Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Yitzhak Rabin

From the IT today:

DANIEL McLAUGHLIN

ROMANIA HAS called for a European Union-wide strategy to deal with Roma migration, after raising concerns about France’s plan to dismantle hundreds of Roma camps and send their residents back to the Balkans.

France has deported some 200 Roma to Romania and is expected to expel about 650 more this month under a scheme championed by President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has linked crime with immigration and declared a “war” on delinquency.

The plan is part of a broad crackdown on crime by Mr Sarkozy that critics call a cynical bid to boost his flagging popularity. They also say the deportations are pointless, predicting that most of those ejected will quickly return to France.

“What has happened in Paris shows that we must have an integration plan across Europe for Roma citizens,” said Romanian president Traian Basescu.

“We understand problems created by Roma camps outside French cities. But we also support the right of every European citizen to travel freely in the union,” he added, noting that Bucharest and Rome had co-operated over issues with Roma living in Italy.

“We resolved the problem effectively by sending more police officers there. We will do the same with France,” he said.

Romanian foreign minister Teodor Baconschi warned of the “risks of populism and xenophobic reactions in a context of economic crisis”, and said Romanian officials would discuss the issue with French counterparts this month.

The French leader has been lambasted by rights groups and his Socialist rivals at home, and Agostino Marchetto, secretary of the Vatican’s Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, said “the mass expulsions of Roma are against European norms” and that responsibility for crimes “is individual, not collective”. “One cannot generalise and take an entire group of people and kick them out,” he added.

The move has not been criticised by the government in Bulgaria, however, which is also expecting the return of hundreds of Roma from France. Bulgaria’s leaders are now pursuing their own crackdown on crime.

“I find unacceptable this baseless and artificial dramatisation of a completely normal practice,” said Marin Raykov, Bulgaria’s ambassador to France.

“There is nothing more normal than for a member state of the EU, like France, to try and ensure that its laws, as well as European norms, are obeyed.”

I am not sure exactly where I stand on this issue.

On one hand, it goes beyond anecdotal evidence that Roma Gypsies are disproportionately involved in crime and have a far higher unemployment rate. On the other hand it is always disturbing when a group has their rights stripped from them.

I have only ever had negative experiences with Roma people.(I had c. €2500 stolen from my bank account in a ATM card scam) So my view could be tainted. But I have little sympathy for these groups who arrive, set-up illegal camps and contribute nothing to society other than to increase crime, illegal prostitution and human trafficking.

What is the legal reason that they are allowed to be deported? I would have thought that as EU citizens they are entitled to travel within the Union?

Also I found it odd that the Bulgarian government didn't seem to mind taking them back.

I'd be interested to hear people here's views on the topic.

Cookie_Monster

France has gotten very militant against any aspect of non french culture recently and rightly so.

They are there illegally.
Statistically it can be proven they contribute signifigantly to crime in whatever locality they are in.


Its a pity we won't do the same cos of the softly softly attitude here, **** them all out and be done with it. They contribute nothing and just cause hassle

Yitzhak Rabin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

France has gotten very militant against any aspect of non french culture recently and rightly so.

They are there illegally.
Statistically it can be proven they contribute signifigantly to crime in whatever locality they are in.


Its a pity we won't do the same cos of the softly softly attitude here, **** them all out and be done with it. They contribute nothing and just cause hassle

I agree with you re the crime and in general not contributing to society, and I have very little time for them personally.

But how are they there illegally? Most are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, which have a right to legally work anywhere in the EU?

Laminations

yekahs wrote: »

I have little sympathy for these groups who arrive, set-up illegal camps and contribute nothing to society other than to increase crime, illegal prostitution and human trafficking.

If an immigrant are constantly breaking the law, can s/he not be deported? If they have evidence that all of those being deported were engaged in illegal activities then I cannot see the problem.

Cookie_Monster

yekahs wrote: »

I agree with you re the crime and in general not contributing to society, and I have very little time for them personally.

