€1m tunnel between Leinster House and the Department of Agriculture

dean21

The news that TDs are considering a proposal to build a €1m tunnel between Leinster House and the Department of Agriculture, in order to save themselves a 100-yard journey up Kildare Street (40 seconds walk) sounds like a bad joke
For f**K sake how long more are we as irish people going to let these p****S in the dail ride us.
They are closing hospitals and cutting every think else they can think of and they want 1 million euro spent so they dont have to walk the same footpath as the irish people
we are a joke as irish people even the brits would not do this if they still ruled us

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/really-...a-2182780.html

amacca

dean21 wrote: »

The news that TDs are considering a proposal to build a €1m tunnel between Leinster House and the Department of Agriculture, in order to save themselves a 100-yard journey up Kildare Street (40 seconds walk) sounds like a bad joke
For f**K sake how long more are we as irish people going to let these p****S in the dail ride us.
They are closing hospitals and cutting every think else they can think of and they want 1 million euro spent so they dont have to walk the same footpath as the irish people
we are a joke as irish people even the brits would not do this if they still ruled us

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/really-...a-2182780.html

Article is dated May 17th....old news?

Surely they are not going to go ahead with this...would have heard more uproar.

MrDarcy

There are two women screaming on Liveline about it right now...

MrDarcy

Ah now it is becoming clear what this tunnel is needed for. The government need a tunnel to go between the two buildings because they want to move civil servants from one building to the other and for it to be legal the civil servants have to be kept the same building, so a tunnel between the two buildings ticks that particular box, only in Ireland...

amacca

Dear god! seriously!

poppyvalley

MrDarcy wrote: »

There are two women screaming on Liveline about it right now...

I did not hear anybody screaming.....as you put it. Your flippant remark leads me to believe that you are a fianna faller

dean21

God knows where the tunnel is going
They might be afraid that the irish people are getting closer and closer to storming the dail

changes

They are prob building this tunnel so they can avoid members of the public and the media.

MrDarcy

poppyvalley wrote: »

I did not hear anybody screaming.....as you put it. Your flippant remark leads me to believe that you are a fianna faller

Defo not a FF man, on the next occasion the first FF person who comes to my door is going to be manhandled up my garden path and throw back out onto the street.

goulders

What a donkey, Joe arkins could not resist 2 minutes of fame on Joe Duffy's liveline, he came on to agree that proposal to build a tunnell between dept of Ag building and gov offices at a cost of 1 million was a good idea. Well Joe I think u just lost F Gael a massive vote. Well done.
PS I think u just blew any hope u ever had in politics.
Maybe a career in the circus as a clown might suit ya

poppyvalley

MrDarcy wrote: »

Defo not a FF man, on the next occasion the first FF person who comes to my door is going to be manhandled up my garden path and throw back out onto the street.

Need a hand?Sorry for the incorrect assumption:o

Riskymove

MrDarcy wrote: »

Ah now it is becoming clear what this tunnel is needed for. The government need a tunnel to go between the two buildings because they want to move civil servants from one building to the other and for it to be legal the civil servants have to be kept the same building, so a tunnel between the two buildings ticks that particular box, only in Ireland...

nonsense

civil servants can be routinely moved around offices in Dublin without any issue

Judgement Day

Copy of my email to FG headquarters. :mad:

To: finegael@finegael.com, joe@rte.ie
To whom it may concern:

I've just finished listening to Joe Duffy's Liveline programme and the performance of your Galway councillor takes some beating. He was speaking about the importance of building a €1 million tunnel to link the Dail to some offices a hundred yards away.....I suggest that you listen to the programme on RTE Real Player to get a feel for the public reaction to his performance. Another own goal!!! To win the next election all FF have to do is let you people shaft yourselves - first the crazy leadership contest now this. You've long ago lost my vote and I wonder how many more you lost today? Apparently FG have no policy on this outrageous waste of non-existent public money - perhaps you should develop one by tonight to try and limit the damage.


Sincerely,

sceptre

poppyvalley wrote: »

I did not hear anybody screaming.....as you put it. Your flippant remark leads me to believe that you are a fianna faller

It isn't a crime on this forum nor anywhere else to be a Fianna Failer (no, that is not an invite to discuss whether or not it should be). Whether someone is or is not a Fianna Failer isn't necessarily relevant to their having a point they'd like to make. Ask questions first, then throw stones (preferably skip the stone throwing part). Additionally this proposed tunnel is under consideration by the Dail in-house accommodation committee, which comprises one member from Fianna Fail (Michael Mulcahy), one member from Fine Gael (Paul Bradford) and one member from Labour (Pat Rabbitte), as you'll note from the article linked in the OP. This forum exists for the exchange and expression of thoughts and extended commentary on politics and current affairs, not merely as a cheerleading or town stoning gathering.

