New grading system from cycling Ireland

RobFowl

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/Home/News/Racing-Categories-Update.aspx

The big change is there will not be an A4 category any more. It'll be replaced by a "sport" cat which is limited to 50km max. You'll score no points, will not be eligible for any cash prizes and cannot race against any of the other categories !!

Personally I think this is daft. An entry category which you can only move out of on request ! Some riders will stay there so they'll keep on winning knowing full well they'll never get upgraded. Also will never get the experience of riding with better and more experienced racers.

I honestly can't see the point..

Lumen

That's mad Ted.

No handicaps and no races over 50km? That's going to be a right PITA to organise, and we'll likely end up with loads of really short races due to rounding down the number of laps to get it under 50km.

I'll have to upgrade myself to A3. :rolleyes:

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

That's mad Ted.

No handicaps and no races over 50km? That's going to be a right PITA to organise, and we'll likely end up with loads of really short races due to rounding down the number of laps to get it under 50km.

I'll have to upgrade myself to A3. :rolleyes:

Nah you won't.

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

That's mad Ted.

No handicaps and no races over 50km? That's going to be a right PITA to organise, and we'll likely end up with loads of really short races due to rounding down the number of laps to get it under 50km.

I'll have to upgrade myself to A3. :rolleyes:

Another 3 and a half years and you'll be able to do some proper racing ...

niceonetom

I was never entirely clear on the reasons for bringing in the A4 cat in the first place, but I can't see what problems this new pointless (both literally and figuratively) cat solves.

Do they want to force the stronger A4s (and there are a few) to upgrade themselves so they get out of the way of the people for whom racing is just something they dabble with occasionally? Or what?

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

I was never entirely clear on the reasons for bringing in the A4 cat in the first place

"A new category for S3 riders who had not scored any points in the last 2 years and beginners wishing to try racing for the first time. "

niceonetom wrote: »

Do they want to force the stronger A4s (and there are a few) to upgrade themselves so they get out of the way of the people for whom racing is just something they dabble with occasionally?

Yes, I guess the intent is to encourage as many riders out of A4 into A3 as possible, thus making the new Sport category completely beginner-centric and therefore more accessible. I'm not sure this is really necessary, as from what I understand A4 was already much easier than A3.

RobFowl

By the way

Feedback is requested by Sept 30th to grading@cyclingireland.ie

DirkVoodoo

I suppose there are only so many races and so many points to go around, so the rate at which strong riders are promoted to A3 isn't as high as they would like. I suppose it is better for the "strong" A4s now, if they want to compete and earn points they can't race against absolute beginners who just want to try open racing for fun and the thrill of a sprint.

Chips Lovell

A step backwards in my opinion. I liked way things worked this year and it certainly made open racing more accessible. The problems I see are:

1. I presume they reckon that the absence of cash prizes will encourage stronger riders to upgrade themselves. Given that cash prizes aren't that big and that winning or placing are a bigger deal for most people, I'm not so sure a certain percentage of strong riders will.

2. Completely separating Sport from the other cats discourages race organisers from catering to the newcomers. At least last year you had the flexibility of either running A4 only or A4/A3 or handicap events. If organisers don't have the resources, it'll be the first to go.

3. As Lumen says, the likelihood is that a lot of races will be less than 50km. Given the amount of travel involved in open races, that's not a lot of racing for half a day on the road.

I really wish that Cycling Ireland would say why they're introducing these changes and not just simply announce them.

Think I'll register as A3 next year.

niceonetom wrote: »

I was never entirely clear on the reasons for bringing in the A4 cat in the first place.

Part of the problem was that Vets and Juniors were also separate categories who usually ended up racing with S3s. So you could be a newcomer racing against a 41 year old guy who has been winning all around him for the past twenty years.

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

Another 3 and a half years and you'll be able to do some proper racing ...

Actually, there's probably a way you could get into vet racing now;);)

Chips Lovell

Beasty wrote: »

Actually, there's probably a way you could get into vet racing now;);)

Sex change?

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

Actually, there's probably a way you could get into vet racing now;);)

No there isn't ! they put your DOB on the CI licence

100Suns

niceonetom wrote: »

I was never entirely clear on the reasons for bringing in the A4 cat in the first place, but I can't see what problems this new pointless (both literally and figuratively) cat solves.

Do they want to force the stronger A4s (and there are a few) to upgrade themselves so they get out of the way of the people for whom racing is just something they dabble with occasionally? Or what?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Roundwood GP last week for instance. The A4s had a 1 minute handicap. Strong riders in the A4 stayed off the front in and came in 50 seconds up on the A3 bunch which was moving well with plenty of attacking. It beg's the question is this fair on the majority of A4s, as I understand that this cat was set up for people new to the sport or those coming back after a long break? The presence of a small minority of riders of this calibre reduces the handicap the rest of the A4s will get and gives them little chance in A4 races.

And is it fair on the A3s that there may be strong experienced riders riding A4 and getting the handicap (and points/prizes) who are competitive A3s or maybe A2 standard?

The concept of A4 for those new to racing and those coming back after a long lay off is a good idea and should be retained. Maybe they should consider a process whereby when a rider places top 8 in the A4 category twice they move up to A3? The idea may be to force those who know they are competitive at A3 level to move up but legislating on the basis of the minority isn't the way to tackle this as it's not fair on the majority of A4s.

That's my tuppence worth and I reserve the right to take a contradictory and opposing view when I read what someone with a better and more informed understanding of these things (like Lumen) has to say.

DirkVoodoo

el tonto wrote: »

Think I'll register as A3 next year.

Is that all it takes? I was thinking of something similar (heck, getting dropped in A4 may as well get dropped in A3) and the prospect of the Gorey would give me something to train consistently for. Plus I would get to race with the Schleck brothers.

Chips Lovell

100Suns wrote: »

The concept of A4 for those new to racing and those coming back after a long lay off is a good idea and should be retained. Maybe they should consider a process whereby when a rider places top 8 in the A4 category twice they move up to A3? The idea may be to force those who know they are competitive at A3 level to move up but legislating on the basis of the minority isn't the way to tackle this as it's not fair on the majority of A4s.

I think you're on the right track here. My suggestion would be instead they make automatic upgrades easier to achieve. For example, podium in an A4 race and you're automatically bumped up. Or two top sixes. Something like that. Instead they've introduced a system whereby the sandbaggers (the guys who really should register for A3 but won't) can keep winning as long as they want.

Chips Lovell

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Is that all it takes? I was thinking of something similar (heck, getting dropped in A4 may as well get dropped in A3) and the prospect of the Gorey would give me something to train consistently for. Plus I would get to race with the Schleck brothers.

Yup. You can even register as an A1 if you're crazy enough. Aidan.offbeat registered as an A3 this year purely to ride the Gorey and it worked out very well for him.

DirkVoodoo

el tonto wrote: »

Yup. You can even register as an A1 if you're crazy enough. Aidan.offbeat registered as an A3 this year purely to ride the Gorey and it worked out very well for him.

Yeah I think I will do that so, feck it!

RobFowl

100Suns wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Roundwood GP last week for instance. The A4s had a 1 minute handicap. Strong riders in the A4 stayed off the front in and came in 50 seconds up on the A3 bunch which was moving well with plenty of attacking. It beg's the question is this fair on the majority of A4s, as I understand that this cat was set up for people new to the sport or those coming back after a long break? The presence of a small minority of riders of this calibre reduces the handicap the rest of the A4s will get and gives them little chance in A4 races.

This "new" category will just mean those strong riders can stay in this "sport" category as long as they wish to. Presumably they'll be able to take out 1 day licences and race with the A3's if they want to as well.

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

No there isn't ! they put your DOB on the CI licence

They left it blank on my IVCA licence - anyway, el tonto has spotted the loophole, and I am sure you could assist Lumen should he/she decide to go down this route;)

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

They left it blank on my IVCA licence - anyway, el tonto has spotted the loophole, and I am sure you could assist Lumen should he/she decide to go down this route;)

I'll sharpen the scalpels and scrape the rust off the vice grips

mumfordandsons

HI,

Had to post in reply to this one. i have just sent below to grading@cyclingireland.ie with my opinions.
i know there are work around ect, but i think best way was to keep it as it was.



I have just seen the changes that may be going ahead for next year . I was so happy that this a4 had come into play this year , best think in my option to happen for years .
I think a lot of people have come back racing because of this. I have have full licence for around 5 years through yourselves. I have little time to train so this suits me best , ect.
To have a cap of 50 km , also no cash prizes (why) and to have to email if think then may be able to race with a3 is crazy. From what i see from this year A4 it was good for riders ect, numbers were up (?). This seems to me a backward step to say the very least.
From my point of view and someone who loves cycling, will i drive 2 hours ect down and back for these races ? i would have to say it would almost put you off!!!

I would say a lot riders i think will not like this also, and request upgrade to a3 , how will this be then awarded?, and then have issue with one very large group of a3 next year also

Billycake

100Suns wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Roundwood GP last week for instance. The A4s had a 1 minute handicap. Strong riders in the A4 stayed off the front in and came in 50 seconds up on the A3 bunch which was moving well with plenty of attacking. It beg's the question is this fair on the majority of A4s, as I understand that this cat was set up for people new to the sport or those coming back after a long break? The presence of a small minority of riders of this calibre reduces the handicap the rest of the A4s will get and gives them little chance in A4 races.

And is it fair on the A3s that there may be strong experienced riders riding A4 and getting the handicap (and points/prizes) who are competitive A3s or maybe A2 standard?

The concept of A4 for those new to racing and those coming back after a long lay off is a good idea and should be retained. Maybe they should consider a process whereby when a rider places top 8 in the A4 category twice they move up to A3? The idea may be to force those who know they are competitive at A3 level to move up but legislating on the basis of the minority isn't the way to tackle this as it's not fair on the majority of A4s.

That's my tuppence worth and I reserve the right to take a contradictory and opposing view when I read what someone with a better and more informed understanding of these things (like Lumen) has to say.

I'd have to agree with 100Suns on this one. I've been riding for 10 years pretty seriously (in my humble opinion). I follow a serious training schedule while juggling work, family etc (I know I'm not alone in this by the way). I only started racing this year when a mate who races mentioned the A4 category. I've raced three times now and each time I've been blown away by some of the A4 riders and the power they can produce. Anyway, after my last race I got talking to the winner of the A4's and it seems he has been racing for a number of years, knows the ropes extremely well and doesn't class himself as new to racing. My understanding of the A4 cat' was that it was for new comers to racing or those getting back into it after a layoff. I went home after my last race felling a bit demoralised by the experience as I know I'm relatively strong on the bike, produce good numbers and put the miles in where and when it matters but next to the leading A4s I felt like I was standing still. It has made me rethink whether I actually want to race or not.
There, I got that off my chest................now back to work.

Lumen

Billycake wrote: »

I'd have to agree with 100Suns on this one. I've been riding for 10 years pretty seriously (in my humble opinion). I follow a serious training schedule while juggling work, family etc (I know I'm not alone in this by the way). I only started racing this year when a mate who races mentioned the A4 category. I've raced three times now and each time I've been blown away by some of the A4 riders and the power they can produce. Anyway, after my last race I got talking to the winner of the A4's and it seems he has been racing for a number of years, knows the ropes extremely well and doesn't class himself as new to racing. My understanding of the A4 cat' was that it was for new comers to racing or those getting back into it after a layoff. I went home after my last race felling a bit demoralised by the experience as I know I'm relatively strong on the bike, produce good numbers and put the miles in where and when it matters but next to the leading A4s I felt like I was standing still. It has made me rethink whether I actually want to race or not.
There, I got that off my chest................now back to work.

I hear what you're saying, but the issue here is (very) strong riders taking easy victories in A4 when they should be in A3.

I don't see how the Sport category will help - they'll just sandbag in that one instead, with no risk of promotion.

I recall the case of an ex-international starting this year in A4, winning pretty much every race he contended in A4 and A3, and reaching A2 by mid-season. Ex-internationals are (if I remember the rules correctly) supposed to start in A2, and only get a lower licence by special dispensation, presumably in the case of them being doddery old gits with half a lung missing. That's just taking the piss, IMO.

nomadic

By calling it sports it should make the bangers want to upgrade. There's no glory in winning a sports race. More abuse should be thrown at these bangers. Works in mtb.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

I hear what you're saying, but the issue here is (very) strong riders taking easy victories in A4 when they should be in A3.

I don't see how the Sport category will help - they'll just sandbag in that one instead, with no risk of promotion.

