Giving up pensionable S & S

wingnut

Anyone know what the implications of giving up pensionable Supervision & Substitution is? I'm thinking of giving it up but have heard that if you give it up and take it up again it is no longer pensionable?

Apart from the money you get for year how much would you loose out in pension entitlements.

TheDriver

As far as I remember, once you leave pensionable, you can't sign up and have it back. You then join the scheme on a year to year basis.

gaeilgegrinds1

We were told what TheDriver just said, sucks big time. Hardly worth it given what we get after tax really.

Toto Wolfcastle

I didn't realise that this was the case but I'm not doing it anyway. No room on my timetable. I couldn't risk having a 9 class day.

implausible

My tuppence-worth would be to keep doing it while we're being paid for it. I've a funny feeling it won't be around too long:rolleyes:

wingnut

I get that once your out your out. Any idea how much it would add to your pension if you were doing it for say 30 years. I have a very busy year ahead and on good hours so wouldn't mind doing without the hassle but afraid i might regret it in the long term.

rainbowtrout

I bailed out this year, I'm sick of it. Inevitably the day where I only have 4 classes I don't get any supervision, but the day where I have only one free class I come in to see my name up on the board, and plenty of part time staff free at that time that could do with the hours (and would like the hours). I don't care about the pensionable bit either, S&S doesn't amount to much at the end of the year, and as I have 30 years to go in teaching (if I go the distance) I can't see how I would be doing S&S for that long, if indeed it lasts that long. The other thing is pension is 40/80s final salary (assuming full years worked), so I guess it goes on what is on your P60 when you retire. I reckon I can live without S&S being included. If I'm relying on that in 30 years time to give me a reasonable pension I reckon my problems are far bigger than wondering about opting in or opting out.

I think I'm going to enjoy going in this year and not having to look at the board to see if I have been nabbed for supervision, so I can get some work done.. or freezing my ass off in winter doing my lunch duty outside.

TheDriver

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think I'm going to enjoy going in this year and not having to look at the board to see if I have been nabbed for supervision, so I can get some work done.. or freezing my ass off in winter doing my lunch duty outside.

And not receive roughly 800 euro in July. Then its all worth it.
We nominate 2 periods a week that we cold be caught so obviously we pick the easier days

implausible

TheDriver wrote: »

And not receive roughly 800 euro in July. Then its all worth it.
We nominate 2 periods a week that we cold be caught so obviously we pick the easier days

I'd be inclined to agree. The yard is a pain in the ass, but I've usually forgot about it when the money comes in. We nominate 2, sometimes 3, so we've a good idea when we're going to get 'caught'. I keep threatening not to do it, but I can always think of something to spend the money on.:cool:

As for pensionability, it's worth feck all in the long run. It's a tiny percentage of our wages, so same for pension. Rainbowtrout is right in that you really wouldn't want to be relying on it.

TheDriver

however I have heard from some sources that if you re in the pensionable section, they will have trouble taking the scheme away from you because you have signed up for something til your retirement unlike those who are year to year

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

And not receive roughly 800 euro in July. Then its all worth it.
We nominate 2 periods a week that we cold be caught so obviously we pick the easier days

It doesn't work like that in my place although I know that's how it works in most other places. If it worked like that in my school I'd have probably kept it on. Basically we can be nabbed for S&S in any of our free classes. It always seems to happen the day I'm on break/lunch duty which is a bit crap. So it can mean a barren spell for about a month and then getting hit with four in one week. We have a whole host of other problems with S&S anyway, so I'd prefer to see the part-timers get it, some of them get very little S&S when they should get the most.

At least three other permanent/CID staff opted out with me this week who have been in it as long.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

however I have heard from some sources that if you re in the pensionable section, they will have trouble taking the scheme away from you because you have signed up for something til your retirement unlike those who are year to year

As in, you can go back in again and have it pensionable???

I'll wait until I'm 3 years off retirement and opt in again!!

