Dole recipients Will have to work 19.5 hours

TheReverend

RTÉ News wrote: »

The Government has confirmed that it is to introduce new measures which could see some dole claimants work in the community in return for their benefits.
The proposals could be introduced as early as next month, recipients could be denied dole if they refuse to work.
The aim of the changes is to give opportunities to people who are out of work to maintain and develop their existing skills.
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It is also expected that the changes will reduce welfare fraud by people who are not genuinely unemployed and force them out of the black economy.
As a result, it is hoped that the measures can be implemented on a cost neutral basis, with any extra cost being offset by savings resulting from people who are not genuinely unemployed ceasing to claim because of the new requirements.
It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities.
The proposals would see participants work 19.5 hours a week and receive around €210 in return.
Unlike applicants for job seekers benefit they will not be means tested and they can work part-time outside of the scheme as well.
But if claimants do not turn up for the hours they are expected to work under the scheme, their dole will be stopped.

The changes are being implemented as part of the expansion and development of the Community Services Programme and the Rural Social Scheme.
It is expected that the changes will involve up to 10,000 new participants this year, rising to 40,000 over the course of two years.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0829/welfare.html

Could be a good idea, however people should have some choice in where they work.

Blackjack

TheReverend wrote: »

Could be a good idea, however people should have some choice in where they work.

Fantastic idea - about time something like this was brought in.

MrDarcy

All this is going to achieve is a massive lunge from Unemployment Assistance/Benefit, to Disability Benefit or Disability Allowance. Those on the dole will have medical cards, so going to the GP to get it certified and get their benefit converted into disability allowance of some sort will only cost the state more.

dory

Possibly Mr. Darcy but there are many people out there who would just love a reason to get out of bed in the morning. And hopefully in time some of these GPs will be exposed for giving fake medical certificates. First time I really approve of a government scheme!

MrDarcy

dory wrote: »

Possibly Mr. Darcy but there are many people out there who would just love a reason to get out of bed in the morning. And hopefully in time some of these GPs will be exposed for giving fake medical certificates. First time I really approve of a government scheme!

This country really makes me laugh... It's everything except deal with the actual f*cking problem, no matter what the issue is. The idea itself wouldn't be a bad one in normal economic times, only given the times that we are in, it is a pointless exercise becasue it will not take a sinner off the dole, which is what the objective should be.

Sierra Oscar

MrDarcy wrote: »

All this is going to achieve is a massive lunge from Unemployment Assistance/Benefit, to Disability Benefit or Disability Allowance. Those on the dole will have medical cards, so going to the GP to get it certified and get their benefit converted into disability allowance of some sort will only cost the state more.

Not if the department of social protection decide to clamp down on those abusing certs. In a sense they have already begun clamping down with more and more independent medical officers being drafted in by the department to examine those already on certs to see if they are actually entitled to be on them.

Spacedog

great idea, that aughta get them pesants back where they belong, working slave labour on a famine road!!!

PRSI - is social insurance, it's an insurance policy so that if you're out of work you claim the dole. If you got car insurance and had an accident, and the company said, ok you can have a new car, but you have to pay for it. that's what this is like.

Anyone who thinks PRSI is a tax to pay for bums has been listening to too much Adrian Kennedy.

FFS:rolleyes:

Freiheit

Most people would be happy to do such , provided common sense prevails in placement. Would it require an increase in civil service numbers though to facilitate such?.

A good idea but sadly a straw in the wind. Ireland is bankrupt and this won't change that. A lot of very depressing articles in todays papers.

MrDarcy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not if the department of social protection decide to clamp down on those abusing certs. In a sense they have already begun clamping down with more and more independent medical officers being drafted in by the department to examine those already on certs to see if they are actually entitled to be on them.

I don't see how the confidential information shared between a GP and a patient can be inspected by civil servants for the purposes that you suggest??? If someone does to their GP and says they are suffering from depression or ill health of another sort, who can argue with that???

Nolanger

If they refuse to work and get cut off the dole they can go to the Health Board for money.

straricco

MrDarcy wrote: »

All this is going to achieve is a massive lunge from Unemployment Assistance/Benefit, to Disability Benefit or Disability Allowance. Those on the dole will have medical cards, so going to the GP to get it certified and get their benefit converted into disability allowance of some sort will only cost the state more.

