What is an acceptable standard of living in Ireland in the 21st century?

I am curious what people think is an acceptably standard of living in Ireland in the 21 Century.

We and lots of other European countries are bowering massively to maintain the standard of living we have at the moment. Which must mean we have to lower our standard of living.

Where would you start....for example would you be happy to have one teacher to 40 children?




So what do you think is acceptable.

Bill2673

Whats an acceptable standard of living?

A country, much like an individual, has a certain amount of cash/ income/ wealth....and can spend it according to its priorities.

You can say 1 teacher to 25 kids is the minimum acceptable, but if the money isn't there then its not there.....alternatively, you can say, ok we will have that level, but less police officers or less nurses. or you can say, we will pay teachers less and have more of them.*

So what do you mean by acceptable? The level we should aspire to? The level at which, if its not achieved people should be out on the streets protesting?



*(And I know, €25bn on Anglo, could be spent elsewhere, blah de blah de blah).

It probably is one of those how long is a piece of string questions, but as our standard of living is was produced by a false economy we are going to have to readjust and we will have to make hard choices.

Denerick

We were living a lie for too long, living on borrowed German money to live like Kings today. We did not need all that expensive shít we filled our homes with, the Italian bathtubs at 10 grand a pop, or the poncy carpets costing 15 grand for the whole house.

This economic crash was just fate and natures way of telling us to wise up. We bought shít we didn't need with money we didn't have. When that money stopped breaking up on our shores, what did we do? We panicked.

jamimon

Ironically many still despise the German. And many still haven't learn anything.

JuliusCaesar

Denerick wrote: »

We were living a lie for too long, living on borrowed German money to live like Kings today. We did not need all that expensive shít we filled our homes with, the Italian bathtubs at 10 grand a pop, or the poncy carpets costing 15 grand for the whole house.

I'm totally fed up with people telling me "we" did this that and the other: "we" got Italian bathtubs etc. I didn't! I lived on a very modest wage! I never borrowed anything (other than my mortgage - and that was a reasonable amount). The only carpets in my house are the ones that were there when I bought it.

YOU went nuts, not me! Jeesuz.

JuliusCaesar

Denerick wrote: »

We were living a lie for too long, living on borrowed German money to live like Kings today. We did not need all that expensive shít we filled our homes with, the Italian bathtubs at 10 grand a pop, or the poncy carpets costing 15 grand for the whole house.

I'm totally fed up with people telling me "we" did this that and the other: "we" got Italian bathtubs etc. I didn't! I lived on a very modest wage! I never borrowed anything (other than my mortgage - and that was a reasonable amount). The only carpets in my house are the ones that were there when I bought it.

YOU went nuts, not me! Jeesuz.

Besides, I'd have a socialist outlook on what is an acceptable standard of living. Not so much what "I" have in the line of gold taps etc, but that everyone has the necessities in health and education etc. And this means going back to the smaller gap between rich and poor.

Denerick

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I'm totally fed up with people telling me "we" did this that and the other: "we" got Italian bathtubs etc. I didn't! I lived on a very modest wage! I never borrowed anything (other than my mortgage - and that was a reasonable amount). The only carpets in my house are the ones that were there when I bought it.

YOU went nuts, not me! Jeesuz.

Unfortunately if 8/10 people live profligaty, the other 2 will suffer as a consequence. Its a real bitch.

irishh_bob

mariaalice wrote: »

I am curious what people think is an acceptably standard of living in Ireland in the 21 Century.

We and lots of other European countries are bowering massively to maintain the standard of living we have at the moment. Which must mean we have to lower our standard of living.

Where would you start....for example would you be happy to have one teacher to 40 children?




So what do you think is acceptable.

class sizes are nowhere near 30 let alone 40 in this country , in the parish where i live there are three primary schools , the two smallest schools have a total population of 30 and 25 respectivley which means the average class size is less than 4 per class , im not from valentia island or north donegal either btw

fergalr

mariaalice wrote: »

I am curious what people think is an acceptably standard of living in Ireland in the 21 Century.

I reckon about what the median standard is now, is probably acceptable, for everyone, and if everyone has access to it.

mariaalice wrote: »

We and lots of other European countries are bowering massively to maintain the standard of living we have at the moment. Which must mean we have to lower our standard of living.

Not necessarily.

For example, it might be possible to avoid borrowing by lowering the standard of living of a minority, and increasing it for a minority.
Ie, several 2nd homes, and fancy sportscars, puts a lot of children through college.

