Irish want stronger European economic governance

Scofflaw

Irish public opinion has shifted sharply in favour of stronger EU economic governance, according to Eurobarometer poll results published today. Along with the Finns, Ireland showed a 13% rise in those who want stronger European measures and coordination to combat the economic crisis, with a total of 77% in favour.

When asked how they felt about the national economic situation, 95% of Irish people polled think things are very or rather bad – as compared to an EU average of 77%. The most pessimistic of all are the Greeks (98%) and the Hungarians (96%). When asked about the national employment situation, 97% of Irish people polled were pessimistic, third most gloomy in the EU, behind the Greeks and the Spanish. The overall EU average was 83%. On the other hand, the Swedes are the least pessimistic about their national economy in the EU, at 26%.

Even while remaining bleak about the economy, Irish people polled were becoming more positive about the next 12 months - almost a quarter believe things will improve, a rise of 7 points on the previous Eurobarometer poll. And there was a fall in numbers who thought that things would get worse, down 17 points to 37%.

On the more classic Eurobarometer questions regarding support for the EU and its institutions, Ireland continues to show strong support, with 66% believing that EU membership is a good thing, although this is down 6% from autumn 2009. The most positive are Luxembourgers at 70% followed by the Dutch at 69% and then Ireland and Denmark at 66%. The EU average for this question is 49%.

On other matters, a high proportion (72%) of Irish respondents believe that support for research and development policies is important (EU average 59%).

Ireland was in second place with 66% for agreeing that it was important to strengthen the e-economy by developing ultra-fast broadband in the EU. The EU average was 46%.

The 'Standard' Eurobarometer is carried out every 6 months. In Ireland, approximately 1000 face to face interviews were conducted in May 2010. The previous poll, which it is compared with, was conducted in October 2009.

More summary results and tables here

Interesting - note that "governance" is not the same as "government". That is, the majority are not looking for the EU to determine the Irish budget, but to set ground rules and oversight on the Irish government's setting of the budget. The details:

1. EU Member States should work together more in order to take measures to combat the financial and economic crisis: Yes 86%, No 8% all EU / Yes 80%, No 13% Ireland

2. Whether stronger coordination of economic and financial policies among all the EU Member States would be effective or not to combat the current crisis: Yes 75%, No 14% / Yes 77%, No 9% Ireland

3. Whether the surveillance and supervision by the EU of the activities of the most important international financial groups would be effective or not to combat the current crisis: Yes 73%, No 16% Ireland

Those are very strong figures in favour of "EU interference" in our budget-setting process. I wonder what the figures would have been like in, say, 2002?

cordially,
Scofflaw

liammur

How times have changed, considering the difficulty with the Lisbon treaty.

I for one, would give Europe as much power as possible.

Finnbar01

I despair, I really do. To get the people to vote yes for lisbon, we were told a lie that the treaty would create jobs.

Now the public believe that closer governance by eu commissioners will lift us out of our economic crisis. :rolleyes:

liammur

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I despair, I really do. To get the people to vote yes for lisbon, we were told a lie that the treaty would create jobs.

Now the public believe that closer governance by eu commissioners will lift us out of our economic crisis. :rolleyes:

Few believed that the treaty would create jobs, that's not what the treaty was about at all.
Few also believe that EU commissioners will lift us out of our economic crisis, however, they may not get us into 1 so deep so quickly.

Permabear

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Brussels Sprout

I for one welcome our new European overlords

RealityCheck

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your dead right the horse has already bolted.

Its surely unlikely we would be stupid enough to make the same mistakes again, in the unlikely event our economy recovers some time this century.

However, I feel that once the bond markets have seen through us and leave us to the wolves, it will be the EU/IMF that will be left to bail us out (to a degree). It will be the EU and IMF that will be pulling the strings here, whether to our benefit or not.

liammur

RealityCheck wrote: »

Its surely unlikely we would be stupid enough to make the same mistakes again, in the unlikely event our economy recovers some time this century.

.

Want to bet?

RealityCheck

liammur wrote: »

Want to bet?

I suppose it would'nt be the first time alright .

demonspawn

This is bulls**t to be quite honest. Just another way for the heads in the EU to try to convince the Irish people how much we need them. At least Hitler used the military when he tried to take over Europe. We could see what was coming.

I guess it's true what they say, the pen is far mightier than the sword.