Constructive posting with a point is always infinitely better than a pithy ad hominem remark lacking a point. Just a useful thought.

On the point, here's a more recent article from the Tribune. I'm mentally searching for ways in which such a tunnel could itself possibly save €700,000 each year as the article suggests (I suspect that it's referring to the rent saved on additional property, which isn't inherently linked to the existence of such a tunnel, which really should have been explained in the article)

Riskymove

sceptre wrote: »

On the point, here's a more recent article from the Tribune. I'm mentally searching for ways in which such a tunnel could itself possibly save €700,000 each year as the article suggests (I suspect that it's referring to the rent saved on additional property, which isn't inherently linked to the existence of such a tunnel, which really should have been explained in the article)

it is referring to the rent which makes absolutely no sense

poor attempt at spin from those proposing this

it will cost €1m (probably more)

and save no money, except on what these TDs might have spent on an umbrella

Manic Preacher

Judgement Day wrote: »

Copy of my email to FG headquarters. :mad:

To: finegael@finegael.com, joe@rte.ie
To whom it may concern:

I've just finished listening to Joe Duffy's Liveline programme and the performance of your Galway councillor takes some beating. He was speaking about the importance of building a €1 million tunnel to link the Dail to some offices a hundred yards away.....I suggest that you listen to the programme on RTE Real Player to get a feel for the public reaction to his performance. Another own goal!!! To win the next election all FF have to do is let you people shaft yourselves - first the crazy leadership contest now this. You've long ago lost my vote and I wonder how many more you lost today? Apparently FG have no policy on this outrageous waste of non-existent public money - perhaps you should develop one by tonight to try and limit the damage.


Sincerely,

Arkins is from Clare

Mr.Applepie

How would constructing a tunnel from one building to another save money? Are there going to be offices based in the tunnel?
Prehaps it is another one of this governement's stimulus packages - they will have kiosks and shops in the tunnel ala a subway station?
Surely the government own all the buildings they use?

Jaysoose

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

How would constructing a tunnel from one building to another save money? Are there going to be offices based in the tunnel?
Prehaps it is another one of this governement's stimulus packages - they will have kiosks and shops in the tunnel ala a subway station?
Surely the government own all the buildings they use?

That the first issue we have, applying logic to the decisions being made by people aledgedly hapy to spend a million to keep their heads dry as they walk to a building a hundred yards away.

This has to be a non-runner it cant be true, because if it is true its very very scary.

Essexboy

How many of them could we get into the tunnel before sealing it at both ends?
Seriously, where are the figures to back up the claims that the tunnel will save money?

Macha

Hang on - it is already possible to walk from Agriculture House to Leinster House internally.

I think this is a non-story.

donkey balls

so they want to build a tunnel :rolleyes: dempsey might put a toll on it and the TD's can put the expense off against their expenses:eek:,or else they will get a contracter to build it to small(like the port tunnel&limerick ttunnel) that only small children could fir through it.
or maybe it could be for the likes of Ivor in case someone takes a pot shot at him;)

Head The Wall

sceptre wrote: »

On the point, here's a more recent article from the Tribune. I'm mentally searching for ways in which such a tunnel could itself possibly save €700,000 each year as the article suggests (I suspect that it's referring to the rent saved on additional property, which isn't inherently linked to the existence of such a tunnel, which really should have been explained in the article)

They're trying to deflect it onto wheelchair access needs as well, more justification so there comb overs won't get blown askew

Jaysoose wrote: »

That the first issue we have, applying logic to the decisions being made by people aledgedly hapy to spend a million to keep their heads dry as they walk to a building a hundred yards away.

This has to be a non-runner it cant be true, because if it is true its very very scary.

Welcome to Ireland

Gone West

I've worked in both buildings (was never a public sector worker though), Ag House was about 75% empty when I was there. LH is packed to the rafters with hangers on, consultants, contractors, etc. Also the multiple secretaries a hardworking handwringer / talker needs. Office space is at a bit of a premium, even in LH2000.

Best solution is to change the law, if indeed it does need to be changed, to allow civil "servants" to walk the hundred yards. The daily routine of walking to the canteen and back every hour for tea must get boring anyways.