Its also debatable whether the standard of living of some people would really be lowered if they had less disposable income to spend on stupid stuff.

But its not at all clear that the borrowing means the net, or baseline, standard needs to lowered.

mariaalice wrote: »

Where would you start....for example would you be happy to have one teacher to 40 children?

Or have fewer over equipped private schools?

mariaalice wrote: »

So what do you think is acceptable.

Free healthcare (to German or NHS standard) and education (to Irish university standard) for all, guaranteed roof over head, sufficient fresh food (ie which you cook yourself), warmth, clothing, in return for 30-40 hours/week reasonably diligent work, and probably about 50-100euro/week discretionary worth of spending on top.

Not saying this is the ideal, or that it should be centrally provided (free market might be the best way to provide most of it, with welfare to pick up the slack) but personally that sounds about right to me.

fergalr

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I'm totally fed up with people telling me "we" did this that and the other: "we" got Italian bathtubs etc. I didn't! I lived on a very modest wage! I never borrowed anything (other than my mortgage - and that was a reasonable amount). The only carpets in my house are the ones that were there when I bought it.

YOU went nuts, not me! Jeesuz.

Republic of Ireland as a nation state is heavily in debt.
If you are Irish, part of the electorate, part of the system, you borrowed, whether you realised it or not.

Sure, some people caused problems more than others, but those people who just minded their own business and got on with their life, and weren't really interested in the bigger issues... are responsible too.

Not talking about you specifically here, but in general - if the average joe, who is now complaining about how it had nothing to do with them, had instead taken more of an interest in how things are run, this mightn't have happened.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Besides, I'd have a socialist outlook on what is an acceptable standard of living.

Unfortunately, we will all be forced to have a socialist outlook - on the losses.

looksee

fergalr wrote: »

Republic of Ireland as a nation state is heavily in debt.
If you are Irish, part of the electorate, part of the system, you borrowed, whether you realised it or not.

Sure, some people caused problems more than others, but those people who just minded their own business and got on with their life, and weren't really interested in the bigger issues... are responsible too.

Not talking about you specifically here, but in general - if the average joe, who is now complaining about how it had nothing to do with them, had instead taken more of an interest in how things are run, this mightn't have happened.

Nice bit of generalisation there. What precisely were the average joes supposted to do. I didn't vote the same government in time after time. And I haven't the least doubt a lollipop will be found just before the next election and they will be voted in again.

I reared my children in the 70s and 80s in Ireland, I didn't have a job, there weren't any. I stayed at home and cooked and sewed and kept the house going with diy. We went on camping holidays for a week in Wexford or Cork. We paid up to 50% tax, and horrendous doctors' bills. And we had a salary coming in, we were relatively well off. I remember a friend of mine in bits because her three young children were all sick and she had had to take them all to the doctor, and could not afford the IR£80 bill, they were just above the IR£12,000 (or thereabouts) cut off for a medical card.

We lived in the country and on one occasion employed a man to put a television arial on the roof. Do you claim VAT he said. No, we said, we don't have a business, why do you ask. Ah, you could say you have a business and cover the VAT that way, he said. Apparently it was the usual thing to do!

So at the bottom you had people with fraudulent VAT accounts, and at the top expense accounts that covered everything. And not a lot has changed. Every penny of my life is accounted for by the PAYE system. It feels like everyone else does what the hell they like.

There still seems to be more money about than there was the last time. If you haven't got it, don't spend it. Don't go on holiday, don't pay for Skye sports, you don't need all those electronic/computer gadgets, or cds or the latest mobile phones. Penny-pinching can be miserable, but it won't kill you.

Don't tell me its my fault though, I do not owe anyone anything, and don't anyone tell me I am lucky. Its amazing how lucky you get when you live within your means. I am grateful that we did that, and I am grateful that we had an income, (only ever one between us), but luck doesn't come into it.

I cannot control anything except by voting, which I do, but there are a lot more people who will find good reason to vote in the chancers again. As long as there are people who are prepared to make excuses for the government, and have the attitude of 'ah, would you deny the bhoys a few pints' when their incompetence is showing, we will stick in the rut we are in.

fergalr

looksee wrote: »

Nice bit of generalisation there.

Well - I did say 'in general' and acknowledge that I was generalising.

But I argue a certain amount of generalisation is appropriate here.
Ireland is a democracy. In a democracy the people control the society, and consequently the people must take a lot of the responsibility and blame when their democracy gets it wrong.