Appalling attitude MrDarcy! I think in a recession you need to give the unemployed the benefit of the doubt, and assume that most would love to be working again! My sister hasn't worked since Jan 09, and its really gettin her down. I only work every 2nd week myself. 19.5 hours a week is less than 3 full days work, it wouldn't make me to to the doctor with my medical card & get a sick note so I could go on disability!!

dory wrote: »

Possibly Mr. Darcy but there are many people out there who would just love a reason to get out of bed in the morning. And hopefully in time some of these GPs will be exposed for giving fake medical certificates. First time I really approve of a government scheme!

Give people back a sense of worth, I totally agree.

thesimpsons

MrDarcy wrote: »

I don't see how the confidential information shared between a GP and a patient can be inspected by civil servants for the purposes that you suggest??? If someone does to their GP and says they are suffering from depression or ill health of another sort, who can argue with that???

thats was second opinions are for. Its common in private industry for employers to question a doctors cert and ask a sick employee to visit another independent doctor. Recently company I'm involved with got every one of its sick employees to visit the company doctor. Surprisinging, 20% of them suddenly got better, another few returned to work after the independent doctor did a review.

Cookie_Monster

thats more than €10 an hour, some kick in the teeth for those on minimum wage...

wiseguy

Excellent

A lot of people are about to get a taste of real "socialism" , nothing like having a faceless government bureaucrat ordering you to work at the job selected by them

I propose in my first 5 year plant to direct the workers towards:

• Cleaning rivers and canals
• Digging holes in mountains and using them for hydro-storage
• Filling in potholes
• Toiling in the fields

Join me comrades in our bright new future :pac:

astrofool

Prsi is anything but insurance, it's a current account to pay for the dole. Insurance would have risk levels attached, and the pay out would be based on what you pay in. I'd also doubt at a lot of those targetted in this scheme have ever paid prsi.

Poly

People should be able to volunteer to be selected too, shows a bit of gumption on their behalf.
When the jobs market picks up, it would be a good thing in your CV for a potential future employer imo.

MrDarcy

straricco wrote: »

Appalling attitude MrDarcy! I think in a recession you need to give the unemployed the benefit of the doubt, and assume that most would love to be working again! My sister hasn't worked since Jan 09, and its really gettin her down. I only work every 2nd week myself. 19.5 hours a week is less than 3 full days work, it wouldn't make me to to the doctor with my medical card & get a sick note so I could go on disability!!



Give people back a sense of worth, I totally agree.

Being on state benefit does not equate with being employed. I've been on the dole, you can just about survive on the dole but you cannot really live, you are just existing week to week.

As long as someone is on 196 Euro a week, they have a serious problem and the state has a serious problem. The whole focus should be on creating sustainable jobs, not fannying around with a scheme that will actually not take a single person off the dole and will create a whole new layer of public sector form fillers and beaurocrats.

If this government wasn't so arrogant and literally lost in an ocean of it's own bullsh*t, and could listen to people who start up businesses, and work with them, we could start creating jobs immediately.

mikemac

Ah, who here is old enough to remember people out building the FÁS wall in villages all over the country? :P
Putting people on projects, any project no matter how useless

Hopefully this scheme will be organized better

the_syco

So along with the WPP1 program, there is now this, giving companies free workers at no cost to them...?

Sierra Oscar

MrDarcy wrote: »

I don't see how the confidential information shared between a GP and a patient can be inspected by civil servants for the purposes that you suggest??? If someone does to their GP and says they are suffering from depression or ill health of another sort, who can argue with that???

An independent medical officer appointed by the department can come in and asses the recipient for themselves. The department already know what the patient is supposedly suffering from, as it is indicated on the certs themselves.

nachoman

Give people back a sense of worth, I totally agree.

Speaking as someone who's been on the dole for 2 years on and off I totally agree with this statement and I think it's an excellent idea if it saves money to help the economy grow again.

wiseguy

the_syco wrote: »

So along with the WPP1 program, there is now this, giving companies free workers at no cost to them...?

What companies? RTE News only mentioned community services and charities

mikemac

If I was temporary staff working for the county council I'd be extremely worried about my job about now.

Or working in a creche which is pretty much a minimum wage job and a demanding one.
Creche owners have a source of free labour here if the new staff have the qualifications

AntiRip

This thread is not as bad as the AH thread on the topic thankfully. It's makes me very sad that there is an overall view that all unemployed people are lazy scumbags, etc, etc.

There has to be a line drawn between people who has always been on the dole (is it 100,000 I don't know) and the misfortunate 350,000 people who has been laid off of work.

I think this is a great idea firstly, for those who have been out of work for years. If they couldn't find a job in the 'boom' years, well here's their change to contribute. People are entitled to their jobseekers benefit for 12 months anyway but after this they also should be offered this work scheme. I'm sure the people who don't want to do it can get their BTEA and up skill so it will also be another incentive for people. All in all a good idea if done properly.

flutered

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not if the department of social protection decide to clamp down on those abusing certs. In a sense they have already begun clamping down with more and more independent medical officers being drafted in by the department to examine those already on certs to see if they are actually entitled to be on them.

i was certified to return to work, when i went to the dole office to sign on they refused to accept my signiture, i was told to go back to my gp, then claim disibility benifit, so this sierra oscar is how they are clamping down, i have had 3 visits from social welfare officials in the last 12 months, as i hollidayed in pourtagal some time ago they must have come to the conclusion that i had been part of a miracle, there is fraud on both sides, BUT this miniscule compared to the fraud been commited in kildare st. and its environs.

MrDarcy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

An independent medical officer can come in and access the recipient for themselves. The department already know what the patient is supposedly suffering from, as it is indicated on the certs themselves.

Nobody has the right to access your private medical records, they are confidential between you and your GP. If I am suffering from depression, and that is certified by my GP, no state medical officer or any other officer can place a different construction upon that diagnosis, he or she is no better qualified than my GP, they are both medical professionals.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there, the whole idea is a woodenheaded idea that will not take a single person off state dependency. You can do what you want with people on the dole, you can send them into other businesses for free, thereby displacing other people with actual jobs and putting them on the dole because they are now too expensive, you can send them up to the Dublin Mountains to supervise car parks for those using the amenities up there, you can send them into outer space for a laugh and let them do a few orbits of the earth before taking them back down again.

If you are still paying them 196 Euro a week, then you haven't actually achieved anything whatsoever, not for the country and not for that person.

Long Term Louth

Poly wrote: »

People should be able to volunteer to be selected too, shows a bit of gumption on their behalf.
When the jobs market picks up, it would be a good thing in your CV for a potential future employer imo.

People can volunteer through the existing CE schemes.

Sierra Oscar

MrDarcy wrote: »

Nobody has the right to access your private medical records, they are confidential between you and your GP.

I said nowhere in my posts that private charts were being accessed. I am saying that your reason for being on certs is stated on the cert itself, which the department receive from you in order for the claim to be processed. Based on that information, the department knows what you are suffering from to in order for you to receive your payments - and can get another medical professional to asses your case. The department is more than well aware that many GP's find it very difficult to turn down requests for certs as there is a very close patient/doctor bond with GP's and their patients.

In fact, it has been argued by many GP's (including some members of the IMO) that local GP's should not asses their own patients to see if they should be recipients of certs or not, and instead an outside medical professional should do it so as to clamp down on the people receiving certs by GP's purely on compassionate grounds instead of strictly medical grounds.

MrDarcy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I said nowhere in my posts that private charts were being accessed. I am saying that your reason for being on certs is stated on the cert itself, which the department receive from you in order for the claim to be processed. Based on that information, the department knows what you are suffering from to in order for you to receive your payments.

Yes, but you implied that a state medical officer can take that information and somehow seek to challenge it or question it. That's a no go area.

I don't want to get bogged down on that particular aspect of it, this proposed scheme is just another punch in the face for those people who are hardworking but on the dole through no fault of their own.

Outrageously stupid ideas such as this should not even be entertained. The only objective that should be given headspace now is a plan that will allow people return themselves to a position where they can earn a wage again. I've been there are there is no life to be had on 196 a week I can assure you of that. Whether you are out doing 19.5 hours a week for the dole or not doing anything, there is no qualitity of life on 196 Euro a week. Also, you are still costing the state 196 Euro a week, what is the point of any exercise that doesn't address that fact???

The figures as we are now seeing, do not lie, the markets are not looking at whatever f*ckheaded scheme we can come up to entertain people on the dole, they are looking at what we are borrowing every month to pay those on the dole and as long as that figure is increasing instead of decreasing, then we have a very serious situation in this country.

Long Term Louth

MrDarcy wrote: »

Nobody has the right to access your private medical records, they are confidential between you and your GP. If I am suffering from depression, and that is certified by my GP, no state medical officer or any other officer can place a different construction upon that diagnosis, he or she is no better qualified than my GP, they are both medical professionals.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there, the whole idea is a woodenheaded idea that will not take a single person off state dependency. You can do what you want with people on the dole, you can send them into other businesses for free, thereby displacing other people with actual jobs and putting them on the dole because they are now too expensive, you can send them up to the Dublin Mountains to supervise car parks for those using the amenities up there, you can send them into outer space for a laugh and let them do a few orbits of the earth before taking them back down again.

If you are still paying them 196 Euro a week, then you haven't actually achieved anything whatsoever, not for the country and not for that person.

