A new Ireland

KeithAFC

If a new Ireland was to happen, should the flag be scrapped and a new flag created?

Revolution9

A United Ireland should still use the tri-colour, as the tri-colour represents Nationalism (green) living in peace (white) with Unionism (orange).
After a dozen or so years of trying out this peace lark the hippies told us about, I've grown rather fond of it. I'd be offended if our flag was ever changed.

KeithAFC

Revolution9 wrote: »

A United Ireland should still use the tri-colour, as the tri-colour represents Nationalism (green) living in peace (white) with Unionism (orange).
After a dozen or so years of trying out this peace lark the hippies told us about, I've grown rather fond of it. I'd be offended if our flag was ever changed.

Unionisim would be pointless in a United Ireland. I think the flag should be changed if it did ever come about.

demonspawn

Yes please! And bring back the old Irish Naval Jack (that's what wiki calls it, I just call it the Irish flag). It's so much more attractive and defines our country much better in my opinion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Naval_Jack_of_Ireland.svg

I'd prefer if this country just forgot we ever had Nationalists and Unionists, and the tricolor is just a constant reminder of the bloody conflict we've been witness to (or victims of).

Edit: The Four Provinces flag could be used as a secondary flag, it's pretty cool too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg

Mahatma coat

Nevermind what sort of FLAG a new Ireland has, what sort of government do you envision??

demonspawn

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Nevermind what sort of FLAG a new Ireland has, what sort of government do you envision??

Former supermodels and action film stars. Ireland needs a Governator.

Darlughda

KeithAFC wrote: »

If a new Ireland was to happen, should the flag be scrapped and a new flag created?

Will you feck off with bs notions of national identity.
If a new Ireland were to happen all Dáil seater would be stripped of everything, including their seats.

Campaigning would be banned. No more parish pump politics, hereditary seats, scratch yer back and I'll show up at yer funeral type politics, irradicate the favour system

And there be your new Irealand

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Unionisim would be pointless in a United Ireland. I think the flag should be changed if it did ever come about.

Well I dont think Unionism would be pointless, no one has said that if Unionists dont like being in a UI if it happens they cant try to get out of it.

The tri colour dosent represent nationalism and unionism, it represents the old gaelic tradition(green) and the protestant(orange) tradition and peace between the two(white), Overall I cant think of a better symbol for a United Ireland. Although I can understand Unionist reservations because it has been seen as the symbol of just one side in the past.

Liam Byrne

Revolution9 wrote: »

A United Ireland....

I thought the OP was just talking about a new, uncorrupt, fair and equal Ireland ?

mikemac

The tricolour is the perfect flag, green, white and orange.
No need for a new flag
Two parts of Ireland represented and white between them for peace.

Though I do hear football commentators and pundits on radio shows being proud of the "green, white and gold"
Where are they getting gold from?
Drives me mad!

Martin 2

KeithAFC wrote: »

If a new Ireland was to happen, should the flag be scrapped and a new flag created?

It depends on what you mean by a new Ireland but if you mean a united Ireland then yes it would be a good idea to change the flag. Rightly or wrongly many Northern Irish people associate the tricolour with terrorism and with a state that claimed jurisdiction over NI until quite recently. It doesn't matter that the flag includes the orange tradition, the negative associations are too deep and if they were to give up their flag then a new government should be prepared to consider a new flag.

On a personal note, New Ireland or not, I'd like the flag to be changed, to me it doesn't stand out amongst other flags and I don't see why a flag can't be both meaningful and attractive. Anyway we can forget about any changes until the state coffers are back in a healthy state.

dvpower

Martin 2 wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by a new Ireland but if you mean a united Ireland then yes it would be a good idea to change the flag. Rightly or wrongly many Northern Irish people associate the tricolour with terrorism and with a state that claimed jurisdiction over NI until quite recently. It doesn't matter that the flag includes the orange tradition, the negative associations are too deep and if they were to give up their flag then a new government should be prepared to consider a new flag.

If the OP means a united Ireland, then we can assume that the negative associations would already have been overcome by the time we got to that point.

Lockstep

demonspawn wrote: »

Yes please! And bring back the old Irish Naval Jack (that's what wiki calls it, I just call it the Irish flag). It's so much more attractive and defines our country much better in my opinion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Naval_Jack_of_Ireland.svg

I'd prefer if this country just forgot we ever had Nationalists and Unionists, and the tricolor is just a constant reminder of the bloody conflict we've been witness to (or victims of).

Edit: The Four Provinces flag could be used as a secondary flag, it's pretty cool too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg

Hear hear.

Also, it's the flag of the United Irishmen (Protestant leaders like Wolfe Tone who organised with Catholic groups (Like the Defenders) to demand equality.

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

If a new Ireland was to happen, should the flag be scrapped and a new flag created?

You like to walk around and poke things with sticks, don't you?

Rabble Rabble

Darlughda wrote: »

Will you feck off with bs notions of national identity.
If a new Ireland were to happen all Dáil seater would be stripped of everything, including their seats.

Campaigning would be banned. No more parish pump politics, hereditary seats, scratch yer back and I'll show up at yer funeral type politics, irradicate the favour system

And there be your new Irealand

seems like a benevolent dictatorship decided by you. Banning campaigning in a democracy. I say no.

KeithAFC

Nodin wrote: »

You like to walk around and poke things with sticks, don't you?

Just a discussion. Its always been an interesting topic if a new Ireland does happen.

Martin 2

dvpower wrote: »

If the OP means a united Ireland, then we can assume that the negative associations would already have been overcome by the time we got to that point.

I think we can also assume that for a large section of those of unionist background the tricolour will always have negative associations even in a UI where most other issues have been resolved. A new flag should not have those associations and would represent a new beginning for all sides. An unwillingness to change the flag is an impediment, however small, to a UI, or at least to a UI which would be acceptable to all sides.

bmaxi

Martin 2 wrote: »

I think we can also assume that for a large section of those of unionist background the tricolour will always have negative associations even in a UI where most other issues have been resolved. A new flag should not have those associations and would represent a new beginning for all sides. An unwillingness to change the flag is an impediment, however small, to a UI, or at least to a UI which would be acceptable to all sides.

I agree. I would imagine there were plenty in the Republic, who were not too happy with how the flag was used either.

deise go deo

Martin 2 wrote: »

I think we can also assume that for a large section of those of unionist background the tricolour will always have negative associations even in a UI where most other issues have been resolved. A new flag should not have those associations and would represent a new beginning for all sides. An unwillingness to change the flag is an impediment, however small, to a UI, or at least to a UI which would be acceptable to all sides.

Well in the event of a UI compromises would have to be made on both sides. I dont really see that the flag would be a major Issue but if it was then something would have to be done, I dont really mind what it is as long as it dosent have a union jack in the corner.:D

junder

I would certainly not accept the tricolour as my national flag ever

Bottle_of_Smoke

Green flag with a red hand on it?

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

The tri colour dosent represent nationalism and unionism, it represents the old gaelic tradition(green) and the protestant(orange) tradition and peace between the two(white), Overall I cant think of a better symbol for a United Ireland. Although I can understand Unionist reservations because it has been seen as the symbol of just one side in the past.

That's not official by the way. I've heard some people referring to the white representing the dissenter.

Liam Byrne

bmaxi wrote: »

I agree. I would imagine there were plenty in the Republic, who were not too happy with how the flag was used either.

I would imagine there were plenty in the Republic who were not too happy with how the flag was abused either.

lugha

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That's not official by the way. I've heard some people referring to the white representing the dissenter.

Have never heard that but there are a number of alternative explanations of the flag, though the most popular understanding is the peace between the two traditions idea.
Of course the flag is now an icon of republicanism and as such is tainted, so there is no prospect of it being the flag of a united Ireland.

How about an image of a toilet bowl, with the orange and green joined together in unity and harmony, disappearing beneath the surface? :pac:

Ren2k7

deise go deo wrote: »

Well in the event of a UI compromises would have to be made on both sides. I dont really see that the flag would be a major Issue but if it was then something would have to be done, I dont really mind what it is as long as it dosent have a union jack in the corner.:D

Ah crap. And there was me spending the whole of 5 minutes on Photoshop making a possible new flag in a United Ireland


The rationale behind this design is that in any future United Ireland the new state would be a member of the commonwealth so this design would be paying respect to both sides of the community.

Cú Giobach

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Ah crap. And there was me spending the whole of 5 minutes on Photoshop making a possible new flag in a United Ireland



The rationale behind this design is that in any future United Ireland the new state would be a member of the commonwealth so this design would be paying respect to both sides of the community.

Arrrgh!!!! EYE BLEACH...now!!!

Is that the "west Brit" flag. (Leinster & Union flag)

Ren2k7

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Arrrgh!!!! EYE BLEACH...now!!!

