Anti-Semitism - what exactly is it?

Seesee

How would you define anti-Semitism? I read in today's IT that the EU Trade chief was accused of making anti-Semitic (?) remarks: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0903/breaking52.html
But from my reading he's just saying that there is a large and powerful Jewish group in US politics that should not be underestimated. If you substituted the word Irish for the word Jewish, would this make it an anti-Irish comment? I don't think so but I'm wondering what others think. Does this guy De Gucht have previous?
Seesee

LookBehindYou

It proves his point that there is a powerful jewish group.

Gone are the days when Black was black and white was white.

Rebelheart

Seesee wrote: »

Anti-Semitism - what exactly is it?

Anything which is used in a criticism of the Israeli state?

....

Revolution9

Prejudice against Das Juden?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

joolsveer

It is a prejudice against Arabs and Hebrews no matter what their religion is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
This seems to include the Maltese.

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Akkadian, Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Phoenician, Tigre and Tigrinya among others.

As language studies are interwoven with cultural studies, the term also came to describe the extended cultures and ethnicities, as well as the history of these varied peoples as associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution.

paky

its the hatred of the jews and their ideology

go to israel and spend some time there and then you will see why anti semitism is so strong.

timespast

Anti semitic = anti Jewish

Anti Zionist is another thing altogether.......Ive mentioned to Americans I'd class myself as Anti Zionist and they are horrified quite often.

The idea of a Jewish homeland is as ridiculous as a Unionist homeland in the North....... ok I wont go there.

OhNoYouDidn't

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I slightly disagree. Traditional anti-semitism is different from racism or sexism in the sense that they are a belief in the inferiority of the other sex or different races, yet anti-semitism has always been that the Jews were more devious, ran the banks etc. Its a belief that they as a race are manipulating and run the world behind the scenes.

I would agree that while Mr De Gucht's comments were crude and unhelpful, they aren't anti-semetic in any real sense.

Glassheart

paky wrote: »

its the hatred of the jews and their ideology

go to israel and spend some time there and then you will see why anti semitism is so strong.

Thats harsh.
Anti Semitism has been around a lot longer than Israel.Do think it was justified before 1948?

Nodin

paky wrote: »

its the hatred of the jews and their ideology

I wasn't aware that "the jews" subscribed to a single set of beliefs. Would you care to enlighten us?

paky

Glassheart wrote: »

Thats harsh.
Anti Semitism has been around a lot longer than Israel.Do think it was justified before 1948?

to be honest its not. no other religion has received the level of persecution the jews have. the jews themselves have created that hate. there religion/ideology is warped. they see themselves as superior to other people and religions.

dont get me wrong, i have jewish friends but there is something seriously wrong with how they are perceived by the rest of the world and they themselves are to blame for it.

galwayrush

paky wrote: »

to be honest its not. no other religion has received the level of persecution the jews have. the jews themselves have created that hate. there religion/ideology is warped. they see themselves as superior to other people and religions.

dont get me wrong, i have jewish friends but there is something seriously wrong with how they are perceived by the rest of the world and they themselves are to blame for it.

Sounds like every other religion to me.:rolleyes:

Nodin

paky wrote: »

to be honest its not. no other religion has received the level of persecution the jews have. the jews themselves have created that hate. there religion/ideology is warped. .

I think thats the kind of thing the OP was asking about.

How is their "religion/Ideology" warped, exactly?

Do all jews automatically sign up to whatever it is?

paky wrote: »

they see themselves as superior to other people and religions..

All of them do?

paky wrote: »

dont get me wrong, i have jewish friends
..

O Absolutely, yeah...

paky wrote: »

but there is something seriously wrong with how they are perceived by the rest of the world and they themselves are to blame for it.

...fascinating.

Jeboa Safari

I wouldn't consider them comments anti-semitic

Glassheart

paky wrote: »

to be honest its not. no other religion has received the level of persecution the jews have. the jews themselves have created that hate.

:eek:

paky wrote: »

there religion/ideology is warped. they see themselves as superior to other people and religions.

That sounds awfully familiar to be honest...

paky wrote: »

dont get me wrong, i have jewish friends...

I find this strange considering your position.Are they Irish or Israeli Jews?

paky wrote: »

but there is something seriously wrong with how they are perceived by the rest of the world and they themselves are to blame for it

Pure b0llocks.I can understand someones frustration with the Israelis but this rabid antisemitism has been around for thousands of years fuelled by ludicrous propaganda such as the Protocols of Zion.How are they to blame for that kind of nonsense?

death wish

Glassheart wrote: »

:eek:



That sounds awfully familiar to be honest...



I find this strange considering your position.Are they Irish or Israeli Jews?



Pure b0llocks.I can understand someones frustration with the Israelis but this rabid antisemitism has been around for thousands of years fuelled by ludicrous propaganda such as the Protocols of Zion.How are they to blame for that kind of nonsense?

some stereotypes are their for a reason though.

for instance irish people dont have a drinking problem but outsiders would think we do.

if you were an outsider amongst the jews you would think they hada serious problem with money, power and morals.

Glassheart

death wish wrote: »

some stereotypes are their for a reason though.

for instance irish people dont have a drinking problem but outsiders would think we do.

I wasn't talking talking about stereotypes.I was talking about malicious propaganda.
Hitler didn't achieve his goals by convincing his flock that Jewish people had big noses.

Brussels Sprout

death wish wrote: »

some stereotypes are their for a reason though.

for instance irish people dont have a drinking problem but outsiders would think we do.

I would say Irish people have a massive drinking problem.

Glassheart wrote: »

I wasn't talking talking about stereotypes.I was talking about malicious propaganda.
Hitler didn't achieve his goals by convincing his flock that Jewish people had big noses.

I'm fairly sure he used lots of stereotypes to portray the Jews negatively (along with malicious propganda).

fontanalis

Didn't a lot of the hostility to Jews originate with the fact that centuries ago they were money lenders due to usury being against christian doctrine at the time? Then there's the whole crucifiction.
I have to say though, some of the attitudes towards Jews on here are Paisleyesque to say the least.

johnnyskeleton

fontanalis wrote: »

Didn't a lot of the hostility to Jews originate with the fact that centuries ago they were money lenders due to usury being against christian doctrine at the time? Then there's the whole crucifiction.
I have to say though, some of the attitudes towards Jews on here are Paisleyesque to say the least.

All prejudices are based on a fairly basic human instinct to group people into "us" and "them". It doesn't really matter how you define "us" or "them", just so long as there are sufficient distinctions to cause war.

This illusory defining of people as different is the subject of much satire. In Red Dwarf, the cat people died in a religious war over whether Lister's hot dog stand in Figi would be blue or red (or some other irrelevant distinction).

I don't think there was ever any reason why anti-semitism or anti-judean views sprung up in europe. It was enough that they were sufficiently identifiable as "non-christian" for the catholic church to brand them as "them" and therefore the enemy.

demonspawn

Just got this video from my subs on Youtube. Maybe it will stoke up some debate on the issue. Personally, I think some Jews, and others, are too quick to use the anti-Semitic card to deflect criticism of Israel.

Oh, and sub to TRNN. It's a pretty good source of news and commentary that you won't see anywhere else and Paul Jay is a pretty damn good journalist if you ask me.

JustinDee

paky wrote: »

the jews themselves have created that hate. there religion/ideology is warped. they see themselves as superior to other people and religions

paky wrote: »

but there is something seriously wrong with how they are perceived by the rest of the world and they themselves are to blame for it

Astounding that this level of ill-informed delusion still exists in these allegedly 'enlightened' times.

paky wrote: »

dont get me wrong, i have jewish friends . . .

I'd call bullsh on this.

JustinDee

death wish wrote: »

if you were an outsider amongst the jews you would think they hada serious problem with money, power and morals.

*shakes head*
Flip's sake . . .

Nodin

death wish wrote: »

if you were an outsider amongst the jews you would think they hada serious problem with money, power and morals.

They're all the same then?

Clawdeeus

joolsveer wrote: »

It is a prejudice against Arabs and Hebrews no matter what their religion is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
This seems to include the Maltese.

There are many semetic people - but anti-semitisim applies exclusively to hatred of Jews in moderen parlance. People usually say anti-arab or some such when refering to other semetic groups.

I dont really get when people say "Im not anti-semetic, im anti-Zionist" (Im dont mind the Jews, but dont think they should have a country of their own). most people who say this are more anti-Israel (or at least Israels foreign policy) which is fair enough, and different from anti-zionism, at least from my understanding.

Glassheart

death wish wrote: »

if you were an outsider amongst the jews you would think they hada serious problem with money, power and morals.

Are you an outsider amongst them?

Widely speaking they are a well educated & intelligent bunch so naturally they would aspire to well paid jobs and positions of 'power'.

What problem with morals?

OhNoYouDidn't

fontanalis wrote: »

Didn't a lot of the hostility to Jews originate with the fact that centuries ago they were money lenders due to usury being against christian doctrine at the time? Then there's the whole crucifiction.
I have to say though, some of the attitudes towards Jews on here are Paisleyesque to say the least.

Jews traditionally didn't mix with the rest of a population as well as other groups did because in a large part their Kosher diet made it difficult to socially interact. As many Jews prospered in their chosen trades, and ursury was one, people pointed jealously to this and decided that their neighbours were up to something, and the constructs that they were sneaky, ran the world etc grew out of straight forward begrudgery.

The cruxifiction angle is Anti-Jewish as opposed to anti-Semetic, a subtle, but important distinction.

OhNoYouDidn't

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think there was ever any reason why anti-semitism or anti-judean views sprung up in europe. It was enough that they were sufficiently identifiable as "non-christian" for the catholic church to brand them as "them" and therefore the enemy.

Thats anti-Jewish sentiment. "They killed Jesus".

Anto-semitism is more "those sneaky Jews run the worlds banking system and are responsible for destroying the German economy out of spite"

Overheal

I'll tell you whats Antisemetic: BAGEL TAXES.

Does anyone have access to what he said in context? As it is in the Times, its completely harmless observation.

Darlughda

This is a fascinating topic.

Recently, I have become aware that the one subject area that is completely off is any sort of criticism of the judaic religion, more specifically, when adherents of this religion are called 'the jews'.

This has always made perfect sense to me because of

1. The holocaust
2. The christian imperialist attitude
3. the positions held by jewish people in society

However, it does alarm me that any sort of questioning or criticism of jewish people is immediately repudiated with accusations of racism, anti-semitism etc..

Mad sh1t is going on in Israel, jewish people there are even finding their voices silenced regarding the palestinian issue, so why here can we not discuss, satirise, joke and consider this ?

So what if people are claiming there is a secret cabal of jewish bankers ruling the world, if there is not then fair enough, but allegations of such to be met with immediate retorts of oh this is gross anti-semitism you vile thing you .....only makes people wonder wtf is so wrong to suggest this when every other kind of ethnic or racial group goes through the wringer occasionally?

johnnyskeleton

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats anti-Jewish sentiment. "They killed Jesus".

Anto-semitism is more "those sneaky Jews run the worlds banking system and are responsible for destroying the German economy out of spite"

Again, neither is actually true, but just a convenient way of asserting that "they" are different to "us". The Romans killed Jesus and the Weimar German economy was destroyed because of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

Mahatma coat

Heres the thing tho, they have been vilified Despised Huounded and Hunted throughout History, at Best they were tolerated as useful Outsiders in some societies, but nothing more, they have refused to integrate into European Culture yet want to be viewed as Europeans. they appear to thrive off a 'Poor Me' mentality.

the other thing about Stereotypes is that they persist because we can recognise elelmets of truth in them.

demonspawn

Is this guy antisemitic or just another self-hating Jew? You decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9OIqy6md9w

Or maybe he's just right.

Glassheart

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Heres the thing tho, they have been vilified Despised Huounded and Hunted throughout History, at Best they were tolerated as useful Outsiders in some societies, but nothing more, they have refused to integrate into European Culture yet want to be viewed as Europeans. they appear to thrive off a 'Poor Me' mentality.

the other thing about Stereotypes is that they persist because we can recognise elelmets of truth in them.

Have they refused to integrate or have they struggled to integrate due to hostility? Chicken or egg?
They have integrated seamlessly into American society...

Cavehill Red

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Zionist BS.
Palestinians are Semitic, unlike many Israelis (who are Europeans or Slavs.)
The Israeli Defence Forces are the greatest force of anti-Semitism on Earth. It is therefore incumbent upon them to seek to redefine the meaning of the term so that it applies not to actual Semites, but to any criticism of the Zionist project or the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people on their own land.

Cavehill Red

demonspawn wrote: »

Is this guy antisemitic or just another self-hating Jew? You decide.

Or maybe he's just right.

He's entirely correct. The Torah forbids any Jewish state prior to the return of the Messiah.
Of course, this is merely a Jewish version of angels dancing on pinheads, but it remains true within its own context of Judaic law.

Mahatma coat

Glassheart wrote: »

Have they refused to integrate or have they struggled to integrate due to hostility? Chicken or egg?
They have integrated seamlessly into American society...

they havent integrated tho, they have carved themselves out a few little niches where they have control, much like the bankin and Jewlery businesses in Europe before the Purges.

Besides the Few 'Liberal' areas that they have made their base of operation most Americans share the same distrust and dislike as their earlier European countrerparts.

JustinDee

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Heres the thing tho, they have been vilified Despised Huounded and Hunted throughout History, at Best they were tolerated as useful Outsiders in some societies, but nothing more, they have refused to integrate into European Culture yet want to be viewed as Europeans. they appear to thrive off a 'Poor Me' mentality.

the other thing about Stereotypes is that they persist because we can recognise elelmets of truth in them.

What complete and utter insulting generalistic and clueless tosh.

OhNoYouDidn't

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Again, neither is actually true, but just a convenient way of asserting that "they" are different to "us". The Romans killed Jesus and the Weimar German economy was destroyed because of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

I know....

Nodin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Heres the thing tho, they have been vilified Despised Huounded and Hunted throughout History, at Best they were tolerated as useful Outsiders in some societies, but nothing more, they have refused to integrate into European Culture yet want to be viewed as Europeans. they appear to thrive off a 'Poor Me' mentality.

the other thing about Stereotypes is that they persist because we can recognise elelmets of truth in them.

Utter crap.

Clawdeeus

This thread got scary pretty quickly...

Clawdeeus

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Zionist BS.
Palestinians are Semitic, unlike many Israelis (who are Europeans or Slavs.)
The Israeli Defence Forces are the greatest force of anti-Semitism on Earth. It is therefore incumbent upon them to seek to redefine the meaning of the term so that it applies not to actual Semites, but to any criticism of the Zionist project or the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people on their own land.

This has been addressed already.

Scofflaw

Darlughda wrote: »

So what if people are claiming there is a secret cabal of jewish bankers ruling the world, if there is not then fair enough, but allegations of such to be met with immediate retorts of oh this is gross anti-semitism you vile thing you .....only makes people wonder wtf is so wrong to suggest this when every other kind of ethnic or racial group goes through the wringer occasionally?

True - particularly since there are such a wide variety of other claimed secret cabals ruling the world. Interestingly, though, I can't recall any claims that there's a secret cabal of women or black people ruling the world.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Heres the thing tho, they have been vilified Despised Huounded and Hunted throughout History, at Best they were tolerated as useful Outsiders in some societies, but nothing more, they have refused to integrate into European Culture yet want to be viewed as Europeans. they appear to thrive off a 'Poor Me' mentality.

See above.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the other thing about Stereotypes is that they persist because we can recognise elelmets of truth in them.

No, they persist because certain elements of society, such as yourself, believe they see "elements of truth" in them. What they're seeing, though, is just confirmation of their prejudices.

regards,
Scofflaw

Clawdeeus

Very true, and the stereotypes are often opposing to each other, so a member of a community is damned both ways.

For example, Jews are flashy with their wealth.

Jews are tight fisted.

Im surprised by the amount of "Im not rascist but them Jews" people are out there, it seems to be particularly big in the conspiracy theory community.

Ben Hadad

Jewish people are like all of us, they want the same things, do the same things and feel the same things. I have way more in common with a Jewish person than an American person in a hell of a lot of ways. I can understand where they are coming from totally.

They are totally sourrounded by nations that would rather they didn't exist. That is the fact of the matter. They are coerced into the army at a very young age, for quite a period of time, in a very tense, hostile and dangerous environment, which leaves a very big imprint on their psyche. Their history and religion further reaffirms their justification for their actions, at the detriment of moderation. They are through extremes of geography, geopolitics and historical context, extreme.

All of this is totally to be expected from any group of motivated human beings. However in a modern global society, the moderates who currently are in the majority, however dwindling, will always attempt to placate the extreme elements, due to very numerous reasons that benefit that society. Many people who could be branded anti semites are in this group; people wishing to reduce extremisim, for the greater benefit. Many people are just ignorant. Very very few are actually anti semites.

demonspawn

Ben Hadad wrote: »

Jewish people are like all of us, they want the same things, do the same things and feel the same things. I have way more in common with a Jewish person than an American person in a hell of a lot of ways. I can understand where they are coming from totally.

They are totally sourrounded by nations that would rather they didn't exist. That is the fact of the matter. They are coerced into the army at a very young age, for quite a period of time, in a very tense, hostile and dangerous environment, which leaves a very big imprint on their psyche. Their history and religion further reaffirms their justification for their actions, at the detriment of moderation. They are through extremes of geography, geopolitics and historical context, extreme.

All of this is totally to be expected from any group of motivated human beings. However in a modern global society, the moderates who currently are in the majority, however dwindling, will always attempt to placate the extreme elements, due to very numerous reasons that benefit that society. Many people who could be branded anti semites are in this group; people wishing to reduce extremisim, for the greater benefit. Many people are just ignorant. Very very few are actually anti semites.

Excellent post and I agree completely. It's always the minority of extremists and fundamentalists of both sides that dictate political agendas, as moderates are content to try and placate this minority in the interest of peace. This minority don't want peace, they are the real world equivalent of internet trolls. The more you feed them the more they want. You should post here more often.

Mahatma coat

Scofflaw wrote: »

See above.

you mean these articulate contributions?

What complete and utter insulting generalistic and clueless tosh.

Utter crap

No, they persist because certain elements of society, such as yourself, believe they see "elements of truth" in them.

So you recognise that A Lot of people can see the reasoning behind the
stereotypes,

What they're seeing, though, is just confirmation of their prejudices.

regards,
Scofflaw

but because they dont agree with your World View they are obviously Wrong, no ifs ands or Buts, you have to say nice things about the Jews or else.

digme

Just a clever word invented to stifle honest debate.

Clawdeeus

digme wrote: »

Just a clever word invented to stifle honest debate.

Are you serious?