christian views on transsexauls?

Links234

Normally I wouldn't even ask the opinions of religious people but I read something that has me shocked and absolutely disgusted. the article catholic & transsexual: one woman's confession.

A Catholic blogger has taken on the question of transgendered individuals and their rights and needs in a two-part column at religious site Catholic Exchange

Kochan then posted the letter, in which the author claimed to have been born transgendered but married a woman with the hope that his marriage might "cure" him of his deep-seated identification as a woman. "My marriage helped...for a while...but in the end my nature could not be denied," the letter’s author wrote. "We tried for 7 years to ’beat’ it," the letter continued. "We tried so hard. We failed. In the end, my body was tearing itself apart--I was running a blood pressure of 180/120, my blood chemistry was a wreck, and I was suffering cardiac arrhythmias which placed me in the ER too often for our comfort. I was also miserable. I made it clear to my wife that I was willing to die for her, but I couldn’t promise to live much longer even despite the fact I would not suicide."

I am very thankful I never had such health problems, but I can still relate to that a lot. over the last few years I had been extremely depressed, getting regular anxiety attacks and I became agoraphobic, and it was getting worse. being transsexual is no picnic that's for sure, and had I kept on trying to fight it, I know for sure things would have kept on getting worse. over a year ago, it just felt like the life was leaving me, that by suppressing a vital part of myself, any joy or happiness in life was being crushed with it.
so I can imagine what the person was going through

what has me so shocked and disgusted is the response to this.

Added Kochan, "I understand that you were in distress even to the point of your health being wrecked and I’m not in any way making light of that. But objectively speaking, what you proposed and carried out as a remedy to your distress was the breaking of God’s law that says that you may not mutilate your body." Continued Kochan, "It is better to die than to offend God. It would have been better for you to have given your life to stay in obedience to God, than to break His law and to drag along into sin your poor spouse." Kochan continued, "That is hard, but really everyone of us should feel that way about every serious sin we have committed. We should prefer the death of our bodies to the death of our souls, shouldn’t we?

the line "it's better to die than to offend god" has me sick to my stomach with shock.

I wouldn't usually talk to religious people about their opinions, I'd rather just stay out of it, but reading this disgusted me. the thought that someone could be so callous to anothers suffering for the sake of god getting offended? the sentiment that transsexuals should just curl up and die rather than transition? I have to ask is this really the opinions of the majority of christians?

because I thought that despite a lot of the hatred towards trans people from religious people, that there was no real stance on them, and that there was nothing about transsexuality in the bible or at least certainly not in how medical treatment for trans people exists today. is there some official church stance?

please tell me you don't believe people like me should just curl up and die rather than transition and 'offend god'?

Zombrex

Links234 wrote: »

the line "it's better to die than to offend god" has me sick to my stomach with shock.

Why did that shock you?

What did you think Christians believed? That it was ok to offend God? Not a big deal, ah sure whats the harm?

I'm an atheist so I think that all of what was said in the response is nonsense. But it doesn't shock me. It is what some Christians believe. You don't have to believe it.

Links234

Wicknight wrote: »

Why did that shock you?

What did you think Christians believed? That it was ok to offend God? Not a big deal, ah sure whats the harm?

I'm an atheist so I think that all of what was said in the response is nonsense. But it doesn't shock me. It is what some Christians believe. You don't have to believe it.

it shocked me because it sounds like the kind of thing that the really crazy religious people might believe, like the kind that would rather die than get a blood transfusion, or if someone was sick, would pray rather than get them real treatment.

I know I don't have to believe what christians believe, I'm probably an atheist or agnostic or something, I don't really know, but it just really shocked me. and I just hope that this isn't a mainstream view.

When you consider the death of their saviour to save everyone, it seems death in return is a small return as long as there's no death of the soul.
But yeah the answer seemed obvious enough - don't mess with god's work/plan, end of.

wonderfulname

bluewolf wrote: »

When you consider the death of their saviour to save everyone, it seems death in return is a small return as long as there's no death of the soul.
But yeah the answer seemed obvious enough - don't mess with god's work/plan, end of.

Ok two questions, which is the more important aspect of gods work, the brain or the body? because in this case they are completely incompatible and one of them needs to change.

and secondly isn't allowing yourself to die suicide, and isn't that sinful in itself in part because it is messing with gods plan also?

PDN

Links234 wrote: »

it shocked me because it sounds like the kind of thing that the really crazy religious people might believe, like the kind that would rather die than get a blood transfusion, or if someone was sick, would pray rather than get them real treatment.

I know I don't have to believe what christians believe, I'm probably an atheist or agnostic or something, I don't really know, but it just really shocked me. and I just hope that this isn't a mainstream view.

Do you understand that there's a slight difference between having a blood transfusion to save your life and getting your bits chopped off in elective surgery?

Fanny Cradock

Ignore Wicknight. He isn't the atheist spokesman for Christianity. Though sometimes I suspect he fancies himself as such.

I'm not sure that religious people are necessarily the homogeneous hate-filled group you assume. I would have to query what you mean by religious. You can't really lump us all in together without addressing the huge differences between religions, then opinions between denominations within a specific religion, then local opinions (at church level, I mean ) and finally personal opinions. For example, if you look at the end of the site you linked to you will find that the only response to the article is from a priest who works specifically with people from the GLBT community.

I remember the pastor at my church telling how he and his wife happened to meet a transsexual/ transgender person in the street one evening near Christmas. This person was clearly in some distress so they stopped to talk. From what I gather there was much sadness in her life which, in no small part, related to the struggle with identity. (Sorry, in my ignorance I don't know if I should say he or she so I'll stick with the latter). The upshot of the story was that, like yourself, she was under the impression that there would be no place for her in church, and that on principle all Christians would automatically be filled with hate towards her. More importantly, she felt that the love of God was somehow denied to her. This isn't the case and she was invited to come to the church any time. She never did.

I'm not saying that it is all rosy and that people will be waiting at the doors of the church with open arms and filled with love. Frankly speaking, with something as unusual as transsexualism there will always be people who are hostile and feel threatened. This type of reaction is irrespective of religious beliefs. I think this is simply part of being human. No doubt you know a lot about this.

If you head along to the forum of SoF you will find a lot of Christians who don't fit into traditional pigeon-holes. There are a number of gay and lesbian members (not sure about transsexual - I've never asked) and perhaps there you will find some people with whom you can share your experiences.

Michael G

I can understand (I think) why you were distressed by someone saying "It is better to die than to offend God."

However, Christians believe that this world is only a preparation for eternity. The Catholic Missal (Missal means Mass book; please forgive me if you knew already what a Missal is) calls eternity a place of "light, coolness and peace" where we are set free from time and rest forever in total contentment — knowing God, which we are not capable of doing with the faculties we have in this world.

I think the person you are quoting was trying to say that if you go against God in this life, you cannot expect to pass into eternity. Probably he or she meant well.

When the news media or other commentators talk about the Christian teaching about sex, they often misrepresent it. Many of them genuinely misunderstand it; others choose to pretend that they do.

The reason that many Christian denominations, including the Catholic Church, consider sex so important is that it is the way that God has arranged for humans to be brought to life. Christians believe that every child ever conceived is "made in the image and likeness of God." Sex between men and women is the way that these eternal persons are brought into being. It is very difficult to imagine anything more significant.

That is why the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations cannot approve of sex between people that are capable of giving life to someone else, but have made it impossible.

Nevertheless, people love each other. They might be men and women, or men and other men or women and other women, or people like you who are not content with the sexual identity you grew up with. CS Lewis explained in (I think) the Screwtape Letters that love and pleasure were reflections of God; it was the Devil who twisted them and turned them sour.

I am a heterosexual man and I do not have sex with women. There are homosexual and lesbian Christians who do not have sex. In your new life, you will have to make the same choice. If you have decided that you are really a woman and not a man, I have no right to question that. May God bring you safely through it.

Links234

PDN wrote: »

Do you understand that there's a slight difference between having a blood transfusion to save your life and getting your bits chopped off in elective surgery?

slight difference, but surgery that can hugely improve someone's quality of life, and maybe save their life too (which I think would have been the case here). also, there's more to transition than surgery like the hormone treatment which is much more important, some are happy with that alone and don't have surgery at all. and it's misunderstood that the surgery you're talking about is about getting bits chopped off, it's not. rearranged would be better word for it.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ignore Wicknight. He isn't the atheist spokesman for Christianity. Though sometimes I suspect he fancies himself as such.

I'm not sure that religious people are necessarily the homogeneous hate-filled group you assume. I would have to query what you mean by religious. You can't really lump us all in together without addressing the huge differences between religions, then opinions between denominations within a specific religion, then local opinions (at church level, I mean ) and finally personal opinions. For example, if you look at the end of the site you linked to you will find that the only response to the article is from a priest who works specifically with people from the GLBT community.

I remember the pastor at my church telling how he and his wife happened to meet a transsexual/ transgender person in the street one evening near Christmas. This person was clearly in some distress so they stopped to talk. From what I gather there was much sadness in her life which, in no small part, related to the struggle with identity. (Sorry, in my ignorance I don't know if I should say he or she so I'll stick with the latter). The upshot of the story was that, like yourself, she was under the impression that there would be no place for her in church, and that on principle all Christians would automatically be filled with hate towards her. More importantly, she felt that the love of God was somehow denied to her. This isn't the case and she was invited to come to the church any time. She never did.

I'm not saying that it is all rosy and that people will be waiting at the doors of the church with open arms and filled with love. Frankly speaking, with something as unusual as transsexualism there will always be people who are hostile and feel threatened. This type of reaction is irrespective of religious beliefs. I think this is simply part of being human. No doubt you know a lot about this.

If you head along to the forum of SoF you will find a lot of Christians who don't fit into traditional pigeon-holes. There are a number of gay and lesbian members (not sure about transsexual - I've never asked) and perhaps there you will find some people with whom you can share your experiences.

I'm not trying to lump anyone together, in fact I know that some parts of christianity are open and accepting to transgender people, like in this case: congregation embraces transgender minister, and I know of many other transgender people in different faiths

even in islam transgender people can be accepted, like in iran. sex changes are not against islamic law. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XErEWc9_okQ

my question is about the article I linked, that the sentiment of "just die" was shocking and disturbing to me, it seemed extremely callous. I wanted to know if this was a majority, or a minority view, or if there's anything expressly against transsexuality in the bible.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Links234

Michael G wrote: »

If you have decided that you are really a woman and not a man, I have no right to question that. May God bring you safely through it.

just to point out, it is not any decision on my part, I definitely did not choose the way I am. I just am.

The Smurf

I think there are a couple issues here. One is about babies born with indistinct genitalia. The doctors sometimes operate on these babies. They grow up and are troubled by their gender and feel it is not right. I'm troubled by that. I think it might be better to leave them the way they are... I don't know. I'm not sure that that is even relevant to this discussion.

But as regards a man or a woman who is unhappy with their gender, having been born a biological male or female, I think that the whole idea of changing one's sex is not right. God made us as male and female. The truth of the matter is that we all have elements of masculine and feminine. We are body and soul, we are made by God. To interfere with this is self-will and therefore sinful, upsetting the natural order that God established. It also profoundly harms the person in various ways.

I think that to enter into this kind of transition surgery is a very bad idea, because it offends God our creator Who made us, by what is essentially to mutilate the body, and it does not result in the peace and wholeness or whatever it is that the person desires. It is a grave injustice to people that so-called medical professionals would offer this drastic step as a possible solution.

I have a link to a good website about this matter. If anybody wants me to post it, I can.

The bottom line is, that gender re-allignment surgery is not a cure for this problem. It will only make things worse. It is a retrograde step. The key to our ultimate fulfilment is not found in our body, or in the body of a lover or any other person. Our fulfilment is found only in God. This life is fleeting, and to be sure there are many sufferings and trials to endure. There is the spiritual battle to be fought, against the world, the flesh and the devil! We have to die to ourselves, our own selfish desires, whatever they may be, and whatever idols may be established in our lives, whether it be sex, alcohol, or the thought that in this idea of changing my gender, there lies what I have been longing for all my life! No, our longing is for God alone, and only in Him we can be healed and made new.

As regards preferring death to sin, to offending God, this is nothing new. St Maria Goretti preferred to be stabbed to death that consent to the sexual advances of Alessandro, a farm worker.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ignore Wicknight. He isn't the atheist spokesman for Christianity. Though sometimes I suspect he fancies himself as such.

I'm not sure that religious people are necessarily the homogeneous hate-filled group you assume.

Well done for once again missing my point :rolleyes:

My point was that it is odd to be shocked by someone who thinks you shouldn't offend God. You all can argue back and forth till the cows come in as to whether an operation to give the outward appearance of being a different gender (I personally think the term sex change is silly, you aren't changing your sex) is or isn't offensive to God. That wasn't my point.

And telling people to ignore me is not exactly classy behavior of a mod. I would report the post but strangely that doesn't seem to do much on this forum :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

Links234 wrote: »

I'm not trying to lump anyone together [...]

my question is about the article I linked, that the sentiment of "just die" was shocking and disturbing to me, it seemed extremely callous. I wanted to know if this was a majority, or a minority view, or if there's anything expressly against transsexuality in the bible.

Fair enough. I just wanted to highlight the impossibility of getting consensus on such a subject matter. Even on this forum, which has a fairly small community, you will probably get a range of answers from acceptance all the way to rejection and then everything in between.

The bible doesn't speak of transsexuality. It simply wasn't possible back then. I don't know how to approach such a sensitive issue from a biblical position, and I'm sure that many Christians would feel the same. Much thought, study and discussion would be needed. And even then...

With this in mind, I really can say what the opinions of Christians I know would be. We could, of course, talk about it from a theological perspective. Does one, for example, consider transsexualism to be sin? Is transsexualism simply a biological abortion (I don't mean that as an insult) that upon "correction" (horrible word - can't think of anything better) any male and female committed Christian marriage is to be blessed? Should we talk about salvation and what that means for all creation and not dwell on our flawed and finite bodies? Ultimately, I would like to think that the majority of Christians I know would not propose death as the preferred option. But who is to say? This will divide people.

TBH, the actual two part exchange is very long, and I don't have the will to read it. There may be more to the blogger's position than what is presented in the review. Perhaps you could email the blogger in question and ask them for some clarification. Alternatively, you could start a thread on that other forum I suggested.

The Smurf

wonderfulname wrote: »

Ok two questions, which is the more important aspect of gods work, the brain or the body? because in this case they are completely incompatible and one of them needs to change.

and secondly isn't allowing yourself to die suicide, and isn't that sinful in itself in part because it is messing with gods plan also?

To be clear, to prefer death to sin is not to prefer suicide to sin. Suicide is sin. On the contrary, it illustrates a mindset we must aim for as Christians - to prefer death to sin. It's an attitude to prefer death to offending our infinitely good God.

We must accept ourselves as we are, as our body and soul reality. I think that another example is apt here. I think of Michael Jackson. He chased this dream that somehow, if only he could get the 'face' that he desired, then all would be well and he would be at peace... It's an illusion.

Fanny Cradock

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not sure the blogger meant it that way.

The Smurf

I was wondering if anyone could tell me why doctors sometimes operate on babies with indistinct genitalia? As I see it, they make their own decision on whether it should be a boy or a girl, and then do their procedure. But then perhaps the child grows up, and comes to realise the body and soul do not match. The doctors botched it. What I don't understand is why don't the doctors do a test and look at the chromosomes, surely that would tell them if it was a boy or girl baby? Then they needn't go blindly blundering in with their scalpels. They could instead wait 'til the child is older, or else perform some corrective surgery. This is the only situation where I could accept that surgery might be acceptable. But where a person was born as a distinct biological male or female, then I think the person should try to accept their reality.

MagicMarker

The Smurf wrote: »

We must accept ourselves as we are, as our body and soul reality.

Do you indulge in cosmetics? Deodorant? Cologne?

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

The Smurf

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do you indulge in cosmetics? Deodorant? Cologne?

Do you take a bath? Surely we should just accept ourselves the way we are, body odour and all?

(hint: I don't think there is any comparison between surgically altering your genitals and using aftershave or Lynx.)

MagicMarker

The Smurf wrote: »

Do you take a bath? Surely we should just accept ourselves the way we are, body odour and all?

(hint: I don't think there is any comparison between surgically altering your genitals and using aftershave or Lynx.)

Why? If we must accept ourselves as we are, then why alter ourselves in ANY way?

I'm not comparing using deodorant to getting a sex change, I'm just applying what you said to EVERYTHING, rather than what I do or don't personally agree with.

Links234

The Smurf wrote: »

I think that to enter into this kind of transition surgery is a very bad idea, because it offends God our creator Who made us, by what is essentially to mutilate the body, and it does not result in the peace and wholeness or whatever it is that the person desires. It is a grave injustice to people that so-called medical professionals would offer this drastic step as a possible solution.

I have a link to a good website about this matter. If anybody wants me to post it, I can.

The bottom line is, that gender re-allignment surgery is not a cure for this problem. It will only make things worse.

ok what you are saying here is absolutely wrong!
its uninformed and dangerous

lets get something right here, transition IS the cure. when people have treated transsexuality as something psychological, it only ended up in more horrible suffering and pain for the people being treated. this is an article about some of the horrendous treatment trans people have had to endure while under psychological "care" - the gender gulag: voices of the asylum. you cannot cure someone of who they are

its the official stance of the american psychological association that you cannot treat transsexuality as a psychological, countries like the UK and france have official policies that it is not a psychological disorder. there's been loads of research recently that show physical causes, differences in the brain and even certain genes that trans people have. this is something that happens in the womb where the body develops as male, but the brain stays as female, or the other way around. so who they are as a person is a woman (and this cannot be changed) but has a male body. the only successful treatment is to correct the body, and that's the only treatment that has been proven again and again and again.

another thing to understand is that transition isn't just surgery, it may or may not include surgery, but what it means is transition from male to female, and that's in a social sense as well as a physical sense. the most important thing in this is hormone replacement treatment, which really changes the body and how a person feels. take a look at my thread this is what the transition looks like when a boy becomes a girl and you'll see what I mean. you'll also see happy transsexual young women, and this is the kind of peace that transition brings to them.

here's a funny thing, why do men have nipples?
because when I start hormone treatment I'm going to grow breasts. I just find it amazing how the body works in that way, that you stop male hormones and introduce female hormones and the body changes to become female. it's really wonderful. I have to wonder if there is a god did he design human bodies this way, like physical redundancies in case someone female is born with a male body? like god put us together thinking if that happens, we can improvise!
why else would men have nipples?

anyway
the idea that transition will "make things worse" is just plainly wrong, there is no end of transsexual women and men out there that will tell you that it was definitely the right thing for them and improved their lives, often SAVED their lives.

if you have a link to a website that is saying that this will make things worse DON'T post it because that kind of thing is simply dangerous. it's like advising people not to have other potentially life-saving treatments and procedures because it will "make things worse". instead, contact them and tell them that what they are saying is wrong and it's very dangerous and can negatively impact people lives spreading misinformation.

I also don't like the idea that this is "mutilating" the body, for me I think it's incredibly beautiful. the surgery I think is corrective.

The Smurf wrote: »

As regards preferring death to sin, to offending God, this is nothing new. St Maria Goretti preferred to be stabbed to death that consent to the sexual advances of Alessandro, a farm worker.

I don't think that corrective treatments are anything like being forced into sexual relations, completely different case
I don't really see why changing sex is a sin either.

The Smurf wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone could tell me why doctors sometimes operate on babies with indistinct genitalia? As I see it, they make their own decision on whether it should be a boy or a girl, and then do their procedure. But then perhaps the child grows up, and comes to realise the body and soul do not match. The doctors botched it. What I don't understand is why don't the doctors do a test and look at the chromosomes, surely that would tell them if it was a boy or girl baby? Then they needn't go blindly blundering in with their scalpels. They could instead wait 'til the child is older, or else perform some corrective surgery. This is the only situation where I could accept that surgery might be acceptable. But where a person was born as a distinct biological male or female, then I think the person should try to accept their reality.

"the body and soul do not match" is a really really great way to explain how transsexual people feel

it's really interesting though, there are lots of different ways that people can be born intersexed, and someone said before that one thing that can cause some people to be born intersex is the same thing that can cause some people to be born transsexual. that being born with "indistinct genitalia" as you put it can be the same thing, only that transsexuals have genitalia that look normal, so they just say it's a boy or it's a girl, only the transsexual person can say that their body and soul don't match.

so we could be talking about the same thing here.

also, they cant just look at chromosomes and say it's a boy or girl, that's not how things work. there are many people with unusual chromosomes, and also men with XX and women with XY chromosomes. so as you say, if a doctor looked at chromosomes to determine the child's gender, it could be just as big a disaster and the child could still grow up to find their body and soul don't match.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The bible doesn't speak of transsexuality. It simply wasn't possible back then.

hang on, transition as we talk about it today wasn't possible back then, but that didn't mean that transsexuals didn't exist. that's like saying people with poor sight weren't possible back then because we didn't have glasses. the treatment didn't exist, but that doesn't mean the condition didn't.

many cultures across the world have had gender variant people that were often accepted as their identified gender or were classified as a 'third gender'. like the hijra in central asian countries, two-spirit people in native american tribes, or fa'afafine in samoan culture.

there's plenty of examples in nature too
transgender chicken

SonOfAdam

That some christians would tell you to 'curl up and die' would show that they have missed the whole point of the gospel of grace: that while we were still sinners God sent his son to redeem us. The christian believes in the redemptive power of Jesus, that holds us in the face of all brokeness.
He is the only one who can show you who you truly are, as He sees you.
There are a few ministries in this area but this guy has been through the same issues you face. God bless.

Fanny Cradock

Links234 wrote: »

hang on, transition as we talk about it today wasn't possible back then, but that didn't mean that transsexuals didn't exist.

That was a poor turn of phrase on my part. I didn't intend to imply that transsexualism only began to "exist" with advancements in medical knowledge. Rather, I intended my words to be understood in relation to such medical treatments. In other words, while I accept that transsexuals existed back then, I don't believe that transsexualism was understood as having a root in physiology. Indeed, I would be very surprised if the idea of transsexualism as we understand it occurred to any Babylonian, Jew, Syrian, Greek, Roman citizen or whoever else inhabited that part of the world all those many years ago. This means that I believe the answer to your question is, "No, the bible doesn't comment on it".

You were perfectly right to correct me. I hope I've clarified my position a little better.

Links234

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I didn't intend to imply that transsexualism only began to "exist" with advancements in medical knowledge.

thanks for clarifying, sorry if I got on the offensive there, I've come across plenty of people who thought that way, like transsexuals only exist because of medical advances.

caseyann

Famous quotes,love thy neighbour,treat those as you wish to be treated,and judge ye who have not sinned first.
I dont think there is anything in Christianity to stop people from loving or been whom ever they wish.So trans gender for me is non of my business or anyone else's.And i doubt those people are saints who said that and been quite honest idiots,Thats their own personal judgement and not what they have been taught from Christianity.

What they say has nothing to do with Christianity.

Fanny Cradock

Links234 wrote: »

thanks for clarifying, sorry if I got on the offensive there, I've come across plenty of people who thought that way, like transsexuals only exist because of medical advances.

No problems. Sometimes what I think doesn't quite make it all the way to the keyboard. I can only imagine at some of the reactions you've encountered.

Links234

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

No problems. Sometimes what I think doesn't quite make it all the way to the keyboard. I can only imagine at some of the reactions you've encountered.

well one of the more outlandish things I've been told was "sounds like you're possessed"

Fanny Cradock

Links234 wrote: »

well one of the more outlandish things I've been told was "sounds like you're possessed"

You sure you're not

Fanny Cradock

Actually, I've just come across this site:

http://www.transchristians.org/

Who would have thunk it! Interesting stuff.

Links234

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Actually, I've just come across this site:

http://www.transchristians.org/

Who would have thunk it! Interesting stuff.

good link Fanny Cradock, thank you

Links234

so just to follow up, would people here agree with what that transchristians site says? or just disagree with what the person in the article I quoted said?

because I know the pope has spoken out against transsexuals before, but I don't really think that his views are even held by all catholics.

The Smurf

Links234 wrote: »

so just to follow up, would people here agree with what that transchristians site says? or just disagree with what the person in the article I quoted said?

because I know the pope has spoken out against transsexuals before, but I don't really think that his views are even held by all catholics.

What did the Pope say? Can you provide a link to his address?

SonOfAdam

While most christians would disagree with the sentiments in the original article I doubt you will find many who would concur with the transchristian site. From an albeit limited reading my concern is the focus of the people involved. There is very little mention of Jesus (apart from the androgynous bit) which is quite strange since the focus of the christian IS Jesus.

They seem to be more concerned with the celebration of themselves as transexuals - much in the same way as the Metropolitan church celebrates their homosexuality - than celebrating the redeeming power of Jesus and His work in their lives. Their focus is on themselves - not on the source of our healing.

Links234

The Smurf wrote: »

What did the Pope say? Can you provide a link to his address?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3902931/Pope-Saving-world-from-homosexuality-like-saving-rainforests.html

In comments at the Vatican that are likely to provoke a furious reaction from homosexual groups, Benedict also warned that blurring the distinction between male and female could lead to the "self-destruction" of the human race.

seems very silly to me

SonOfAdam wrote: »

While most christians would disagree with the sentiments in the original article I doubt you will find many who would concur with the transchristian site. From an albeit limited reading my concern is the focus of the people involved. There is very little mention of Jesus (apart from the androgynous bit) which is quite strange since the focus of the christian IS Jesus.

They seem to be more concerned with the celebration of themselves as transexuals - much in the same way as the Metropolitan church celebrates their homosexuality - than celebrating the redeeming power of Jesus and His work in their lives. Their focus is on themselves - not on the source of our healing.

I don't really understand what you mean, celebration of themselves? the point of the site seems to be about telling people that can be christian and trans, and that they are not sinning by being themselves. I don't know what way you'd have the website ordered, or what message you'd want it to send, but I'm seeing a message that says "you can still celebrate jesus even if you are transsexual"

or maybe I'm not asking the question right.
what I mean to say is, would you agree with the site that it is not wrong to be transsexual/not a sin to get a sex change?

The Smurf

Links234 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3902931/Pope-Saving-world-from-homosexuality-like-saving-rainforests.html

seems very silly to me

I don't really understand what you mean, celebration of themselves? the point of the site seems to be about telling people that can be christian and trans, and that they are not sinning by being themselves. I don't know what way you'd have the website ordered, or what message you'd want it to send, but I'm seeing a message that says "you can still celebrate jesus even if you are transsexual"

or maybe I'm not asking the question right.
what I mean to say is, would you agree with the site that it is not wrong to be transsexual/not a sin to get a sex change?

I would propose being themselves would be by accepting their God-given reality, that is , how one was created, even if it is very difficult, hence the Lord's words on denying oneself and taking up one's cross. The cross would be dying to the desire to try and fix yourself, and instead allow the Lord Jesus Christ to fix you in His own, unique and effective way, in a new way we could never achieve on our own.

Links234

The Smurf wrote: »

I would propose being themselves would be by accepting their God-given reality, that is , how one was created

but the fact is, this IS how transsexual people are created, that the feelings of dysphoria, the discomfort and wrongness in one's physical body is reality, every bit a reality as you feeling comfortable with your body is a reality for you.

The Smurf

Links234 wrote: »

but the fact is, this IS how transsexual people are created, that the feelings of dysphoria, the discomfort and wrongness in one's physical body is reality, every bit a reality as you feeling comfortable with your body is a reality for you.

How do you know I am comfortable with my body? Truth be told, I wish I was taller and more handsome. But I am not. I have to accept that. Nobody is entirely happy with every aspect of themselves. Perfection is not to be found in this life.

Links234

The Smurf wrote: »

How do you know I am comfortable with my body? Truth be told, I wish I was taller and more handsome. But I am not. I have to accept that. Nobody is entirely happy with every aspect of themselves. Perfection is not to be found in this life.

comfortable with your physical sex I mean

MagicMarker

The Smurf wrote: »

I would propose being themselves would be by accepting their God-given reality, that is , how one was created, even if it is very difficult

Wouldn't you give the opposite advice to a homosexual?

PDN

Links234 wrote: »

so just to follow up, would people here agree with what that transchristians site says? or just disagree with what the person in the article I quoted said?

because I know the pope has spoken out against transsexuals before, but I don't really think that his views are even held by all catholics.

I think there are two issues here. One is the advice Christians would give to somebody who is considering going down the transgender route (obviously we're talking spiritual advice, since most Christians are not qualified in medicine or psychology). The second issue is how Christian churches treat those who have already gone down that road and are now transgendered.

On the first issue, I doubt if most Christians have much knowledge or understanding of transgender issues. I don't think the argument about simply 'remaining the way God made you' is useful. We don't, for example, use that argument to convince people to reject cochlear implants and remain deaf. However, I think many of us are unconvinced that the rather drastic process of gender reassignment is justified in treating what may be a psychological problem.

But what about the second issue - churches accepting already transgendered individuals into their faith community? As a pastor, I would see a parallel here with divorce. We teach that marriage should be a lifelong commitment, but we have many people who arrive through our doors already divorced and possibly on their second and third marriage. We have to love and accept people for who they are and where they are now. Similarly, I would hope that we would welcome transgendered people and demonstrate genuine love and concern for them.

Ush1

PDN wrote: »

I think there are two issues here. One is the advice Christians would give to somebody who is considering going down the transgender route (obviously we're talking spiritual advice, since most Christians are not qualified in medicine or psychology). The second issue is how Christian churches treat those who have already gone down that road and are now transgendered.

On the first issue, I doubt if most Christians have much knowledge or understanding of transgender issues. I don't think the argument about simply 'remaining the way God made you' is useful. We don't, for example, use that argument to convince people to reject cochlear implants and remain deaf. However, I think many of us are unconvinced that the rather drastic process of gender reassignment is justified in treating what may be a psychological problem.

But what about the second issue - churches accepting already transgendered individuals into their faith community? As a pastor, I would see a parallel here with divorce. We teach that marriage should be a lifelong commitment, but we have many people who arrive through our doors already divorced and possibly on their second and third marriage. We have to love and accept people for who they are and where they are now. Similarly, I would hope that we would welcome transgendered people and demonstrate genuine love and concern for them.

So you think they are mentally ill? You do realise before you can have such a procedure you have to go through a battery of psychological examinations.

PDN

Ush1 wrote: »

So you think they are mentally ill? You do realise before you can have such a procedure you have to go through a battery of psychological examinations.

Why don't you read someone's post before answering it? There is a huge difference between saying someone may have a psychological problem and saying they are mentally ill.

Psychologists etc change their minds like the wind and are certainly not infallible. For example, as recently as 1973 the American Psychiatric Association classed homosexuality as a mental illness. Passing a few psychological examinations is no guarantee of the wisdom or correctness of a course of action.

Ush1

PDN wrote: »

Why don't you read someone's post before answering it? There is a huge difference between saying someone may have a psychological problem and saying they are mentally ill.

Psychologists etc change their minds like the wind and are certainly not infallible. For example, as recently as 1973 the American Psychiatric Association classed homosexuality as a mental illness. Passing a few psychological examinations is no guarantee of the wisdom or correctness of a course of action.

I read your post entirely.

Tell me the difference. You're saying, speaking on behalf of Christians, they may be mentally ill, i.e. have a psychological problem is suffering from a mental illness.

Yes they do change credos, thankfully. So who is qualified in this area of wisdom and correctness to say if they are psychologically ill or not. Psychologists or Christians, which you doubt have much knowledge of transgender issues?

The Smurf

MagicMarker wrote: »

Wouldn't you give the opposite advice to a homosexual?

I'd give the same advice to a homosexually inclined person. That is, to accept your reality, wounded as you are, take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Jesus. In that way, you can be healed.

To act out homosexual desires is a reparative effort that doesn't actually work.

I think you rather selectively quoted my original post to support an alternative agenda.

sensibleken

The Smurf wrote: »

I'd give the same advice to a homosexually inclined person. That is, to accept your reality, wounded as you are, take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Jesus. In that way, you can be healed.

To act out homosexual desires is a reparative effort that doesn't actually work.

I think you rather selectively quoted my original post to support an alternative agenda.

Sorry to jump in. Do you realise what transexuality is. It is when the brain is physically of a different sex than the body is. The treatment for which is corrective surgery after hormone treatment.

I would think corrective surgery is ok, no? back problems, correcting birth defects etc. so you not believe in medical intervention in medical issues?

as people have pointed out there is nothing in the bible about transexuality

genuine questions im not trying to be rude

SonOfAdam

Links234 wrote:

or maybe I'm not asking the question right.
what I mean to say is, would you agree with the site that it is not wrong to be transsexual/not a sin to get a sex change?

I think by asking this you are looking to be affirmed in your position by those who would fundamentally disagree with it. Having said that, you can only come to Jesus as you are and no amount of people telling you to be different changes that. I'm no expert in transexualism but I am an expert in brokenness as I live it everyday and all I can do is come before Him who is able to bring healing to the deepest part of my being.

See here from a psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins hospital Baltimore (one of the forerunners in sexual reassignment surgery)

MagicMarker

The Smurf wrote: »

I'd give the same advice to a homosexually inclined person. That is, to accept your reality, wounded as you are, take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Jesus. In that way, you can be healed.

To act out homosexual desires is a reparative effort that doesn't actually work.

I think you rather selectively quoted my original post to support an alternative agenda.

Homosexually inclined, what does that mean? The reality for a homosexual person is that they are homosexual. But you think they should reject this, even though it’s naturally occurring. This is how they were ‘’created’’.

Likewise, this is how transgendered feel. This is how they were ‘’created’’. This is their ‘’God given reality’’.

Apparently, God made a mistake, and now these people are suffering for it, but they’re not allowed to do anything about it.

PDN

Ush1 wrote: »

I read your post entirely.

Tell me the difference. You're saying, speaking on behalf of Christians, they may be mentally ill, i.e. have a psychological problem is suffering from a mental illness.

No, it isn't. I am no doctor, but I have studied psychology at undergraduate level, and there is a clear distinction between "having a psychological problem" and "suffering from a mental illness". Psychologists tend to see psychological problems as the result of life stress, and the development of maladaptive behavior patterns, rather than as part of a disease process or biological imperfection.

Perhaps you are confusing psychiatry and psychology?

For example, phobias such as claustrophobia are commonly viewed as psychological problems rather than mental illnesses.

So who is qualified in this area of wisdom and correctness to say if they are psychologically ill or not.

If you really read my post as entirely as you claim then you will know that I already said "most Christians are not qualified in medicine or psychology".

Psychologists or Christians, which you doubt have much knowledge of transgender issues?

Again, no-one here except you is talking about illness. But, much as it might irk you, we live in a Western democracy where those of us who may not hold qualifications in a field are still allowed to have opinions and to voice those opinions when asked to by others. Heck, those of us who are qualified in the field of theology even support your right to hold and voice an opinion on that subject despite an apparent lack of any qualifications.

PDN

MagicMarker wrote: »

Homosexually inclined, what does that mean? The reality for a homosexual person is that they are homosexual. But you think they should reject this, even though it’s naturally occurring. This is how they were ‘’created’’.

Likewise, this is how transgendered feel. This is how they were ‘’created’’. This is their ‘’God given reality’’.

Apparently, God made a mistake, and now these people are suffering for it, but they’re not allowed to do anything about it.

Let's keep on the subject of trans-sexuals please. We've had numerous threads where these kind of opinions concerning homosexuality as behaviour or as inclination have been aired ad neauseam.

Ush1

PDN wrote: »

No, it isn't. I am no doctor, but I have studied psychology at undergraduate level, and there is a clear distinction between "having a psychological problem" and "suffering from a mental illness". Psychologists tend to see psychological problems as the result of life stress, and the development of maladaptive behavior patterns, rather than as part of a disease process or biological imperfection.

Perhaps you are confusing psychiatry and psychology?

For example, phobias such as claustrophobia are commonly viewed as psychological problems rather than mental illnesses.

If you really read my post as entirely as you claim then you will know that I already said "most Christians are not qualified in medicine or psychology".

Again, no-one here except you is talking about illness. But, much as it might irk you, we live in a Western democracy where those of us who may not hold qualifications in a field are still allowed to have opinions and to voice those opinions when asked to by others. Heck, those of us who are qualified in the field of theology even support your right to hold and voice an opinion on that subject despite an apparent lack of any qualifications.

Psychology is the study of mental functions among many other things. It covers brain functions.

I think perhaps you are confused on it despite any study you may have done:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

Phobias you used in your example are just a type of anxiety disorder and are very much indeed a mental illness. You are infering the same thing despite wanting to sugar coat it in a P.C. way.:)

Erm, I'm well aware of your right to voice an opinion. I asked you first to clarify it then a follow up question asking to justify it. Much as it might irk you, would be nice if you read my posts entirely and addressed what I said rather than spinning off on a nice tangent to your own ends.

So you're saying you've no qualifications to make assumptions about "problems" or illness' where as psychologists clearly do?