Dublin Bus, Network Direct Phase 1

coolmangg

Does anybody know when the Network Direct Phase 1 will come online.
Latest info from them is that it will be in the next few weeks but they have been saying this for a while now.

Ive heard rumors that they are having difficulty with drivers/unions and people on the routes complaining.

I think it will be great, specially for 70 users, bypassing Blanchardstown, it is pretty frustrating that drivers/unions and naysayers are holding up/distorting generally good ideas/improvements to services.
It would be just typical of DB to take a good idea and allow it to be changed and altered until it is a shadow of its former self.

Amtmann

Moved.

richardjjd

I emailed the Network Direct office in DB yesterday (networkdirect@dublinbus.ie) regarding the implementation timetable (looking for something more specific that "summer" which is what the website says) but haven't heard anything from them yet. If I do hear anything, I'll post the information here.

KC61

It is all dependent on getting agreement with the NTA on routings and timetables, drawing up new timetables and driver/bus rosters and also getting driver agreement on the new rosters. The former was still ongoing as at the start of the month I believe.

It is to be honest something that is very difficult to pin down to a particular date given the complexities involved, but hopefully we shall see some movement in the coming weeks.

richardjjd

They were a little naive to present the rollout as achievable by summer 2010, then - and (as has been the subject of previous posts, and won't benefit from a re-airing here) the entire process would have gained from some improved communication.

Cookie_Monster

Pigs will fly before this project is finished.

there was a straight forward implementation plan that should be thoroughly finished with phase one by now but it still drags on and on and on. It is ridiculous

noelfirl

I'm personally feeling less and less interested in Network Direct on a day by day basis now. It's essentially now impossible for the Phase 1 changes to be instated before schools return, there's probably therefore going to be more hastle and issues when the changes are introduced then had there been with a bedding in period during July/August. Why was this whole plan first introduced to the public back in late April with a target date of mid-July when now it appears as if there never was a reasonable chance of that date being achieved? Why were public consultations introduced at what seems like a late stage, after setting the mid-July date in as a target? Why have these public consultations occurred where whatever 'greater good' ideas DB have come up with have been distorted and watered down by a militant minority opposed to essentially any change, and thus why have these 'minority inconvenienced' been given such priority to the point of (e.g.) the revised 25a/b and the 84 going-just-that-little-bit-further-down-the-road-to-UCD-for-no-reason-other-then-I-don't-want-to-have-to-change-bus. Are these public consultation, driver roster votes and other assorted turmoils going to be associated with each and every of the 5-6 phases? Judging by the length of time for Phase 1 to be finalised, let alone actually go into effect, this project will never reach completion, and/or will be watered down at every phase.

jack presley

Would it not have made sense to sort out the union/driver issues before announcing the date for implementation?

Then you don't look stupid when that date flies by without anything happening.

patrickbrophy18

noelfirl wrote: »

I'm personally feeling less and less interested in Network Direct on a day by day basis now. It's essentially now impossible for the Phase 1 changes to be instated before schools return, there's probably therefore going to be more hastle and issues when the changes are introduced then had there been with a bedding in period during July/August. Why was this whole plan first introduced to the public back in late April with a target date of mid-July when now it appears as if there never was a reasonable chance of that date being achieved? Why were public consultations introduced at what seems like a late stage, after setting the mid-July date in as a target? Why have these public consultations occurred where whatever 'greater good' ideas DB have come up with have been distorted and watered down by a militant minority opposed to essentially any change, and thus why have these 'minority inconvenienced' been given such priority to the point of (e.g.) the revised 25a/b and the 84 going-just-that-little-bit-further-down-the-road-to-UCD-for-no-reason-other-then-I-don't-want-to-have-to-change-bus. Are these public consultation, driver roster votes and other assorted turmoils going to be associated with each and every of the 5-6 phases? Judging by the length of time for Phase 1 to be finalised, let alone actually go into effect, this project will never reach completion, and/or will be watered down at every phase.

Amen to that. Phase one doesn't cover the burough of Dun Laoghaire thoroughly enough. The main focus of the review seems to be Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Stillorgan with a small mention of Blackrocks feeder buses. Instead of focusing mainly on 4 areas, would it not be better or more sensible to have a more evenly spread bus network in the DLRCC?

The 7 hasn't been mentioned at all and neither has the 45a, 59 and 8. I wonder what will happen to these routes?

The extra length of the 84 to UCD is required as UCD isn't serviced by the Luas. I also don't understand why the 84 frequency is somewhat inversely proportional to it's length. It doesn't make one bit of sense. This seems to be the same fate experienced by the 45 route. I am aware that the 145 is very frequent indeed and will be straightened out with the network review which I admire very much. However, the 45 route still connects Cabinteely, Cornelscourt, Newtownpark Avenue and Deansgrange directly with The Rock Road QBC. While I know that Bray and Blackrock are connected directly by DART and Commuter, the 45 takes a considerably large diversion away from this route between Shankill and Newtownpark Avenue on the N11. Also, I don't know why people would take one bus and then another bus all within Dublin along the same stretch of road, unless the change is from a long distance bus route to a Dublin Area bus route. Otherwise, it becomes indirect. Plus, at the moment arrival times at intermediate bus stops is highly eratic which makes the notion of changing buses even more off-putting. I can remember waiting for a bus at Cherrywood for half an hour.

KC61

jack presley wrote: »

Would it not have made sense to sort out the union/driver issues before announcing the date for implementation?

Then you don't look stupid when that date flies by without anything happening.

It probably would have been better to announce it without an implementation date.

From my experience observing public transport in Ireland, implementing these sort of changes often take longer than planned given the numbers of agencies involved, internal negotiations, and external consultation.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The extra length of the 84 to UCD is required as UCD isn't serviced by the Luas. I also don't understand why the 84 frequency is somewhat inversely proportional to it's length. It doesn't make one bit of sense. This seems to be the same fate experienced by the 45 route. I am aware that the 145 is very frequent indeed and will be straightened out with the network review which I admire very much. However, the 45 route still connects Cabinteely, Cornelscourt, Newtownpark Avenue and Deansgrange directly with The Rock Road QBC.

any of the Rock road buses (7, 4, 45, 8, etc) will be in a later release: 4 or 5 iirc

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Amen to that. Phase one doesn't cover the burough of Dun Laoghaire thoroughly enough. The main focus of the review seems to be Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Stillorgan with a small mention of Blackrocks feeder buses. Instead of focusing mainly on 4 areas, would it not be better or more sensible to have a more evenly spread bus network in the DLRCC?

The 7 hasn't been mentioned at all and neither has the 45a, 59 and 8. I wonder what will happen to these routes?

The extra length of the 84 to UCD is required as UCD isn't serviced by the Luas. I also don't understand why the 84 frequency is somewhat inversely proportional to it's length. It doesn't make one bit of sense. This seems to be the same fate experienced by the 45 route. I am aware that the 145 is very frequent indeed and will be straightened out with the network review which I admire very much. However, the 45 route still connects Cabinteely, Cornelscourt, Newtownpark Avenue and Deansgrange directly with The Rock Road QBC. While I know that Bray and Blackrock are connected directly by DART and Commuter, the 45 takes a considerably large diversion away from this route between Shankill and Newtownpark Avenue on the N11. Also, I don't know why people would take one bus and then another bus all within Dublin along the same stretch of road, unless the change is from a long distance bus route to a Dublin Area bus route. Otherwise, it becomes indirect. Plus, at the moment arrival times at intermediate bus stops is highly eratic which makes the notion of changing buses even more off-putting. I can remember waiting for a bus at Cherrywood for half an hour.

Phase 1 is purely covering the Stillorgan, Lucan and Blanchardstown QBCs.

The rest of Dun Laoghaire will be dealt with when the Rock Road QBC is up for review at a later stage.

As for your question re the 84, it is very simple. To operate a half-hourly service from Cherrywood to Newcastle requires a certain number of buses. To operate from UCD to Newcastle half-hourly would require more buses. Hence the drop in frequency.

The 145 is erratic because of the fact some buses operate via Bray Station and others don't - hence you get long gaps. That routing variation will be eliminated as part of the changes so there ought to be a predictable service along the N11 corridor.

coolmangg

Glad to see there is a lot of interest in this, and that it's not just me that is frustrated at the slow implementation.

I would love to know what the specifics are that are holding it up though.
Is it generally viewed as a good thing by users or are there certain gripes?
Or are these gripes just from the usual "no change" brigade!?

xper

noelfirl wrote: »

I'm personally feeling less and less interested in Network Direct on a day by day basis now. It's essentially now impossible for the Phase 1 changes to be instated before schools return, ...

I could accept a delay of even a few months if they got it right. Unfortunately, we may end up losing out on both counts.

Why have these public consultations occurred where whatever 'greater good' ideas DB have come up with have been distorted and watered down by a militant minority opposed to essentially any change, and thus why have these 'minority inconvenienced' been given such priority to the point of (e.g.) the revised 25a/b and the 84 going-just-that-little-bit-further-down-the-road-to-UCD-for-no-reason-other-then-I-don't-want-to-have-to-change-bus.

Public consultation is far too often looked upon by both the public and the organisation concerned as means of dealing primarily with objections. Far too much weight is given to negative feedback by failing to appreciate that nay-sayers are far more motivated to voice their opinion. How many people viewed the original proposals, thought 'Great, I'll look forward to that!' but, inevitably, wouldn't have communicated this to DB.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Amen to that. Phase one doesn't cover the burough of Dun Laoghaire thoroughly enough....

The phases are based, sensibly, on QBC corridors. Whatever way the phases were divided up, there would have been some adjacent/crossing routes that were dealt with at different times.

The extra length of the 84 to UCD is required as UCD isn't serviced by the Luas.

Under the original proposal, route 84 passengers headed to UCD would have transferred to the improved, high frequency 145 route. LUAS-UCD connectivity is irrelvant.

I also don't understand why the 84 frequency is somewhat inversely proportional to it's length. It doesn't make one bit of sense. ...

Set number of vehicles spread over a longer route means lower frequency. Remember that alongside the network review's stated goal of an improved service, DB want to do this while also reducing costs by reducing the total number of operating buses.

Also, I don't know why people would take one bus and then another bus all within Dublin along the same stretch of road, unless the change is from a long distance bus route to a Dublin Area bus route. Otherwise, it becomes indirect. Plus, at the moment arrival times at intermediate bus stops is highly eratic which makes the notion of changing buses even more off-putting. I can remember waiting for a bus at Cherrywood for half an hour.

I take it then that you meant "Amen to that ... except the bit about why have these 'minority inconvenienced' been given such priority to the point of (e.g.) the revised 25a/b and the 84 going-just-that-little-bit-further-down-the-road-to-UCD-for-no-reason-other-then-I-don't-want-to-have-to-change-bus."
A modern, efficent urban transport network necessitates vehicle and modal changes on a large proportion of passenger journeys. But in a well designed network, this requirement to make changes is catered for and are of no great burden to the passengers. You end up with more individual waits at stops and platforms but you're total waiting time drops dramatically. This should be the end result of the network review but DB seem to be loosing their nerve in the face of negative reactions such as yours above.


The aparrent fate of the 84 route illustrates where capitulation may actually result in a worse service in the future than currently available instead of the desired imporvements.

The route's primary role is connecting the city to north-east Wicklow's commuter belt (and act as a local service alongside the 184). It does this currently directly with an approx. 30/60min on/off-peak interval service with a long journey time. Not great but usable.
The original review proposal was to transform it to a shorter, more frequent connector service to the very high frequency a high capacity Route 145 and LUAS. This would have provided north-east Wicklow dwellers with a hugely reliable and flexible means of getting to/from a larger swathe of the city than before with a single change and, on average, much shorter total waiting time at stops.
Instead, apparently as a result of short-sighted resistence to the horrific idea of having to change vehicles, the service to north Wicklow will now be less frequent (the Phase 1 Stillorgan map states hourly in peak time) and, if you catch it in UCD, Stillorgan or Cabinteely, will actually take longer thanks to a diversion into and back out of Cherrywood.
Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.

EDIT: post got truncated during submission - reposted. Naughty forum software!

Alt_Grrr

coolmangg wrote: »

Or are these gripes just from the usual "no change" brigade!?

Its the "no change" brigade and there ineffective elected officials kicking up stink and trying to get there name in the paper (since in a few months time it might help them at the ballot boxes).

I'm glad to see DB do something (anything even) to improve the service, but this isn't going to happen if the Joe Duffy generation have anything to say about it!

AlekSmart

Posted by Xper :-

The aparrent fate of the 84 route illustrates where capitulation may actually result in a worse service in the future than currently available instead of the desired imporvements.

The route's primary role is connecting the city to north-east Wicklow's commuter belt (and act as a local service alongside the 184). It does this currently directly with an approx. 30/60min on/off-peak interval service with a long journey time. Not great but usable.
The original review proposal was to transform it to a shorter, more frequent connector service to the very high frequency a high capacity Route 145 and LUAS. This would have provided north-east Wicklow dwellers with a hugely reliable and flexible means of getting to/from a larger swathe of the city than before with a single change and, on average, much shorter total waiting time at stops.
Instead, apparently as a result of short-sighted resistence to the horrific idea of having to change vehicles, the service to north Wicklow will now be less frequent (the Phase 1 Stillorgan map states hourly in peak time) and, if you catch it in UCD, Stillorgan or Cabinteely, will actually take longer thanks to a diversion into and back out of Cherrywood.
Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.

Excellent post encapsulating all that should be bloody obvious to my senior management,but which,for a variety of reasons is not.

Cherrywood Luas is so full of opportunities for Public Transport useage it`s unreal,yet we are collectively running as fast as we can away from what could be a revolutionary sea-change for South Dublin/North East Wicklow Public Transport users.

A 30 Minute frequency 84 route could be sold to an entire new sector of customer whilst an hourly one will simply annoy the remainder.

I wonder what Finnegans will make of this opportunity,in the light of the Luas Bray extension`s long-fingering......

patrickbrophy18

AlekSmart wrote: »

Excellent post encapsulating all that should be bloody obvious to my senior management,but which,for a variety of reasons is not.

Senior management?

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Senior management?

+ all the rest of the numpties.

Local Politicians
Militant me feiners who don't want anything changed
middle management
NTA
DCC
DLRCoCo
UCD
etc

SafetyPin

Does anyone know if Network Direct will come into effect? I'm curious to see what happens in Phase 1 because it affects me before Phase 2 and then my bus routes will be changed, for the better I do not know yet.

angel01

I rang last week and noone bothered to ring me back so I wouldn't hold your breath :rolleyes:

o2bearebel

angel01 wrote: »

I rang last week and noone bothered to ring me back so I wouldn't hold your breath :rolleyes:

I emailed Dublin bus last week. They told me phase 1 was due to launch in mid September... we'll see.

"Our revised planned implementation date will be mid September.
However it will be well broadcasted in the media when it is being launched."

oneweb

There's a 2-page spread in Metro
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?eid=21b97be2-f3f7-4158-a67b-0b6971945c89&pnum=10

"
Network Direct
N11 Stillorgan, Dun Laoighre, Bray and North Wicklow
19th of September 2010

Dublin Bus is pleased to announce the first phase of Network Direct, a redesign of bus services in Dublin City.
"

That's a notice period of just 3 days (unless I missed a previous notice). They must think no-one needs to plan how much further they'll need to walk to a different stop... Wonder if they've put notices on the bus stops for those who don't get to read papers. They do say though that

"We have begun to remove information from bus stops in preparation for the changes and we will start posting new timetables in the week commencing 19th September 2010."

So if you see less information on your bus stop, you should have the cop-on to guess that it'll be changed.

devnull

No need to bring up two threads, a long one already open:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055890836&page=26

Cookie_Monster

DB wrote:

"We have begun to remove information from bus stops in preparation for the changes and we will start posting new timetables in the week commencing 19th September 2010."

:rolleyes:
No chance of adding info I suppose?

What about people who need to know current timetables at stops between now and then?

Flukey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Pigs will fly before this project is finished.

That is useful information. I wonder what routes they'll do!