You may however present some people with the inititive to work and by doing so, make some not to feel useless, it is easy for people on social welfare to get inot a "rut", sometimes through no fault of their own.

MrDarcy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

...

In fact, it has been argued by many GP's (including some members of the IMO) that local GP's should not asses their own patients to see if they should be recipients of certs or not, and instead an outside medical professional should do it so as to clamp down on the people receiving certs by GP's purely on compassionate grounds instead of strictly medical grounds.

What will end up happening in this country is some poor person will be at the end of their tether and suicidal. They are on the disability for depression, the state insert some other "medical professional", to get this person off the dole, they take their own life and low and behold 3 years later it ends up in the High Court with undisclosed damages paid out to the family and "no admission of liability" on the part of the state...

RichardAnd

feelingstressed wrote: »

If I was temporary staff working for the county council I'd be extremely worried about my job about now.

Or working in a creche which is pretty much a minimum wage job and a demanding one.
Creche owners have a source of free labour here if the new staff have the qualifications

This is my big concern about this idea. It's like the FAS WPP, it gives someone the option of getting free staff courtesy of the state which keeps someone out of work. Other countries have laws about unpaid work, yet we seem to facilitate it.

However, it's early days so I won't judge this until I see a little more.

flutered

Long Term Louth wrote: »

People can volunteer through the existing CE schemes.

there is no vacencys on ce schemes they are all full

WhodahWoodah

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

Long Term Louth

flutered wrote: »

there is no vacencys on ce schemes they are all full

I dont think so see FAS website.

goat2

hopefully the first candidates will bethe ones drawing this money the longest, say five ten yrs, as there was work for all up to 2 yrs ago, and see how they will try to squirm their way out of having to get up for work for a changespongers

Long Term Louth

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

I am unemployed and would have no problem offering my services to such a scheme.

AlekSmart

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTÉ News View Post:

The Government has confirmed that it is to introduce new measures which could see some dole claimants work in the community in return for their benefits.
The proposals could be introduced as early as next month, recipients could be denied dole if they refuse to work.
The aim of the changes is to give opportunities to people who are out of work to maintain and develop their existing skills.
Advertisement

It is also expected that the changes will reduce welfare fraud by people who are not genuinely unemployed and force them out of the black economy.
As a result, it is hoped that the measures can be implemented on a cost neutral basis, with any extra cost being offset by savings resulting from people who are not genuinely unemployed ceasing to claim because of the new requirements.
It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities.
The proposals would see participants work 19.5 hours a week and receive around €210 in return.
Unlike applicants for job seekers benefit they will not be means tested and they can work part-time outside of the scheme as well.
But if claimants do not turn up for the hours they are expected to work under the scheme, their dole will be stopped.

The changes are being implemented as part of the expansion and development of the Community Services Programme and the Rural Social Scheme.
It is expected that the changes will involve up to 10,000 new participants this year, rising to 40,000 over the course of two years.

Yet again,the timing and method of this announcement can be taken to reflect just how serious a measure it really is.

Dáil Eireann on holidays.

No senior Minister or Civil Servant on hand to handle the Media announcement (Eamonn O Cúiv in suitably vacation like apparel does not count).

But probably the most important aspect is the use of words.....the "somes",the "coulds" and at the very end the little bit about voluntary schemes and a relatively small numbers envisaged to take part in this scheme.

The intent is probably good but this measure still illustrates the vast gap of comprehension which exists between Government and Reality in modern Ireland.

flutered

when one workes one is in insurable employment, whe one is in recipt of social welfare one cannot be in insureable employment, also how many public servants will it take to oversee this scheme, who will be in charge of each particular unit, who will give the instructions, a local buisness person cannot tell someone on a ce scheme what to do, who will decide if a perticular person is doing enough, if i am shanghaied onto this lark and some day it is getting on my tits and i give whoever is in charge the finger and tell them go swivel what happens, if i get into a mad rage and start wrecking the joint what happens, if i get injured what happens.

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

Excellent

A lot of people are about to get a taste of real "socialism" , nothing like having a faceless government bureaucrat ordering you to work at the job selected by them

I propose in my first 5 year plant to direct the workers towards:

• Cleaning rivers and canals
• Digging holes in mountains and using them for hydro-storage
• Filling in potholes
• Toiling in the fields

Join me comrades in our bright new future :pac:

Under socialism all that type of work would be done by people who were promenent members in the PDs, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Libertas and IBEC. Mary Harney would be sent to work sweeping the streets while McDowell and Frank Fahey would shine the boots of workers.

flutered

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I dont think so see FAS website.

in my neck of the woods there is none, a lot of the jobs on that website are a figment of some ones imagination, ask around and you will find out.