Politicians generally dont like the front gates of Leinster House. Too many protestors and undesirables hang around there. They much prefer to drive in and out the back way. Would be terrible for some productive, useful senator to have to walk from his office to his separate secretary's office across the road.

Judgement Day

FG are really on the ball, here is what passes as a reply to my earlier email:


David

Thank you for your email.

It is not the job of Cllr Joe Arkins to annunciate policy on this issue.

Regards,



Vincent Gribbin
Head of Internal Communication
Fine Gael Headquarters
51 Uppr Mount St, Dublin 2
01-6198422

and my reply

Vincent,

Thank you for your reply but you fail to notice my main point i.e. the damage this sort of nonsense does to FG! Last week Olivia Mitchell was caught out saying that expenditure on flights in the Govt. jet was OK in the good times - it was never OK and plenty of us spoke out against waste even in the 'so called' good times. It's time you people in FG came up with some real policies instead of waiting to be presented with office at the next election. Don't take the electorate for granted or you may well find yourselves as the very junior partner in the next government.

No need to reply as my vote won't be going to FG.


Sincerely,

robbie1

i got the same reply as you did i sent them an email about 5 mins after i heard liveline
said pretty much the same as everyone and got the same reply

imme

:cool:Yeah The Herald has been known to set people raving alright.
According to this Herald article the work will cost 1Million Euro but save 700k per annum. http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/euro1m-leinster-house-tunnel-gets-goahead-2301609.html
Sounds like a good deal methinks.

Now, could people worry about some important things Please.:rolleyes:

irishh_bob

poppyvalley wrote: »

I did not hear anybody screaming.....as you put it. Your flippant remark leads me to believe that you are a fianna faller

now now , darcy could be forgiven , i mean when have you heard a caller on liveline who wasnt screaming

Sully

I think its a good thing, even if we disagree with them, if individual Councillors etc. are making their own opinion on something. Not every single thing has a party policy or line - so just because one or two FG/FF/Labour etc. members support it does not mean that the whole party does, or that its official party policy.

Its their own personal opinion and not that of the party at large - hence the reply you both got. You can hardly expect individuals to keep quiet on everything that the party has no official stance on.

Judgement Day

Sully wrote: »

I think its a good thing, even if we disagree with them, if individual Councillors etc. are making their own opinion on something. Not every single thing has a party policy or line - so just because one or two FG/FF/Labour etc. members support it does not mean that the whole party does, or that its official party policy.

Its their own personal opinion and not that of the party at large - hence the reply you both got. You can hardly expect individuals to keep quiet on everything that the party has no official stance on.

Yes, but according to an official FG response on the Joe Duffy show they don't have a policy on the tunnel - much as they don't appear to have a policy on anything else. As for imme - squandering €1 million on this tunnel is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the country - it isn't that long ago that Noel Dempsey dismissed the spending of €50 million on some other project as a drop in the ocean! It's no wonder the electorate keep putting these fools back into office when most of them appear to have such short memories. If the tunnel was to cost €10,000 then maybe, just maybe it would be justified but even then there are better uses for €10k.

imme

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, but according to an official FG response on the Joe Duffy show they don't have a policy on the tunnel - much as they don't appear to have a policy on anything else. As for imme - squandering €1 million on this tunnel is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the country - it isn't that long ago that Noel Dempsey dismissed the spending of €50 million on some other project as a drop in the ocean! It's no wonder the electorate keep putting these fools back into office when most of them appear to have such short memories. If the tunnel was to cost €10,000 then maybe, just maybe it would be justified but even then there are better uses for €10k.

Fine Gael have all sorts of policies, just like what you'd expect from a big political party. You'll find them on here:
http://www.finegael.org/polcol/a/25/article
Go on feast your eyes on that.

Now, please concern yourself with BIG issues, not a 1 Million tunnel that will save 700,00.00 a year. Or maybe you're concerned with micro issues, maybe we need more people like you in The Oireachtas. :eek:
We need BIG people concerned with BIG issues.
Now, could people get a grip, PLEASE.:rolleyes:

Sully

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, but according to an official FG response on the Joe Duffy show they don't have a policy on the tunnel - much as they don't appear to have a policy on anything else. As for imme - squandering €1 million on this tunnel is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the country - it isn't that long ago that Noel Dempsey dismissed the spending of €50 million on some other project as a drop in the ocean! It's no wonder the electorate keep putting these fools back into office when most of them appear to have such short memories. If the tunnel was to cost €10,000 then maybe, just maybe it would be justified but even then there are better uses for €10k.

