College Fees - Political Suicide but Essential?

Bleedin Delish

Hey all just listening to the radio this morning and there seems to be more talk of introducing college fees.

While this would no doubt be political suicide is it necessary to fund and sustain the rise in numbers of college applicants?

What do you all think?

Nijmegen

As with all things, I wish they would do it in a logical and fair way and means test it properly, taking into account your and your family circumstances.

If you can pay €1,000 then pay €1,000, not the same cookie cutter figure that everyone over a certain arbitrary dividing line must pay, be they from a household of wealth or one of just-enough.

Cookie_Monster

The registration fee is as high as some course fees these days anyway...

MrDarcy

There is a very simple and fair solution to all of this... You pay your college fee's each year in full directly to the college, when you get the qualification, you get your fee's refunded by the government.

When I was in college and the fees were free, around 50% of those that started a course never finished it, not because they couldn't do it but because they p*ssed their grant all over the place. Fee's would sharpen minds and incentivise students to work for the qualification...

Nijmegen

MrDarcy wrote: »

There is a very simple and fair solution to all of this... You pay your college fee's each year in full directly to the college, when you get the qualification, you get your fee's refunded by the government.

When I was in college and the fees were free, around 50% of those that started a course never finished it, not because they couldn't do it but because they p*ssed their grant all over the place. Fee's would sharpen minds and incentivise students to work for the qualification...

I think a mixed approach is good: A loan based system, not upfront, where a certain amount is refunded off the amount you owe if you complete your education.

But, in a means tested way, education should not be free (or as near free as we have got it compared to the cost of providing it.)

mikemac

This debate comes up every year.
The government promised it will not happen in the lifetime of the Dail, they probably will stick to that promise, rightly or wrongly.

One thing that needs sorting is the grant system. Though Mr Darcy's plan makes sense too with of course hardship exceptions like if you have to drop out due to bereavement but that's a minor point

If you are self employed like farming a set of accounts is needed which you pay an accountant to prepare. Fair enough.
Submit in August, pay your registration and maybe by December or January you get your grant and claim back the registration fee.
What's with the 4 month turnaround?

At the moment, it's a set income figure so workers can be just slightly above it and lose out, maybe a graded scheme would be fairer.
And what's with judging under 23's on their parents income even if they are independant and don't live at home anymore?

MrDarcy

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think a mixed approach is good: A loan based system, not upfront, where a certain amount is refunded off the amount you owe if you complete your education.

But, in a means tested way, education should not be free (or as near free as we have got it compared to the cost of providing it.)

But that's exactly where the wastage, folks getting past year one and not past year two, three or four.

ardmacha

This has been discussed before
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055896806&highlight=level+fees

In a situation where the country is broke it is impossible to justify borrowing money so that there are no fees for students, many of whom come from relatively wealthy backgrounds. The relatively modest level of fee found in the UK should be introduced, life in NI hasn't ground to halt because of them and many students from the 26 counties continue to go to QUB and UU.

Nijmegen

MrDarcy wrote: »

But that's exactly where the wastage, folks getting past year one and not past year two, three or four.

Let's say each year costs €7,500 (the part time cost of some courses in DIT I see); if they do all 4 years, they get €1,000 knocked off each year of tuition.

If they only do year 1, 2 or 3 they get to pay the full €7,500 per year.

And means test to see what they should pay in the first place, a sliding scale, not an arbitrary number. Why not knock off 50% of the price for a middle income family that can pay 50%, rather than having them an inch either side of a dividing line that whacks them with 0% or 100% of the price.

Bottle_of_Smoke

UK system is perfect. Can we not just copy them.

I can't get a grant because my parents earn too much. But they have a huge mortgage so they can't afford to give me much.

I'd much rather I was given the grant money others get which I could pay back when I'm in employment after uni. This is how its done in the UK

I'd even pay back food/rent & book vouchers if they're afraid I'd drink it.

RichardAnd

I don't see college education as a right at all and thus, I do not believe the state should pay for college fees in any shape or form. In the united states, students must pay universities but the quality of graduate and college over the leaves our lot in the dust.

Paying fees for everyone has dumbed down college here in ireland. Colleges should NOT be state run, they should be private institutions competing against one another to offer the best courses. This would mean the CAO system could be dismantled and universities themselves could set entry criteria.

Things like this would give us the "smart economy". Continuing to pay a fortune to send Anto and Baz to Carlow IT to drop out of communications after a year will not.

McDougal

The biggest benefactors from 3rd level education are the corporations. They essentially get the state to pay for the training of their workers. Raise corporation tax.

Orchard Rebel

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't see college education as a right at all and thus, I do not believe the state should pay for college fees in any shape or form. In the united states, students must pay universities but the quality of graduate and college over the leaves our lot in the dust.

Paying fees for everyone has dumbed down college here in ireland. Colleges should NOT be state run, they should be private institutions competing against one another to offer the best courses. This would mean the CAO system could be dismantled and universities themselves could set entry criteria.

Things like this would give us the "smart economy". Continuing to pay a fortune to send Anto and Baz to Carlow IT to drop out of communications after a year will not.

Then why not have a student tax which kicks in on graduation or dropping out, which continues until your grants/fees have been repaid in full? The Revenue could even make arrangements with US/Australia etc to have deductions made on taxes paid there.

How do you achieve a "smart economy" in a country where college education is not based on academic ability but on ability to pay?

Cannibal Ox

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

UK system is perfect. Can we not just copy them.

They're talking about scrapping the loan system and replacing it with graduate taxes because as it is they can't afford the system. It is a better system but, for different reasons, it is costing to much. Students in England are getting their results today and students with the highest possible mark are going to be turned away from courses because the universities can't afford to take everyone on. So, it probably wouldn't be a good idea

ninty9er

ardmacha wrote: »

many students from the 26 counties continue to go to QUB and UU.

The state pays the fees of grant eligible students attending QUB and UU. Because of the economic geography of the region many of those heading north of the border for education are grant eligible.

ninty9er

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

The Revenue could even make arrangements with US/Australia etc to have deductions made on taxes paid there.

This is a crucial element of any plan.

RichardAnd

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Then why not have a student tax which kicks in on graduation or dropping out, which continues until your grants/fees have been repaid in full? The Revenue could even make arrangements with US/Australia etc to have deductions made on taxes paid there.

How do you achieve a "smart economy" in a country where college education is not based on academic ability but on ability to pay?

In most countries, college education is based on your ability to pay. There will always be scholarships mind.

southsiderosie

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't see college education as a right at all and thus, I do not believe the state should pay for college fees in any shape or form. In the united states, students must pay universities but the quality of graduate and college over the leaves our lot in the dust.

Paying fees for everyone has dumbed down college here in ireland. Colleges should NOT be state run, they should be private institutions competing against one another to offer the best courses. This would mean the CAO system could be dismantled and universities themselves could set entry criteria.

Things like this would give us the "smart economy". Continuing to pay a fortune to send Anto and Baz to Carlow IT to drop out of communications after a year will not.

I think that there should be fees, and that universities should set their own criteria, but I disagree that all universities should be private. In the US, because everyone pays tuition and fees, public universities are really the only viable option for a lot of students who couldn't afford to go to private universities like Columbia or Yale. And some of the best universities in the country are public: Berkeley, Michigan, and University of Virginia to name a few. There is fierce competition for students, and especially graduate students and faculty - because the research output of the faculty is really what determines the ranking of the university.

Orchard Rebel

RichardAnd wrote: »

In most countries, college education is based on your ability to pay. There will always be scholarships mind.

Perhaps but that doesn't guarantee a "smart economy".

What you appear to be advocating is a return to the system that existed in Ireland prior to the funding of college fees - where entry was based on being from the "right" back ground or the "right" school, with the odd bright poor kid being let in on a scholarship.

Since that was the system which produced most of our current crop of politicians, senior civil servants and captains of industry, a return to it hardly inspires me with confidence....

southsiderosie

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Perhaps but that doesn't guarantee a "smart economy".

What you appear to be advocating is a return to the system that existed in Ireland prior to the funding of college fees - where entry was based on being from the "right" back ground or the "right" school, with the odd bright poor kid being let in on a scholarship.

Since that was the system which produced most of our current crop of politicians, senior civil servants and captains of industry, a return to it hardly inspires me with confidence....

But arguably the prototype for the university-driven "smart economy" is the fee-paying US system - particularly the Silicon Valley model where universities, venture capitalists and entrepreneurs are all clustered in a specific area that becomes a hothouse of innovation and collaboration. Berkeley students pay over $10,000 a year, and Stanford over $30,000, with many receiving need-based financial aid. Even still, their educations are heavily subsidized; few pay the entire actual cost. And the combination of tuition, state support and generous alumni donations - another area where Irish universities are lacking - means that most American universities, especially those specializing in technology and engineering, are extremely well resourced, especially compared to their European counterparts.

Personally, I think a lot of the smart economy rhetoric is a load of bollix, but at a minimum, if Ireland wants to improves its universities (and the public balance sheet), students are going to have to pick up more of the cost of their education. And given the levels of brain drain in Ireland, this is even more important today.

ardmacha

The state pays the fees of grant eligible students attending QUB and UU. Because of the economic geography of the region many of those heading north of the border for education are grant eligible.

And of course such people would remain eligible for support if fees were introduced in the State.

Students in England are getting their results today and students with the highest possible mark are going to be turned away from courses because the universities can't afford to take everyone on. So, it probably wouldn't be a good idea

That says everything about grade inflation.

Orchard Rebel

southsiderosie wrote: »

Personally, I think a lot of the smart economy rhetoric is a load of bollix, but at a minimum, if Ireland wants to improves its universities (and the public balance sheet), students are going to have to pick up more of the cost of their education. And given the levels of brain drain in Ireland, this is even more important today.

I wouldn't disagree but I think that a return to the old system won't guarantee anything other than a continuation of the mediocrity of leadership we currently "enjoy". Therefore, I think the best way forward is a taxation system which ensures that students pay back every penny spent on their college education (plus an adjustment upwards for the increased cost of future education) but which doesn't preclude any bright kids from going to college in the first place.

southsiderosie

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree but I think that a return to the old system won't guarantee anything other than a continuation of the mediocrity of leadership we currently "enjoy". Therefore, I think the best way forward is a taxation system which ensures that students pay back every penny spent on their college education (plus an adjustment upwards for the increased cost of future education) but which doesn't preclude any bright kids from going to college in the first place.

I don't necessarily see it changing the leadership - those types will still be going to university. And frankly I think the leadership are a reflection of the political and business culture, not a driver of it. Changing access to higher education among previously marginalized groups in the US didn't necessarily create 'better' leadership or radical change, it just changed the face of power (Obama being a prime example).

I don't think that money should keep bright kids out of university, but I do think that all students should have to bear some responsibility for the cost of their education. There would be less meandering through courses because it's the 'done' thing, Ireland would stop subsidizing other countries' skilled workforces, and it would increase the competitiveness of Irish universities.

rebel.ranter

To be honest the system before "free fees" meant that the poorest & the richest in our society got to go to college but those in the middle suffered. They had too much income to qualify for a grant for fees but not enough spare to fund those fees.

The gains were really only noticed by the middle class of society with our new system.
It annoys me that people argue that the poorest would lose out if fees were re-introduced, the reality is that a grant system would likely take its place. The only people that are gaining in this current system is the middle-upper classes. Especially the upper classes, where they would have had to pay fees under the old system with the new one their bill dropped.
It reminded me of the time the road tax system changed in 1989 (or there abouts

SeaFields

rebel.ranter wrote: »

It annoys me that people argue that the poorest would lose out if fees were re-introduced, the reality is that a grant system would likely take its place.

and, with the fees being paid for by the majority, a lot more money could be allocated to the grants schemes to make sure those who really needed help getting to 3rd level received it.

Bleedin Delish

interesting to hear yesterday the Government's plans to target foreign students making up 50% of college places in Ireland (obviously so they dont have to fund them).
Now I only heard the headline and not the details but surely this means less places for Irish students so that it will drive up points in all courses even more so that only the nerdiest of nerds will be able to go to college :mad:

Nijmegen

Bleedin Delish wrote: »

interesting to hear yesterday the Government's plans to target foreign students making up 50% of college places in Ireland (obviously so they dont have to fund them).
Now I only heard the headline and not the details but surely this means less places for Irish students so that it will drive up points in all courses even more so that only the nerdiest of nerds will be able to go to college :mad:

Ohh it'll be self funding. In fact, it'll subsidize the Irish students.

Just like that money we're lending Greece at 5%.

Or the convention centre.

Or... Seriously, our f***ing government.

ardmacha

The government proposes increasing the number of foreign students by 50%, not making them 50% of students.

Or... Seriously, our f***ing government.

Ireland needs to increase its service exports, the government propose to do this and yet you eff them out of it for this. In this forum the government is criticised for not doing something and then criticised for doing something.

liammur

Bleedin Delish wrote: »

Hey all just listening to the radio this morning and there seems to be more talk of introducing college fees.

While this would no doubt be political suicide is it necessary to fund and sustain the rise in numbers of college applicants?

What do you all think?

I''m not sure if it would be political suicide, the labour canditate who brought in free fees promptly lost her seat in the next election.

Nijmegen

ardmacha wrote: »

Ireland needs to increase its service exports, the government propose to do this and yet you eff them out of it for this. In this forum the government is criticised for not doing something and then criticised for doing something.

The idea that the foreign students will pay for themselves, or subsidize Irish students, and not put any Irish students out is yet another assertion from our government that has had a long history of spewing baseless bull in this regard.

A lot of things have been supposed to pay for themselves in the past.

ardmacha

A foreign student paying a non EU fee to an educational institution can indeed pay for themselves. There are many questions about the government initiative, but this is not one of them.

maninasia

SeaFields wrote: »

and, with the fees being paid for by the majority, a lot more money could be allocated to the grants schemes to make sure those who really needed help getting to 3rd level received it.

