Doctor removes the wrong kidney from kid

sdanseo

Yet another fúckup in our health system. I know you can be having a bad day but a bit of a monumental mistake between these two lads here, whoevers to blame:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0903/kidney.html

The surgeon who removed the wrong kidney from an eight-year-old boy has told a Medical Council inquiry that he was not familiar with the patient.
Mr Sri Paran said that on the day of the operation in Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin, he had been doing minor procedures.
He was then asked to perform surgery on a young boy, and the notes made by the consultant said the procedure was a kidney removal on the left side.
Mr Paran, who is from Sri Lanka and who qualified in medicine from University College Galway, was giving evidence on the final day of the inquiry.
Mr Paran was 'taken aback' to be asked by the consultant to perform the major surgery with less than five minutes' notice.
But he said as a junior doctor, he could not say no to Prof Martin Corbally, who is the senior consultant surgeon in Crumlin.

BTW folks, not really funny when its kids. Keep the sick jokes to yourselves.

mikom

sdonn wrote: »

BTW folks, not really funny when its kids. Keep the sick jokes to yourselves.

Thanks Daddy.

--Kaiser--

Solution, remove the consultants kidney and give it to the kid, he obviously doesn't take his job seriously enough

Saadyst

Wonder why they refer to him as "Mr. Paran" and not "Dr. Paran"

sdanseo

Saadyst wrote: »

Wonder why they refer to him as "Mr. Paran" and not "Dr. Paran"

That's the norm with surgeons, they go by Mr/Mrs and not Dr.

Liam Byrne

the notes made by the consultant said the procedure was a kidney removal on the left side.

The age-old question comes to mind : "Your left or my left ?"

BostonB

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Solution, remove the consultants kidney and give it to the kid, he obviously doesn't take his job seriously enough

+1

Theres no excuse for this. Don't operate with 5 mins notice on someone you don't know.

starbelgrade

The Doctor took out the wrong kidney? That's just taking the piss.

UpCork

I'm surprised that they didn't mark the site where the operation is to take place? I thought this would be normaly procedure.
I have watched medical type programmes on television and anytime someone had to have an operation the surgeon marked the site with a marker pen.

What an awful thing for the family to go through

who what when

Going to play devils advocate on this one because i kinda feel sorry for the surgeon involved.

I mean if i f*ck up in work its just a pain in the arse that has to be sorted out but if these guys make even one mistake then its more than likely very serious! To err is human after all!

sdanseo

I reckon the blame has to lie with the guy in charge...if the surgeon is to be believed, he pressured him into complex surgery with little or no preparation. Hardly very professional.

CountingCrows

sdonn wrote: »

Keep the sick jokes to yourselves.

How did Helen Keller parents punish her?
They glued door knobs to the wall

_feedback_

I've been reading a bit about this. Some of the pros are saying that it's not standard practise to mark kidneys pre op. A lot are marked, but not kidneys.

EDIT: here's some of what's marked / not marked. You can see clearly, no kidneys. link

Sticky_Fingers

who what when wrote: »

Going to play devils advocate on this one because i kinda feel sorry for the surgeon involved.

I mean if i f*ck up in work its just a pain in the arse that has to be sorted out but if these guys make even one mistake then its more than likely very serious! To err is human after all!

I agree the surgeon who carried out the procedure is gonna get crucified over this but he's just a junior doctor who had 5 minutes to prepare for a major operation just because the consultant wasn't able to do the procedure himself. The whole culture of deference to consultants and the damage it can cause has reared its ugly head once again and I doubt this case will have any impact on that.

Jelly2

It is also the case that the consultant said in court, according to yesterday's Indo, that he wrote 'left' in his notes after discussions with the parents about the operation, but that he should have written right. So he wrote it wrongly and, according to the surgeon, he told him wrongly too. Seems hard to blame the surgeon really.

bonerm

Mr Paran was 'taken aback'

I thought he was taken a kidney?

Callan57

sdonn wrote: »

I reckon the blame has to lie with the guy in charge...if the surgeon is to be believed, he pressured him into complex surgery with little or no preparation. Hardly very professional.

I find this the most disturbing issue ... we pay these guys (and they are mostly guys) big bucks for their skill & professionalism and what do we get a whine & the good old 'he told me to do it' line. You wouldn't accept this from a 4 year old. He is a paediatrics surgeon for God's sake!
Just another thing to worry about if you or anyone belonging to you is in hospital.

landsleaving

Consultant should be sacked really, for being highly unprofessional and lazy.

So should the surgeon though, I mean saying 'I couldn't say no' might be ok if you arent too sure how to work the till in a shop, but when someone asks you to take someones kidney out, and you aren't sure which one, have the balls to say you don't know what to do.

Death by kidney stoning!

Donkey Oaty

bonerm wrote: »

I thought he was taken a kidney?

That's offal.

At least they got the right kid - would be much worse to go in for an ingrown toe nail and to come out minus a kidney.

prinz

landsleaving wrote: »

So should the surgeon though, I mean saying 'I couldn't say no' might be ok if you arent too sure how to work the till in a shop, but when someone asks you to take someones kidney out, and you aren't sure which one, have the balls to say you don't know what to do.

The surgeon did know. He took out the kidney he was instructed to take out. Not his fault. As far as he was concerned he removed the correct kidney. Refusing the consultant is another issue.

Corbally screwed up. He shouldn't have put the surgeon in that position to begin with tbh.

Callan57

prinz wrote: »

The surgeon did know. He took out the kidney he was instructed to take out. Not his fault. As far as he was concerned he removed the correct kidney. Refusing the consultant is another issue.

Corbally screwed up. He shouldn't have put the surgeon in that position to begin with tbh.

Oh yea ... just following orders

Banned Account

Well one thing is for certain - you couldn't accuse the surgeon of being renally attentive*




*spoonerisms ftw.

landsleaving

prinz wrote: »

The surgeon did know. He took out the kidney he was instructed to take out. Not his fault. As far as he was concerned he removed the correct kidney. Refusing the consultant is another issue.

Corbally screwed up. He shouldn't have put the surgeon in that position to begin with tbh.

The article said 'he was baffled to find that the left kidney to be removed appeared healthy.'

That says to me he knew something was wrong, he should have really started asking questions at that point.

In fairness though, I do agree that its Corbally who is mainly at fault, complete negligence on his part.

prinz

landsleaving wrote: »

The article said 'he was baffled to find that the left kidney to be removed appeared healthy.'That says to me he knew something was wrong, he should have really started asking questions at that point..

He did. He double checked the paperwork. The paperwork was wrong. There is an issue with deference to authority. Happened before, will happen again. Human error.

bnt

Jelly2 wrote: »

It is also the case that the consultant said in court, according to yesterday's Indo, that he wrote 'left' in his notes after discussions with the parents about the operation, but that he should have written right. So he wrote it wrongly and, according to the surgeon, he told him wrongly too. Seems hard to blame the surgeon really.

If they really talk about "left" and "right", that's part of the problem right there: they are relative terms, depending on your position. They should be thinking like sailors: port and starboard. "Remove the starboard kidney."

landsleaving

prinz wrote: »

He did. He double checked the paperwork. The paperwork was wrong. There is an issue with deference to authority. Happened before, will happen again. Human error.

I guess I just have less sympathy for the guy. He saw a healthy kidney, thought 'hey, I'm meant to remove an unhealthy one' (the article seems to infer that he can tell the difference) and then just checked his paperwork, shrugged and blithely continued with a task he saw himself was a mistake.

I'm just going by this article though, I don't claim to know much about kidneys and surgery, so maybe its not as simple as that?

UpCork

landsleaving wrote: »

I guess I just have less sympathy for the guy. He saw a healthy kidney, thought 'hey, I'm meant to remove an unhealthy one' (the article seems to infer that he can tell the difference) and then just checked his paperwork, shrugged and blithely continued with a task he saw himself was a mistake.

I'm just going by this article though, I don't claim to know much about kidneys and surgery, so maybe its not as simple as that?

This is one thing I wondered. Surely when the surgeon was looking at the wrong kidney, he'd have known it looked healthy and should have queried it?

stovelid

sdonn wrote: »

Keep the sick jokes to yourselves.

I've tried my hardest and I'm coming up blank.

Decent renal puns are pretty thin on the ground, it would seem.

Banned Account

stovelid wrote: »

I've tried my hardest and I'm coming up blank.

Decent renal puns are pretty thin on the ground, it would seem.

What about my renally attentive one (punning with the fact that he wasn't anally retentive)

please thank me ...

--Kaiser--

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

What about my renally attentive one (punning with the fact that he wasn't anally retentive)

please thank me ...

You've got to be kidneying me

stovelid

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

What about my renally attentive one (punning with the fact that he wasn't anally retentive)

please thank me ...

A thanks would be inappropriate and, indeed, provide no incentive for future improvement.

Perhaps it's time for an intermediate thanks: like a not bad, but could do better signifier.


:pac:

Banned Account

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You've got to be kidneying me

Seriously now, if no-one liked mine you definately ain't getting thanked - that was truly dyalisisabolical

Banned Account

stovelid wrote: »

A thanks would be inappropriate and, indeed, provide no incentive for future improvement.

Perhaps it's time for an intermediate thanks: like a not bad, but could do better signifier.


:pac:

Kinda like a "****"??

gizmo

In before someone blames Harney or Cowen...

biko

This is why they often write onto the patients skin in marker pen.
Apparently not done here.

up for anything

landsleaving wrote: »

So should the surgeon though, I mean saying 'I couldn't say no' might be ok if you arent too sure how to work the till in a shop, but when someone asks you to take someones kidney out, and you aren't sure which one, have the balls to say you don't know what to do.

He did know what to do. The notes said left so he did a left. No blame attached to him.

Donkey Oaty

up for anything wrote: »

He did know what to do. The notes said left so he did a left. No blame attached to him.

Yes, but wouldn't he have immediately realised that the left one wasn't the one that had gone pear-shaped?

--Kaiser--

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Seriously now, if no-one liked mine you definately ain't getting thanked - that was truly dyalisisabolical

Ureter with me or against me on this one

_feedback_

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Ureter with me or against me on this one

urea-ly are on top form with the puns today AH

drkpower

up for anything wrote: »

He did know what to do. The notes said left so he did a left. No blame attached to him.

:eek: Yes, best to rely on something written somewhere by someone else rather than making an independent clinical judgment on the basis of the evidence of his own very eyes.

seanin4711

Hse review contracts only people who are attracted by them are the majority foreign that's grand but they cannot be properly vetted qualifications etc.
The major word here is accountability.
This guy should do time.
Majority of Irish surgeons seem to have moved abroad or are now "consultants"
Better cash that way guaranteed 150 bucks be it 5 mins or 15(usually the former)
Joke of a medical system.
Please people vote these ultimate Chancers out of office.
Think for yourselves not because your parents voted one way.
Break the mould.

irelandrover

drkpower wrote: »

:eek: Yes, best to rely on something written somewhere by someone else rather than making an independent clinical judgment on the basis of the evidence of his own very eyes.

He was told the left kindney and then double checked the paperwork which also said left kidney.
In my opinion 99% of the blame lies with the consultant. Maybe 1% with the surgeon.

Donkey Oaty

seanin4711 wrote: »

Hse review contracts only people who are attracted by them are the majority foreign that's grand but they cannot be properly vetted qualifications etc.

This guy graduated from Galway.

Banned Account

seanin4711 wrote: »

Hse review contracts only people who are attracted by them are the majority foreign that's grand but they cannot be properly vetted qualifications etc.
The major word here is accountability.
This guy should do time.
Majority of Irish surgeons seem to have moved abroad or are now "consultants"
Better cash that way guaranteed 150 bucks be it 5 mins or 15(usually the former)
Joke of a medical system.
Please people vote these ultimate Chancers out of office.
Think for yourselves not because your parents voted one way.
Break the mould.

What are you saying.
I do not follow.
It may be borderline racist.
I'm not quite sure though.
Is that why you type this way?
Please tell me.
I am confused.

_feedback_

seanin4711 wrote: »

Hse review contracts only people who are attracted by them are the majority foreign that's grand but they cannot be properly vetted qualifications etc.
The major word here is accountability.
This guy should do time.
Majority of Irish surgeons seem to have moved abroad or are now "consultants"
Better cash that way guaranteed 150 bucks be it 5 mins or 15(usually the former)
Joke of a medical system.Please people vote these ultimate Chancers out of office.
Think for yourselves not because your parents voted one way.
Break the mould.

Joke of a post more like.

thesimpsons

irelandrover wrote: »

He was told the left kindney and then double checked the paperwork which also said left kidney.
In my opinion 99% of the blame lies with the consultant. Maybe 1% with the surgeon.

if you left a note for someone to photocopy a piece of paper and asked for a photocopy of Page 2, wouldn't you expect the copier person to query you if it turned out Page 2 was a blank !!!! A healthy kidney appears different from a diseased one - consultant was at fault but so too was the surgeon. They are both supposed to be highly educated people - he told me to do it just isn't good enough. its not human error - its gross incompetance. You've now got a kid on life long dialaysis waiting for a transplant which has its own potential problems.

28064212

UpCork wrote: »

This is one thing I wondered. Surely when the surgeon was looking at the wrong kidney, he'd have known it looked healthy and should have queried it?

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Yes, but wouldn't he have immediately realised that the left one wasn't the one that had gone pear-shaped?

I'm guessing none of the people suggesting the operating surgeon was at fault are surgeons themselves? It's entirely possible for a failing kidney to look perfectly healthy. That's why there are diagnostic machines. They don't just take a look at a kidney and say "oh yeah, that's gone bad, have to take it out". Also, it's not like the surgeon could have just taken a look at the other one to compare it, that would require a much larger operation. There is no way the surgeon was at fault here

irelandrover

thesimpsons wrote: »

if you left a note for someone to photocopy a piece of paper and asked for a photocopy of Page 2, wouldn't you expect the copier person to query you if it turned out Page 2 was a blank !!!! A healthy kidney appears different from a diseased one - consultant was at fault but so too was the surgeon. They are both supposed to be highly educated people - he told me to do it just isn't good enough. its not human error - its gross incompetance. You've now got a kid on life long dialaysis waiting for a transplant which has its own potential problems.

Would a kidney that needed to be removed always look diseased?

Donkey Oaty

28064212 wrote: »

I'm guessing none of the people suggesting the operating surgeon was at fault are surgeons themselves? It's entirely possible for a failing kidney to look perfectly healthy. That's why there are diagnostic machines. They don't just take a look at a kidney and say "oh yeah, that's gone bad, have to take it out". Also, it's not like the surgeon could have just taken a look at the other one to compare it, that would require a much larger operation.

Thanks for clarifying this. If it's true - and I have no reason to doubt that it is - then surely the surgeon must be in the clear.

However, what are the allegations referred to here? (From RTE news)

Prof Corbally is facing 15 allegations of profession misconduct while his colleague Mr Paran is facing 12 allegations of profession misconduct.

landsleaving

28064212 wrote: »

I'm guessing none of the people suggesting the operating surgeon was at fault are surgeons themselves? It's entirely possible for a failing kidney to look perfectly healthy. That's why there are diagnostic machines. They don't just take a look at a kidney and say "oh yeah, that's gone bad, have to take it out". Also, it's not like the surgeon could have just taken a look at the other one to compare it, that would require a much larger operation. There is no way the surgeon was at fault here

Thanks for the info, that clears things up a bit for me. Looks like the blame is entirely on the consultant. And the education system that failed to teach him left from right.