MrDarcy

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

Spot on. It's like everything else in this Godforsaken f*cking kip. Any chance we could maybe deal with the core problem which is unemployment??? Not a sausage... Let's not even go for solving the core oproblem here, any chance we could maybe even just try to understand the problem a little better before we try to go at it in a logical and rational way???

Nope, this is Ireland, we can't do that over here...

What'll we do then??? Our wisest and brightest in government will always come up with some plan that tries to make the core problem, which has not gone away, actually look like something else, so the optics of the problem appear to be completely different, while the core problem stays there.

Long Term Louth

flutered wrote: »

in my neck of the woods there is none, a lot of the jobs on that website are a figment of some ones imagination, ask around and you will find out.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods but there are some, I have inquired.

D-Generate

Would it not be beneficial for someone working a 40 hour week on minimum wage to sign on and work the 19.5 hours plus work their previous job part time for 19.5 hours. Seems to me that there would be a monetary gain plus medical card and other benefits.
It is a positive step as I know that if I was unfortunate enough to be unemployed I would be seriously worried of losing my mind from not being productive, however it could lead to abuse as per above. Perhaps have it only available to those unemployed 6 months or longer? Stops someone doing an immediate switch to reap the rewards.

katkin

O'Cuiv just came from Dept of Gaeltacht, and Rural Affairs. Unfortunately there is ****all money to give to these groups, FF don't want to isolate these communities, so O'Cuiv gives them this sop.

What a load of bull****. Tourism, creches, older people - our young people and older people aren't worth actually providing proper services for, this will fill the gap then. Tourism - hmm hotels, tourist offices, tourist sites - here's some free workers for ye.

I completely agree with whoever said there earlier that it better be the people on the dole for the last ten years that get put on this first because O'Cuiv and buddies can go **** themselves if they think I'm subsidising some half arsed community bull**** after they ****ed this country up!:mad:

wiseguy

McDougal wrote: »

Under socialism all that type of work would be done by people who were promenent members in the PDs, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Libertas and IBEC. Mary Harney would be sent to work sweeping the streets while McDowell and Frank Fahey would shine the boots of workers.

What no Labour members allowed to be sent to the Gulag

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

What no Labour members allowed to be sent to the Gulag

I'm sure we could find room on the collective farm for Ruairi Quinn

Jessibelle

As a recently unemployed person, I would jump at the chance to do this, but I'd like to think that if implemented, it would be in an area somewhat related to previous employment or in an area of interest to the individual, for example. I wouldn't be much use initially for physical labour, although I'd assume I'd strenghten up over time, but I am good for computer based/science based/community and people based tasks. The only problem I can see with the scheme though is that for the likes of community based projects involving older people and young children, Garda vetting is required, as well as specific training, the time and money involved to get them both may drive costs to the Exchequer up rather than down.

MrDarcy

This concept sounds dangerously close to the poor law union workhouses of the 18th and 19th century, you can imagine the social stigma that will be attached to people taking up these placements or whatever they actually are, to call them positions would imply that they are jobs which they very clearly are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Law_Union

wiseguy

katkin wrote: »

O'Cuiv just came from Dept of Gaeltacht, and Rural Affairs. Unfortunately there is ****all money to give to these groups, FF don't want to isolate these communities, so O'Cuiv gives them this sop.

What a load of bull****. Tourism, creches, older people - our young people and older people aren't worth actually providing proper services for, this will fill the gap then. Tourism - hmm hotels, tourist offices, tourist sites - here's some free workers for ye.

I completely agree with whoever said there earlier that it better be the people on the dole for the last ten years that get put on this first because O'Cuiv and buddies can go **** themselves if they think I'm subsidising some half arsed community bull**** after they ****ed this country up!:mad:

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy

katkin

Jessibelle wrote: »

As a recently unemployed person, I would jump at the chance to do this, but I'd like to think that if implemented, it would be in an area somewhat related to previous employment or in an area of interest to the individual, for example. I wouldn't be much use initially for physical labour, although I'd assume I'd strenghten up over time, but I am good for computer based/science based/community and people based tasks. The only problem I can see with the scheme though is that for the likes of community based projects involving older people and young children, Garda vetting is required, as well as specific training, the time and money involved to get them both may drive costs to the Exchequer up rather than down.

You want to work for a dole payment in an area you were previously employed in? Say goodbye then to any chance of ever getting employed in that area again if people will do it for dole. Makes no economic sense at all.