Garda Witness

Happy Monday

Can a Garda witness get you convicted of a motor offence?

Surely there has to be another form of evidence?

Like speed camera printouts, member of the public and what have you.

Was speeding a little on the motorway and this garda talked to me about careless driving and not just a couple of penalty points.

If this is the case can a garda get anyone convicted of anything?

Bosco boy

Are you innocent? Did the Garda make up the whole thing? Or are you just peed off because you got caught and may have to pay the penalty, a single Gardas evidence can often be sufficent in cases like this. If you didn't do it you should be able to argue your case.

Happy Monday

I was driving over 120 kph - yes!
But he threw in the careless driving piece for good measure.
Don't fancy having the expense and hassle of going to court over this.
Surely the DPP has to ask the garda to produce his evidence before proceeeding any further.

me_right_one

I'd say he was just trying to frighten you. They always say stuff like that.

kwalshe

guess it wont be a happy monday after all, jesus h christ, why cant people just obey some of our traffic laws. I'm glad he did you for that aswell, maybe next time you'll do the speed limit.

Saruman

If you were driving on one of the more recent motorways that have a design speed of up to 160kph then you can argue a case against dangerous driving but the speeding you will have to take.

How fast were you going? Is it just a case the garda matched your speed in his own car and then pulled you over? If so, unless you were doing almost 130kph then you may not have even been speeding as car speedos are set higher than the reality. If you are going 120kph on the dot in your car, you are actually doing closer to 116kph.

If you were way over you cant argue against the speed.

Unless you were also tailgating or weaving, undertaking etc in which case a dangerous driving charge is warranted but it cant be withheld just because you were exceeding the speed limit on the safest type of road there is.

Oh and this is just my own 2c, don't think it has any legal implications.

cushtac

Happy Monday wrote: »

I was driving over 120 kph - yes!
But he threw in the careless driving piece for good measure.
Don't fancy having the expense and hassle of going to court over this.
Surely the DPP has to ask the garda to produce his evidence before proceeeding any further.

Careless driving is dealt with by summons, so the DPP has no input into it. The offender is summonsed to court and prosecuted by the Garda in question. The Garda's evidence given in court is sufficient to allow him to prosecute the case, it's up to the Judge to decide to accept it or not.

Happy Monday

He didn't read out any caution - you know, you have the right to remain silent etc - and he didn't give any name etc.

Just wondering why these guys can do this.

I suppose I'll just have to wait to see if a summons is issued or not.

Saruman

Happy Monday wrote: »

He didn't read out any caution - you know, you have the right to remain silent etc - and he didn't give any name etc.

They don't have to give you their name unless you ask for it.

Happy Monday

Saruman wrote: »

They don't have to give you their name unless you ask for it.

Which I did of course and he refused.
Not reading the caution is significant as well.
Just didn't like the tone of his delivery.
Maybe he was just putting the skids underneath me.

Bosco boy

Happy Monday wrote: »

He didn't read out any caution - you know, you have the right to remain silent etc - and he didn't give any name etc.

Just wondering why these guys can do this.

I suppose I'll just have to wait to see if a summons is issued or not.

You were stopped by the police who's job it is to stop people breaking the law, that's why they can do it, are you suggesting they don't bother police the roads, the offence you were stopped for is a minor road traffic offence and the caution is not necessary, the careless driving he refers to is probally sec 51a which is driving without due care and attention, there's a ticket for it with two penalty points, you can only get two points for this incident but could get two tickets, speeding and 51a and both fines, most gaurds will issue the one ticket, but I have seen people with bad attitudes get the two tickets!!

cushtac

Happy Monday wrote: »

Not reading the caution is significant as well.

Unless the Garda is going to give evidence of you admitting to him that you broke the speed limit or drove carelessly, its really not.

me_right_one

I can never understand why some guards behave the way they do, as if you personally did something to them. Can any guards on here shed some light on this, do they brainwash people in Templemore into thinking that you are personally responsible for enforcing the law? Its especially prevalent in any young guards I've met, they seem to have a built-in chip on their shoulder about the world-at-large. The film Police Academy comes to mind.

Happy Monday

Bosco boy wrote: »

You were stopped by the police who's job it is to stop people breaking the law, that's why they can do it, are you suggesting they don't bother police the roads, the offence you were stopped for is a minor road traffic offence and the caution is not necessary, the careless driving he refers to is probally sec 51a which is driving without due care and attention, there's a ticket for it with two penalty points, you can only get two points for this incident but could get two tickets, speeding and 51a and both fines, most gaurds will issue the one ticket, but I have seen people with bad attitudes get the two tickets!!

You must be a member of the force with all of that knowledge.
The caution is necessary if he intends to pursue the matter in the district court. It's just irritating that a guard can trouble drivers and issue threats ignorantly and have the law on their side.

cushtac

Happy Monday wrote: »

The caution is necessary if he intends to pursue the matter in the district court.

In this case it's not, unless he's going to give evidence of something you said. All the Garda need do is give evidence of the day, date, time & place of the alleged offence; the nature of the driving; the vehicle involved and the identity of the driver.

Happy Monday wrote: »

It's just irritating that a guard can trouble drivers and issue threats ignorantly and have the law on their side.

It's also irritating when people break the law and then complain about being brought to account for their actions.

Happy Monday

cushtac wrote: »

It's also irritating when people break the law and then complain about being brought to account for their actions.

I have no problem with a speeding ticket and 2 penalty points.
But the rest is hard to stomach.
Particularly in light of the many people in the Dail, Fas, the banks etc. who break the law and are never stopped and threatened with court by overly aggressive law men.

cushtac

Happy Monday wrote: »

I have no problem with a speeding ticket and 2 penalty points.
But the rest is hard to stomach.
Particularly in light of the many people in the Dail, Fas, the banks etc. who break the law and are never stopped and threatened with court by overly aggressive law men.

If you've a problem with the manner of the Garda you can make a complaint about it, but complaining about getting caught breaking the law when you think others are getting off is juvenile.

MagicSean

Happy Monday wrote: »

I was driving over 120 kph - yes!
But he threw in the careless driving piece for good measure.
Don't fancy having the expense and hassle of going to court over this.
Surely the DPP has to ask the garda to produce his evidence before proceeeding any further.

The Garda statement is all the evidence needed. This is how the majority of traffic offences are prosecuted. Are you suggesting that if you were caught on a mobile phone the garda should have to produce witnesses or cctv? Wouldn't be much road traffic laws enforced if that were the case.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Which I did of course and he refused.
Not reading the caution is significant as well.
Just didn't like the tone of his delivery.
Maybe he was just putting the skids underneath me.

The caution has no significance unless he plans to introduce your words as evidence.

me_right_one wrote: »

I can never understand why some guards behave the way they do, as if you personally did something to them. Can any guards on here shed some light on this, do they brainwash people in Templemore into thinking that you are personally responsible for enforcing the law? Its especially prevalent in any young guards I've met, they seem to have a built-in chip on their shoulder about the world-at-large. The film Police Academy comes to mind.

For all you know he could have been at a serious or fatal accident recently and has decided to do his own part by coming down hard on the kind of behaviour which causes them.

me_right_one wrote: »

thinking that you are personally responsible for enforcing the law?

I don't understand this point. Is this not the job of a Garda?

Happy Monday wrote: »

You must be a member of the force with all of that knowledge.
The caution is necessary if he intends to pursue the matter in the district court. It's just irritating that a guard can trouble drivers and issue threats ignorantly and have the law on their side.

If you are summonsed you need to consult a solicitor as you show little to no knowledge of the law beyond what you might have heard from someone in a pub. I am sorry that you feel that the Gardaí are troubling you by enforcing road traffic law. Perhaps you can request an exemption from the road traffic acts from the minister? Be sure to remind him that you pay his wages and there is more serious crime out there.

Happy Monday

k_mac wrote: »

If you are summonsed you need to consult a solicitor as you show little to no knowledge of the law beyond what you might have heard from someone in a pub. I am sorry that you feel that the Gardaí are troubling you by enforcing road traffic law. Perhaps you can request an exemption from the road traffic acts from the minister? Be sure to remind him that you pay his wages and there is more serious crime out there.

Have studied law my friend. This is why I am amazed that uncorrobated evidence is enough to secure a conviction. If a garda's neighbour upsets him can he bring him to court on any charge? Yes, it would appear.

Be sure to remember the McBrearty family when talking about the bona fides of the men in blue out there.

cushtac

Happy Monday wrote: »

Have studied law my friend. This is why I am amazed that uncorrobated evidence is enough to secure a conviction. If a garda's neighbour upsets him can he bring him to court on any charge? Yes, it would appear.

You must have a low opinion of judges if you think they're convicting people merely on the word of Gardaí and not considering the facts for themselves.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Be sure to remember the McBrearty family when talking about the bona fides of the men in blue out there.

If you think you've been fitted up or prosecuted in the wrong go to GSOC, otherwise mentioning such incidents just reeks of desperation.

Happy Monday

cushtac wrote: »

You must have a low opinion of judges if you think they're convicting people merely on the word of Gardaí and not considering the facts for themselves.

Not of judges but of certain policemen.
Now let me refer to a clip released today of a policeman in the UK.
I have attached it below.
Could he have gone to court and insisted the suspect was violent if the cameras had not been present?
I am thankful that people like you are not judges.
And you talk of the law. :eek::pac:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-11190561

Princess Zelda

I am confused
Did you come in here for legal advice or to Garda bash?