Anyone else think it's strange that the ECB is just a reincarnation of the Bundesbank which is in turn a reincarnation of the Reichsbank? Makes me wonder who really won WWII.

Scofflaw

demonspawn wrote: »

This is bulls**t to be quite honest. Just another way for the heads in the EU to try to convince the Irish people how much we need them. At least Hitler used the military when he tried to take over Europe. We could see what was coming.

I guess it's true what they say, the pen is far mightier than the sword.

Anyone else think it's strange that the ECB is just a reincarnation of the Bundesbank which is in turn a reincarnation of the Reichsbank? Makes me wonder who really won WWII.

Save the Fourth Reich stuff for the Conspiracy Theories forum, thanks. This is a Politics discussion, not "the EU ate my hamster".

moderately,
Scofflaw

demonspawn

Ok, will this new "governance" give the EU the power to investigate corruption of public officials and bank officials? Will they then have the power to convict and sentence these people?

That's the only power I'd give the EU.

demonspawn

Also requesting the title of this thread be changed to "Polls indicate Irish want blah blah". It's incredibly misleading and raises questions as to the motives of posting such a thread.

We all know polls can be incredibly biased.

Anonymous1987

We want EU economic governance now but will they feel the same when circumstances change? The idea of budget rules sounds good in principle but do we need the EU for this? can we not just enforce it on ourselves or do we need an "outside" enforcer?

Lukker-

Shows how little we trust our government these days when we feel safer with the real power in Brussels.

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

... This is a Politics discussion, not "the EU ate my hamster"....

So where's my hamster gone, then?

SkepticOne

I don't see any great distinction between government and governance. The first is the institution (the government) and the second is the activity carried out by that institution, but in ordinary language the terms can be used interchangeably.

It is fairly understandable that there might be a desire for more government/governance at the EU level given the crisis we're in and the Government's inability to tackle the bloated public sector and the various vested interests that dominate the country. I think people feel that literally anything but the current arrangement is to be welcomed.

However it is important to understand the implications. Decisions made at the EU level are going to be made for the good of the EU and not necessarily for the good of very small regions such as Ireland.

A point was made by someone (BetterLisbon I think) on the EU forum recently regarding our corporation tax. What happens if there's objections from France and Germany that Ireland's corporation tax is unfair. It might be genuinely for the good of Europe that the sort of inward investment enjoyed by Ireland is spread around the rest of Europe but are we in Ireland prepared for decision making on this basis? Whatever agreements we might have obtained with regard to corporation tax will be rendered irrelevant. And, moreover, the above is assuming that decisions will be made for the good of the EU and not for the good of powerful members of the EU.

liammur

I would like to see a good debate re the pro's and con's of this so called silver bullet, corporation tax.

I too wouldn't pay much heed to these opinion polls, but one can't just dismiss them and claim their content is made up.

SkepticOne

liammur wrote: »

I would like to see a good debate re the pro's and con's of this so called silver bullet, corporation tax.

You think it is a bit overrated the whole corporation tax thing?

liammur

SkepticOne wrote: »

You think it is a bit overrated the whole corporation tax thing?

Not so much overrated. But I do ask, how are all the other economies (like denmark) surviving with a higher C Tax ?
Have we become a 1-trick pony, have a very low corporation tax and we need do nothing else but become almost entirely dependent on MNC's. And then let's just hope that no one else can think of this fantastic idea.

SkepticOne

liammur wrote: »

Not so much overrated. But I do ask, how are all the other economies (like denmark) surviving with a higher C Tax ?
Have we become a 1-trick pony, have a very low corporation tax and we need do nothing else but become almost entirely dependent on MNC's. And then let's just hope that no one else can think of this fantastic idea.

Other EU countries have implemented low corporation tax regimes (Estonia comes to mind) but Ireland still has a sort of first mover advantage in the area. I agree that it is a 1-trick pony and in many ways a more balanced strategy should have been adopted but now that we've gone down that road any sudden change, imo, would be disastrous.

demonspawn

What was the point of this thread? The original post is simply a regurgitation of statistics with no point being made whatsoever. The original poster has not responded to any replies.

Edit: Removed the last statement. I'm not a mod and shouldn't make suggestions as to what should happen to threads.

hinault

I, for one, would welcome more direct intervention from Europe in to our affairs.

It seems to me that we're incapable of managing our own affairs since Independence.

In the last 60 years, we have managed to create three dreadful recessions and the latest of which we're still in since 2008.

We deserve better.

RealityCheck

hinault wrote: »

I, for one, would welcome more direct intervention from Europe in to our affairs.

It seems to me that we're incapable of managing our own affairs since Independence.

In the last 60 years, we have managed to create three dreadful and the latest of which we're still in since 2008.

We deserve better.

We do, but me like many others will be going elsewhere to find better. Its really pathetic when we've been reduced to the level of wanting others to run the show for us. It almost as if its part of the Irish phsyche. This country has nothing to offer if its reduced to that.

liammur

hinault wrote: »

I, for one, would welcome more direct intervention from Europe in to our affairs.

It seems to me that we're incapable of managing our own affairs since Independence.

In the last 60 years, we have managed to create three dreadful and the latest of which we're still in since 2008.

We deserve better.

I fully agree.
Also agree that changing our low corp tax rate now would be suicidal, but the strategy of having a very low C Tax in a way is a race to the bottom, and these companies are already getting enough in IDA grants and incentives etc.

sirromo

Irish want stronger European economic governance

I don't think so. Read the first paragraph of that article

Irish public opinion has shifted sharply in favour of stronger EU economic governance, according to Eurobarometer poll results published today. Along with the Finns, Ireland showed a 13% rise in those who want stronger European measures and coordination to combat the economic crisis, with a total of 77% in favour.

Can that really be presented as evidence of support for European economic governance? It seems obvious to me that the question relates specifically to how we combat the current economic crisis and does not relate to the bigger question of whether the Europeans will have a role in formulating or vetoing future Irish fiscal or economic policy.

Of course people are going to say that they want stronger measures to combat the economic crisis. Who doesn't want to see stronger measures and coordination between countries to combat the economic crisis? I'm sure if you were to ask the same people whether they would support stronger American measures and coordination to combat the economic crisis, people would give the same kind of response.

liammur

Unfortunately, I think you are correct.

There was, and probably still is, a feeling that we are too good for Europe.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Scofflaw

sirromo wrote: »

I don't think so. Read the first paragraph of that article



Can that really be presented as evidence of support for European economic governance? It seems obvious to me that the question relates specifically to how we combat the current economic crisis and does not relate to the bigger question of whether the Europeans will have a role in formulating or vetoing future Irish fiscal or economic policy.

Of course people are going to say that they want stronger measures to combat the economic crisis. Who doesn't want to see stronger measures and coordination between countries to combat the economic crisis? I'm sure if you were to ask the same people whether they would support stronger American measures and coordination to combat the economic crisis, people would give the same kind of response.

I tend to agree with this - at the moment, you're hardly going to get another response, really. I also wonder whether people are particularly aware of what sort of measures have been proposed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The_Thing

...the parish-pump political system

If it were not for the likes of a few loose cannons like Jackie Healy Rae threatening to withdraw his support, then Bertie's mob - or the Blueshirts had they been in power - would have run roughshod over the people who democratically elected people like JHR, etc.

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

I tend to agree with this - at the moment, you're hardly going to get another response, really. I also wonder whether people are particularly aware of what sort of measures have been proposed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Is the next round of agreeing EU budgets(contributions) coming up shortly,within the next few months?

Seems to me given the vagueness of the question it is just another stunt to have the amunition ready for a slice of the budget cake.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

Is the next round of agreeing EU budgets(contributions) coming up shortly,within the next few months?

Seems to me given the vagueness of the question it is just another stunt to have the amunition ready for a slice of the budget cake.

It is coming up, but I can't see the advantage there in this particular question - I'd assume more that this relates directly to the idea of the "European Semester" budget co-ordination that was recently proposed. Whether one can really take this poll as meaning that the majority of Europeans would support such co-ordination on an ongoing basis rather than just at times like these is a somewhat different question, of course - on the other hand, the whole idea of such co-ordination is to try to avoid times like these.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rumour

Thanks, setting aside 'the want more control agenda', if you were trying to secure funding anywhere these days it would be prudent to be prepared, you would need established authority to do so, polls are a useful method. I do not want to delve further in that particular subject...bygones!!

liammur

I'm encouraged by these boards. There is an onus on all of us to discuss and find out as much information about our economic situation and likely consequences as possible.