It would be rather sad if FG released a party on every single thing which involved spending of public money, to be fair. Money spent on the Dail etc. should not really be part of FG policy unless it was considered a very big problem.

Policy making should focus on much larger things - public sector reform, budgeting, education (second and third level), getting jobs and people back working etc.

Plus, its an issue which neither party really has a big say on.

sceptre

imme wrote: »

a 1 Million tunnel that will save 700,00.00 a year

Remind me, how's it going to do that then?

Took me fifteen seconds to type this (ten seconds for this part) so even with, you know, the bigger issues going on, it's not much of a waste of my time. Besides, no-one's said how it'll save a bean so everyone's probably wondering.

imme

sceptre wrote: »

Remind me, how's it going to do that then?

Took me fifteen seconds to type this (ten seconds for this part) so even with, you know, the bigger issues going on, it's not much of a waste of my time. Besides, no-one's said how it'll save a bean so everyone's probably wondering.

Did you not read the newsapaper article I referenced in post #26 Sceptre old pal.:o
For all those interested here's a quote from the Evening Herald of 18/8/10:

"The tunnel will cost €1m over two years, but the cost will be covered within less than a year and a half.
The development will allow the Oireachtas to save €700,000 a year by giving up the leases on office space currently being rented in the area."

so there you go:P

Esel

When you're in a hole, .......

sceptre

imme wrote: »

Did you not read the newsapaper article I referenced in post #26 Sceptre old pal.:o
For all those interested here's a quote from the Evening Herald of 18/8/10:

"The tunnel will cost €1m over two years, but the cost will be covered within less than a year and a half.
The development will allow the Oireachtas to save €700,000 a year by giving up the leases on office space currently being rented in the area."

so there you go:P

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, office rental savings aren't contingent on the existence of the tunnel, referring to the gap in the statement which you've just brandished as an explanation to nowhere... See post 14 at your leisure, as well as posts 15 and 17 (amongst others) from other contributors.

So, again, how's the tunnel going to save 700k per annum? Plausible answers on a postcard... There's no shame in saying "I don't know", especially as I rather doubt that anyone else does either:)

imme

sceptre wrote: »

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, office rental savings aren't contingent on the existence of the tunnel, referring to the gap in the statement which you've just brandished as an explanation to nowhere... See post 14 at your leisure, as well as posts 15 and 17 (amongst others) from other contributors.

So, again, how's the tunnel going to save 700k per annum? Plausible answers on a postcard...

they give up the other office space and make savings of 700k then they utilise the "largely vacated" Agriculture House by building a tunnel.
Do you know the logistics of the area Sceptre, are you saying a tunnel isn't necessary?

charlemont

MrDarcy wrote: »

Defo not a FF man, on the next occasion the first FF person who comes to my door is going to be manhandled up my garden path and throw back out onto the street.

when the politicians came up here last year before local elections, they got some doing, fianna fail's tim brosnan would not come here after he heard about the abuse the other politicians got....

sceptre

imme wrote: »

they give up the other office space and make savings of 700k then they utilise the "largely vacated" Agriculture House by building a tunnel.
Do you know the logistics of the area Sceptre, are you saying a tunnel isn't necessary?

I don't know where the underground leccy cables are but I suspect that very few people who are familiar with central Dublin aren't aware of the logistics of the area (which is probably overstating it as a word - the building arrangement is that the department of Ag and Food building is the ugly-ass concrete and glass building (they call it brutalist architecture for a reason) slightly up the street from Leinster House. It's number 2, Kildare Street.). In the event that they start using the Dept of Ag building for office space, it's a choice between a short walk up the street or a proposed short walk in a tunnel.

And with that in mind, assuming it's not going to be a tunnel with a stargate, the travel distance is the same. There may be security conveniences in setting up the two areas as one enclosed system and a tunnel might facilitate that but they haven't been cited as advantages by the sources of either of the articles included in this thread. I don't have an issue with that to be honest (though a tunnel between the two buildings couldn't be called "necessary"), I'm just shaking my head at this suggestion that the tunnel saves money. As for the tunnel itself...

The proposed tunnel is separate to a move from rented space to the Dept of Ag building and comes with a capital cost and no savings by mere virtue of its existence. To whit, there aren't necessary tunnels that currently exist between Leinster House and the rented office space presently being used.

