203 nades in milsim

CaptainCook

m203 nades in milsim What are peoples view on these used in Milsim. I read about some games where they load them with paintball rounds
and use them to kill houses or vehicles (but i don't think any sites in ireland, use vehicles could be wrong on that).
One game i saw if they hit a house or bunker with one of these the house is out of action for 15 minutes and anyone inside is dead.
I think with the availability of relatively cheap powerbull CO2 nades like madbulls xm series or the
thunder b's it would add a new dynamism to games.

Stonewolf

CaptainCook wrote: »

m203 nades in milsim What are peoples view on these used in Milsim. I read about some games where they load them with paintball rounds
and use them to kill houses or vehicles (but i don't think any sites in ireland, use vehicles could be wrong on that).
One game i saw if they hit a house or bunker with one of these the house is out of action for 15 minutes and anyone inside is dead.
I think with the availability of relatively cheap powerbull CO2 nades like madbulls xm series or the
thunder b's it would add a new dynamism to games.

I wrote a set of simple vehicle rules a couple of months ago that allowed 40mm showers to knock out vehicles but they haven't been used in a game yet.

CaptainCook

My only problem with shower grenades is that i think if i was in a house or vehicle i think it would be very hard to differentiate bewtween someone opening up with an AEG on the place or a shower greande, which is a pity cause i own quite a few shower grenades. Thanks for the input.

evilrobotshane

CaptainCook wrote: »

i think it would be very hard to differentiate bewtween someone opening up with an AEG on the place or a shower greande

Time for science!

Destroying a room is a bit extreme though, those things are smaller than hand grenades.

Hivemind187

evilrobotshane wrote: »

Time for science!

Destroying a room is a bit extreme though, those things are smaller than hand grenades.

Yep. M203 rounds are not designed to penetrate armour plating (Dex and a couple of the others will be able to give more details), they are meant for anti-personel and low yield use rather than the shaped charge, HEAT, SABOT or DU rounds usually used to knacker vehicular armour.

The option of using a LAW, AT-4, SMAW or RPG-7 style launcher as a phys-rep makes some sense in this light (and they are available) the problem is - as you say CaptainCook, the issue of being able to differentiate between burst fire (or collective squad fire) and a BB shower.

Plus there is a small issue with the Paintball rounds. Considering that an M203 has a barrel assembly it falls under the same rules as an AEG. we would need to find out whether a paintball round will exceed the 1joule limit before such a thing could be tested. I have my suspicions that it would be.

Alternatively - site permitting - the use of specialist smoke/flash charges could be made use of. HRTA has both a Saracen and the permit to use such equipment so it would be the best place to test such a device.

Growler!!!

I've found the shower grenades to be a bit crap tbh. Any time I used them in anger there's a big cloud of white mist and then calls of " What was that? Was it a hit?":mad: - could have been the way i was using them but i eventually traded them all away along with the launcher...

The Paintball type sounds like a great idea for milsim as it is the closest to representing what a 40mm does in real life ie. send a projectile down range further than a hand thrown gren.

As to bringing physics into it, I will check my notes when i get home but I'm sure the HEDP 40mm round will penetrate light armour.

Quick look on Google gives 2 inchs of penetration at 0 degrees oblique (ooh argh:P)

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/grenade/40mm_ammo.html

Use:


The M433 cartridge is a dual purpose impact type round which is designed to penetrate at least two inches of steel armor at 0° angle of obliquity and inflict personnel casualties in the target area. This item is Code A, approved for service use. This is a training standard item used in both training and combat.

Hivemind187

Growler!!! wrote: »

I've found the shower grenades to be a bit crap tbh. Any time I used them in anger there's a big cloud of white mist and then calls of " What was that? Was it a hit?":mad: - could have been the way i was using them but i eventually traded them all away along with the launcher...

The Paintball type sounds like a great idea for milsim as it is the closest to representing what a 40mm does in real life ie. send a projectile down range further than a hand thrown gren.

As to bringing physics into it, I will check my notes when i get home but I'm sure the HEDP 40mm round will penetrate light armour.

Quick look on Google gives 2 inchs of penetration at 0 degrees oblique (ooh argh:P)

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/grenade/40mm_ammo.html

Use:


The M433 cartridge is a dual purpose impact type round which is designed to penetrate at least two inches of steel armor at 0° angle of obliquity and inflict personnel casualties in the target area. This item is Code A, approved for service use. This is a training standard item used in both training and combat.

Thing is that 2" of armour is considered "light". A MBT can have 6" or more of steel as well as reactive points etc.

Hence the need for the LAW, AT-4, Javelin and various other high-power solutions.

That said, 2" penetration would be grand for light trucks, Humvee's etc.

OzCam

It's kind of academic lads. Throwing a paintball would be legal, launching it from a M203 would be way over a joule.

I agree with a BB shower knocking out a vehicle, or in some circumstances taking out a room or forcing open a door. It has the game-tactics advantage with vehicles that it's not exactly a common tool, and you have to get close to use it. You'd probably want a marshal to call the hit, but otherwise it's very doable.

I did some research on the foam rounds available. Even the lightest of them weighs several grammes so it would have to be travelling at about walking pace to stay under the limit. Something ridiculous like 3m/s IIRC. I was disappointed, I'd love to see them used, but I don't see how we can.

thermo

Surly in a mil-sim game to use a m203 against soft skin vehicles you would have to be using the rubber warheaded rounds to simulate the m203 DP rd. The shower shells would only accuratly simulate the m203 buckshot rds.

Discuss............

NakedDex

Practical use of M203's against vehicles is limited to unarmoured and very lightly armoured targets. Think 4x4's, trucks and vulberable places on APC's (like door mountings). The problem with 40mm HEDP rounds is velocity. The 30mm HEDP rounds an Apache uses in it's M230, for example, do considerably more damage to armoured targets due to shape and velocity, as well as the core design.
The claimed 2in armour penetration should be read very carefully with what proceeds it; 0 degrees of obliquity. That means you need a flat trajectory hit at a perfectly perpendicular angle in order to defeat 2in steel armour (composites and laminates are considerably less). That's only going to happen, in the real world, by accident on occasion, since a 40mm grenade relies on firing in an arc to gain distance.

HE grenades are more common, and just as useful for general combat. Most grenadiers are issued with a wide variety of 40mm grenades, including HEDP for anti-materiél use and various coloured flare and smoke rounds. There's even a terrifying buckshot grenade.


As for 40mm grenades being smaller than hand grenades, therefore not being able to destroy a room that a hand grenade wouldn't; it's not the size, it's how you use it.
The 40mm grenade, though smaller, packs a lot more charge into it's shell. The HE versions sole purpose is to create a highly energetic explosion. Fast explosions tend to break solid structures around them, where slow ones sort of push rather than shock-break the structure. That's why the HE, and indeed the HEDP, rounds are more than capable of destroying the wall of an average sized room. Post one through the window and you can wave goodbye to anyone in there too.
Hand grenades, although bigger, have less charge. Their size is mainly made up of the fragementing body, which is it's main offensive capability. The reason the side wall of a room doesn't suddenly go "poof" when a grenade is dropped next to it, is that blocks tend to hold up well to being hit by small shrapnel.





Anyway, I saw Hive call my name so that's the basics of the real world stuff.

Basically, in airsoft, M203's are pants. Let's face it, milsim or not, they're pretty rubbish. Don't get me wrong, that's coming from someone who absolutely sodding loves 40mm grenades, as my launcher collection will surely tell you, but it honestly hasn't got much of a place in the game.

Your three options with airsoft 40mm grenades are as follows;

Shower shot.
The standard one we're all used to. Usually anticlimactic unless you've done the sensible thing and bought either low round capacity Green gas ones, or medium capacity CO2 ones. Short range, and really only useful for last ditch sort of things or as an emergency back up in case you run dry on ammo in an awkward moment.
Clearing a room with them is more hassle than simply using your AEG or even drawing a pistol and using that. Plus, reloading them is a pain.

Slugshot.
Not really worth talking about, you can't use them. They can be gotten as rubber, foam or plastic heads, but they're all too heavy for use at reasonable velocities under our limits.

Paintball grenades.
Same thing, definition would have them way over the limit if you're using paintballs in them. Can't be used, not worth talking about.


Launchers are intimidating and they look good on some rifles, but beyond aesthetics they hold little use. Developing milsim rules for showershot grenades is vastly difficult and ultimately fruitless (with due respect to those who have already done so, allow me to qualify). The rules themselves can be perfectly fine, but the fickle and unpredictable nature of airsoft grenades does not lend itself to use in a specific ruleset to complete a strict task.
In my opinion, they're better off treated as they are in regular skirmishes; underwhelming, oversized shotguns.