Views on introducing non-native species for shooting? Irresponsible or acceptable??

Feargal as Luimneach

What are your views on these introductions?

Non-native animals can cause severe problems to ecosystems. Just look at mink and gray squirrel in this country:mad: (not introduced for hunting though).

Introduced Sika deer have hybridized with Red Deer in this country and as such are a threat to them. I believe there are no pure Red Deer left in Wicklow.

Scottish Red Grouse have been introduced to Ulster for shooting. Although Irish Red Grouse are not thought to be a distinct subspecies from Scottish Red Grouse, they are different and these birds could have diluted the Irish Red Grouse stock blood lines.

Non-Native Red Legged partridge are been released. Would it not be better releasing Gray partridge instead??

The list goes on: possible muntjac introduction, turkeys. Have people done research to find out if these animals could damage our wildlife? Or is it the "chance it" approach?

landkeeper

another of your fishing trips i see
i hope nothing takes the bait

It wasn't me!

Grey partridges have been released. There's good work being done there sustaining a population.

Feargal as Luimneach

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Grey partridges have been released. There's good work being done there sustaining a population.

Yip. Fantastic work is being done at Lough Boora. People should be trying to get gray partridge populations set up if possible rather than French Partridge.

Sparks

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Have people done research to find out if these animals could damage our wildlife?

Asking as a non-hunting pro-hunter sort of game eater, how do you research such a thing?

Birdnuts

I actually don't think exotic game birds are much of an issue going on data from Britain that now has the likes of Golden and Lady Amthearst pheasents(indeed the UK is now important for these species survival given the decimation of their populations in their native lands of China etc) breeding in the SE. Wildfowl on the other hand are a different matter with the likes of Ruddy Duck and Canada geese now a real threat to native species and habitats.:(

4gun

when a new species is introduced into an new habitat,where there is no natural predator it can be an ecological disaster,in the case of the game species that were introduced into what were game reserves their numbers were controlled and did not caused major disruption to habitat, its only in the last few decades that deer have become so prevailent through out the country, mainly due to the growth of forestry plantaion, Sika trive in immature pine woods,
the grey squirrel is on e such disaster because the native red is smaller and cannot compete for habitat due to the teritorial nature of the grey
It is possible to introduce animals into an area so long as their impact into the eco system is small, many released birds do not go on to establish populations due to the fact that domestic wild birds are not able to imprint on their young the necessary survival skills on their young, Turkeys are an example of this, the reestablishment of turkey populations in the US and Canada was due only to the release of captured wild birds to new areas ( read link in Turkey thread )
I also read that this is often true for released Pheasants, is all they do is take the strain of wild birds, but for the most part cannot rear their own offspring
as for wild boar it should be called reintroduction as I believe that Ireland once had a population of them( would need verifcation)
It has yet to be conclusively confirmed that Muntjac are present in this country,

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

I actually don't think exotic game birds are much of an issue going on data from Britain that now has the likes of Golden and Lady Amthearst pheasents(indeed the UK is now important for these species survival given the decimation of their populations in their native lands of China etc) breeding in the SE. Wildfowl on the other hand are a different matter with the likes of Ruddy Duck and Canada geese now a real threat to native species and habitats.:(

Similar to the story of the Pére david's deer in China as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A8re_David%27s_Deer
Saving those species has to be a good thing I must admit. However pheasants might not be totally harmless in Ireland. The increasing population of pheasants on Tory Island might be a contributing cause to decrease in the numbers of Corncrake on that Island (from Birdwatch Ireland report on Corncrakes in Donegal 2009).

Feargal as Luimneach

Sparks wrote: »

Asking as a non-hunting pro-hunter sort of game eater, how do you research such a thing?

I don't know. Not introducing the species would be the safer option.

Dusty87

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I don't know. Not introducing the species would be the safer option.

What about eagles etc. They were native. As were boar. Why one and not both. Iv my own opinions on both, just curious of yours?

Grizzly 45

Watching there history documentary World after humans.Intresting point about reintroductions.The Yellowstone nationa l park wolf project.
From a dozen wolves in the national park the number went over 1500 and have spread out over three NW states that border Ystone within a decade.
Now ,it has been suggested that maybe we should bring wolves back to Ireland as well.Considering they were a native species here once as well..That area is three times the size of Ireland..How long before we would have packs of them strolling up O Connell st in Dublin??:eek::D
As for wild turkey,it is bird more suitable to Ireland than the pheasent.Yet since the 1980s when there was a pilot scheme to try and introduce them,they just dont seem to get a foot hold here.So maybe not all invasive species will do as well,as first thought, or survive.

johngalway

Dusty87 wrote: »

What about eagles etc. They were native. As were boar. Why one and not both. Iv my own opinions on both, just curious of yours?

We'll draw a line under that one here. This forum is for discussion of hunting. Since eagles can't be hunted it doesn't fall into the remit of the forum. Aside from that it usually leads to pointless bickering and accusations.

Unless it's shot or hunted it's off topic for the forum. There is a Nature & Bird Watching forum here.

Feargal as Luimneach

Dusty87 wrote: »

What about eagles etc. They were native. As were boar. Why one and not both. Iv my own opinions on both, just curious of yours?

<mod snip>

I don't know much about wild boar, but the habitat mixed of woodland is at a low level in this country so they might not have enough proper habitat here. They all might end up on agricultural farmland. I don't really know whether a re-introduction would be feasible for wild boar.

Grizzly 45

Dont worry about them.
They are quite happy to adapt to human civilisation ,like urban foxes,they will be quite happy to live off surburban gardens and allotments,or fruit orchards.Anything we can eat so can a wild boar and vise versa .Well bar raw acorns,which us humans have to leach out in water for awhile to get rid of the tannic acid.:)
Of course us evil hunters re introduced them here...:rolleyes:.Going by the amount of sightings of them around the country.More like escapees from farms that have gone feral.

moose112

From my experience it seems animal rights activates are all for the introduction of non native species. Our gun club is situated very close to a mink farm and we are over run with mink because of animal rights activates constantly breaking in releasing mink.

It really annoys me that these arrogent self appointed watchdogs think they know more about the countryside than the ignorant (in their minds) locals

sorry about the rant

Ps. If anyone wants proof just type "Laois fur farm" in YouTube and they actually video tape themselves breaking into private property and setting the mink free.

Finished now promise

customrifle

Read on article couple years back in one of the english shooting mags they were on about re introducing wolves in the scottish highlands.
Think it may have been on a private estate they said it was something to do with adding a natural predator to reduce the escalating deer numbers, but you can be sure they were thinkin about the money on offer to go hunting the wolves moreso when their numbers started getting out of control.
Wouldnt fancy bein out for spot of calling and for one of those f#*kers to come running in. He came lookin for dinner and he wouldnt be leaving without it:D

cavan shooter

In relation to introducing non native species into Ireland for hunting, I wouldnt be for it I think its trouble. I would hope we learned from mistakes made in the past such as in Powerscourt in the 1800's and the gifting of grey squirrels as a wedding present (tight fleckers, wouldnt silver been nicer):D

The introduction of anything "Alien" to a habitat can have disastrous effects, you dont have to look at animals look at bind weed, Russian ivy and other floral decorations. The mink was brought in for fur (not hunting) I know but the same goes. No mater how controlled you have it something will escape or as was the case with Mink freed or escaped. Where did rainbow trout come from?? are they native??

Wild boar was prevalent in ireland until man hunted out of existence, but does it have a place in a modern Ireland, it isnt going to remain in the one spot and wait for a hunter to hunt it, no it will re-populate, re-populate and do damage to crops and forestry etc. You cant go for a walk in the woods with boar and pet the cuddly black tusk creatures now can you. Any reintroduction must be very controlled. Hunting of boar on the continent in some instances are done in enclosed forestry.

As for the re introduction of wolf as mentioned (for reasons other than hunting) yes they are native but again there time has run, there isnt enough wildlife to sustain them and hey why bother chase deer when they have easy pickings and can go after sheep or cattle.

As for Turkeys, there is a large population of turkeys in ireland...one of the largest turkey was seen in Offally (Clara area) over the summer and a number exist in Cavan, Donegal, Waterford and Cork they have full protection of the law they cant be touched. They tend to congregate in large numbers an old creole Indian word for such a gathering is "cum mahn"

Irish turkeys arent very intelligent and for the last number of years where seen to co habit and attempt mating with another introduced bird the Green Speckled tit,

Tackleberrywho

moose112 wrote: »

From my experience it seems animal rights activates are all for the introduction of non native species. Our gun club is situated very close to a mink farm and we are over run with mink because of animal rights activates constantly breaking in releasing mink.

It really annoys me that these arrogent self appointed watchdogs think they know more about the countryside than the ignorant (in their minds) locals

sorry about the rant

Ps. If anyone wants proof just type "Laois fur farm" in YouTube and they actually video tape themselves breaking into private property and setting the mink free.

Finished now promise

I wish they were caught arrested and jailed.
Breaking and entering, Endangerment of Irish wildlife by the introduction of a non native species, the list goes on.

Uneducated idiots.
One guy single handedly has killed hundreds of rare bird and animal species by introducing an animal with no predators into an Irish Ecosystem

Them tree huggers really want to go back to school!!

homerhop

The river barrow has a lot of mink on it from that farm in Laois.On a side note to that some of the mink escaped and were not released. I was at a regional meeting about 5 years ago when it was brought up about mink on the river and how workers admitting mink had escaped which caused one member attending getting very irked and stated "these fellas should be keeping their mouths shut and looking after their jobs"

DJandDeid

cavan shooter wrote: »

As for Turkeys, there is a large population of turkeys in ireland...one of the largest turkey was seen in Offally (Clara area) over the summer and a number exist in Cavan, Donegal, Waterford and Cork they have full protection of the law they cant be touched. They tend to congregate in large numbers an old creole Indian word for such a gathering is "cum mahn"

Irish turkeys arent very intelligent and for the last number of years where seen to co habit and attempt mating with another introduced bird the Green Speckled tit,

Love it!!!:D

tiny-nioclas

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I wish they were caught arrested and jailed.
Breaking and entering, Endangerment of Irish wildlife by the introduction of a non native species, the list goes on.

Uneducated idiots.
One guy single handedly has killed hundreds of rare bird and animal species by introducing an animal with no predators into an Irish Ecosystem

Them tree huggers really want to go back to school!!

They did it to a mink farm close to me aswell a good 15 years ago, that finished the mink farm and half the local wildlife population, the little tern population was totally destroyed and never recovered, im no right winger but those bunny huggers deserve the blunt side of a shovel down the back, they havent a clue about the environment, too much supping petrol i'd say

Tackleberrywho

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

They did it to a mink farm close to me aswell a good 15 years ago, that finished the mink farm and half the local wildlife population, the little tern population was totally destroyed and never recovered, im no right winger but those bunny huggers deserve the blunt side of a shovel down the back, they havent a clue about the environment, too much supping petrol i'd say

What ever about the latter, I do beleive they should feel the full extent of the law.
A charge for every mink released.

They poured bake fluid over a guys jeep once trhat I know of, He was away on holidays, as there was a hunt passing by the sabatoeurs dadmaged all 4x4's in the area.

Poor bugger did not even hunt, used the jeep to pull a trailer as part of his building job.

I have no time for criminality. Breaking and entering/trespass is a crime.
Intimadation is also a crime. These guys think it is the norm.

I would never intro a non native species, but lads who let out phezzies and partridge actually feed the foxes.

Thats the ironic situation.
There is none so blind as those who can not see

Grizzly 45

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

What ever about the latter, I do beleive they should feel the full extent of the law.
A charge for every mink released.

They poured bake fluid over a guys jeep once trhat I know of, He was away on holidays, as there was a hunt passing by the sabatoeurs dadmaged all 4x4's in the area.

Poor bugger did not even hunt, used the jeep to pull a trailer as part of his building job.

I have no time for criminality. Breaking and entering/trespass is a crime.
Intimadation is also a crime. These guys think it is the norm.

I would never intro a non native species, but lads who let out phezzies and partridge actually feed the foxes.

Thats the ironic situation.
There is none so blind as those who can not see

And we also have ourselves to blame for some of this .
With attacks by Animal rights terrorists on exposed property becoming the norm,I would also hold the mink farm owners responsible that they had inadiquate security in place to deter or prevent such an attack.FFs if you are a normal farmer nowadays you need a HSE plan for every conciveable accident on your farm.If your slurry tank or silage pit runoff ends in a river and causes a massive wildlife and fish kill there is Hell to pay..Why should a fur farm be any different??You are farming a dangerous product if it gets into the ecosystem it will cause serious damage.CCTV,anti personel fences and perimiter alarms cost money true,but not as much as decades of damage to the wildlife and proper serious fines for allowing this to happen thru negligence.Plus looking at some of those videos the fencing looked a joke!It looked like it wouldnt stop mink let alone antis.
As for hunts,well with stag hunting now "banned" you can be assured the ARTs will turn on coursing and fox hunting with a vengenance.It would behoove hunts to start setting up some in house "security" like a few large lads to keep an eye on vechicles tooled up with cameras to video any suss people or vechicles.We saw what kind of Fukactin the antis can get up to in Clonmel this year with their snared "dying hare" video,and dissappering Swedish/Polish film crew.Could have been prevented by a proper security patrol.The days of us taking a "yerra,nuthin will happen " attitude in fieldsports/farming is over here as well.We have to start getting a bit more proactive in our own security..

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The days of us taking a "yerra,nuthin will happen " attitude in fieldsports/farming is over here as well.We have to start getting a bit more proactive in our own security..

I dont want to go off topic but I am afraid that this attitude is alive and well in the shooting community at local level, When NARGC/RISE organised a meeting in the Lavey Inn in Cavan it was very poorly represented. When I quizzed known members, there answers all based on it doesnt affect us. More and more shooters and the organisations have to get keyed in and proactive on all fronts both animal welfare (as this is) and security, pre-empt the antis, give them no excuses

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We have to start getting a bit more proactive in our own security..

So long as we don't step outside what the law permits, obviously. Armed roadblocks, posse's of large lads looking to teach Anti's a lesson, over-enthusiastic security measures and the like do us a lot more harm than good.

Sparks

In fact, about the best first step might just be to file a written report with the Gardai every time a protestor steps outside the bounds of civil behaviour. It's their right to protest what they disagree with, certainly, and we've no right to stop that any more than they have a right to stop us protesting their world view; but there's nothing in the law or common sense saying that we should just let them walk off with impunity if they damage property, threaten people or defame them.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

pedroeibar1

cavan shooter wrote: »

Where did rainbow trout come from?? are they native??
................ You cant go for a walk in the woods with boar and pet the cuddly black tusk creatures now can you.

Rainbow trout were first introduced to Ireland on the River Bandon back in the 1880's by a local landlord Moreton Frewen who brought them to Innishannon from his place in Wyoming. Back in the early-mid 1900s salmon & char ova were regularly imported for release on Irish rivers/lakes.

As for the cuddly furry creatures, you're not far out, I'm waiting for a child to have its hand taken off by a seal - I've seen mothers giving fish heads to their kids to hand-feed the seals in Dun Laoghaire harbour. :eek:
P

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

So long as we don't step outside what the law permits, obviously. Armed roadblocks, posse's of large lads looking to teach Anti's a lesson, over-enthusiastic security measures and the like do us a lot more harm than good.

We'll keep that when we get to the "Road warrior" stage in societys breakdown.:DBy that stage,I reckon we'll have eaten most of the antis by then....Wonder do they taste like chicken??:D:D:D

But seriously,a good point.However there is nothing from stopping a hunt having some people keeping an eye on vechicles and filming on a public road anyone acting suspiciously.Animal rights terrs are cowards at heart,and wont risk open confrontation unless they are about 20 to 1 odds in favour of them.Better still why not invite the local boys and girls in blue down to a hunt??The antis are always giving out about traffic jams,and TBH the way some people just abandon their jeeps and horseboxes,on small roads they have a point.Nothing like having the presence of law around to make sure both sides behave.

Sparks

moose112 wrote: »

If anyone wants proof just type "Laois fur farm" in YouTube and they actually video tape themselves breaking into private property and setting the mink free.

I don't understand - if they've videotaped themselves breaking in and it's up in the public domain, why haven't they been reported to the Gardai and arrested?
It's not like it hasn't happened very recently with lesser offences...

Grizzly 45

Pretty simple really,there is no identifying info of the animal rights terrorists .
You have a bunch of film of the farm buildings,close and longshots and of mink and of one scumbag in a balaclava,combats and Doc Martins and some ex army jacket opening cages.:mad: Not exactly much help for positive ID for the Gardai. Only thing is Berniejustwright who posted this channel is Bernie Wright of HSA fame and general clearing house of animal rights activity in Ireland.
OTHO the Numpties tearing around Tipp have their dopey faces and car regs in plain view.:rolleyes::rolleyes:.Should be an easy cop that Guv!:D

Sparks

Er grizzly, you're about as anonymous on youtube as you are here. So if someone sent in a formal written complaint, they could find whomever uploaded that video and sit down with them for a few questions.

johngalway

I feel a lemming like incident coming on...

I think Sparks brought up one of the most relevant questions I've heard in a very long time. How do you assess possible damage in a pre introduction scenario. I also don't have the answer to that.

Moving on to my opinion about all this, from a hunting point of view I would like to see more huntable species in this country. Turkeys, more deer species, wild boar, and so forth.

I don't know the law on it so I don't go and do it. Most things are forbidden so I'm guessing someone has written that species can't be introduced.

It's kind of hard to call something irresponsible when it's outcome isn't known, or can't be proven. It's also hard to call it a good idea for the same reasons.

Either way, I won't be partaking in it

If the cash situation ever improves here at JG mansions I'll be looking into "hen houses" for ducks. Native birds but that'll be my bit of interfering done, unless I see another good idea.

Traumadoc

When do non-native species like the rabbit become considered native?
Is the mink now a native species?

johngalway

Traumadoc wrote: »

When do non-native species like the rabbit become considered native?
Is the mink now a native species?

There are also questions over the Red Fox status.

jwshooter

the biggest legalized crime against wild life in ireland and been the release of raptors in the national parks .

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Er grizzly, you're about as anonymous on youtube as you are here. So if someone sent in a formal written complaint, they could find whomever uploaded that video and sit down with them for a few questions.

Were it so simple in these cases Sparks:(.
This lot you can be sure have coverd their tracks so well and can do so in ways you and I couldnt think of.If it was so how come the Polish or Swedish film crew of the dying hare arent having a chat with the Gardai[Maybe they did.Fair dues then to The Gardai,and Interpol,and respective LEO of those countries chasing up this]
However,I get the feeling that with more serious crime being prevailent in Ireland and in those countries as well,releasing mink,and wrecking a few paint jobs on cars with brake fluid and gluing the odd lock,or painting the shop window of a furrier ,or sending people mass cards rates pretty low on the Garda crime pirority list.
Thats why this lot keep it low key here...It amounts to petty vandalism that could be explained or pleaded away if caught as "youthful high jinks" and first offence of Tarquin and Joquasta Middleclass college kids by any decent defence lawyer hired by "Doddy" The respectable owner of Ilootalot manor on Havemore Ave:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Until there is actual serious property damage or GBH to somone,this will not be taken seriously by the PTB. The fact that our enviroment has been damaged as much as a toxic chemical spill as by a mass mink release is beyond comprehension.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Were it so simple in these cases Sparks:(

Grizzly, it's not really rocket science. We're not talking about highly trained people here; but those in the police departments which handle these cases are.

The real obstacle is that someone has to report it and most people just want that to be someone else's problem.

This lot you can be sure have coverd their tracks so well and can do so in ways you and I couldnt think of.

Speak for yourself

Until there is actual serious property damage or GBH to somone,this will not be taken seriously by the PTB.

It won't be taken seriously by the PTB until someone complains about it seriously. As in, formal written complaints, and someone willing to see it through to the courtroom. Until then, it's just seen as wasting Garda time from their point of view.

Tackleberrywho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkKbk_R8Is

Is this evidence? or could people say it was staged??

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Grizzly, it's not really rocket science. We're not talking about highly trained people here; but those in the police departments which handle these cases are.

Thats what YOU think Sparks..Then you have a very naive and foolish idea of what these people are capable of.Some of them are exellent electronic technicans,computor engineers chemists,engineers etc.You wont find many unemployed doleis in their ranks.
Seeing that a bunch of 20 somthings in ALF ran rings around the FBI and ATFE for close on a decade with their firebomb campaign,and were brought in rather by their own shopping on them to get plea bargins.I would consider them more than a match for our police forces.Not saying our local lot are in this category,but they could have the potential,and certainly have the contacts and resources to do this.