I recall the case of an ex-international starting this year in A4, winning pretty much every race he contended in A4 and A3, and reaching A2 by mid-season. Ex-internationals are (if I remember the rules correctly) supposed to start in A2, and only get a lower licence by special dispensation, presumably in the case of them being doddery old gits with half a lung missing. That's just taking the piss, IMO.

If you are talking of the same chap about which I am thinking, he upgraded himself to A3.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

If you are talking of the same chap about which I am thinking, he upgraded himself to A3.

Ah, OK. Fair enough.

Hungrycol

el tonto wrote: »

I think you're on the right track here. My suggestion would be instead they make automatic upgrades easier to achieve. For example, podium in an A4 race and you're automatically bumped up. Or two top sixes. Something like that. Instead they've introduced a system whereby the sandbaggers (the guys who really should register for A3 but won't) can keep winning as long as they want.

Automatically in A3 after a lucky podium place in A4 might be a bit harsh but I get the idea. Perhaps automatic promotion for those continually in the top 5 for, say, 3 races. Does this also mean A3 groups are going to be massive?

Lumen

Hungrycol wrote: »

Automatically in A3 after a lucky podium place in A4 might be a bit harsh but I get the idea.

What are these "lucky podium places" you speak of?

Quigs Snr

Full points for A4 races, not half points that keep strong riders around all year. Problem solved.

If you need easier racing than A4 racing, cycling is not your thing, do some damn training with a local club, build yourself up and then start racing rather than turning up and expecting a race to be laid on for your flabby unfit ar*e. The standard I saw was low compared to the combined races of recent years. I have seen some good riders do well who can compete much higher, but I have also seen riders who would need a ladder to get over a speed ramp get well up in the placings.

mumfordandsons

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Full points for A4 races, not half points that keep strong riders around all year. Problem solved.

Seriously A4 racing ? I didn't do a single Sunday race this year but from what I saw in the leagues, if you need easier racing than A4 racing, cycling is not your thing, do some damn training with a local club, build yourself up and then start racing rather than turning up and expecting a race to be laid on for your flabby unfit ar*e. The standard I saw was pitiful next the even the combined races of recent years. I have seen some good riders do well who can compete much higher, but I have also seen riders who would need a ladder to get over a speed ramp get well up in the placings.

I dont think there is any point in putting down riders in this cat. It solves nothing. different levels , different times to train , ect, fair play to anyone who try's it i think.

Chips Lovell

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Full points for A4 races, not half points that keep strong riders around all year. Problem solved.

If you need easier racing than A4 racing, cycling is not your thing, do some damn training with a local club, build yourself up and then start racing rather than turning up and expecting a race to be laid on for your flabby unfit ar*e. The standard I saw was low compared to the combined races of recent years. I have seen some good riders do well who can compete much higher, but I have also seen riders who would need a ladder to get over a speed ramp get well up in the placings.

Tend to agree. I thought it was just the right standard for entry level to open racing. I raced a bit of S3 the previous year and it was much tougher. Anyone who found it too hard would be better off trying to build themselves up in the local leagues.

Lumen

Along the lines of a faster upgrade process, wouldn't it make sense to allocate points where there are currently prizes in handicapped races?

I know a couple of A4 riders who have loads of cash prizes from handicapped open races, but haven't yet been upgraded. They don't want to self-upgrade because of the perception (at least in their own minds) that they haven't earned it.

This would also ease the pressure on race organisers to put on separate A4 races.

Chips Lovell

mumfordandsons wrote: »

I dont think there is any point in putting down riders in this cat. It solves nothing. different levels , different times to train , ect, fair play to anyone who try's it i think.

I don't think he's putting anyone down. He's bluntly saying that if people find A4 too hard, they probably need to do more work. We had huge fields this year, with most riders staying up near the business end. It wasn't like everyone was getting killed.

Lumen wrote: »

Along the lines of a faster upgrade process, wouldn't it make sense to allocate points where there are currently prizes in handicapped races?

I like this idea.

mumfordandsons

well ok maybe not but i think "cycling is not your thing, do some damn training with a local club, build yourself up and then start racing rather than turning up and expecting a race to be laid on for your flabby unfit ar*e."

is not nicest thing to say ????

it's bike racing we dont get paid, it's for fun.

........i keep telling myself as they disappear up the road!!!

Chips Lovell

mumfordandsons wrote: »

well ok maybe not but i think "cycling is not your thing, do some damn training with a local club, build yourself up and then start racing rather than turning up and expecting a race to be laid on for your flabby unfit ar*e."

is not nicest thing to say ????

it's bike racing we dont get paid, it's for fun.

........i keep telling myself as they disappear up the road!!!

It's to the point. And I say this as an A4 who's been dropped from more than one lumpy race because my backside is bigger than the back of a bus.

Lumen

The underlying question is: what are open races for?

I thought the idea of A4 was to broaden participation from "seasoned club racer" standard to "beginning racing" standard.

It's a bit crazy to have to train seriously with a club before starting open racing. The great thing about open races are that you get to travel around a bit and get a bit of a change of scenery and different faces from the club racing scene.

Slagging people for being too slow to race leads to the (inaccurate) perception that road cycling is a sport dominated full of elitist ****, and sends people off to the gentle bosom of triathlon and other "participation oriented" sports.

That said, I don't think A4 could be much slower without being seriously embarrasing. You'd get people passing the bunch on hybrids.

Michelin

I think the people behind this decision are missing one major factor, thats if a lot of A4 riders decide on upgrading themselves to A3 next yr will there be enough room on the road for everybody? As I have seen this year with the huge increase in participation at races it has become quite dangerous. Safety does not seem to be a priority for CI!

Ryaner

I started racing this year and found A4 pretty much where I am for racing right now. Being made start in A3 and being blown out the back would have been quite dishearting. It would probably have put me off the idea of open racing.

Overall keeping the A4 cat is the best idea in my eyes. If CI want the strong A4 riders to upgrade quicker, then lower the points required to upgrade and give more out in a race. Having the first 3 get points in a lot of races and then only getting 3 points for the win will keep many of them in the A4 cat.
Spacing the points out for the A4 races so more riders get points in all the races would give the stronger riders more points and get them to the upgrade threshold quicker.

RobFowl

Ryaner wrote: »

Overall keeping the A4 cat is the best idea in my eyes. If CI want the strong A4 riders to upgrade quicker, then lower the points required to upgrade and give more out in a race. Having the first 3 get points in a lot of races and then only getting 3 points for the win will keep many of them in the A4 cat.
Spacing the points out for the A4 races so more riders get points in all the races would give the stronger riders more points and get them to the upgrade threshold quicker.

+1 and remember

RobFowl wrote: »

By the way

Feedback is requested by Sept 30th to grading@cyclingireland.ie

Ryaner

Already mailed them with the above and some additional info. Hopefully they listen

billy.fish

once again no changes to the pointless and random MTB cats..

Just bloody annoying.

Email ahoy.

Oh and A4 going is bad and so on.

Diarmuid

100Suns wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Roundwood GP last week for instance. The A4s had a 1 minute handicap. Strong riders in the A4 stayed off the front in and came in 50 seconds up on the A3 bunch which was moving well with plenty of attacking. It beg's the question is this fair on the majority of A4s, as I understand that this cat was set up for people new to the sport or those coming back after a long break? The presence of a small minority of riders of this calibre reduces the handicap the rest of the A4s will get and gives them little chance in A4 races

I was in the Roundwood GP at the weekend in the A4 cat. The race in Roundwood was exceptional. We rode very hard from the gun as opposed to the usual sit up and wait for the A3s. Then the 6 in the break worked very hard to stay away. However the difference in class with the A3's showed when the gap was closed from 1 minute in the space of one lap. You also have to take into consideration that many who are racing in the A4 cats at this stage have been racing all season and their form has come on.

While I've only scored a handful of minor placings (practically no points) yet I will upgrade myself to A3 's next year. I may as well be earning no points in tougher races as opposed to earning no points while sitting on in the A4s.

I don't see what improvements this new changes brings? If anything it introduces an imaginary barrier between "sport" racings and "real" racing. If they want more movement between cats, this rule of under 60k, only top 3 score points is dumb. Loads of races have been under 60k resulting in fewer points on offer.

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

By the way

Feedback is requested by Sept 30th to grading@cyclingireland.ie

Good point. I think everyone who's disappointed by this should mail them.

LeoD

As someone mentioned earlier, it would be good if they explained the rationale behind this idea. I dunno, maybe race organisers find it too much hassle to put on A1/A2, A3 & A4 races on the same day? After a brief foray into A3 at the start of the year where I got absolutely milled (completely due to lack of training) I downgraded to A4 where I've participated in around 4 open races since. I haven't got near scoring a point yet but at least I'm active in the races. By that I mean I've initiated multiple failed breaks and early bursts for the line - always without success but that doesn't bother me, at least I'm having a go and having a bit of craic. If I was in A3, I'd have no doubt I could stay with the pace but it would be nothing more than a one and half hour wheel sucking exercise.

shaungil

I find it a bit dissapointing to drop it after one season. There have been plenty of issues to iron out but with the standards in the levels it might take a few years for the levels to regulate. I'd be of the opinion points are too hard to come by also. Races under 60km giving only 3,2,1 means it's tough to get the points (I'm still looking for 2 to upgrade). Especially if you don't get to race that much.

Perhaps points for unplaced A4's would make sense as it means that guys can hold in a big bunch are able to hold on.

Personally found the grade brilliant as a way of learning and trying things. I go with a tough group in my club league (by choice) but cannot attempt to attack these guys or beat them in a sprint so the category has given me a chance to try things in a race. I did A3's on and off for the last few years and typically just hung on or got shelled maybe because I wasn't confident enough (or good enough) esp in the huge groups. It's a pity to drop something after only one year and I think some organisers do see it as a pain but some organisers have been brilliant. an A4 only race is a great way to introduce new people to the sport.

I'm going to upgrade next year anyway but found the cat great this year. Will be mailing my thoughts to Cycling Ireland.

ROK ON

I haven't raced, but am making plans to lose weight and put down a winter training prigtamme that would mean that I could start A4 racing/club racing next March.
So in theory the sports category should make no difference to me.
However, it says on Irish Cycling that "Under no circumstances will thus group compete with any of the competitive categories (A1-3), irrespective of whether it is a handicap race or not"

To my mind this means that for me to race I need to find a race that puts on a Sports race only? How likely is this. Could there be fewer sports races that current A4 races. Givrn that a lot of A4 races are run off wuth A3 races this would seem to suggest that there maybe few sports races next year.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

it says on Irish Cycling that "Under no circumstances will thus group compete with any of the competitive categories (A1-3), irrespective of whether it is a handicap race or not"

To my mind this means that for me to race I need to find a race that puts on a Sports race only? How likely is this. Could there be fewer sports races that current A4 races. Givrn that a lot of A4 races are run off wuth A3 races this would seem to suggest that there maybe few sports races next year.

The separate senior races usually start in descending cat order a couple of minutes apart. It may be that dealing with the additional group on the road has proven difficult for organisers, and that they'd rather send out the Sport riders on a shorter race before the other senior cats start, in the same way that they do with the younger riders. I'm only speculating.

The indignity of MAMILs being sent out around the same time as the twelve year olds ought to boost the amount of training going on. :pac:

kennyb3

Would people be of the opinion that this is likely to widen teh gap further between A4/sports and A3?

ROK ON

Thanks for tha Lumen. My only concern is that there are a few races that I can do.
It is not always possible to partake in club races particulalry for folks living in the sticks.
So for someone like me, open racing becomes the more viable (if scary option).
In theory with no cash prizes there maybe more of these races as the cash cost of holding them is now reduced?

Chips Lovell

ROK ON wrote: »

To my mind this means that for me to race I need to find a race that puts on a Sports race only? How likely is this. Could there be fewer sports races that current A4 races. Givrn that a lot of A4 races are run off wuth A3 races this would seem to suggest that there maybe few sports races next year.

It's hard to say exactly what will happen, but I suspect that there will be less Sport races than there were A4 this year. If race organisers this year couldn't run a separate A4 race, they could also put them in a handicap with one or more other group. They can't do that now.

kennyb3 wrote: »

Would people be of the opinion that this is likely to widen teh gap further between A4/sports and A3?

Some people will upgrade, some won't. The issue is that you no longer have an automatic upgrade after getting a certain amount of results. So you could end up with the same handful of strong riders winning all around them next year.

Esroh

So what they want is for Race Organisers to decide will there be enough interest in a 'Sportive' of 50km or less with leadcars, commisar and marshalls where the first 3 across the line get to stand on a podium:D