Toto Wolfcastle

In my school all the periods are put on the board and your name is drawn out out of a hat. You choose a period when your name is called. With 3 8 class days on my timetable this year I wasn't willing to risk there being nothing left for me other than on those 8 class days. Pensionable or not, I may opt back in at some stage, but for the moment I'm out. If it was as easy as picking 2 periods a week and handing them over I would have done it.

spurious

That's how they do it in our place too.
I never joined it.

TheDriver

rainbowtrout wrote: »

As in, you can go back in again and have it pensionable???

I'll wait until I'm 3 years off retirement and opt in again!!

sorry, you go back in and its never pensionable again but rather year to year.

I thought its in the circular that you can only be caught for up to 2 classes per week and you must be available at those times. The Croke Park agreement wanted to make that 3.

spurious

The classes in our place are an hour long. This scheme was never thought out properly.

As part of my post duties, I had to assign deputy classes last year. We operate the nominated class periods system. Some people were never being caught and others were caught nearly every week, though at the end of the year they all got paid the same. It would have been cheaper overall in terms of hours to the school to just pay part-timers and Dippers to do it as it was done.

gaeilgegrinds1

Janeybabe, there is actually sense to that system! We get told and many get their half day taken off them as a result. One of the girls was not in until 4th class last year but was on first...when she was on...and when she was not she was SO cross. I hate s & s...

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

sorry, you go back in and its never pensionable again but rather year to year.

I thought its in the circular that you can only be caught for up to 2 classes per week and you must be available at those times. The Croke Park agreement wanted to make that 3.

ya as far as i know it is, but they never seem to operate normally where I work.

spurious wrote: »

The classes in our place are an hour long. This scheme was never thought out properly.

As part of my post duties, I had to assign deputy classes last year. We operate the nominated class periods system. Some people were never being caught and others were caught nearly every week, though at the end of the year they all got paid the same. It would have been cheaper overall in terms of hours to the school to just pay part-timers and Dippers to do it as it was done.

What happens (this is to all teachers) where each teacher has signed up for a class period but there are two classes to be supervised at this time. Are multiple teachers signed up for the same free period for supervision?

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Janeybabe, there is actually sense to that system! We get told and many get their half day taken off them as a result. One of the girls was not in until 4th class last year but was on first...when she was on...and when she was not she was SO cross. I hate s & s...

sounds similar to our place. I've lost a lot of half days and time to get stuff done due to getting S&S at the end of a block of free classes.

Toto Wolfcastle

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Janeybabe, there is actually sense to that system! We get told and many get their half day taken off them as a result. One of the girls was not in until 4th class last year but was on first...when she was on...and when she was not she was SO cross. I hate s & s...

I know that there is sense in the system. It's as good a system as there can be for the S&S scheme. It just doesn't suit when, like me, your timetable is limiting. If I had gone in there and been picked after all my preferred times were taken I wouldn't have been able to go back and tell them that I wasn't interested in it any more.

Pwpane

I'm confused by all your different arrangements for the S&S.

As far as I always understood, each teacher offers the principal 3 class times per week out of which the principal chooses 2. Then that teacher can be called once only per week during either of those times. The teacher should be informed at 9 am of the relevant day if they are required (not always feasible in practice).

That's how substitution works in our school and always has.

As for supervision of the yard, we offer either one half hour or two 15 min slots at our own chosen times per week. Some adjustment may be made if necessary but with the teacher's agreement.

The two timetables, of substitution and of supervision, are then put on display in the staffroom.

How can you operate if you don't know which are your supervision and substitution times???

Check the original scheme, have a union meeting in the school and sort it!

(Easier said than done, I know, but it's very difficult for a principal to deny the whole staff when what they're asking for is correct and based on the actual agreement.)

Another sting in the tail of the S&S scheme is that if you leave it, you lose the contributions you made towards pension and can't reclaim them.

TheDriver

in our place, you nominate 5 and 2 are taken from it. Its amazing how many staff members then forget their allocated times throughout the year!!

rainbowtrout

Pwpane wrote: »

I'm confused by all your different arrangements for the S&S.

As far as I always understood, each teacher offers the principal 3 class times per week out of which the principal chooses 2. Then that teacher can be called once only per week during either of those times. The teacher should be informed at 9 am of the relevant day if they are required (not always feasible in practice).

That's how substitution works in our school and always has.

As for supervision of the yard, we offer either one half hour or two 15 min slots at our own chosen times per week. Some adjustment may be made if necessary but with the teacher's agreement.

The two timetables, of substitution and of supervision, are then put on display in the staffroom.

How can you operate if you don't know which are your supervision and substitution times???

Check the original scheme, have a union meeting in the school and sort it!

(Easier said than done, I know, but it's very difficult for a principal to deny the whole staff when what they're asking for is correct and based on the actual agreement.)

Another sting in the tail of the S&S scheme is that if you leave it, you lose the contributions you made towards pension and can't reclaim them.

In theory that is all very simple, but my school being an example of an 'alternative arrangement' it doesn't always work.

Regarding your union point. My school has two unions. Most of the teachers that do S&S belong to one union. Most of them are also the part-time teachers. They will take as many classes as are given to them to earn a bit extra. It's hard for them to say no because they want to keep their jobs/not have a cut in hours. This culture still exists in schools. We also have other issues surrounding S&S that I can't post here.

If I had a euro for all the union meetings that have been held to 'sort' problems I could retire.

As for knowing when your S&S classes are in my school. Well generally we don't get put on for classes before our first timetabled class of the day (well I don't because I don't answer my phone at half 8 in the morning if I see the DP's number coming up on it). If they're really stuck and you live close by, the DP might ring and ask you to come in, if they need cover for first class. But other than that, when you come in in the morning you look at the board in the staffroom where supervision is put up for the day and see if you're down for any of your free classes and if you're me you go 'FCUK!!!! That was my only free class today, and I had planned to do photocopying then and today is my lunch duty day too' or if you're one of the part time staff you go 'Fcuk sake, I'm on 10 hours and have got nothing this week and X got 5 classes of supervision yesterday, and 3 more today, it's not fair'.

In the end my favourite day of the week usually ended up being the day where I had no free classes as I couldn't be caught for supervision.

As far as lunch and break duty went that was the fairest: a rota was drawn up at the start of the year and we got a designated area for one lunch and one break during the week for the year.

spurious

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What happens (this is to all teachers) where each teacher has signed up for a class period but there are two classes to be supervised at this time. Are multiple teachers signed up for the same free period for supervision?

In our school yes, for some periods.
There, we operate a rota, week one teacher A will get it, week two teacher B and so on.
Of course Teacher B always feels they are being 'done' and insists on seeing the records. I hate the S&S system - causes no end of grief.

I much prefer to give a Dipper or part-timer extra classes, which I end up having to do anyway if there is something major on and a lot of teachers out at things.

Toto Wolfcastle

It just seems that there are loads of different systems depending on your school, and some of them seem rubbish. No way would I be signing up to do random classes depending on when I'm needed.

Pwpane

janeybabe wrote: »

It just seems that there are loads of different systems depending on your school, and some of them seem rubbish. No way would I be signing up to do random classes depending on when I'm needed.

I agree. If that's the way it operated, I'd be out of it too.

I still can't get over the fact that schools are not following the scheme as laid out. It's very specific. It's no wonder the DES figured we didn't need 'all that money' to run the schools and reduced the sub supplied if teachers are holding the schools together for no pay.

And why doesn't having a union meeting work? Are the staff not united enough to mind their own backs? If the staff are united, two unions or not, then a rep brings the wishes of the entire staff to the principal. It's a scheme for the entire school, not just for part-timers, it affects anyone who wishes to earn some extra few bob.

So much extra work is being put on teachers now. Some boundaries need attention eg national agreements or you end up scurrying around like an ant. What happened to being a professional, not a dogsbody?

rainbowtrout

Pwpane wrote: »

I agree. If that's the way it operated, I'd be out of it too.

I still can't get over the fact that schools are not following the scheme as laid out. It's very specific. It's no wonder the DES figured we didn't need 'all that money' to run the schools and reduced the sub supplied if teachers are holding the schools together for no pay.

And why doesn't having a union meeting work? Are the staff not united enough to mind their own backs? If the staff are united, two unions or not, then a rep brings the wishes of the entire staff to the principal. It's a scheme for the entire school, not just for part-timers, it affects anyone who wishes to earn some extra few bob.

So much extra work is being put on teachers now. Some boundaries need attention eg national agreements or you end up scurrying around like an ant. What happened to being a professional, not a dogsbody?

We get paid for all the classes we cover, whether it's 1 per week or 8 per week. I'm not going to defend it anymore because I don't agree with it, I'm just stating what goes on in my school.

There are a lot of other issues within the school, you probably work in a nice school where the staff is united and under one union. If you were in my school for only a week you'd soon see the problems. So it's all very well saying get your union to sort it out, but it's not that simple. It's also mainly part-timers who do the supervision in my school. Very few permanent staff are involved.

Pwpane

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We get paid for all the classes we cover, whether it's 1 per week or 8 per week. I'm not going to defend it anymore because I don't agree with it, I'm just stating what goes on in my school.

There are a lot of other issues within the school, you probably work in a nice school where the staff is united and under one union. If you were in my school for only a week you'd soon see the problems. So it's all very well saying get your union to sort it out, but it's not that simple. It's also mainly part-timers who do the supervision in my school. Very few permanent staff are involved.

Ok, I was talking about the basic scheme where you only supervise one class per week, rather than the add-on where you also volunteer to take extra paid classes. Bad enough doing the first, in my opinion!

And yes, I do work in a nice school - point taken. But I didn't mean 'get the union to sort it' but use the banner of the union to sort it. In other words, if the whole staff, or group within the staff (eg all people who do the S&S), feel strongly about something legitimate then the union rep should represent them to the management - with everything in writing and minuted. Then no one can be singled out as it's the group putting it forward and the rep is only bringing the message. But it's strong, if it's the feeling of the whole group. In justice, the principal would have to address the dissatisfaction and at least ameliorate it. That's assuming of course that the part-timers are part of a union...

I do know that nothing is simple, especially when staffroom politics are involved, but if people feel strongly about something then it can be made simple.

rainbowtrout

Pwpane wrote: »

Ok, I was talking about the basic scheme where you only supervise one class per week, rather than the add-on where you also volunteer to take extra paid classes. Bad enough doing the first, in my opinion!

And yes, I do work in a nice school - point taken. But I didn't mean 'get the union to sort it' but use the banner of the union to sort it. In other words, if the whole staff, or group within the staff (eg all people who do the S&S), feel strongly about something legitimate then the union rep should represent them to the management - with everything in writing and minuted. Then no one can be singled out as it's the group putting it forward and the rep is only bringing the message. But it's strong, if it's the feeling of the whole group. In justice, the principal would have to address the dissatisfaction and at least ameliorate it. That's assuming of course that the part-timers are part of a union...

I do know that nothing is simple, especially when staffroom politics are involved, but if people feel strongly about something then it can be made simple.

This just does not happen in my school. We've had the union (top guys not just the school rep) in over far bigger issues and have had no luck. Very, very demoralising.

Pwpane

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This just does not happen in my school. We've had the union (top guys not just the school rep) in over far bigger issues and have had no luck. Very, very demoralising.

Don't know what to say....

Talk about not being able to sack a bad teacher - what are you supposed to do about a bad principal?

I still think your only hope is solidarity. For personal support as well as professional support.

Any hope of support from the board of management? Any letter to them would have to go through the principal first which may precipitate action. I think a principal's decision that adversely affects the staff can be appealed to the board. The staff reps could arrange for someone to outline the case to the board personally, eg the union rep or the staff reps themselves. Now in our school, there would be outrage at the idea of a union rep attending a BOM meeting but I think you'd be entitled to choose your own rep for the meeting and that person could be the union rep so that again it's not personalised.

Any of that requires a lot of energy and determination, and someone has to spearhead it and that could be a problem in itself. Maybe the S&S isn't important enough to go through that, but maybe some of your other issues are. And maybe, just the fact that you are determinedly going down the route would be enough to shift things.

My sympathies - not that they're any use to you...