I guess I'm sick of everyone saying 'its not my fault'. There wasn't an armed dictatorship and a resistance movement here. The people that messed up the country were elected.

And, I mean, its not like we didn't know FF were somewhat in bed with the property developers and banks, after the Haughey scandals broke in the late 90s. But, frankly, few cared about the corruption, as long as the going was good.

Now, any particular one of us mightn't have voted for them. But did we go out in the streets and protest? Or even have informed political discussions with our friends over who the best candidates were?

People in other democracies get involved in their political process. We dont seem to. We think politics is boring, and many of us still even vote along civil war party lines. People would rather have a conversation about who'll win the Sam rather than who is the best to vote for.

As long as we are disinterested in politics, and uninformed citizens, we won't get good government.

looksee wrote: »

What precisely were the average joes supposted to do. I didn't vote the same government in time after time. And I haven't the least doubt a lollipop will be found just before the next election and they will be voted in again.

I reared my children in the 70s and 80s in Ireland, I didn't have a job, there weren't any. I stayed at home and cooked and sewed and kept the house going with diy. We went on camping holidays for a week in Wexford or Cork. We paid up to 50% tax, and horrendous doctors' bills. And we had a salary coming in, we were relatively well off. I remember a friend of mine in bits because her three young children were all sick and she had had to take them all to the doctor, and could not afford the IR£80 bill, they were just above the IR£12,000 (or thereabouts) cut off for a medical card.

We lived in the country and on one occasion employed a man to put a television arial on the roof. Do you claim VAT he said. No, we said, we don't have a business, why do you ask. Ah, you could say you have a business and cover the VAT that way, he said. Apparently it was the usual thing to do!

So at the bottom you had people with fraudulent VAT accounts, and at the top expense accounts that covered everything. And not a lot has changed. Every penny of my life is accounted for by the PAYE system. It feels like everyone else does what the hell they like.

There still seems to be more money about than there was the last time. If you haven't got it, don't spend it. Don't go on holiday, don't pay for Skye sports, you don't need all those electronic/computer gadgets, or cds or the latest mobile phones. Penny-pinching can be miserable, but it won't kill you.

Don't tell me its my fault though, I do not owe anyone anything, and don't anyone tell me I am lucky. Its amazing how lucky you get when you live within your means. I am grateful that we did that, and I am grateful that we had an income, (only ever one between us), but luck doesn't come into it.

I wasn't alive at that time. And I'm not wanting to trivialise anyones struggle.

But, again, speaking generally, most of us are lucky to have been born into this country, at the time we were born. We aren't at war, or in the middle of a famine. We won the lottery by being born here and not Ethiopia or Niger, or any one of the other properly poor countries.

looksee wrote: »

I cannot control anything except by voting, which I do, but there are a lot more people who will find good reason to vote in the chancers again. As long as there are people who are prepared to make excuses for the government, and have the attitude of 'ah, would you deny the bhoys a few pints' when their incompetence is showing, we will stick in the rut we are in.

Yes, I agree that that attitude needs to change. But there's more that we can do than just vote. We can discuss it with our friends, we can research whats going on, and inform people around us that aren't aware. We could even start new political parties, or get directly involved in the political process.

But we can't all indefinitely just wash our hands of responsibility, and then blame someone else when stuff goes wrong. Ireland has cultural political problems, and as long as these remain, all of us that are part of this culture foot part of the blame.

I'm not trying to blame everyone else here. Instead I'm saying that we should all take part of the blame - me included - and the responsibility, and try better in future. I think this part of our attitude needs to change to fix our systemic issues.


Either way, every taxpayer, regardless of who they voted for, will pay the costs.

looksee

fergalr wrote: »

Well - I did say 'in general' and acknowledge that I was generalising.

But I argue a certain amount of generalisation is appropriate here.
Ireland is a democracy. In a democracy the people control the society, and consequently the people must take a lot of the responsibility and blame when their democracy gets it wrong.

I guess I'm sick of everyone saying 'its not my fault'. There wasn't an armed dictatorship and a resistance movement here. The people that messed up the country were elected.

And, I mean, its not like we didn't know FF were somewhat in bed with the property developers and banks, after the Haughey scandals broke in the late 90s. But, frankly, few cared about the corruption, as long as the going was good.

Now, any particular one of us mightn't have voted for them. But did we go out in the streets and protest? Or even have informed political discussions with our friends over who the best candidates were?

