Probate question

jos28

My beloved Mam died recently and myself and my brother are joint executors of her will. She left her house and a few bob, her will states that she wants everything to be divided equally amongst her 4 children. I rang her solicitor yesterday who told me that her will must go to probate.
I was under the impression that probate is only necessary if the estate is not straightforward. My Dad's estate went to probate but I thought this was because Mam's name was not on the deeds of their house. Could someone explain if probate is really necessary and why.
Many thanks

Tom Young

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probate

seamus

Afaik, "probate" is just the term for execution of the will.

There are other things which must be considered before the will can be executed - claims against the estate, the validity of the will etc - and these are part of the probate process too.

If the estate is straightforward, then the probate process should be simple. The term often used for dying without a will is "intestate" - perhaps you're getting confused with that?

My condolences on your recent loss.

FreudianSlippers

I don't know much about wills and probate - never something I've had any interest in, but I was under the impression that all wills went to probate if they needed to retitle any property or gather assets for distribution to beneficiaries?

I do know that occasionally there is some issue with claims against the will (e.g. creditors or something that need to be paid) and often there is a problem with the validity of a will... it could be something simple like it's not the original will (photocopy) and they just need a proof of witness affidavit or something to verify the validity of the will etc.

Just my 2cents, I'll defer to someone who knows more about this.

EDIT: Ah, they beat me to it... but looks like I was more or less correct!

mut

Where there is property involved you must extract a Grant of Probate. However the Probate Office in Phoenix House, Smithfield can do this for you provided you don't mind waiting a few months for an appointment. They have abit of a backlog down there but basically they will go through all the forms and procedures with you, help you complete the Oaths, Inland Revenue Affidavit etc but you will still need a solicitor in order to complete the registration of the property into you names or to sell the property.

jos28

Thanks everyone,
All clear in my mind now. It is the re-titling of property that is the decider in our case so. I was confused because we were told at the time of Dad's death that probate would not have been necessary if Mam's name was on the deeds of their house. The house will now have to put in our names hence the need for probate. I will do it myself (I think) so I suppose it will keep me busy for a while.
Thanks again everyone.

Lainey_b01

Hi Jos28, condolences on the sad loss of your Mam. I'm in a similiar position to you following my own Mam's passing 11 weeks ago. Just wonding how you & your brother are getting on doing the probate youselves? Initally had intended on letting the family solicitor do it but following reading an article on what costs can run up to I am considering completing it ourselves.

Faunglass

Hi. I lost my husband some years ago and needed the house put in my name .I couldn t afford a solicitor so decided to attempt the process myself.So glad I did because it really wasn t THAT difficult and the solicitors could have charged a lot.

On another issue, wounder if anyone could point me in the right direct.
My Mum passed away 2 years ago.According to my sister , My mum changed her will to leave me a house.With assurances from mum , I spent quite a lot of money on the house.Now only an old will has turned up and in that will the house is left to a nephew of mine.The new will was made at a Sheriffs office in Dublin but my sister cant remember who or where.My nephew and myself are desperate to settle the issue once and for all but don t know where to start. looking. Any help at all would really be appreciated as other members of the family are anxious for probates to be sorted.

nuac

Oisín you mention in this probate discussion

"something simple like it's not the original will"

That situation can lead to a rather fraught court application, especially if there is not 100% agreement amongst all next of kin, the beneficiaries in that copy will, the beneficiaries in any previous will etc.

For a start very detailed enquiries required as to what happened to the original will, followed by a detailed affidavit.

Solicitors normally store originals safely, with a back up photocopy ( since photocopying came in ) elsewhere in the office. Judges rightly become very curious if the original has gone walk about. If it the original was kept by the testator and if the original cannot be found after his/her death, there is the possibility that (s)he had attempted to revoke it by destroying it.

Also a photocopy can be forged in various ways etc etc

FreudianSlippers

nuac wrote: »

Oisín you mention in this probate discussion

"something simple like it's not the original will"

That situation can lead to a rather fraught court application, especially if there is not 100% agreement amongst all next of kin, the beneficiaries in that copy will, the beneficiaries in any previous will etc.

For a start very detailed enquiries required as to what happened to the original will, followed by a detailed affidavit.

Solicitors normally store originals safely, with a back up photocopy ( since photocopying came in ) elsewhere in the office. Judges rightly become very curious if the original has gone walk about. If it the original was kept by the testator and if the original cannot be found after his/her death, there is the possibility that (s)he had attempted to revoke it by destroying it.

Also a photocopy can be forged in various ways etc etc

Oh that's what I meant. That things can get complicated over what seem like trivial matters.

speedfight

nuac wrote: »

Solicitors normally store originals safely, with a back up photocopy ( since photocopying came in ) elsewhere in the office. Judges rightly become very curious if the original has gone walk about. If it the original was kept by the testator and if the original cannot be found after his/her death, there is the possibility that (s)he had attempted to revoke it by destroying it.

The law implies a presumption that the testator did destroy and revoke it, if it was last held by a testator and cannot now be found, which is more serious than the mere possiblility. Worth bearing in mind before heading off to deprive a solicitor of filing fees.

Faunglass

speedfight wrote: »

The law implies a presumption that the testator did destroy and revoke it, if it was last held by a testator and cannot now be found, which is more serious than the mere possiblility. Worth bearing in mind before heading off to deprive a solicitor of filing fees.

Thanks for that , but Mum s never had a copy of a will.Apparently my eldest brother came across a note in a diary where Mum originally made a will . No copy , which I find strange .In England , the Solicitor sent out a copy of the will. Having that . my children would know where to go .This way , nobody knows. Just wondered if there was a Central Office Though shouldn t think so) or somewhere where there s a list of Sheriffs , in this case 2001.Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Jo King

I have often seen advertising where people are anybody who has possession of or knowledge of a will of x person of y address deceased is asked to contact the advertiser. You might turn up a will.

Faunglass

JK...but where does one advertise, apparently advertised in the Gazette,solicitors bible I m told , but what if the person concerned didn t see the advert . Sorry but it s a lot of "what ifs , but s and the likes" thats going on.By the by, my nephew isn t even interested in the property.

Went on the internet to find out about Sheriffs in Ireland (always thaught of Sheriffs as American, Cowboys n Indian stuff) but didn t end up any wiser.
Appreciate you taking the time to answer.

speedfight

there is no central register of wills in Ireland. There are two Dublin Sheriffs, one county Dublin and the other city of Dublin. I do no know of any reason that the will would be made at a Sheriffs office but here are the contact details. Dublin City Sheriff's Office,; 13 Fownes Street,; Temple Bar,; Dublin 2. Tel: (01) 677 2110
Dublin County Sheriff's Office - Tolka Valley Bus Pk Ballyboggin rd 11 Co. Dublin

The Law Society will advertise for a lost will. I am not sure how successful that is but there is probably no better place. A national newspaper could also be used but again it is not guaranteed.

If the original will was not held by the testator, then the presumption of destruction does not apply and therefore all efforts to locate it should be exhaustively explored.

A solicitor is the most appropriate professional to contact and can provide you with the assistance you need.

Faunglass

Speedfight, thank you VERY much for that information , it s certainly a lot m ore than I had. Is it not a normal practice then for one to make a will at a Sheriffs (personally I wouldn t have thaught so, it s all part of the mystery.My sister does say "Sheriff" though. Thanks again.

jos28

Lainey_b01 wrote: »

Hi Jos28, condolences on the sad loss of your Mam. I'm in a similiar position to you following my own Mam's passing 11 weeks ago. Just wonding how you & your brother are getting on doing the probate youselves? Initally had intended on letting the family solicitor do it but following reading an article on what costs can run up to I am considering completing it ourselves.

Sorry to hear about your Mam Lainey, it sure is tough without them I had a meeting with Mam's solicitor this week. She made the entire procedure sound VERY complicated and full of pitfalls. I had no luck negotiating a flat fee. She wanted 2% but I got her down to 1.5% plus vat !! Its a huge amount of money and even though we would be splitting it between 4 of us, I still feel Mam glaring down at me and warning me not to give any more money to solicitors !
I rang the Probate office and they were very helpful, I got the forms yesterday and I reckon I will fill them in and take it from there. The will and estate are fairly straightforward. The main thing at the moment seems to have all details of assets/liabilities prepared. Hopefully it goes smoothly and myself and my siblings could spend the money on a weekend in New York or something nice to remember Mam by.

Treehouse72

Sorry, not strictly on topic, but does anyone know the timeframe for getting a Grant of Probate these days on a simple will (only 4 beneficiaries, no property, all assets being cash on deposit at Irish banks, no debt by the deceased)? I believe 3-6 months is the rule of thumb (from time of death to Grant being issued)....is that about right nowadays? Or are there backlogs or anything at the moment?


Cheers.

jos28

^
I rang the Probate Office this week and was told 27 weeks from the time you send your forms in until you get your appointment. That's if you are taking out probate yourself. Apparently it will take a solicitor 10-12 weeks. Are you sure you need to go to probate if there is only cash involved and no property ?

Treehouse72

jos28 wrote: »

^
I rang the Probate Office this week and was told 27 weeks from the time you send your forms in until you get your appointment. That's if you are taking out probate yourself. Apparently it will take a solicitor 10-12 weeks. Are you sure you need to go to probate if there is only cash involved and no property ?

Thanks for response Jos.

Re: doing it myself, I'd rather give the solicitor the business as he's been a family solicitor for many years, and I've negotiated a per hour rate with him rather than a %age, so it shouldn't be too expensive. Between giving him some good will and me not being 100% confident doing it myself, I thought it worth the money.

Re: 10 - 12 weeks, I guess that sounds about right. Seems to me it also takes about 10 - 12 weeks to get to the point of even applying to the probate office between collating assets and clearing Revenue. So all in all, that would make 20 - 24 weeks, or 5 - 6 months between the two which is the standard guesstimate.