The real obstacle is that someone has to report it and most people just want that to be someone else's problem.

So you dont think the owners of the fur farm didnt bother reporting this??Or want to follow this thru??

Speak for yourself

Now ,now never underestimate yourself!!:);)

It won't be taken seriously by the PTB until someone complains about it seriously. As in, formal written complaints, and someone willing to see it through to the courtroom. Until then, it's just seen as wasting Garda time from their point of view.

AND for the PTB to belive a crime has been comitted,AND for there to be a waterproof case with a 100% possibility of conviction,AND have irrefutable evidence to convict,AND want to use police time on a crime,that happened 9 years ago ,AND has been posted by a cut out on youtube,who most certainly is clever enough to say it was in her letterbox or PO box in the dead of night,and is well known to the Gardai for animal rights capers,AND is known by the Gardai,and G2[proably] PSNI,[then the RUC] proably MI6,the fieldsports bodies for associating with a known renegade Loyalist subversive.
And the only video evidenceis in a public domain with a disgiused figure.
I can seed a lot of Garda time spent on this one!!Breaking up drug gangs or shipments...Twaddle! Deal with this top pirority!!

Grizzly 45

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkKbk_R8Is

Is this evidence? or could people say it was staged??

No evidence at all really.It proves nothing,not even that ALF carried it out.No one claims the action as an ALF action on the video.The claim came in later thru a 3rd party.The pouplar peoples front of Judea could claim it then as well.:( No sign of a crime being comitted,no footage of how the ALF got into the farm,no footage of the ALF damaging property,they open the cages,dont smash them up,and the outside footage of the mink,well for all we see they could be in an outdoor containment pen.

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No evidence at all really.It proves nothing,not even that ALF carried it out.No one claims the action as an ALF action on the video.The claim came in later thru a 3rd party.The pouplar peoples front of Judea could claim it then as well.:( No sign of a crime being comitted,no footage of how the ALF got into the farm,no footage of the ALF damaging property,they open the cages,dont smash them up,and the outside footage of the mink,well for all we see they could be in an outdoor containment pen.

That was my thinking, PROOF is often very hard to PROVE

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

the biggest legalized crime against wild life in ireland and been the release of raptors in the national parks .

Because they will bring down numbers of foxes, rabbits, hooded crows, rooks, jackdaws!

Half-cocked

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Because they will bring down numbers of foxes, rabbits, hooded crows, rooks, jackdaws!

And think of all the poor defencless invertebrates (slugs, snails, earthworms, beetles etc) that those big evil introduced Red Kites are mass murdering;););)

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Because they will bring down numbers of foxes, rabbits, hooded crows, rooks, jackdaws!

<mod snip> there is a bit of a push on to ban the shooting of grouse in ireland .

i know there is another committee been put together to look at (TALK) about this .
so tell me why do the npws, the bird watch groups think its acceptable release raptors on to our mountains and then look for a ban on shooting grouse .

it is the very same as releasing seals on the slaney and banning salmon fishing .i have never heard of a hen harrier killing a fox have you .
if the hundreds of thousands that have been spent on this useless raptor project ,had have been put into policing wildlife crime or a native grouse project ,it would have caused a lot less bad feeling and helped a native bird .instead of making them a meal for a imported raptor

Vegeta

johngalway wrote: »

I feel a lemming like incident coming on...

I think Sparks brought up one of the most relevant questions I've heard in a very long time. How do you assess possible damage in a pre introduction scenario. I also don't have the answer to that.

Moving on to my opinion about all this, from a hunting point of view I would like to see more huntable species in this country. Turkeys, more deer species, wild boar, and so forth.

I don't know the law on it so I don't go and do it. Most things are forbidden so I'm guessing someone has written that species can't be introduced.

It's kind of hard to call something irresponsible when it's outcome isn't known, or can't be proven. It's also hard to call it a good idea for the same reasons.

Either way, I won't be partaking in it .