LOL. It's only a suggestion. It's good enough for the Aussies and New Zealanders so it could work here. :pac:

Revolution9

Just like that lad a few comments ago said he'd never accept the tri-colour, many would never accept the buther's apron, erm I mean the Union Jack, on our national flag.

Revolution9

KeithAFC wrote: »

Unionisim would be pointless in a United Ireland. I think the flag should be changed if it did ever come about.

It really wouldn't. If Ireland was ever united, the Unionists wouldnt just go away. They would fight tooth and nail and this would probably usher in a new era of "trouble" for the island.

If we were a united nation, our first challenge would be getting the unionists to accept it. What better way to start than keeping the tri-colour, a flag which represents unionists living in peace with nationalists?

Ren2k7

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Is that the "west Brit" flag. (Leinster & Union flag)

Could prove to be a popular flag around the west brit enclaves of Ballsbridge and Rathmines and at RDS events. :P

junder

Revolution9 wrote: »

Just like that lad a few comments ago said he'd never accept the tri-colour, many would never accept the buther's apron, erm I mean the Union Jack, on our national flag.

Nobody is asking you to

Revolution9

junder wrote: »

Nobody is asking you to

The creative person who designed his new flag, with a union jack and a harp on it, is suggesting that could be a flag for a united Ireland. So, in a sense, he is asking would we accept that as our flag. So yeah, I am being asked. As are all who view this thread. I'm telling him I wouldn't accept it.

Lighten up lad, Ireland isn't united just yet!

me_right_one

Wasn't the original flag just the Leinster flag, like in the year 1000 or so? Green background with gold harp. I think that should be the flag for a perfect Ireland. No corruption, no division, no unionism. Just us on our own island.

Ren2k7

Doesn't sound like there's much hope for a United Ireland if folk can't even agree on a new flag.

Brussels Sprout

Ren2k7 wrote: »

LOL. It's only a suggestion. It's good enough for the Aussies and New Zealanders so it could work here. :pac:

New Zealander's are having serious discussions about changing their flag and becoming a republic in the not too distant future. A lot of the population are questioning why they should retain links to a country on the other side of the world that they have little or no dealings with anymore. The aussies were talking about a referendum on becoming a republic in 2020 a few years ago.

As for us. We could always use the flag of St. patrick.



He's more associated with the republic but the flag itself more resembles the existing northern flag. Maybe if we could lob a few shamrocks and harps onto it

Iwasfrozen

demonspawn wrote: »

Yes please! And bring back the old Irish Naval Jack (that's what wiki calls it, I just call it the Irish flag). It's so much more attractive and defines our country much better in my opinion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Naval_Jack_of_Ireland.svg

I'd prefer if this country just forgot we ever had Nationalists and Unionists, and the tricolor is just a constant reminder of the bloody conflict we've been witness to (or victims of).

Edit: The Four Provinces flag could be used as a secondary flag, it's pretty cool too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg

That's the flag of Leinster, hardly suitable for the whole country.

deise go deo

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The rationale behind this design is that in any future United Ireland the new state would be a member of the commonwealth so this design would be paying respect to both sides of the community.

Why should a United Ireland be part of the commonwealth. I very much doubt the Republic would be willing to give up its soverinity in that way. I also dont see much reason for Ireland to join the commonwealth, I dont think there is any such clause in the GFA is there?

deise go deo

junder wrote: »

I would certainly not accept the tricolour as my national flag ever

So what would you like the flag to be in the event of a United Ireland?

Why is the Tri Colour so unacceptable to you?

KeithAFC

Revolution9 wrote: »

It really wouldn't. If Ireland was ever united, the Unionists wouldnt just go away. They would fight tooth and nail and this would probably usher in a new era of "trouble" for the island.

If we were a united nation, our first challenge would be getting the unionists to accept it. What better way to start than keeping the tri-colour, a flag which represents unionists living in peace with nationalists?

Unionsim is a vow to the crown. When people signed up to the UVF, they took the vow to the crown and the Union.

KeithAFC

Perhaps the North really is its own country and if it has to leave Britain and the people don't want a republic, not much else to do but to make Ulster an independent country. I know there would be trouble with that but its just theory..

Besides, Ulster men have a different mentality from people down south.

Ren2k7

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should a United Ireland be part of the commonwealth. I very much doubt the Republic would be willing to give up its soverinity in that way. I also dont see much reason for Ireland to join the commonwealth, I dont think there is any such clause in the GFA is there?

Commonwealth members are fully sovereign countries with all the powers that go with it. In the Commonwealth the state would swap one head of state (in our case, the president) with another (the British monarch). Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc are members of the Commonwealth but enjoy full sovereignty over all matters pertaining to themselves.

In a hypothetical United Ireland, something like 20% of the population would be of the Unionist/British tradition so having Ireland in the Commonwealth would be something that they would want and would go a long way in healing communal divisions. True, under the GFA the republic or any possible United Ireland is not obliged to join the Commonwealth but I think it should be seriously considered when the time for unity approaches. It's all about compromise and respect for each others culture and traditions.

TBH, I think Ireland leaving the Commonwealth in 1949 was a mistake that further alienated our Unionist cousins and pushed them further away from us in the South.

junder

deise go deo wrote: »

So what would you like the flag to be in the event of a United Ireland?

Why is the Tri Colour so unacceptable to you?

For a start it has been draped over to many ira coffins.

goose2005

me_right_one wrote: »

Wasn't the original flag just the Leinster flag, like in the year 1000 or so? Green background with gold harp. I think that should be the flag for a perfect Ireland. No corruption, no division, no unionism. Just us on our own island.

No, the first flag was the Munster flag (blue with three gold crowns) with a white border.

Brussels Sprout

Ren2k7 wrote: »

In the Commonwealth the state would swap one head of state (in our case, the president) with another (the British monarch).

I can tell you categorically that there is no way on earth that 26 counties will be under the British monarchy again. And I think you know that and are just looking to rise people.

Ren2k7

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can tell you categorically that there is no way on earth that 26 counties will be under the British monarchy again. And I think you know that and are just looking to rise people.

I'm not so sure about that. I believe the Irish people to be smart, intelligent people who would understand the concept of COMPROMISE if it meant bringing about a united ireland for EVERYONE on the island, and not just for the republican sinn fein lot.

I expect you to provide evidence that what i'm suggesting is only trying to get a rise out of people as you've so eloquently put it. If not then I expect a retraction of your inflammatory statement.

Brussels Sprout

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I expect you to provide evidence that what i'm suggesting is only trying to get a rise out of people as you've so eloquently put it. If not then I expect a retraction of your inflammatory statement.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can tell you categorically that there is no way on earth that 26 counties will be under the British monarchy again. And I think you know that and are just looking to rise people.

Now, had I said "you are trying to rise people" then you might have a case but I would never have said that since I can't prove your intentions.

T runner

KeithAFC wrote: »

Perhaps the North really is its own country and if it has to leave Britain and the people don't want a republic, not much else to do but to make Ulster an independent country. I know there would be trouble with that but its just theory..

Besides, Ulster men have a different mentality from people down south.

Some Ulstermen may have a different mentality. If you mean Ulstermen as (protestant men from Ulster) then you are a minority now (in terms of Ulster not NI).

I wouldnt imagine youd speak fror Ulstermen who count themselves as Irish also. There is no great division between the mentalities of Ulstermen and other Irish or between different types of Ulstermen. For more in commonality than diferentials i would say.

Ren2k7

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Now, had I said "you are trying to rise people" then you might have a case but I would never have said that since I can't prove your intentions.

The topic of ireland rejoining the commonwealth is a serious subject in ireland and has been discussed at various times by many of the political parties such as fine gael for one.

I'd rather you didn't assume i'm trying to stir s**t up. That's called trolling and i'm no troll thank you.

Brussels Sprout

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The topic of ireland rejoining the commonwealth is a serious subject in ireland and has been discussed at various times by many of the political parties such as fine gael for one.

link please

Iwasfrozen

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can tell you categorically that there is no way on earth that 26 counties will be under the British monarchy again. And I think you know that and are just looking to rise people.

Why not? If it brought peace to the country, as well as re-unification, why not have the Queen as head of state? There was a thread in here not so long ago abotu abolishing the office of President to save money. Why not kill two birds with the one stone?

Brussels Sprout

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The topic of ireland rejoining the commonwealth is a serious subject in ireland and has been discussed at various times by many of the political parties such as fine gael for one.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why not? If it brought peace to the country, as well as re-unification, why not have the Queen as head of state? There was a thread in here not so long ago abotu abolishing the office of President to save money. Why not kill two birds with the one stone?

Ok Ok this just sounds totally bizarre to me. However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you aren't playing devil's advocate. I really think you're both in the minority though and have started a thread to see what other people think.