Seems to me a bigger % of our population are more concerned with man utd than our own futures, which enables limited politicians do whatever they like.

sirromo

It might be worth adding a poll to this thread asking people if they would support stronger European economic governance. There does seem to be a lot of support for the idea.

The options would need to be worded in such a way as to make it clear that there is far more to economic governance than just "measures and coordination to combat the economic crisis" though. It would need to be made clear that this would be something that would extend beyond the recession and that it will impact on our ability to set our own economic policies.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

True - but I suppose the question there is if, knowing what we now know, we would have wanted them in retrospect - and that, I think, the question can be taken as applying to to a reasonable degree.

rumour wrote:

Thanks, setting aside 'the want more control agenda', if you were trying to secure funding anywhere these days it would be prudent to be prepared, you would need established authority to do so, polls are a useful method. I do not want to delve further in that particular subject...bygones!!

Assuming we're talking about the EU budget here, though, the idea of increased co-ordination between Member States when setting their budgets doesn't seem to me to offer any particular authority to the EU to try to increase its budget - co-ordination between Member States is one of the cheapest things "the EU" can add to its repertoire, because the EU doesn't really do it at all.

sirromo wrote:

It would need to be made clear that this would be something that would extend beyond the recession and that it will impact on our ability to set our own economic policies.

I suspect that most people would understand that it has that effect. Also, people will probably presume that once the recession ends, the impetus for co-ordination will die away a good bit, and the Member States won't be so pushed to do it properly, although they'll still go through the motions - and I would say that they're probably right.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

Assuming we're talking about the EU budget here, though, the idea of increased co-ordination between Member States when setting their budgets doesn't seem to me to offer any particular authority to the EU to try to increase its budget - co-ordination between Member States is one of the cheapest things "the EU" can add to its repertoire, because the EU doesn't really do it at all.

I suspect that most people would understand that it has that effect. Also, people will probably presume that once the recession ends, the impetus for co-ordination will die away a good bit, and the Member States won't be so pushed to do it properly, although they'll still go through the motions - and I would say that they're probably right.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'd agree if I ignored this is a political institution that first looks for power/authority then being no different to any other politican entity rewards itself. In behaving in this manner excuse me if I am as suspect of this entity as I am of our own political class.

Take this little story for example:
Lets have a pay rise:
http://www.europeanbusiness.gr/page.asp?pid=662
memeber states say no, parliament says strike:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1239634/Highly-paid-EU-civil-servants-threaten-strikes-pay-rise-halved-1-85.html
(don't like this source but oddly it's the only one remaining on a simple google search) Very little news in the mainstream media...none in ireland until this....
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/194318/Top-Eurocrats-get-huge-pay-rise

All that glitters is not gold;
Often have you heard that told:
Many a man his life hath sold
But my outside to behold:
Gilded tombs do worms enfold.
Had you been as wise as bold,
Young in limbs, in judgment old,
Your answer had not been inscroll'd:
Fare you well; your suit is cold.
Cold, indeed; and labour lost:
Then, farewell, heat, and welcome, frost!
Portia, adieu. I have too grieved a heart
To take a tedious leave: thus losers part.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

I'd agree if I ignored this is a political institution that first looks for power/authority then being no different to any other politican entity rewards itself. In behaving in this manner excuse me if I am as suspect of this entity as I am of our own political class.

Take this little story for example:
Lets have a pay rise:
http://www.europeanbusiness.gr/page.asp?pid=662
memeber states say no, parliament says strike:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1239634/Highly-paid-EU-civil-servants-threaten-strikes-pay-rise-halved-1-85.html
(don't like this source but oddly it's the only one remaining on a simple google search) Very little news in the mainstream media...none in ireland until this....
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/194318/Top-Eurocrats-get-huge-pay-rise

I'm not really arguing that the EU civil service doesn't seek to protect its budget or authority - it does so just like any organisation, although I'd balk at ascribing it any particular "will to power" beyond those ordinary limits. What I'm saying is that I don't see how this particular piece of research assists them in doing so.

As to the pay rise issue...the EU civil servants are paid based on a formula that uses the civil service pay from 8 member states. If they receive a raise, it's because the civil service in those countries have effectively received a raise. The same Member States are then - knowing that the pay rate for the EU civil service is based on that - voting not to give the EU civil servants the raise theirs have had. More importantly, having agreed a formula for setting pay, they're reneging on it, which is essentially a unilateral abandonment of an agreed deal. There is no worker in the world who can safely allow that to happen, whatever the prevailing economic conditions - it makes any future deals worthless if they can be set aside so casually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nijmegen

As well as some safety netting for financial affairs, I'd love to see an EU-level federal anti-corruption investigation unit, and possibly court.