My thoughts exactly, I like hunting and so would enjoy hunting varied species BUT there is no way in hell I'd try and release something as I have no clue what the consequences may be.

cavan shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

<mod snip> there is a bit of a push on to ban the shooting of grouse in ireland .

i know there is another committee been put together to look at (TALK) about this .
so tell me why do the npws, the bird watch groups think its acceptable release raptors on to our mountains and then look for a ban on shooting grouse .

it is the very same as releasing seals on the slaney and banning salmon fishing .i have never heard of a hen harrier killing a fox have you .
if the hundreds of thousands that have been spent on this useless raptor project ,had have been put into policing wildlife crime or a native grouse project ,it would have caused a lot less bad feeling and helped a native bird .instead of making them a meal for a imported raptor

I have to disagree, raptors and grouse have survived beside each other for thousands of years on mountains in ireland and scotland, as did buzzards and the red kite. The grouse would have been extinct years ago before any hunting for "sport" was in vogue including big bags.

The man that hunted for food and food alone understood the fine balance .

Saying that the release of the raptors is a legalised crime is a very provocative statement but is it not redressing the balance especially caused by man, when you consider the avian vermin all over the place.

That reminds me of a club member years ago that made a statement that all members should shoot hawks and the like, funny he isnt a member anymore not because of his statement, but because he did fk nothing, giving out about vermin, about pheasants but never gave a vermin return or worked on pens or did a vermin drive

I was tortured catching greys and mags but since the buzzard moved in I am not trapping as much yet my pheasants and partridge are doing fine.

I honestly belive you can live with them, and they are beautiful to see. Presently its mink that I have declared war on and thats the priority

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

the biggest legalized crime against wild life in ireland and been the release of raptors in the national parks .

Rubbish - these raptors were native and wiped out by human ignorance. There are also major predators of vermin like foxes and crows as has already been proven from material recovered from the first breeding pair of goldies in Donegal!!

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

<mod snip> there is a bit of a push on to ban the shooting of grouse in ireland .

i know there is another committee been put together to look at (TALK) about this .
so tell me why do the npws, the bird watch groups think its acceptable release raptors on to our mountains and then look for a ban on shooting grouse .

it is the very same as releasing seals on the slaney and banning salmon fishing .i have never heard of a hen harrier killing a fox have you .
if the hundreds of thousands that have been spent on this useless raptor project ,had have been put into policing wildlife crime or a native grouse project ,it would have caused a lot less bad feeling and helped a native bird .instead of making them a meal for a imported raptor

I suggest you take a drive around any upland area in Ireland. Sitka spruce and overgrazing is much in evidence = no habitat for grouse:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

cavan shooter wrote: »

I have to disagree, raptors and grouse have survived beside each other for thousands of years on mountains in ireland and scotland, as did buzzards and the red kite. The grouse would have been extinct years ago before any hunting for "sport" was in vogue including big bags.

The man that hunted for food and food alone understood the fine balance .

Saying that the release of the raptors is a legalised crime is a very provocative statement but is it not redressing the balance especially caused by man, when you consider the avian vermin all over the place.

That reminds me of a club member years ago that made a statement that all members should shoot hawks and the like, funny he isnt a member anymore not because of his statement, but because he did fk nothing, giving out about vermin, about pheasants but never gave a vermin return or worked on pens or did a vermin drive

I was tortured catching greys and mags but since the buzzard moved in I am not trapping as much yet my pheasants and partridge are doing fine.

I honestly belive you can live with them, and they are beautiful to see. Presently its mink that I have declared war on and thats the priority

Excellent post CS - In the past year I've been to Kenya and Zimbabwe on conservation volunteer projects. The skies in Africa(even in big cities like Nairobi) are filled with eagles, kites, vultures etc. yet game birds like, quail, bustards, francolins, guinea fowl etc. are amazingly abundant. !!:)

jwshooter

Birdnuts wrote: »

I suggest you take a drive around any upland area in Ireland. Sitka spruce and overgrazing is much in evidence = no habitat for grouse:rolleyes:

i would spent more time on the up lands than most on hear ...you are correct about the loss of habitat ..so who release raptors to add to the problem .

its a bit like the magpie debate a while back .

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

i would spent more time on the up lands than most on hear ...you are correct about the loss of habitat ..so who release raptors to add to the problem .

its a bit like the magpie debate a while back .

Please refer to my earlier posts - the healthiest populations of grouse in Ireland correspond to equally healthy populations of raptors ie Slieve Blooms, Cavan/Monaghan uplands and the Wicklows Mtns. In any case the lack of habitat makes this debate in many ways totally pointless:rolleyes: