sparring. I'm not saying push them overboard! Just test.

It's like holding your hands out in an actual fight, when you feel your opponent continually "rise" up to you and push you know that they're not going to back down unless something drastic happens. Be it you strike, they strike. (Also strike and run!)

Also if the person was a complete sh*t talker, that would have alarm bells ringing.

yomchi

chin_grin wrote: »

It's like holding your hands out in an actual fight, when you feel your opponent continually "rise" up to you and push you know that they're not going to back down unless something drastic happens. Be it you strike, they strike. (Also strike and run!).

Somebody has done some fence work

I get local scrotes from time to time wanting to come and train. I know most of them anyway being from Cabra and I won't let them through the door. Usually anti-social types, joy riders, small time dealers wanting to learn usually the UC stuff as they hear we train in 'street fighting' which is bollix.

There's a group of them up around the local park who while sloshin' back flaggons they do be practicing their ground and pound on each other. I blame Barry

arybvtcw0eolkf

Personally I couldn't give a rats arse what someone does in the personal & private lives.

A known sex offender being the exception obviously.

But I know some very good people involved in Martial Arts with all sorts of criminal pasts - ain't a bit of it my business.

Pontificatus

Janelle Early Slipknot wrote: »

Personally I couldn't give a rats arse what someone does in the personal & private lives.

A known sex offender being the exception obviously.

But I know some very good people involved in Martial Arts with all sorts of criminal pasts - ain't a bit of it my business.

It all really boils down to where you draw the line. Sex offender bad/pursesnatcher good is a very simplistic and frankly stupid approach to take...BUT it only becomes relevant when you know what an individual does on a day to day basis and regardless of whether their skills are used to perpetuate crime and geneal trogladytiness.

Would you train with a known sex offender? Obviously not
Would you train with a known pursesnaatcher? I would wager your answer would be the same here.

chin_grin

Janelle Early Slipknot wrote: »

Personally I couldn't give a rats arse what someone does in the personal & private lives.

Of course, because it's their personal and private lives.

But in a group, trying to learn with these socially inept "people" is taking it from their lives to mine and ultimately disruptive. (Ok, I've no first hand experience of this. But it would deter from the experience!)

I wouldn't want to spar against someone if I knew they were involved in some dodgy dealings. Be it crime or just being an a$$hole!

EnjoyChoke

Let them train. Then beat the criminality out of them.

The Shane

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Let's flesh this out a bit and make it more pragmatic.

Do you think Martial Arts club owners/coaches should seek garda vetting on potential clients? Is this feasible?

Or should they rely on word of mouth etc.?

I'm not so concerned with the past, everyone makes mistakes and all that. In my experience though very few people change.

I'm referring more to the repeat offender who may be a nice guy down the club but who habitually goes out and gets in fights or is involved in assaults. That kind of thing will generally get back to you as a local of an area.

I suppose Garda vetting could be an option. Even sight of a form that says "Garda vetting form" might be enough to keep out the "wrong sort". Not sure of the atual feasibilty of it.

The thing is, depending on where you set up a club, these people may be your only business. Anyone going to take enough of a moral highground to turn away people at the door and see a club fail?

Shane, The

_oveless

Say there's a local scumbag who's regularly in court for anti social behaviour or is involved in the drug trade in some way, but he happens to be the best fighter in your gym, would any coach throw this guy out?

simon-king

Unless it has been changed recently, the Gardaí will not give 'clearance' for someone unless it is for the purpose of their profession eg somebody working directly with children...

The alternative would be for someone to request, under the Freedom of Information Act, any data that may be held on them on the criminal records data base, and present this as part of their application to a gym.

I think this would be really off-putting though for a lot of people, as it could be interpreted as an invasion of privacy. Speeding tickets, drink driving, throwing eggs at Tony Blair .. everything would be on it ..

I don't think that someone can consistently present as a being 'nice guy' (or girl), while their intention is to train in order to hurt people. That kind of personality type would eventually be found out ... and they would simply be given their marching orders....

Peetrik

I think training is in itself the cure for the types your describing.

If people get in fights regularly its usually because they are scared or bored or both.

Training enough to be effectively dangerous relieves the boredom, gives direction, builds self-confidence etc

My 2c

Dancor

If its in the past, leave it be. Im not the type of person to judge somebody else, but if they are still a bit agro in the present day and bring a bad name to a club and its members then chuck them out.

yomchi

Janelle Early Slipknot wrote: »

Personally I couldn't give a rats arse what someone does in the personal & private lives.

A known sex offender being the exception obviously.

But I know some very good people involved in Martial Arts with all sorts of criminal pasts - ain't a bit of it my business.

Criminal pasts as opposed to criminal presents is a bit different tbh. Having said that, there are certain pasts I wouldn't entertain in my place or in my life. Sin é

yomchi

_oveless wrote: »

Say there's a local scumbag who's regularly in court for anti social behaviour or is involved in the drug trade in some way, but he happens to be the best fighter in your gym, would any coach throw this guy out?

Yes. I'm a community activist. This guy could well be haunting your granny or selling drugs to your nephew. Let's not lose sight of the woods for the trees here.

Dyr

Hmm..for a warm up tonight I went over numerous ways to kill someone with a knife. We once had a guy who told us that he used his missus as a dummy to train that drill on...with one of these

:pac: So yeah, discretion in who you train with is important.

On the other hand I know guy's who have assault convictions that I'd train with in a heartbeat. They just came out the wrong side of the court's. I also know that the nastiest piece of work I ever trained with was a copper. So there aren't really any easy criteria to decide on who you train with or teach..except for your own judgement.

I started out training in Ballymun and the club used to get loads of bogeys coming in, they never lasted long because all that TMA stuff about bowing, kneeling and senseing did't sit well with being a hard case, so it had its uses after all :pac:

Dave Joyce

Say there's a local scumbag who's regularly in court for anti social behaviour or is involved in the drug trade in some way, but he happens to be the best fighter in your gym, would any coach throw this guy out?

I was in a situation SIMILAR to this very recently and threw the guy out without a moments hesitation.

I think training is in itself the cure for the types your describing.

If people get in fights regularly its usually because they are scared or bored or both.

Training enough to be effectively dangerous relieves the boredom, gives direction, builds self-confidence etc

Are you really serious with that rational?

However, we have recently introduced a questionaire to anyone who wishes to join either our Sayoc or Atienza classes. Not just because of the content of what we teach and that its weapons based but also to see if the individual is serious about wanting to train. Nothing worse than spending a lot of time on someone that discovers they don't have the dedication or interest to stick with it.

Peetrik

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Are you really serious with that rational?

For general assault/hooliganism, yes I am.

If it makes you feel better tho Im not involved with the running of any club and have absolutely no say in who is allowed or not allowed to train anywhere

Training 1 hr or even 2 hrs a week is only going to help someones self confidence, its not going to have any real effect on their ability to fight.
If they are a real nasty piece of work they wont be able to leave it outside the gym and will try to bully in sparring or some other reason to ban them without it having to be because of their standing with the law.

I think the dedication needed to train twice a day, 3+ days a week can only improve someones character, add structure to someones life and be a healthy outlet for aggressive energy or pent up frustration.
The natural migration toward healthier eating to aid training that occurs when someone starts to get serious about a sport usually results in less drinking and hanging out with the wrong people.

I think training can very much be a cure to antisocial behaviour.

Dave Joyce

For general assault/hooliganism, yes I am.

Oh my Jesus, if that's the case you've led a VERY sheltered life.

If people get in fights regularly its usually because they are scared or bored or both

You would make a great Psychologist for some scumbags out there if you honestly think any of these fuvkers are scared or bored and that is WHY they get into fights:rolleyes:

If they are a real nasty piece of work they wont be able to leave it outside the gym and will try to bully in sparring or some other reason to ban them without it having to be because of their standing with the law.

No offence but that's a crock of shi'te! I remember talking to a Psychologist a number of years ago and he told me that IF someone joined my club with the intention of revenge over someone, I would never be able to tell that they were bad news, he said he would have difficulty himself and that was HIS area of expertise.

Secondly, I remember reading a very brave article from an instructor in JJJ, who started the piece saying how he had this one student who was the ideal No 1 student ANY instructor would love to have and expanded a bit further on great this guy was and had been with him for years. To make a long story short, the "ideal" student turned out to be a serial rapist who had actually murdered a number of women in London in the 80's and there was a photo of the guy doing a standing RNC and the author explaining this was one of many techniques he had taught the guy. My point been, the author had ABSOLUTELY no idea, what kind of individual he was training and must have been devastated to learn what he was actually like.

I think training can very much be a cure to antisocial behaviour.

It possibly could but with a competent instructor and with MOST normal people.

Peetrik

I think we're talking about very different types of people here Dave. Assault and public order offenders not serial rapists or sociopaths.

Dave Joyce

I think we're talking about very different types of people here Dave. Assault and public order offenders not serial rapists or sociopaths.

On the contrary, I AM talking about those who commit assault and public order offences.

Opinicus

Was actually talking to my coaches about this the other day. He said that he was approached by a garda and asked

"You teach martial arts don't you?"
"No, I teach Judo" was his reply:cool:

He replied that way because he guessed that the garda was looking for someone, and sure enough that's what he wanted. Some fella had done damage in an assault and they wanted a word with his trainer to tell him to consider stop training him.

My other coach thinks that Judo gets away without having an awful lot of "messers" because they are more attracted to striking arts and anyone who sticks with Judo is practising it primarily as a sport.

Just wondering does anyone in BJJ think the same?
Also, have any trainers ever been approached by the Gardai and asked to stop training a fella?

_oveless

Opinicus wrote: »

Was actually talking to my coaches about this the other day. He said that he was approached by a garda and asked

"You teach martial arts don't you?"
"No, I teach Judo" was his reply:cool:

He replied that way because he guessed that the garda was looking for someone, and sure enough that's what he wanted. Some fella had done damage in an assault and they wanted a word with his trainer to tell him to consider stop training him.

Did he stop training him?

Opinicus

_oveless wrote: »

Did he stop training him?

He wasn't in our club. The guard had just heard that the fella had done some MA, he was just trying all of the local clubs.

bigdogbarking

I know personally two lads who would lets say be less than desirable company for most people, and although not directly involved with them, they are personal friends of mine as i've known them both for more than a decade.
Both have criminal convictions for assault, drugs and contraband and are well known to be still actively involved in criminal activity albeit to a lesser extent over the last few years.well more one of them than the other. They both tried to join my old Martial arts club over a year ago and were told that the club was not accepting new members even though that wasn't entirely true, the owner and head coach didn't want to involve them and the club together. After several attempts at trying to join, they gave up on that club.
Another club opened, now my present club, and they tried to join that too. The owner and coaches were well aware who these lads were and of their past and told them that they could not accept them as members.

I asked the owner, he's a good friend of mine, for his reasons and he stated that because he had a lot of kids and teens in the clubs and not to mention the adults that were training too, he didn't want them to be influenced by these fellas, also that he didn't think the parents of the younger students would appreciate their kids training in a club with these men. these kids are the future of the club and martial arts as a whole.
I see his point too. And agree with it.

But now one of the lads has been accepted into the club, cleaned up his act fairly well and is now well taken within the club. the other....well....:rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Just thinking more on this thread, and hand on heart I can honestly say that I've never seen anyone enter into martial arts who didn't take it on as a way of life for at least a while, and who wasn't a better person for it.

However, I'd still rule out a sex offender - I couldn't give a toss, I don't believe they're ever reformed.

Barry.Oglesby

Wasn't this discussed not long ago?

Anyway for my part:

You have committed a crime and been punished by the courts- so be it. You don't have a perfect record but if doing something like martial arts is a step towards changing the pattern of your life then I would be happy to be party to that so long as you were honest and weren't making an attempt to hide your record or nature of my crimes. Sex offences are different however.

You are currently involved in criminality- I don't want you in my gym.

Odysseus

Dave Joyce wrote: »

You would make a great Psychologist for some scumbags out there if you honestly think any of these fuvkers are scared or bored and that is WHY they get into fights:rolleyes:



No offence but that's a crock of shi'te! I remember talking to a Psychologist a number of years ago and he told me that IF someone joined my club with the intention of revenge over someone, I would never be able to tell that they were bad news, he said he would have difficulty himself and that was HIS area of expertise.

I haven't posted here in a good while but it's an interesting thread. I have worked with all types of criminals from minor to very severe. Unless the
person is a true psychopath, they have the same fears as everybody else. Often when people turn their lives around then only then realise how much fear and anxiety where present in their lives.

It's very subjective, whilst you may pick up on somebody with dis-social tendencies, in the revenge case you presented the chances of picking up on it are very low, as you said.