People in other democracies get involved in their political process. We dont seem to. We think politics is boring, and many of us still even vote along civil war party lines. People would rather have a conversation about who'll win the Sam rather than who is the best to vote for.

As long as we are disinterested in politics, and uninformed citizens, we won't get good government.



I wasn't alive at that time. And I'm not wanting to trivialise anyones struggle.

But, again, speaking generally, most of us are lucky to have been born into this country, at the time we were born. We aren't at war, or in the middle of a famine. We won the lottery by being born here and not Ethiopia or Niger, or any one of the other properly poor countries.






Yes, I agree that that attitude needs to change. But there's more that we can do than just vote. We can discuss it with our friends, we can research whats going on, and inform people around us that aren't aware. We could even start new political parties, or get directly involved in the political process.

But we can't all indefinitely just wash our hands of responsibility, and then blame someone else when stuff goes wrong. Ireland has cultural political problems, and as long as these remain, all of us that are part of this culture foot part of the blame.

I'm not trying to blame everyone else here. Instead I'm saying that we should all take part of the blame - me included - and the responsibility, and try better in future. I think this part of our attitude needs to change to fix our systemic issues.

Either way, every taxpayer, regardless of who they voted for, will pay the costs.

Fergalr, I appreciate your very reasoned reply, you have made your point in a calm and rational way - rather calmer than I was However I do not entirely agree with you and I feel that your ideas are not very realistic.

Surely, in a Democracy people vote for the government they want, and the majority opinion rules. It seems over the past number of years the majority opinion has been to keep the status quo.

The only alternative then is, as you say, for people to set up alternative political parties. Very few of us have political skills however, and unfortunately, in the nature of things, the people who have political skills are not necessarily the soundest people to run the country.

The PDs were a response to dissatisfaction with the government. I voted for them, but I am not a political person, I do not entirely follow the subtleties of politics, and I have no real understanding of why they failed.

I find it incomprehensible that people will continue to vote in a party that has brought the country to its knees. My own husband is one of the people who supports them, I just vote to cancel his vote and I cannot understand the rationale of his arguments.

I heard someone on the radio yesterday say 'I think FF is the only party with the guts to put this country right'. How can you argue with that? If you point out that FF have been running the country for the last good number of years, and got us into this mess the response is the kind of 'ah, everyone is out to get them, the media should keep quiet' nonsense. Kind of 'lets not talk about it, then it isn't a problem'.

The fact is that, in spite of everything, the majority want the government we have got. And that is a Democracy.

Going back to the acceptable standard of living that the OP asked about. That is very subjective. Some people consider that life is not acceptable unless you can have a couple of holidays a year. Or that you can eat/drink out a couple of times a week. Or you can join a gym, buy designer clothes, restyle your house when you feel like it. Other people would not be interested in any of these things, and would be happy to be able to put food on the table and clothe their family, pay the mortgage and still be able to have a bit to save and deal with emergencies. The first is aspirational (if those are the things you want to aspire to) the second is nearer to acceptable, provided it was the minimum standard for most people. After the good years too many people do not know the difference between what they want and what they need.

fergalr

looksee wrote: »

Fergalr, I appreciate your very reasoned reply, you have made your point in a calm and rational way - rather calmer than I was

Thanks for the kind words! Its an emotive issue of course - I think a lot of us feeling strongly about how our country is run, and has been run - not a bad thing.

looksee wrote: »

However I do not entirely agree with you and I feel that your ideas are not very realistic.

Yes, you might be right. Its hard to know where to draw the boundary between idealism and realism on issues like this.

I do think though, that trying to have a democracy is quite an idealistic idea.

Now, maybe its just not realistic to expect people to discharge their democratic duties diligently - but on the other hand, when you look at the potential costs of living in an undemocratic state, when things goes wrong, democracy compares pretty well.
Yes, every voter has to work at it, for it to function, but if we were just coming from living under a terrible dictator for 50 years, that might seem like a very small price to pay. I wonder if a lot of us are just spoilt by how good things are, and unwilling to do the small amount of work required of us as citizens for things to function properly.

Maybe thats too harsh - I'm not sure with how much conviction I think that.

looksee wrote: »

Surely, in a Democracy people vote for the government they want, and the majority opinion rules. It seems over the past number of years the majority opinion has been to keep the status quo.

Yes, that has been the majority opinion, it would seem.


The core of a democracy is that the people control the country.
But theres more to it than that. Any time people agree to make decisions as a group like that, they agree to be bound by the decision of the group.