But how are they there illegally? Most are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, which have a right to legally work anywhere in the EU?

I would assume they are there without papers, passport etc but even if not. Most are Romainian which is not part of the freedom of movement agreement (whatever its called), I would assume Bulgaria is the same (though not certain) which is why they are taking them back.

I also doubt they are registered with any French agency for either PPS equivalent or welfare or tax

Laminations

yekahs wrote: »

Most are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, which have a right to legally work anywhere in the EU?

I'm quite sure the French won't deport any Romas who are legally working, they'll be deporting the ones who are illegally squatting, robbing, begging, soliciting. Its just an issue because of the numbers involved.

barrackali

I agree with the French position on this situation with the Roma. They contribute feck all in Ireland except in terms of adding to the crime statistics, they don't wish to work.....they seem to think the world owes them a living.

The following CNN report relates to Roma promising to return to France...pretty much sums up what I've been saying:

"Over there, they were giving us food, money ... salary. Life is much better out there -- happier," Mariana Serban, a mother of four, told Romania's Realitatea TV. She told the reporter she did not work in France, and smiled when the reporter pointed out France would not give them any more money.
"That's what they say now, but they will give us money again," Serban said.

Nijmegen

An EU national in the country who commits a crime can be deported as a part of their sentence.

P. Breathnach

I'm not going to state a view on the rights and wrongs of the deportation: it's quite a difficult question.

But I think Sarkozy's action is unlikely to have any effect, and the CNN report cited by barrackali suggests much the same thing. The deportees will be back. What's more, I am sure that Sarkozy knows it: he is not stupid, and he has advisers who are not stupid.

It's a political stunt.

Cookie_Monster

"That's what they say now, but they will give us money again," Serban said.

what an attitude! would make you sick :mad:

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not going to state a view on the rights and wrongs of the deportation: it's quite a difficult question.

But I think Sarkozy's action is unlikely to have any effect, and the CNN report cited by barrackali suggests much the same thing. The deportees will be back. What's more, I am sure that Sarkozy knows it: he is not stupid, and he has advisers who are not stupid.

It's a political stunt.

If they are involved in crime on a pan-European, Interpol or Europol should be called in, and they should be treated like any criminal with ill-gotten gains, sieze all their assets (which they have no proof they earned) and deport them.

barrackali

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not going to state a view on the rights and wrongs of the deportation: it's quite a difficult question.

But I think Sarkozy's action is unlikely to have any effect, and the CNN report cited by barrackali suggests much the same thing. The deportees will be back. What's more, I am sure that Sarkozy knows it: he is not stupid, and he has advisers who are not stupid.

It's a political stunt.

Just like the M50 roundabout gypsies, most of them returned within 2 months of being sent back. An EU agreement needs to be struck that deals with the Roma gypsies, I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing how discriminated the Roma are.....I think the fact that they so involved in crime has something to do with that.

OhNoYouDidn't

Laminations wrote: »

If an immigrant are constantly breaking the law, can s/he not be deported? If they have evidence that all of those being deported were engaged in illegal activities then I cannot see the problem.

Two problems.

1: Evidence alone is not enough to punish anyone for anything. There is a judiciary for a reason. If as a punishment for a conviction the judge decides to deport, well thats one thing. This is another.

2: In this case they aren't even trying to treat each person on their merits and act accordingly. They are simply rounding up every single Roma in a genographical area and deporting them.

This is a fundamentally worrying approach.

I wonder would posters be quite as sanguine if the Brits rounded up all the Travellers over there and landed them back here.

OhNoYouDidn't

Laminations wrote: »

If they are involved in crime on a pan-European, Interpol or Europol should be called in, and they should be treated like any criminal with ill-gotten gains, sieze all their assets (which they have no proof they earned) and deport them.

So you agree they are entitled to a court hearing before any action, including deportation, is pursued?

bmaxi

France mustn't have enough bleeding heart liberals to play the ethnic cleansing card. When it comes to these people, (and their mirror images), the fascist within me stirs.

Laminations

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you agree they are entitled to a court hearing before any action, including deportation, is pursued?

A fast court hearing, yes.

Cookie_Monster

Laminations wrote: »

A fast court hearing, yes.

"Sir are you a Roma?"
"Yes Judge."
"Guilty, deportation, next please"

barrackali

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

"Sir are you a Roma?"
"Yes Judge."
"Guilty, deportation, next please"

I would also ask "how are you supporting youreself".....they won't be able to answer this......decision made.....deportation!

OhNoYouDidn't

Laminations wrote: »

A fast court hearing, yes.

So we agree that rounding up all members of an ethnic group and deporting them is dangerous and quite possibly falls under the definition of ethic cleansing.

Cookie_Monster

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So we agree that rounding up all members of an ethnic group and deporting them is dangerous and quite possibly falls under the definition of ethic cleansing.

its more like removing a cancer IMO

OhNoYouDidn't

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its more like removing a cancer IMO

No its not, and thats plain old racism.

deal with the criminals by all means. deporting an entire ethnic group with no hearing is something western nations should have left behind generations ago.

Could you imagine the outcry if Biffo ordered all Irish Jews deported because of Mossad activity in Ireland?

will be fascinating to see if the French supreme court allows this.

Cookie_Monster

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No its not, and thats plain old racism.

deal with the criminals by all means. deporting an entire ethnic group with no hearing is something western nations should have left behind generations ago.

Could you imagine the outcry if Biffo ordered all Irish Jews deported because of Mossad activity in Ireland?

I doubt they are deporting the entire ethnic group to be honest. They are deporting those who are living there in illegal camps, with no obvious means of support (paid employment). Its not racist at all, just practical. I'm sure its also not just Roma, if they raid and demolish one of these illegal camps they are hardly going to leave the one Spaniard* they come across while taking the rest now are they?

(*for example, could be any nationality or race)

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No its not, and thats plain old racism.

deal with the criminals by all means. deporting an entire ethnic group with no hearing is something western nations should have left behind generations ago.

Could you imagine the outcry if Biffo ordered all Irish Jews deported because of Mossad activity in Ireland?

will be fascinating to see if the French supreme court allows this.

Again, the EU doesnt allow for Romanians and Bulgarians to enjoy freedom of movement. One of the terms of their accession was that for a period of time, the citizens of both countries would still require certain documentation, based on the purpose for which they were travelling.

Thus
-They are not "entitled" to be in France (provided they are from Bulgaria/Romania or other non-EU states)
-If they have incorrect documentation, or none at all, then the French state is entitled to deport them.
-A "fair trial" is only going to be given to those who have played by the rules in the first place. Without the relevant documentation, they have no right to live there and the Courts will stand over that. Otherwise plenty of deportations would be illegal.

murphaph

yekahs wrote: »

But how are they there illegally? Most are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, which have a right to legally work anywhere in the EU?

They don't have any automatic right to work in France. Only Ireland, the UK and Sweden granted rights to the "newer" member states' citizens (like Poland, Czech Republic etc.) to work without permits. There are restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians in ALL of the 'old' EU states, including Ireland.

murphaph

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So we agree that rounding up all members of an ethnic group and deporting them is dangerous and quite possibly falls under the definition of ethic cleansing.

If the yanks rounded up a load of illegal paddies in Boston and shipped them home, nothing would be said except "fair cop", but because these people are non-white it's ethnic cleansing all of a sudden.

They are illegal immigrants, France is doing what we should be doing too. It sounds like this is just a small part of a general "zero tolerance" approach being introduced in France. Ireland needs one too!

Yitzhak Rabin

I agree.

Every now and again you have to put the PC nonsense to one side and look at the facts. The vast majority of Roma gypsies contribute nothing to the community. They leech the social welfare system. They use public services like health and education, giving nothing in return. Crime and Roma people are intrinsically linked. Not just petty crime, but heinous crimes like child prostitution.

Of course, people will say they are not all bad, and that there are good gypsies, but they are the exception that proves the rule.

I think that if people have not got a valid working visa and cannot prove they require asylum here then they should be deported. Even the process of deporting them probably costs a fortune in legal assistance and interpreters, but at least it is a solution. Those who have been deported should also be refused entry to return.

OhNoYouDidn't

murphaph wrote: »

If the yanks rounded up a load of illegal paddies in Boston and shipped them home, nothing would be said except "fair cop", but because these people are non-white it's ethnic cleansing all of a sudden.

They are illegal immigrants, France is doing what we should be doing too. It sounds like this is just a small part of a general "zero tolerance" approach being introduced in France. Ireland needs one too!

If they rounded up every Paddy in Boston and deported them without bothering to find out whether they are legal or not there would be an issue.

Which is what is happening here.

OhNoYouDidn't

murphaph wrote: »

They don't have any automatic right to work in France. Only Ireland, the UK and Sweden granted rights to the "newer" member states' citizens (like Poland, Czech Republic etc.) to work without permits. There are restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians in ALL of the 'old' EU states, including Ireland.

You have no way of knowing the status of the people being discussed here.

Thats the problem with kneejerk blanket approaches.

Max Power1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

"Sir are you a Roma?"
"Yes Judge."
"Guilty, deportation, next please"

+1

Obviously the french do not have a Joe Duffy equivalent PC brigade that give out about "Ethnic Cleansing" the criminals.

All they do is beg and steal, why are they not deported from here anyway!

metrovelvet

Based on what I have read on this thread, I would imagine it would be very hard for a Roma to get a job because no one would want to hire them.

OhNoYouDidn't

Max Power1 wrote: »

+1

Obviously the french do not have a Joe Duffy equivalent PC brigade that give out about "Ethnic Cleansing" the criminals.

All they do is beg and steal, why are they not deported from here anyway!

You have so spectacularly missed his point its actually hilarious.

WHOOOOOSSSHHH etc.

P. Breathnach

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You have so spectacularly missed his point its actually hilarious.

WHOOOOOSSSHHH etc.

Let's be fair. When groups like the Roma and the Travellers are mentioned here, many people disengage their brains on the presumption that these discussions do not merit any thought. Just press the buttons.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If they rounded up every Paddy in Boston and deported them without bothering to find out whether they are legal or not there would be an issue.

Which is what is happening here.

You are not comparing like with like.

Furthermore, as far as I am aware, it is simply the illegal members of the community which France intend to deport. This is within their rights, and due to the high level of illegality amongst Roma immigrants, it can be spun by a PC media as "deporting all and sundry".

Bottle_of_Smoke

If we could just convince people to stop giving them money they'd leave. When I first came to Coleraine there was loads of them but in Ulster-Scot heartland people have more sense about this kind of thing! The only ones left now is a guy who plays accordian. Which is fine I have no prob giving someone money if they're providing entertainment.
It's those big issue freeloaders and professional beggar women with different babies every dayI have no time for and will not get a cent off me

Nodin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its more like removing a cancer IMO

Funny enough, thats the kind of language people use during ethnic cleansing and racial stereotyping. In fact that specific metaphor comes up again and again in a well known work that treats widely on the subject.

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

... in Ulster-Scot heartland people have more sense about this kind of thing...

Heartland? You use the word heartland?

demonspawn

Personally, I'd never offend a Romanian gypsie. They'll put a curse on you that'll make your skin break out in boils and your eyes melt in their sockets!:eek:

On a more serious note, this won't have much affect on the Roma. They've been kicked around like an old can for hundreds of years now, they're used to this kind of treatment.

I do find it strange however that European Jews got their own country after the events of WWII, the Roma got what exactly? The Nazis rounded them up just like they did the Jews, but nobody shed a single tear for them.

bullpost

The reality is that this is a group of people who are citizens of EU countries and will eventually have full rights to go where they please - as such its probably better for the EU to come up with a plan to integrate them more positively into society.
Start by creating a program to provide stability and education to the children and incentives to the parents to change their ways - how practical this is I haven't a clue but we have to start somewhere.
Moving them around the chessboard of Europe for evermore aint gonna fix the problem.

murphaph

I disagree. Just treat them the same as any other EU citizen.

If they abide by the law, no problem. If not, face the consequences like the rest of us.

Nodin

And it has to be stressed that nobody is suggesting turning a blind eye to any illegal activity. Its targeting by ethnic group thats the problem.

metrovelvet

Nodin wrote: »

And it has to be stressed that nobody is suggesting turning a blind eye to any illegal activity. Its targeting by ethnic group thats the problem.

I think its better to deport them then to let the problem build to proportions where people want to exterminate them.

Jeboa Safari

I think they're dead right, and we should be doing the same to any illegal immigrants, especially if they're involved in crime.

Nodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think its better to deport them then to let the problem build to proportions where people want to exterminate them.

Well I'm sure the shipping, rail and airline industries would welcome such an approach. However, its hardly the ideal to target the group rather than the individual. Otherwise we might as well live in tribes.

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Heartland? You use the word heartland?

lol thought it came across light-heartedly

demonspawn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its more like removing a cancer IMO

I'm sure the Nazis would have loved you.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

Cookie_Monster

demonspawn wrote: »

I'm sure the Nazis would have loved you.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

what has that got to do with my point. Lazy, illegal spongers who live a life of crime and begging are a cancer regardless of what their background is. In this case the majority of the people that the French are expelling (not killing, mind) are Roma but I very much doubt they are all Roma. You just need to look at what goes on in Calais to see that.

Nodin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what has that got to do with my point. Lazy, illegal spongers who live a life of crime and begging are a cancer regardless of what their background is. In this case the majority of the people that the French are expelling (not killing, mind) are Roma but I very much doubt they are all Roma. You just need to look at what goes on in Calais to see that.

Thats not, however, the way you were talking earlier......

"Sir are you a Roma?"
"Yes Judge."
"Guilty, deportation, next please"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67635659&postcount=17

Onoyoudidn't wrote:

So we agree that rounding up all members of an ethnic group and deporting them is dangerous and quite possibly falls under the definition of ethic cleansing.

to which you responded

its more like removing a cancer IMO

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67636115&postcount=20

Imposter

And the funny thing is Sarkozy's people come from South Hungary where most of the Roma are from

Link (In german)

Nicolas Sarkozy stammt aus einer alten ungarischen Adelsfamilie mit Schloss und Ländereien südöstlich von Budapest. Der Vater, Pál Sárközy, floh 1944 vor der Roten Armee erst nach Deutschland und später nach Frankreich. Der Familienname kommt aus der südungarischen Region Sarköz, und er werde vor allem von Roma getragen, sagt Rudolf Sarközi. Ob auch unter Sarkozys Vorfahren Roma waren, ist nicht bekannt.

walshb

The Roma have proved time and time again that they are parasites, with no intent whatsoever to integrate, work, change, help or progress anywhere they inhabit. When will it sink in?:rolleyes: Their MO is to beg, steal and sponge whatever they can. That surely isn't welcoming, is it?

P. Breathnach

walshb wrote: »

The Roma have proved time and time again that they are parasites, with no intent whatsoever to integrate, work, change, help or progress anywhere they inhabit. When will it sink in?:rolleyes: Their MO is to beg, steal and sponge whatever they can. That surely isn't welcoming, is it?

Every last one of them, I suppose.

So what is to be done with them?

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Every last one of them, I suppose.

Ever had one as a work colleague? I think it is fair to say his description is applicable to the vast vast majority of them.

So what is to be done with them?

Ideally I'd like them deported but afaik Ireland's a free for all for anyone in the EU.

I'd like to see community service type tasks or professional training to be mandatory for those in receipt of jobseekers allowance(everyone, not just romas). And for Joe public not to give them any money. They don't deserve it when they have no plan to ever do anything differently.