They'd have a field day here, but also in other European countries receiving EU money since acession that still have corruption problems.

Scofflaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

As well as some safety netting for financial affairs, I'd love to see an EU-level federal anti-corruption investigation unit, and possibly court.

They'd have a field day here, but also in other European countries receiving EU money since acession that still have corruption problems.

There's OLAF, but their remit is only to investigate the misuse of EU funds (both inside the EU and in the Member States). Surprisingly enough, we are not particularly naughty with respect to the use of EU funds - this is OLAF's 2009 report.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sleepy

Lukker- wrote: »

Shows how little we trust our government these days when we feel safer with the real power in Brussels.

That's the kernel of it imho.

Our government and opposition parties are, for the most part, comprised of economically illiterate idiots. Even the people who understand this (a) aren't presented with much in the way of better alternatives, (b) wouldn't trust the rest of the electorate enough to give their 1st preference to a new credible alternative and (c) recognise that the dominance of current parties by the gombeen men ensures that even if they happen to have a capable individual running in your constituency, he/she'll be made impotent by the party whip.

A clearing of the decks is required. Draw a line in the sand forbidding any previous holder of public office from running in the next election. It's time for a new generation of politicians who aren't tainted by the corruption and incompetence so arrogantly displayed since the foundation of the state.

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not really arguing that the EU civil service doesn't seek to protect its budget or authority - it does so just like any organisation, although I'd balk at ascribing it any particular "will to power" beyond those ordinary limits. What I'm saying is that I don't see how this particular piece of research assists them in doing so.

Oh your not that naive please!! We've a budget coming up, watch all the guango's release poll after poll, report after report to justify their budgets. These people are no different.

Scofflaw wrote: »

As to the pay rise issue...the EU civil servants are paid based on a formula that uses the civil service pay from 8 member states. If they receive a raise, it's because the civil service in those countries have effectively received a raise. The same Member States are then - knowing that the pay rate for the EU civil service is based on that - voting not to give the EU civil servants the raise theirs have had...

On second thoughts maybe they are, while the whole of Europe is instilling austerity packages and unemployment is rising all over the fringes of Europe these people turn their noses up at an 1.85% pay rise. There is a distinct arrogance and flexing of muscles in this move, nevermind the fact that the pay rise is based upon an increase in rental allowance despite zero rental increases in Brussels.
Do you think the Irish government should borrow more money to meet these demands and tell their own public service to take a pay cut?

Scofflaw wrote: »

More importantly, having agreed a formula for setting pay, they're reneging on it, which is essentially a unilateral abandonment of an agreed deal. There is no worker in the world who can safely allow that to happen, whatever the prevailing economic conditions - it makes any future deals worthless if they can be set aside so casually..

The formula was flawed..simple. Is there no room for correcting mistakes? Is this the kind of instituition you are advocating?
I am at odds with your militant understanding of rights to pay (excuse me if I am wrong but you are defending their actions and methods including striking),it is counterproductive, appealing as it is to basic instincts.

If you do not understand why this is so especially with the numerous obvious current examples in Ireland, I doubt anything I will say will convince you otherwise.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

Oh your not that naive please!! We've a budget coming up, watch all the guango's release poll after poll, report after report to justify their budgets. These people are no different.

You're not reading what I'm writing, I think. I've agreed that the EU institutions will seek to defend their pay - what I can't see is how this particular research - the stuff that the thread is about, you know? - is supposed to help them do so. You haven't actually explained that bit.

rumour wrote: »

On second thoughts maybe they are, while the whole of Europe is instilling austerity packages and unemployment is rising all over the fringes of Europe these people turn their noses up at an 1.85% pay rise. There is a distinct arrogance and flexing of muscles in this move, nevermind the fact that the pay rise is based upon an increase in rental allowance despite zero rental increases in Brussels.
Do you think the Irish government should borrow more money to meet these demands and tell their own public service to take a pay cut?