Its like if theres an election for the captaincy of your school football team. Maybe you get outvoted, and the other person becomes the captain. The idea of the democracy is that you accept the will of the group and stay as part of the team, even if you don't agree with the decision of the group.

Its your team - you still try play the best football you can, and take credit for the success and responsibility for the failures, as a member of the team.

Thats the democratic ideal, and is what I'm getting at - when that attitude of responsibility prevails, democratic systems seem to work well - and when everyone is washing their hands, and people aren't participating, or are feeling disenfranchised, they do badly.

I just don't think we as the people who elect the government can wash our hands of what the government does.

People that make up a system can't wash their hands completely of what the system does.

looksee wrote: »

The only alternative then is, as you say, for people to set up alternative political parties. Very few of us have political skills however, and unfortunately, in the nature of things, the people who have political skills are not necessarily the soundest people to run the country.

You're right in that very few of us have the political skills to run the country. And the system we built here doesn't seem to put the best people at the top.

looksee wrote: »

The PDs were a response to dissatisfaction with the government. I voted for them, but I am not a political person, I do not entirely follow the subtleties of politics, and I have no real understanding of why they failed.

Everyone has to be a politcal person though, for voting to work. Thats what I'm trying to say. We don't all have to be members of parties, but we have to learn about who we are voting for, what they stand for, and whats going on. Otherwise, we pay a lot more taxes when people mess the country up...

As an aside, I'm glad the PDs failed - they seemed very dogmatically trying to privatise a lot of things, and cared less about the gap between rich and poor than they should - even if they were socially liberal in a way I agree with. I suspect this is partly why they failed - they were too much in favour of the rich for even the Irish voter to stand - maybe not, dunno.

looksee wrote: »

I find it incomprehensible that people will continue to vote in a party that has brought the country to its knees. My own husband is one of the people who supports them, I just vote to cancel his vote and I cannot understand the rationale of his arguments.

I heard someone on the radio yesterday say 'I think FF is the only party with the guts to put this country right'. How can you argue with that? If you point out that FF have been running the country for the last good number of years, and got us into this mess the response is the kind of 'ah, everyone is out to get them, the media should keep quiet' nonsense. Kind of 'lets not talk about it, then it isn't a problem'.

I dunno - its a good point, FF do seem to have screwed up the country - at the same time, personally, I don't see much engagement with the issues from the opposition, as I see cheap politicking. Irish voters have a tough choice at the next election - I can see why people don't want to vote for FF but are also afraid to vote for the opposition against them.
There's certainly a gap for an intelligent, socially conscious party.

looksee wrote: »

The fact is that, in spite of everything, the majority want the government we have got. And that is a Democracy.

Yes - it often seems to produce bad results.

My point, is that we must, as voters, all accept responsibility for those results, possibly while actively working to change them.

People before us have toiled long to build a democratic system - our responsibility is to do our bit to inform ourselves and make sure it functions. We can't wash our hands of its results.

There's a big blame game in Ireland at the moment, where everyone blames someone else. We need to shoulder the blame ourselves, and work towards improving the situation, all of us, at whatever level we can. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats a lot of what I see as the problem.

We do act as a nation, and in so far as we do, when the nation is run badly, its all of our faults - and when the standard of living for the poor falls, its all of our faults too.

Jim2007

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I'm totally fed up with people telling me "we" did this that and the other: "we" got Italian bathtubs etc. I didn't! I lived on a very modest wage! I never borrowed anything (other than my mortgage - and that was a reasonable amount). The only carpets in my house are the ones that were there when I bought it.

YOU went nuts, not me! Jeesuz.

Ah, but you did benefit - from artificially low income tax rates for a start

Jo King

mariaalice wrote: »

Where would you start....for example would you be happy to have one teacher to 40 children?




So what do you think is acceptable.

I was in a class with over 50 in it in primary school. What of it?

caseyann

Denerick wrote: »

We were living a lie for too long, living on borrowed German money to live like Kings today. We did not need all that expensive shít we filled our homes with, the Italian bathtubs at 10 grand a pop, or the poncy carpets costing 15 grand for the whole house.

This economic crash was just fate and natures way of telling us to wise up. We bought shít we didn't need with money we didn't have. When that money stopped breaking up on our shores, what did we do? We panicked.

You should change those we's to I,and stop speaking for the people of Ireland myself included in the people of Ireland who did not buy crap and get into debt for stuff not needed.
lol i love that this lumping whole country in together :rolleyes: