The God Delusion on More 4

storm2811

WesternNight wrote: »

I genuinely can't understand how people like the ones on this show exist with the views they have. I'm not sure I'd be able to stay as restrained as Dawkins is if I came across them.

Yeah,that man doing the plays on abortion and gays was absolute bollix..
I'd have to agree with Dawkins during that point anyway.:pac:

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

He doesn't say teaching religion is child abuse. He says that labeling a child a christian, or a muslim, or a jew is child abuse as they are too young to understand these terms. And I most definitely agree with this. Do you? You wouldn't call a child a marxist just because the parents are would you?

Probably not but when children are young they are usually the same religion as their parents,at least untill they choose what religion they want to be,if any.

MagicMarker

storm2811 wrote: »

Probably not but when children are young they are usually the same religion as their parents,at least untill they choose what religion they want to be,if any.

No, they are not the same religion as their parents. Children are born atheist, they have no concept of God.

They are indoctrinated into their parent's religion, they are told what to believe from an early, impressionable age. They aren't given a proper chance to think for themselves. This is child abuse.

WesternNight

storm2811 wrote: »

Probably not but when children are young they are usually the same religion as their parents,at least untill they choose what religion they want to be,if any.

And the point is they shouldn't be. Being of a certain religion requires consent. Babies and children can't consent to something they have no concept of.

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

No, they are not the same religion as their parents. Children are born atheist, they have no concept of God.

They are indoctrinated into their parent's religion, they are told what to believe from an early, impressionable age. They aren't given a proper chance to think for themselves. This is child abuse.

WesternNight wrote: »

And the point is they shouldn't be. Being of a certain religion requires consent. Babies and children can't consent to something they have no concept of.

I would not call it child abuse,it is simply parents passing on their faith to their children.
The child can make their own choice when their older to leave whatever church they are a part of.
Perhaps not in the stricter religious families though but in most.

maximoose

WesternNight wrote: »

I genuinely can't understand how people like the ones on this show exist with the views they have. I'm not sure I'd be able to stay as restrained as Dawkins is if I came across them.

its unbelievable isn't it? Sitting here listening to them, i cannot understand how some of the people being interviewed possibly say what they are saying without realising how ridiculous it is.

MagicMarker

storm2811 wrote: »

I would not call it child abuse,it is simply parents passing on their faith to their children.
The child can make their own choice when their older to leave whatever church they are a part of.
Perhaps not in the stricter religious families though but in most.

How is that not child abuse? You're not giving the child a fair chance to choose for themselves, you're telling them what to believe, they WILL believe it as all children do.

Is it child abuse to teach children about creationism?

In some parts of the world, you can be killed for turning your back on your faith, is this child abuse?

What about genital mutilation, is this child abuse?

WesternNight

storm2811 wrote: »

I would not call it child abuse,it is simply parents passing on their faith to their children.
The child can make their own choice when their older to leave whatever church they are a part of.
Perhaps not in the stricter religious families though but in most.

Children take everything literally. Completely literally. If you tell a child that they'll go to hell for stealing a sweet for example, they will believe you and will be afraid and under stress. If you tell a child that person X is a bad person because they don't go to church every Sunday, they will grow up to distrust and think negatively about people who don't go to church. And they will think they are bad if for some reason they don't go to church one Sunday.

Just examples, but religious faith is used by a lot of parents as a means of discipline.

How is that good for a child?

Minstrel27

SleepDoc wrote: »

In what way is a well researched, thought provoking documentary presented by one of Britain's foremost intellectuals pathetic or ignorant?

It is usually the thinking and response of the ignorant who disagree with what someone says.

MagicMarker

alex73 wrote: »

Pathetic and ignorant.. But that's the trash that makes it to TV.

Woah! Can't believe I missed this!

Please, enlighten us oh wise one.

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

How is that not child abuse? You're not giving the child a fair chance to choose for themselves, you're telling them what to believe, they WILL believe it as all children do.

Is it child abuse to teach children about creationism?

In some parts of the world, you can be killed for turning your back on your faith, is this child abuse?

What about genital mutilation, is this child abuse?

But they do have a choice further on in life.
I do not think it is child abuse teaching a child about creationism,just wrong.

How can you compare murder and genital mutilation to teaching creationism?

WesternNight wrote: »

Children take everything literally. Completely literally. If you tell a child that they'll go to hell for stealing a sweet for example, they will believe you and will be afraid and under stress. If you tell a child that person X is a bad person because they don't go to church every Sunday, they will grow up to distrust and think negatively about people who don't go to church. And they will think they are bad if for some reason they don't go to church one Sunday.

Just examples, but religious faith is used by a lot of parents as a means of discipline.

How is that good for a child?

Yes it is used as a means of discipline and I am against that but as I said above,children later have a chance to change their beliefs if they wish.
I do not see it as child abuse to teach a child these things,I view it as wrong and ignorant.

