Conduct UnBecoming of Fine Gael Party

Wide Road

I know we have the usual blah blah from me and others regarding Minister Lowry, Minister Noonan etc. These people held Ministerial power, I know it's a long time ago, but in the context of recent threads, they are important in the next and future general elections. Firstly, when Ml Lowry was Chairman of the FG party, the FG party debt was paid off in full. How was this done? I don't know, but more importantly who does? Does Ml's best friend (J Bruton Taoiseach) know? If so, surely his brother knows. If not, then J Bruton didn't deserve his term as Taoiseach. Yet, the secrecy is at best, unusual!!!!

gandalf

These guys are amateurs compared to the professional con artists that inhabit the ranks of the so-called "Soldiers of Destiny".

What is important at the next election is people remember and punish a party that had the ability and resources to shape, direct and prepare Ireland for the future but instead choose to squander and waste the opportunity that was handed to them on a silver platter.

Wide Road

gandalf wrote: »

These guys are amateurs compared to the professional con artists that inhabit the ranks of the so-called "Soldiers of Destiny".

What is important at the next election is people remember and punish a party that had the ability and resources to shape, direct and prepare Ireland for the future but instead choose to squander and waste the opportunity that was handed to them on a silver platter.

Any chance of trying to stay on topic. There are threads on FF. Thanks. The legacy of FG's last occasion in govt (all those years ago) is still evident thanks to a certain tribunal and a certain Minister for Health over his handling of the Hep C scandal. These are still in peoples minds and Enda has done nothing except bring back a failed politican to the front bench.

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

I know we have the usual blah blah from me and others regarding Minister Lowry, Minister Noonan etc. These people held Ministerial power, I know it's a long time ago, but in the context of recent threads, they are important in the next and future general elections.

You do know that Michael Lowry is not a member of FG?

If you have reservations about any government relying on his support perhaps you should draft a strongly worded letter to the current incumbents?

tolosenc

Given how vicious FF can be when needed, I'm pretty sure there's nothing untoward about how the debt was paid off. Scandals involving FG, I come up with 2, maybe 3 over the past 15 years. FF have a conveyor belt of scandal.

We all know we don't have a great set of politicians in this country, so we choose the best of a bad lot. There is no comparison between the two main parties in terms of the levels of corruption. Thus, FG scandal is largely irrelevant.

gandalf

Wide Road wrote: »

Any chance of trying to stay on topic. There are threads on FF. Thanks. The legacy of FG's last occasion in govt (all those years ago) is still evident thanks to a certain tribunal and a certain Minister for Health over his handling of the Hep C scandal. These are still in peoples minds and Enda has done nothing except bring back a failed politican to the front bench.

It is on topic, I am stating that no matter what mud you throw at any other party it is a minuscule amount compared to mountain of sleaze that permeates the FF party at all levels.

It's very relevant at dealing with an attempt of deflection from a party that is so flawed it has broken the country financially several times now since the founding of this state.

As for backing a "failed politician" on the front bench I can ream a list off for you but a certain Ray Burke and every tree in North County Dublin springs to mind

Wide Road

lugha wrote: »

You do know that Michael Lowry is not a member of FG?

If you have reservations about any government relying on his support perhaps you should draft a strongly worded letter to the current incumbents?

I've mentioned already, try stay on topic. Ml Lowry was in govt with FG during their last time in govt, many years ago. Also, no mention of Ml Noonan in health? These 2 politicans are FG's legacy in that rainbow govt.

jmayo

Wide Road wrote: »

I know we have the usual blah blah from me and others regarding Minister Lowry, Minister Noonan etc. These people held Ministerial power, I know it's a long time ago, but in the context of recent threads, they are important in the next and future general elections. Firstly, when Ml Lowry was Chairman of the FG party, the FG party debt was paid off in full. How was this done? I don't know, but more importantly who does? Does Ml's best friend (J Bruton Taoiseach) know? If so, surely his brother knows. If not, then J Bruton didn't deserve his term as Taoiseach. Yet, the secrecy is at best, unusual!!!!

Ahh bless did 65-66 Lower Mount st tell you to get out and start a thread to counter all the ones about:
ff theives (stroke fahy, burke, haughey),
fraudsters (callely, lawlor),
liars (o'dea, burke),
tax evaders (flynn, ahern, haughey)
and wasters of public funds (too many to mention, but honours go to cullen, dempsey, o'donoghue).

I also expect some threads questioning the bonafides of Labour members who were once part of Democratic Left. :rolleyes:

Anyway back on topic yes lowry was bent, he definetly was involved in tax evasion and there are huge question marks hanging over his and other senior officials involvement in the awarding of the mobile phone license.
And his clearing of the FG debt does leave large question marks.


At least FG kicked him out, and did not drag their feet about it.
There are rumours he will be invited back in, but I beleive there is no substance to them as FG don't seem to have the stomach for harbouring bad apples.

He should not be allowed stand for election, much less get elected by the elctorate and then to add insult to injury get secret preferential treatment from the government for his support.


On the other hand your party failed to kick out most of it's bad apples, until it became so politically expedient that there was no choice.

Wide Road wrote: »

Any chance of trying to stay on topic. There are threads on FF. Thanks. The legacy of FG's last occasion in govt (all those years ago) is still evident thanks to a certain tribunal and a certain Minister for Health over his handling of the Hep C scandal. These are still in peoples minds and Enda has done nothing except bring back a failed politican to the front bench.

Jeeze isn't it rich ff talking about failed politicans :rolleyes:

Yes I wholeheartedly agree Noonan was very bad in his handling of the Hep C and the vitims should have been treated much better.
It was disgraceful and I think it was a contributing factor why he did poorly in 2002.
He is a failed leader not a failed politican.

But there is a but, how many instances have we had where the dept of healh under a quasi ffer, with full support from ff, has mishandled health matters and victims of health cockups ?

How about the victims of child abuse by the church seeing their government give the religious orders an out in terms of making them pay for their actions ?

Wide Road

tolosenc wrote: »

Given how vicious FF can be when needed, I'm pretty sure there's nothing untoward about how the debt was paid off. Scandals involving FG, I come up with 2, maybe 3 over the past 15 years. FF have a conveyor belt of scandal.

We all know we don't have a great set of politicians in this country, so we choose the best of a bad lot. There is no comparison between the two main parties in terms of the levels of corruption. Thus, FG scandal is largely irrelevant.

The sight of our Minister for Health Ml Noonan defending the treatment of decent honest women during the Hep C scandal on the steps of our courts is indeed relevant in my opinion. You might have different views.

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

I've mentioned already, try stay on topic. Ml Lowry was in govt with FG during their last time in govt, many years ago. Also, no mention of Ml Noonan in health? These 2 politicans are FG's legacy in that rainbow govt.

I think the fact that Lowry helps prop up your party is very much on topic.

Any big (or small) party is always likely to throw up some bad eggs. The measure of their morality is what they do when this happens. FG denied Lowry permission to stand for them, at an electoral cost to themselves. FF have a slightly different approach to their bad eggs.

Laminations

This thread is a laughable apples and oranges comparison, like a murderer standing in court saying 'you can't judge me, that fella over there once kicked some people'.

Defense through (ludicrous) deflection, FF classic

mikemac

Michael Lowry is the most effective TD in Tipp North and will continue to top the polls for years to come.
ooh controversial! :pac:

There is also a FG backbencher and there was a FF junior minister but she lost her portfolio and is a backbencher once again.

Realy, Michael Lowry could have been Taoiseach one day, the first ever from Tipperary.

In an organization with thousands or even tens of thousands of members you will have members who are bad apples. It's inevitable.
So all you do is judge how FG reacted, they booted him out and I don't see what else they could have done.
Realy, if they kept him he would still vote with FG and now he sells his vote to the government and does it better then most independant TDs.

lugha

Laminations wrote: »

This thread is a laughable apples and oranges comparison, like a murderer standing in court saying 'you can't judge me, that fella over there once kicked some people'.

Defense through (ludicrous) deflection, FF classic

It's worse than that. One of the scoundrels being hauled over the coals by the OP has his support happily accepted by FF.

I wonder is their any way to convert hard neck in to sound ethics? Me might save FF yet! :pac:

BlaasForRafa

Wide Road wrote: »

I know we have the usual blah blah from me and others regarding Minister Lowry, Minister Noonan etc. These people held Ministerial power, I know it's a long time ago, but in the context of recent threads, they are important in the next and future general elections. Firstly, when Ml Lowry was Chairman of the FG party, the FG party debt was paid off in full. How was this done? I don't know, but more importantly who does? Does Ml's best friend (J Bruton Taoiseach) know? If so, surely his brother knows. If not, then J Bruton didn't deserve his term as Taoiseach. Yet, the secrecy is at best, unusual!!!!

Hahaha you're just a dyed in the wool FF'er who is desperately flailing around to try and find some mud to sling at FG in the vain hope that they may have done something stupid enough that would stop them (or whoever else in combination with them) from turfing out that dishonest, corrupt, incompetent shower of cronies at the next election.

Wide Road

LOL, Ye remind me of "The Bally Boys". I'm just asking ye to deal with the issues on THIS thread. Someone even mentioned that Ml Noonan was a failed leader and not a failed politician. Yet the same Ml Noonan was Minister for Health during the Hep C scandal. Does that make him a failed Minister? Finally Boys, try not to stray off topic. Thanks in advance.

Wide Road

Laminations wrote: »

This thread is a laughable apples and oranges comparison, like a murderer standing in court saying 'you can't judge me, that fella over there once kicked some people'.

Defense through (ludicrous) deflection, FF classic

The Hep C scandal wasn't "laughable".

Laminations

Wide Road wrote: »

The Hep C scandal wasn't "laughable".

No you are right, Noonan was a failed Health Minister.

You know what else isn't laughable? The HSE and Harney

cutbacks, service cancellations and overall stinginess
cancer misdiagnoses
cancellation of a Flu vaccination scheme for people aged over 50
58,000 X-Ray radiographs not reviewed by a consultant radiologist
Death of 188 children in HSE care

Get some fvcking perspective you absolute tulip

Wide Road

Laminations wrote: »

No you are right, Noonan was a failed Health Minister.
Great, now we are nearly back on topic. We have had in the last few minutes on this thread an admission by posters that Ml Noonan is a failed Health Minister and a failed Leader. Why then is he the Fine Gael spokesperson for Finance? (try not to stray, please).

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

LOL, Ye remind me of "The Bally Boys". I'm just asking ye to deal with the issues on THIS thread. Someone even mentioned that Ml Noonan was a failed leader and not a failed politician. Yet the same Ml Noonan was Minister for Health during the Hep C scandal. Does that make him a failed Minister? Finally Boys, try not to stray off topic. Thanks in advance.

I think you misunderstand the notion of staying on topic. It does not mean agreeing with the OP. I understand that there is a Ranting and Raving forum for that. And the sub-context of this thread is that FG are as bad as FF. Well, many of us don’t agree with this. They are not as bad, by any measure.

The issues of the specific FG boys you mentioned have been addressed. Lowry now props up FF and Noonan’s bad form has been acknowledged, though you are obviously intent in making as much hay as you can with the latter.
I.e.
OP: Wasn’t Noonan shocking altogether?
ALL (in unison) : Yes, absolutely he was.
OP: But wasn’t Noonan shocking? Etc.

Perhaps you should concentrate your efforts on another front, e.g. Enda’s lack of charisma. Complete muck of course, but you might make better inroads than you are here.

Or why not go along with the usual FF strategy post cock-up? I.e. let FG in for one term, blame them for everything and consign them to opposition for another 15 years? :pac:

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

Great, now we are nearly back on topic. We have had in the last few minutes on this thread an admission by posters that Ml Noonan is a failed Health Minister and a failed Leader. Why then is he the Fine Gael spokesperson for Finance? (try not to stray, please).

Well you need to clarify what you mean by "failed". For me it's just a throw away sound bite. Do ministers take an exam after leaving office?:pac:

Certainly, many people are unhappy when well paid ministers under-perform in office, or show very poor judgement as Noonan did.

But that is far removed from ministers who act unethically or even break the law or who are heavily influences by private interests when they take critical decisions for this country.

scr123

Wide Road wrote: »

I know we have the usual blah blah from me and others regarding Minister Lowry, Minister Noonan etc. These people held Ministerial power, I know it's a long time ago, but in the context of recent threads, they are important in the next and future general elections. Firstly, when Ml Lowry was Chairman of the FG party, the FG party debt was paid off in full. How was this done? I don't know, but more importantly who does? Does Ml's best friend (J Bruton Taoiseach) know? If so, surely his brother knows. If not, then J Bruton didn't deserve his term as Taoiseach. Yet, the secrecy is at best, unusual!!!!

In 1976 I joined FF, 34 years ago. Over that 34 years I have knocked on a lot of doors for FF and this is the god's honest truth, only twice did I meet people who admitted they voted Fine Gael. Over the same 34 years in the real world I have spoken to literally thousands of people about political, social and economic issues. Again, this is the god's honest truth, you can always tell the Fine Gaeler because that person will always have a surprised look on the face when you disagree with something they say. They just cannot believe they could be wrong. When you get them going they will always have the self-righteous bigoted attitude of the bully with the answers to everything. On every single thread I have read on message boards the Fine Gael people will twist criticism instantly to an attack on those who dare question their perfect little world. There is a core support for FG that I find disgusting in their cold hatred of people who challenge their perceived superiority. In reality they are natural born losers whose life aim is a safe secure job in the public service, never to take a risk and then preach how they are the backbone of the country.
How FG cleared that debt is a longstanding mystery and this thread will not even hint at how !

Wide Road

lugha wrote: »

Well you need to clarify what you mean by "failed". For me it's just a throw away sound bite. Do ministers take an exam after leaving office?:pac:

Certainly, many people are unhappy when well paid ministers under-perform in office, or show very poor judgement as Noonan did.

But that is far removed from ministers who act unethically or even break the law or who are heavily influences by private interests when they take critical decisions for this country.

You will have to ask the other posters re failed minister.

Laminations

Wide Road wrote: »

Great, now we are nearly back on topic. We have had in the last few minutes on this thread an admission by posters that Ml Noonan is a failed Health Minister and a failed Leader. Why then is he the Fine Gael spokesperson for Finance? (try not to stray, please).

Because he has previous experience as Minister for Industry and Commerce in the 1980s and he is veracious when it comes to financial matters AND political point scoring - I think he was described as a bulldog or some such.

Now if you think after one scandal in Health that the man is not fit for any other portfolio, how can you explain Harneys continuance in office? Or Dempsey, he has courted controversy, or indeed Brian Cowen? The current leader of FF and Taoiseach is a FAILED Finance Minister!!

lugha

scr123 wrote: »

Over that 34 years I have knocked on a lot of doors for FF and this is the god's honest truth, only twice did I meet people who admitted they voted Fine Gael.

scr123 wrote: »

Again, this is the god's honest truth, you can always tell the Fine Gaeler because that person will always have a surprised look on the face when you disagree with something they say ... rant rant rant

So all two times, you could always tell the Fine Gaeler? :D

BlaasForRafa

scr123 wrote: »

In 1976 I joined FF etc

And you wouldn't be biased now would you?

And before you jump in, I have no party allegiance. I just want to see the useless corrupt idiots who in large part helped to ruin this country get run out of office.

The thrust of this thread from the OP seems to be a general "Fine Gael are bad m'kay" and speculation about FG's debt without presenting ANY evidence of FG wrongdoing in respect of this.

BlaasForRafa

lugha wrote: »

So all two times, you could always tell the Fine Gaeler? :D

They were wearing blueshirts obviously

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

In 1976 I joined FF, 34 years ago. Over that 34 years I have knocked on a lot of doors for FF and this is the god's honest truth, only twice did I meet people who admitted they voted Fine Gael. Over the same 34 years in the real world I have spoken to literally thousands of people about political, social and economic issues. Again, this is the god's honest truth, you can always tell the Fine Gaeler because that person will always have a surprised look on the face when you disagree with something they say. They just cannot believe they could be wrong.

Poor scr123, 34 years as a FFer and always feeling like a 'winner'. It must be tough now your world is falling apart, now that you are awaking from your delusion. Take a break.

http://www.samaritans.org/

On every single thread I have read on message boards the Fine Gael people will twist criticism instantly to an attack on those who dare question their perfect little world.

Rich coming from someone who posts about the opposition as 'perpetual losers' rather then debate FF in any kind of coherent manner. You may want to look here and then a little further down the page to when your post was rubbished :rolleyes:

scr123

Laminations wrote: »

Poor scr123, 34 years as a FFer and always feeling like a 'winner'. It must be tough now your world is falling apart, now that you are awaking from your delusion. Take a break.

http://www.samaritans.org/



Rich coming from someone who posts about the opposition as 'perpetual losers' rather then debate FF in any kind of coherent manner. You may want to look here and then a little further down the page to when your post was rubbished :rolleyes:

Losing 6 elections in a row is not perpetual ? Calculator is not available, when it does I will find out how many years it is since 1982 !!
Dont count your chickens before they are hatched you have not won the election yet, then again FG will not win the election, they will have to get into bed with the other miserable failures, Labour Party.
As a matter of interest, hos did FG clear that massive debt ? And did Noonan ever apologise for his cruel handing of the Hep scandal ?

swiss

In a corruption contest between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, the latter has trumped every time, certainly since the Haughey era, possibly before that as well.

I'm going to put my hand up and say that I have voted for Fine Gael in the past. I'm seriously considering my options regarding the next election, but that is beside the point.

Yes, there have been scandals and dodgy individuals within Fine Gael. The adage is true in this respect, that there are bad apples in any organisation. That there have been fewer is in a sense irrelevant, as Fine Gael have not been in the position of power that would permit the sort of graft that has become a hallmark of the incumbants.

The defining difference, for me, is the manner in which these instances of corruption has been dealt with. In the case of Lowry, when the revelations emerged about him, he was booted from Fine Gael. As was pointed out he was considered at one point a future leader. Despite being returned on re-election as a TD, and the people of Tipperary are to either thank or blame for that one, he has paid a heavy price.

Let us compare this to the resignations that have been dragged, at length, from numerous serving Fianna Fáil ministers after their positions have become completely untenable.

No party deserves automatic support, in my view. One consideration I take into account very seriously is the probity of officials within a party. I'm realistic enough to know that no party is perfect in this regard. But while Fine Gael may have some crummy TDs, Fianna Fáil take the biscuit.

lugha

scr123 wrote: »

I will find out how many years it is since 1982 !!

then again FG will not win the election, they will have to get into bed with the other miserable failures

Remind us when FF last won an overall majority? Hint: It was more years than we have had since 1982! :P

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

Losing 6 elections in a row is not perpetual ? Calculator is not available, when it does I will find out how many years it is since 1982 !!
Dont count your chickens before they are hatched you have not won the election yet, then again FG will not win the election, they will have to get into bed with the other miserable failures, Labour Party.
As a matter of interest, hos did FG clear that massive debt ? And did Noonan ever apologise for his cruel handing of the Hep scandal ?

Yawn, I'm not running in the next election so I can't win or lose. I dont have a favourite team that I will back regardless and I cant speak for FG, I'm not a FGer. You see, I simply recognise that in the best interests of the country, we need a new government, its not about being victorious in elections, its about putting the country first. Yes you might indeed win the next election, and you can celebrate by burning some blueshirts or however you get your kicks but it will all be to the detriment of the country. The cancer will just have come out of remission.

Laminations

Wide Road, I'd appreciate a reply. You seem to be suggesting that Ml Noonan is not fit for any opposition portfolio because of a previous scandal in another ministry. I would agree that it was a disgrace if he was given the heath portfolio again. Are you saying that his previous performance should have signalled his total exit from politics? Do you also think FF ministers involved in past and present scandals should exit politics?

tolosenc

scr123 wrote: »

Calculator is not available, when it does I will find out how many years it is since 1982 !!

Do you work in the Department of Finance?

Wolfe Tone

FF and FG are both the same. It is politicians, not parties, that are to blame. I dare say FG would have had a fair bit of scandal if they managed the boom.

deanh

I take it Wideroad that you know that the current Government relies on the vote of Michael Lowery to stay in power? Perhaps you should suggest that your party colleagues do the honourable thing and cut his vote off, call an election and fight on a principle.

scr123

Laminations wrote: »

Yawn, I'm not running in the next election so I can't win or lose. I dont have a favourite team that I will back regardless and I cant speak for FG, I'm not a FGer. You see, I simply recognise that in the best interests of the country, we need a new government, its not about being victorious in elections, its about putting the country first. Yes you might indeed win the next election, and you can celebrate by burning some blueshirts or however you get your kicks but it will all be to the detriment of the country. The cancer will just have come out of remission.

I dare you to admit who you voted for in last three elections and who you will vote for in next election in 2012

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

I dare you to admit who you voted for in last three elections and who you will vote for in next election in 2012

Careful! Unless it's Michael Lowry or Michael Noonan, Wide Road will be complaining that you're going off-topic!

On a point of order, though, someone wouldn't have to be an FG supporter to vote for FG in 2 or 3 elections in a row.......basically, "the best of a bad lot" isn't good enough, but when faced with voting you might just have to run with that, and who knows, those individuals might be FG.

Lowry acted "conduct unbecoming an FG member (or any public representative)" and was kicked out. FG lost loads of votes, but it was what was required of them as a (reasonably) responsible political party.

That is why Lowry is now propping up FF.

Noonan might have been crap at Health, but hey.....that's why he's no longer spokesman on health. It's odd that people who don't judge Cowen as Taoiseach based on his cronic Finance performance choose to compare apples and oranges......I wonder why that is ?

Let's accept that Noonan WAS crap in Health for a second.......Lenihan is crap in Finance, and he's being touted as FF's next leader; does that mean that Noonan is in line as FG leader ?

And let's not even mention "Crap in Everything Coughlan", whose inexplicable survival in the last reshuffle confused even FF supporters.

Bottom line is that every organisation has rotten apples that should be kicked to touch.

The difference is that FG do kick them to touch, while FF keep theirs (and even drag other parties' rejects out of touch).

I mean, Ahern is still an FF TD, right ?

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote:

Careful! Unless it's Michael Lowry or Michael Noonan, Wide Road will be complaining that you're going off-topic!

You complained about being badgered by Wide Road and him mentioning you by name in unrelated posts - the same logic is applicable to you.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Wide Road

Laminations wrote: »

Wide Road, I'd appreciate a reply. You seem to be suggesting that Ml Noonan is not fit for any opposition portfolio because of a previous scandal in another ministry. I would agree that it was a disgrace if he was given the heath portfolio again.

I've been thinking about this. I reckon that bringing back Ml Noonan was a backward step. He was a failed minister and a failed leader, (other posters made these statements). 6 months ago FG had 2 ministers for finance in waiting, we were told. Now they have none. It must be a worry for the party given that Ml Noonan has bad election results during his time as leader. I think he had his time and FG should have gone for youth rather than paybacks.

Wide Road

deanh wrote: »

I take it Wideroad that you know that the current Government relies on the vote of Michael Lowery to stay in power? Perhaps you should suggest that your party colleagues do the honourable thing and cut his vote off, call an election and fight on a principle.

Why? Because you didn't get the govt you voted for. Get a grip. The current govt was formed democratically. Open a thread on this if you feel so strong because you're going off topic again.

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

I've been thinking about this. I reckon that bringing back Ml Noonan was a backward step. He was a failed minister and a failed leader, (other posters made these statements).

And you are happy to repeat this "failed" mantra. Would you care to say what you understand by failed?

Wide Road wrote: »

Why? Because you didn't get the govt you voted for. Get a grip. The current govt was formed democratically.

Interesting. You started this thread highlighting the failings of Michael Lowry as a politician in the make up of a FG government. And now you are justifying FF using his support in propping up the current government. :rolleyes:

jmayo

scr123 wrote: »

In 1976 I joined FF, 34 years ago. Over that 34 years I have knocked on a lot of doors for FF and this is the god's honest truth, only twice did I meet people who admitted they voted Fine Gael.

As a long term ffer would you mind telling us how you have personally benefitted from your party membership ?

And I am not interested in some sh**e about how it makes you feel like a winner.

You must have been pretty selective in what doors you knocked on ?

BTW you will have to be even more selective come the next election or you will be visiting A&E and won't that be interesting when you get to sample what a mess your party has helped make of our health system.

scr123 wrote: »

How FG cleared that debt is a longstanding mystery and this thread will not even hint at how !

Fecking hell if you want to discuss, mysterious finances why not start with the wads of cash that your fomer party leader had ?

Then you can examine ray burkes house purchase schemes, followed by frank fahey's property empire, denis foley's offshore bank aco*****, padraig flynns personal donations, liam lawlors planning adventures, followed by charlie haugheys whole life.

Shure what am I saying we have spent hundreds of millions of taxpayers money trying to answer those mysteries. :rolleyes:

Laminations wrote: »

Poor scr123, 34 years as a FFer and always feeling like a 'winner'. It must be tough now your world is falling apart, now that you are awaking from your delusion. Take a break.

Rich coming from someone who posts about the opposition as 'perpetual losers' rather then debate FF in any kind of coherent manner. You may want to look here and then a little further down the page to when your post was rubbished :rolleyes:

He never did answer the hard questions put to him by both myself and another poster, but trotted out the usual soldier of dysentery party sh**e.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

FF and FG are both the same. It is politicians, not parties, that are to blame. I dare say FG would have had a fair bit of scandal if they managed the boom.

From recollection you are a young poster ?
Maybe when you have lived through a few decades of the sh** that ff have pulled and when you continually see your taxes being pi**ed away by them you might reconsider the above remark. :rolleyes:

Then again you might be inside the tent pi**ing out on the rest of us like some other ffers I know.

Wide Road

This thread is going way off topic again. We are suppose to be discussing FG yet posters are on about FF. Are ye jealous of all their election success? If not, prove it and don't stray. There is tons of posts to be answered. Like the FG debt, Hep C scandal, phone license, etc. Thanks again in advance.

gandalf

What did you expect Wide Road? FF are the Kings of Corruption and Bad Governance. No one is going to dispute that there have been and there maybe are some bad eggs in FG but in comparison to Fianna Fail they are all choir boys.

In my opinion you are a hard core FF supporter but while you are to be "commended" in your blind fate I believe you are deluded if you think you can float a topic like this without comparisons to your beloved party. To be honest your attempt of starting this thread smacks of just how desperate FF supporters are these days.

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

This thread is going way off topic again. We are suppose to be discussing FG yet posters are on about FF. Are ye jealous of all their election success? If not, prove it and don't stray. There is tons of posts to be answered. Like the FG debt, Hep C scandal, phone license, etc. Thanks again in advance.

I think for many, jealously will not be the over-riding emotion felt when pondering over the last 13 years of FF led governments in the next few decades.

The questions about Noonan and Lowry have been addressed. (You failure to comment on Lowry now supporting FF has been noted)

As to your question about how FG handle their internal financial affairs. Being asked by a Fianna Failer? :eek:
Even by FF standards, that takes some neck! Do you not think that given FF internal accountancy practices in the past, you might be best to steer clear of such a question?

Might I ask, do you think it would be a good idea for FF to remain perpetually in power? Do you not think it is healthy to get a change in government occasionally?

Wide Road

gandalf wrote: »

What did you expect Wide Road? FF are the Kings of Corruption and Bad Governance. No one is going to dispute that there have been and there maybe are some bad eggs in FG but in comparison to Fianna Fail they are all choir boys.

In my opinion you are a hard core FF supporter but while you are to be "commended" in your blind fate I believe you are deluded if you think you can float a topic like this without comparisons to your beloved party. To be honest your attempt of starting this thread smacks of just how desperate FF supporters are these days.

Sadly, you cannot answer my points re FG. Why? Instead you talk of FF. Can you and others answer the points made re FG debt, phone license, Hep C scandal without any sidetracks. Go on and try again.

gandalf

Wide Road wrote: »

Sadly, you cannot answer my points re FG. Why? Instead you talk of FF. Can you and others answer the points made re FG debt, phone license, Hep C scandal without any sidetracks. Go on and try again.

You have listed 3 items there where you have problems with FG. Do you honestly want everyone to list out the corruption and failures of the FF party here that they have problems with for all to see? Your list of three will look very small and insignificant then my friend.

Coillte_Bhoy

Sounds like a political party hack trained in these technigues. "Dont answer any questions directly but keep repeating your own accusations/ questions. " Boring

lugha

Wide Road wrote: »

Sadly, you cannot answer my points re FG. Why? Instead you talk of FF. Can you and others answer the points made re FG debt, phone license, Hep C scandal without any sidetracks. Go on and try again.

You are refusing to rebut any points which refute your position, even those that don't bring FF in to it.
TBH, I don't think you are too interested in having an honest exchange. Aren't there FF sites somewhere where you could have the sort of "debate" I think you are interested in?

Wide Road

gandalf wrote: »

You have listed 3 items there where you have problems with FG. Do you honestly want everyone to list out the corruption and failures of the FF party here that they have problems with for all to see? Your list of three will look very small and insignificant then my friend.

I've listed 3 to start with. I just wanted to get answers to those for starters. Sadly all I got was a side-show from anti-FF posters that just couldn't keep away from their one and only method, FF bashing. There are loads of the anti-FF threads around, yet I started one about Fine Gael and made examples of a couple of ex-ministers. I was surprised and disappointed with the reaction. Why? Because I asked several times and reminded posters not to move off- topic. Is it too much to have a FG topic on FG and not on FF.

Wide Road

lugha wrote: »

You are refusing to rebut any points which refute your position, even those that don't bring FF in to it.
TBH, I don't think you are too interested in having an honest exchange. Aren't there FF sites somewhere where you could have the sort of "debate" I think you are interested in?

Have you anything to add to this thread on FG? Can you tell me why Leo said he would be a hypocrite if he was to serve under Enda as spokesperson during Richard Brutons heave for power, yet he is now on the front bench? Doesn't this make Leo a hypocrite? Are you not embarrased by Ml Noonans actions as Minister for Health and as leader of FG. He has been called a failure as a Minister and a failure as Leader of FG. Why can't people around here see why FG are going so bad in the polls?