Since the total cost of the additional 1.85% is €73m across the whole EU, and the Irish state is a net beneficiary, that's unlikely to be an even slightly meaningful question. Stick Ireland's portion of that next to the rises for the HSE civil servants, and see whether we can even see it - it's what? €2.7m if we do it on a per-country basis, or €625,000 on a per-capita basis.

rumour wrote: »

The formula was flawed..simple. Is there no room for correcting mistakes? Is this the kind of instituition you are advocating?
I am at odds with your militant understanding of rights to pay (excuse me if I am wrong but you are defending their actions and methods including striking),it is counterproductive, appealing as it is to basic instincts.

If you do not understand why this is so especially with the numerous obvious current examples in Ireland, I doubt anything I will say will convince you otherwise.

There's two separate questions there, or maybe more. One is whether the pay deal is the right pay deal. The second is the question of whether one party to a pay deal has the right to unilaterally renege on it. The third is what techniques are allowable in objecting to such unilateral action.

The first question can be answered by pointing out that when civil service wages go down in the relevant member states, so too do the wages of EU civil servants. As it is, the pay of member state civil servants in the countries used in the formula rose 2.8% in the period under consideration, whereas next year the EU formula will almost certainly result in a reduction of wages. Will people still claim then that the formula is 'flawed', or will we simply hear nothing about it?

The second question should be obvious. If one party to a pay deal can unilaterally renege on it, then it's not a deal. How would you feel if your employer simply said "I know we agreed to pay you x for the year, but we're changing that to be less"?

The third question is again fairly simple - strike action is allowed.

So, sure, the formula could be renegotiated, or some form of reduction for economic circumstances could be negotiated - but there was no negotiation, just a fiat decision, and a populist one to boot.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nijmegen

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's OLAF, but their remit is only to investigate the misuse of EU funds (both inside the EU and in the Member States). Surprisingly enough, we are not particularly naughty with respect to the use of EU funds - this is OLAF's 2009 report.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The cutest hoor is the one who knows which side his bread is buttered on and how far he can get away with things

I actually believe that in Ireland we lose far more money to poor planning and management controls throughout the state than to actual corruption.

But the corruption needs to be wiped out as a moral imperitive.

Scofflaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

The cutest hoor is the one who knows which side his bread is buttered on and how far he can get away with things

I actually believe that in Ireland we lose far more money to poor planning and management controls throughout the state than to actual corruption.

I suspect that the proportion is along the lines of several billions to a couple of millions.

Nijmegen wrote: »

But the corruption needs to be wiped out as a moral imperitive.

I don't really have much time for "moral imperatives" when it comes to government - I'm only really interested in the practical effects. If they saved me the billions, they'd be welcome to the millions. Unfortunately, the current position is that they cost me both.

cordially,
Scofflaw

McDougal

Just stop electing FF and FG gombeens (and the cowards in Labour)

ei.sdraob

translation: Irish want more European €€€ for nothing

Eliot Rosewater

I first came across this quote in dongalfella's signature, and subsequently sourced it to an article in The Guardian.

"I support the European project as a way of protecting me from Irish politicians. I voted for Lisbon, not because I wanted to follow the Irish political establishment but because I despise it and need protection from it. " - Colm Tóibín

This attitude is one of the primary reasons I support the EU, and was perhaps a key reason for the opinions laid out in the opening post. Much of the time, when it comes to choosing between government from Dublin and government from Brussels, I pick the latter. I don't trust the Irish political establishment to act in the best interests of this country one bit.

SkepticOne

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

This attitude is one of the primary reasons I support the EU, and was perhaps a key reason for the opinions laid out in the opening post. Much of the time, when it comes to choosing between government from Dublin and government from Brussels, I pick the latter. I don't trust the Irish political establishment to act in the best interests of this country one bit.

I agree that distrust of the Irish political establisment is one of the key reasons behind the OP, however the reason the political establisment doesn't act in the best interest of Ireland is because we the people don't hold them to account sufficiently. If we don't hold our own politicians to account, how are we going to hold the various Brussels commissioners, politicians and officials to account?

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

I agree that distrust of the Irish political establisment is one of the key reasons behind the OP, however the reason the political establisment doesn't act in the best interest of Ireland is because we the people don't hold them to account sufficiently. If we don't hold our own politicians to account, how are we going to hold the various Brussels commissioners, politicians and officials to account?

Let the rest of Europe do it?

nearly joking,
Scofflaw