MagicMarker

storm2811 wrote: »

But they do have a choice further on in life.
I do not think it is child abuse teaching a child about creationism,just wrong.

How can you compare murder and genital mutilation to child abuse?!

But they're not given a fair chance, what is it you can't understand about this very simple fact?

You don't think its child abuse to teach children as a matter of fact, that the earth was created in 6 days and is only 6000 years old? You think it's wrong, but not child abuse?

I'm not sure what you mean by your second comment? Are you saying genital mutilation as a religious practice is NOT child abuse? Or raising a child in a religion that can result in death if they were to renounce their faith is not child abuse?

mohawk

storm2811 wrote: »

But they do have a choice further on in life.
I do not think it is child abuse teaching a child about creationism,just wrong.

How can you compare murder and genital mutilation to child abuse?!



Yes it is used as a means of discipline and I am against that but as I said above,children later have a chance to change their beliefs if they wish.I do not see it as child abuse to teach a child these things,I view it as wrong and ignorant.

The point is that the beliefs are not those of the child. The beliefs belong to the parents (which is roughly defined by geography). Many children just accept what is taught to them without ever questioning it even when they get older.

WesternNight

Warping a child's mind to believe that things are wrong when they're not. Essentially telling them lies and instilling fear and guilt in them for no good reason whatsoever.

I mean, it's verbal and emotional abuse to shout at kids, call them names, make them afraid of what one might do to them.

How is it different?

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

But they're not given a fair chance, what is it you can't understand about this very simple fact?

You don't think its child abuse to teach children as a matter of fact, that the earth was created in 6 days and is only 6000 years old? You think it's wrong, but not child abuse?

I'm not sure what you mean by your second comment? Are you saying genital mutilation as a religious practice is NOT child abuse? Or raising a child in a religion that can result in death if they were to renounce their faith is not child abuse?

Just to clarify there I meant to say "How can you compare genital mutilation and murder to teaching creationism?" not child abuse,sorry about that!Edited now.

Anyway,no I don't think it's child abuse to teach a child such things because when people age they generally learn to think for themselves and question religion,which I'm sure everyone has done at some point.

Genital mutilation is of child abuse in a way but in most cases when circumsised men grow up they do not hate their parents for what they did,many men decide for themselves to get circumsised.

storm2811

mohawk wrote: »

The point is that the beliefs are not those of the child. The beliefs belong to the parents (which is roughly defined by geography). Many children just accept what is taught to them without ever questioning it even when they get older.

Yes I see what you mean but really now in my experience at least,everyone questions their faith and religion at some point in their lives.

WesternNight wrote: »

Warping a child's mind to believe that things are wrong when they're not. Essentially telling them lies and instilling fear and guilt in them for no good reason whatsoever.

I mean, it's verbal and emotional abuse to shout at kids, call them names, make them afraid of what one might do to them.

How is it different?

I think it is different because when children are taught about hell and what not,they are of course afraid at the time but it is not something that scars them mentally or physically really,it's hard to explain how I feel on the subject.
I mean,when people grow up,most of them are not so afraid of hell or whatever punishments they may have been taught about in their childhood as they were.
They realise that their parents were just trying to stop them from doing bad things,sorry,like I said it's hard to explain.:o

mohawk

storm2811 wrote: »

Genital mutilation is of child abuse in a way but in most cases when circumsised men grow up they do not hate their parents for what they did,many men decide for themselves to get circumsised.

When people speak of genital mutilation they are generally not talking about male circumcision as that doesn't have the same consequences as female genital mutilation carried out in parts of Africa supposedly as part of their religion.

Ickle Magoo

storm2811 wrote: »

I mean,when people grow up,most of them are not so afraid of hell or whatever punishments they may have been taught about in their childhood as they were.
They realise that their parents were just trying to stop them from doing bad things,sorry,like I said it's hard to explain.:o

I'd like to see you try explaining that to the multitude of people unable to enjoy most aspects of sex thanks to the associated religious guilt and repression...

storm2811

mohawk wrote: »

When people speak of genital mutilation they are generally not talking about male circumcision as that doesn't have the same consequences as female genital mutilation carried out in parts of Africa supposedly as part of their religion.

Ah I see,well then yes,I would believe that female genital mutilation is child abuse as it affects the person greatly throughout their lives.
Having spoken someone once who it happened to I would most definitely say that yes,it is.

mohawk

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'd like to see you try explaining that to the multitude of people unable to enjoy most aspects of sex thanks to the associated religious guilt and repression...

Good point!!
But then again the left over catholic guilt in the bedroom can make things feel a little naughty in an enjoyable way

storm2811

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'd like to see you try explaining that to the multitude of people unable to enjoy most aspects of sex thanks to the associated religious guilt and repression...

Well there is not much I can say there,I mean,I'm sure that's not what most parents intended to do to their children.
I do see where you're all coming from now though in regards to how parents teaching their children some aspects of religion can have several consequences in the future for the child.
Only when it's taken to the extreme though,I was thought about Catholic beliefs when I was younger and was never told things like "If you do X or Y you will burn in hell."
So it all depends really on who is telling the child such things and what they say.

Of course every parent who wants their child to be a part of their religion does not harm their child mentally in any way,I'm sure you all understand that?

MagicMarker

storm2811 wrote: »

Anyway,no I don't think it's child abuse to teach a child such things because when people age they generally learn to think for themselves and question religion,which I'm sure everyone has done at some point.

So what if some children grow up to think for themselves, they don't ALL do it. You're just not getting it, no matter what anyone says you're just going to continue to ignore what's plainly obvious. By your logic it makes absolutely no difference what we teach our children, because they'll just grow up and make up their own mind.

So, I think I'll teach my children to hate Jews, blacks and women, especially women, they are not equal to men, and must cover their face at all times. I'll teach my son that if his younger sister is raped, he should feel ashamed that she would allow such a thing to happen, he should probably kill her to honour the family.

storm2811 wrote: »

Genital mutilation is of child abuse in a way but in most cases when circumsised men grow up they do not hate their parents for what they did,many men decide for themselves to get circumsised.

Many men decide to do it for medical reasons, not for shíts and giggles. Just because men don't grow up to hate their parents doesn't mean it's right to cut off part of his penis!

There is such a thing as female circumcision too, how you would feel without a clitoris or labia?

Ickle Magoo

Storm2811,

Surely you can now see that by making claims of catholic children and islamic children it infers that those children should be learning and adhering to all that religion preaches - and many do. That some parents do not follow to the letter or omit certain edicts does not mean that the phrase is not apt.

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

So what if some children grow up to think for themselves, they don't ALL do it. You're just not getting it, no matter what anyone says you're just going to continue to ignore what's plainly obvious. By your logic it makes absolutely no difference what we teach our children, because they'll just grow up and make up their own mind.

So, I think I'll teach my children to hate Jews, blacks and women, especially women, they are not equal to men, and must cover their face at all times. I'll teach my son that if his younger sister is raped, he should feel ashamed that she would allow such a thing to happen, he should probably kill her to honour the family.

You have your opinions and I have mine,do you know any people who have grown up mentally damaged from what they were taught at a young age?
There are some but there are far more who haven't.

MagicMarker wrote:

Many men decide to do it for medical reasons, not for shíts and giggles. Just because men don't grow up to hate their parents doesn't mean it's right to cut off part of his penis!

There is such a thing as female circumcision too, how you would feel without a clitoris or labia?

There are many benefits to circumcision though so though it may not be pleasant,it's kind of better in the long run.

I've already said what I think about female circumcision if you read my above posts.

storm2811

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Storm2811,

Surely you can now see that by making claims of catholic children and islamic children it infers that those children should be learning and adhering to all that religion preaches - and many do. That some parents do not follow to the letter or omit certain edicts does not mean that the phrase is not apt.

Yes I do see what you mean,many valid points have been made on the subject and I can see how in some cases it would be classed as child abuse.

Ickle Magoo

storm2811 wrote: »

There are many benefits to circumcision though so though it may not be pleasant,it's kind of better in the long run.

It's not better in the long run for someone to chop off a perfectly healthy, legitimate and useful part of the body for the sake of some archaic ritual. :eek:

MagicMarker

storm2811 wrote: »

You have your opinions and I have mine,do you know any people who have grown up mentally damaged from what they were taught at a young age?
There are some but there are far more who haven't.

Well, let's see, approx 40% of Americans believe that God created the earth in 6 days. That's what happens when you indoctrinate children.

storm2811 wrote: »

There are many benefits to circumcision though so though it may not be pleasant,it's kind of better in the long run.

I've already said what I think about female circumcision if you read my above posts.

Kind of better? *sigh*

I hear what you're saying though, female circumcision bad, male circumcision good. :rolleyes:

storm2811

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's not better in the long run for someone to chop off a perfectly healthy, legitimate and useful part of the body for the sake of some archaic ritual. :eek:

It has many benefits,it's cleaner,therefore less prone to infection,many men have problems with their foreskin when they're older and need to circumcised anyway and it actually reduces the risk of STDs in men.

storm2811

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well, let's see, approx 40% of Americans believe that God created the earth in 6 days. That's what happens when you indoctrinate children.



Kind of better? *sigh*

I hear what you're saying though, female circumcision bad, male circumcision good. :rolleyes:

If I answer you again I will just be repeating myself.
Read my above post in regards to circumcision,no need to be rude either.

mohawk

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's not better in the long run for someone to chop off a perfectly healthy, legitimate and useful part of the body for the sake of some archaic ritual. :eek:

What I never got was that these people believe they were created by God and yet feel the need to chop off a piece of the body that they reckon was created by god. Ouch my head hurts