Those who really need it could always get a grant, at least for the last few decades. As others mentioned the old scheme penalised students from PAYE families as opposed to self employed and the unemployed. You got ZILCH from the government and ironically it was a real struggle while rich and poor around you had a great time on the state's largesse. ONLY in Ireland..the land of supposedly fair but actually NOT fair at all.

The problem is students getting essentially free money to do courses and not paying back to society or else dropping out of the course. A government backed loan paid back following graduation over a number of years is the best option. You want to go to college fine buy you should pay for it like everybody else and do something useful with it..isn't the idea of getting an education supposed to be able to earn a better living

Mr Benevolent

Fees are essential, quite frankly. We need to be in line with other, better performing educational systems, and this is one way to do it.

beagle001

Registration fee is now 1500 massive jump from last year,increase it anymore and a lot of people wil have to give up their place at university.
University lecturers have come out and said themselves that any extra money generated by a fees stealth increase will never be put back into the education system.
The government could care less about the universities all they want is extra revenue to squander on anglo and nama.
People would not mind contributing something to atend university as long as it was directly invested into the education system but we all know that will never happen.

Scram

Well for one thing i cant affort the 1500 fee for registration and my parents cant either.

If something like this does happen ill be in serious trouble. Im in 2nd year of a degree course in computing and i really want to get to the end of it and give back what i can to the country. Wether that via tax or teaching, I really hope theres a job and a future for me in 3 years time.

southsiderosie

But in the greater scheme of things, 1500 a semester is not a lot of money given lifetime earnings differences for those with university degrees or some kind of third-level training versus those without. Taking out a loan to pay for school is just not that big of a deal, especially at these rates (as compared to paying $30,000/year for private unis in the US). As long as your debt doesn't exceed your expected income, it's not a serious financial hit. However, there would have to be some kind of grace period for finding employment, especially given the current economic situation.

hinault

Fees should be reintroduced immediately.

I had to pay my fees in the 1980's.
And remember we had a lot less places available at 3rd level back then.

We have fartoo many third level colleges and courses to be allowing free 3rd level education.

beagle001

We cannot compare Ireland and the states in respect to tuition fees.
If you have lived over there new graduates coming from high fee paying universities begin work on large salaries this is fact.
Different story here now that the sh-t has hit the fan,graduates will be lucky to get a job.
The fact is if fees are to be introduced it will screw many students as 1500 is not easy to come by these days never mind a higher demand for more.

southsiderosie

beagle001 wrote: »

We cannot compare Ireland and the states in respect to tuition fees.
If you have lived over there new graduates coming from high fee paying universities begin work on large salaries this is fact.
Different story here now that the sh-t has hit the fan,graduates will be lucky to get a job.
The fact is if fees are to be introduced it will screw many students as 1500 is not easy to come by these days never mind a higher demand for more.

Not everyone who goes to Harvard ends up in investment banking. And most people who go to public universities (where tuition is between 5-10,000/year) also come out with debt. But having $20,000 in student loans for a college graduate is not that big of a deal - most graduates will make at least that much when they graduate, and most loan programs will scale down payments for low-income and unemployed recipients.

ardmacha

I don't think anyone is proposing US style fee levels, rather UK style levels.

BeardyFunzo

What amuses me about the concept of college fees is that university heads are generally for them because they think that it will lead to increased funding for third level institutions.

Like that would happen. Road tax doesn't get exclusively spent on roads and the duty on cigarettes doesn't get spent on hospitals. A University fee or duty or tax (what ever fits best) will go toward universities, but it won't increase their funding.

TheReverend

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not everyone who goes to Harvard ends up in investment banking. And most people who go to public universities (where tuition is between 5-10,000/year) also come out with debt. But having $20,000 in student loans for a college graduate is not that big of a deal - most graduates will make at least that much when they graduate, and most loan programs will scale down payments for low-income and unemployed recipients.

No they wont not now, you will end up paying it off for years

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

In a situation where the country is broke it is impossible to justify borrowing money so that there are no fees for students

I can provide a very straightforward and easy to understand justification: the vast majority of taxes are paid by high earners, who coincide with third level graduates. Even given a cost of €20,000 per year for a four year course, someone earning ~€40k per annum will have paid that back in around a decade, which give four more decades of tax income. Its the best investment any government can make, unless you anticipate the country not existing in ten years.

I would qualify that by placing an emphasis on hard skills and business skills however.

The first place we need to start looking at with the colleges and universities is wastage and bloat within those institutions themselves, as with many public sector areas there is a lot of leeway for controlling the spending.

liammur wrote: »

I''m not sure if it would be political suicide, the labour canditate who brought in free fees promptly lost her seat in the next election.

Ah the joys of the Irish political system - bring in a nationally valuable educational option, but don't fix Mrs Murphy's pot holes or have the time to get our Jimmy off the parking ticket, and lose your seat. You can thank "comely maidens" Dev for that one.