Happy Monday

Princess Zelda wrote: »

I am confused
Did you come in here for legal advice or to Garda bash?

Legal advice Princess Zelda legal advice.

detective

Happy Monday, if you feel you were mistreated by a member of the Garda Siochana then make a complaint to the GSOC.

In certain police forces in the USA Police Officers have to turn on a microphone on every traffic stop. I really would wish this happened here. It would cut complaints down in my opinion. I believe that when Pearse Street Garda station installed cameras in all custody areas complaints went down by a staggering figure (80% was quoted to me).

I also wish there was ramifications to making a false complaint. I have received 8 complaints in my time; all of which I was found to have no case to answer.

Happy Monday

detective wrote: »

Happy Monday, if you feel you were mistreated by a member of the Garda Siochana then make a complaint to the GSOC.

He wasn't abusive or violent in any real way.
It's just that he spooked me a bit with talk of district courts and careless driving.
That can carry a court appearance, 5 points and a large fine.
What a mortgage holder with in negative equity can do without.
They he wouldn't give me his name and now I don't know where I stand.
I was speeding but if the court rely on his word over mine - as he indicated they would - this is not good.
I am happy to take 2 points and pay EUR80 but not the rest.

detective

Unfortunately district courts are where summary cases are heard so if you are summonsed for careless driving then you'll have to appear there. In relation to him not giving you his name you have stated earlier that you had asked for his name. Gardai are supposed to be identifiable. If you asked him to identify himself he should have provided you with some way distinguishing himself from other Gardai - name, station, reg number of shoulder number etc.

In relation to the Careless driving then speeding is not enough to substantiate such a charge unless you were travelling at a very high speed. One poster here mentioned 160kmph would be okay for a motorway. I would disagree with this. You have stated that you were travelling in excess of 120kmph - how much in excess is what you have to ask yourself? If you were travelling well in excess you could very well be facing a careless driving charge. if you weren't travelling well in excess then were there other factors such as lane changing, no indications, driving on hard shoulder. Every case is different.

Princess Zelda

I would wait until you get the fcps in the post to figure out the lay of the last. It may be the case that you also get a fine in relation to driving without reasonable consideration, which would not need a court appearance (unless you wished to appeal it).

MagicSean

Happy Monday wrote: »

Legal advice Princess Zelda legal advice.

It seems you came here for a bit of a rant. If you are in the legal profession I don't see why you are so shocked that someone can be convicted on the word of a garda. Some people are convicted for assault on the word of an injured person. Most public order cases are based on the word of a garda. Even a charge for simple posession of drugs hangs on the court believing the garda over a person who might claim it is planted. You can keep pointing out high profile incidents were the police were wrong but for every corrupt/bad garda you point out I can show you hundreds more who are beyond reproach.

Bosco boy

Happy Monday wrote: »

You must be a member of the force with all of that knowledge.
The caution is necessary if he intends to pursue the matter in the district court. It's just irritating that a guard can trouble drivers and issue threats ignorantly and have the law on their side.

only if he/she is giving evidence of you making an admission! the caution can be administered even after an admission has been made (Judges rules). yes i am a member of the force and it amazes me the attitude of some people who blatently feel they can break the law and when someone checks on them they lie through their teeth, deny it, look for loopholes and cry foul, there are 14,000 gaurds and you will get some bad eggs in any organisation of that size but they dont stop you for nothing and by you own admission you were speeding, big deal move on.

Bosco boy

me_right_one wrote: »

I can never understand why some guards behave the way they do, as if you personally did something to them. Can any guards on here shed some light on this, do they brainwash people in Templemore into thinking that you are personally responsible for enforcing the law? Its especially prevalent in any young guards I've met, they seem to have a built-in chip on their shoulder about the world-at-large. The film Police Academy comes to mind.

Maybe it comes from dealing with so many ignorant people on a daily basis who feel the law should not apply to them and only to those who offend them, The majority of people who gardai deal with are nice people but off side and in many cases discretion is used especially when they are polite to the garda. I personally always found it difficult to give tickets to genuine people who apoligised and acknowleged the offence and in many cases they got cautions if appropiate, but if a motorist had a bad attitude and was blatently lying they got all of what was due and I have to say often with great personal satisfaction (to me!).

Reloc8

me_right_one wrote: »

I can never understand why some guards behave the way they do, as if you personally did something to them. Can any guards on here shed some light on this, do they brainwash people in Templemore into thinking that you are personally responsible for enforcing the law? Its especially prevalent in any young guards I've met, they seem to have a built-in chip on their shoulder about the world-at-large. The film Police Academy comes to mind.

It's almost the same as the way that they brainwash doctors to cure sick people, stand up comedians to make us laugh and bus drivers to drive buses.

When will people learn to stop taking personal responsibility for doing their job *sigh*