So, there are two issues here. Neither earth-shattering, both far smaller then NAMA. One: is a tunnel desirable? Two: what's with the statement that it'll save money? Given that the move to Ag House from the rented office locations can take place with or without a tunnel, as someone said unless they're going to toll it, if the existence or use of the tunnel is going to save 700k a year, I'd love to know how. Even if it was a stargate or one of those nifty transporters from The Fly, such a tunnel wouldn't be saving 700k.

So current situation:
Rented office space with a few or a lot of streets to walk to get to Leinster House.

Proposed future situation:
Single owned office space up the street a bit from Leinster House. It's been proposed that they include a tunnel between the existing buildings as well and apparently the tunnel will save 700k a year (but no-one to know how) so presumably we'd be fools not to spend a paltry million on it...

I'm not too sure I can separate the supposed savings of the tunnel from the actual non-savings and capital cost of a tunnel any more basically than the above (to be honest I've overlaboured it as I don't want to go through it again) but if anyone needs me to do so I guess I could at least try to. I'm not currently in Dublin, nor will I be there soonish so if anyone wants to take two photos and time their walk from Leinster House to the department of Agriculture building (or count steps, it might be more fun), it might help people visualise how close the two buildings are.

imme

Ok, the tunnel per se won't save money, BUT the building of it will facilitate the saving of 700k a year. We agreed.:)

sceptre

imme wrote: »

Ok, the tunnel per se won't save money, BUT the building of it will facilitate the saving of 700k a year. We agreed.:)

That's nowhere near what I said. The move to Ag House saves money. That should be done anyway. The tunnel is an add-on to the move to Ag House. The tunnel costs a million quid and doesn't save a bean. That's two things, both distinct and separate. My post is annoyingly clear on that. It'd be easier to agree on something if you actually went and read what I typed. It'd be easier to see where the lack of agreement is at any rate:) Not much I can do for you beyond that suggestion, with due respect, I'm willing to bet that everyone else gets it. Specific relevant/useful clarification questions (if any) might be useful.

imme

sceptre wrote: »

Not much I can do for you beyond that suggestion, with due respect, QUOTE]

oh, what munificence! :rolleyes:
yeah whatever:rolleyes:

the building of the tunnel will facilitate the saving of 700k, simple as.

imme

imme wrote: »

the building of the tunnel will facilitate the saving of 700k, simple as.

NO, it will not. It is unnecessary. They can move into the dept of agri now. Without a tunnel being built

In fact you could argue, using your logic, if they don't build the tunnel, and move into the dept of agri offices now, they are saving €1,000,000! All for walking across the street!

femur61

poppyvalley wrote: »

I did not hear anybody screaming.....as you put it. Your flippant remark leads me to believe that you are a fianna faller

I was screaming at the radio.

Judgement Day

imme wrote: »

Fine Gael have all sorts of policies, just like what you'd expect from a big political party. You'll find them on here:
http://www.finegael.org/polcol/a/25/article
Go on feast your eyes on that.

Now, please concern yourself with BIG issues, not a 1 Million tunnel that will save 700,00.00 a year. Or maybe you're concerned with micro issues, maybe we need more people like you in The Oireachtas. :eek:
We need BIG people concerned with BIG issues.
Now, could people get a grip, PLEASE.:rolleyes:

Have you never heard of the saying 'Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves', that is what's wrong with the country too many spendthrift politicians in charge of wasting our money and now our children's inheritances too.

As for the policies - don't make me laugh - I have FG's Transport Policy document from before the last election and it was absolute tripe. I don't know what your speciality is but rail transport is mine and I find that politicians, regardless of party, have little grasp of the subject. I doubt that this lack understanding is restricted to rail transport and suspect that in many other areas our politicians are equally clueless, hence our current predicament.

Judgement Day

esel wrote: »

When you're in a hole, .......

or a tunnel!

monkeypants

Papa Smut wrote: »

It is unnecessary. They can move into the dept of agri now. Without a tunnel being built

That's what I was thinking. If they can work in this rented office space without a tunnel, they can work in the Agri building without a tunnel. Immediate savings of €1m plus €700k each year. Result!

As for FF and FG; FG have sabotaged themselves before come election time. When the day at the ballot box comes round, I often struggle to vote for any of them, all parties considered.

Riskymove

imme wrote: »

Now, please concern yourself with BIG issues, not a 1 Million tunnel that will save 700,00.00 a year. Or maybe you're concerned with micro issues, maybe we need more people like you in The Oireachtas. :eek:
We need BIG people concerned with BIG issues.
Now, could people get a grip, PLEASE.:rolleyes:

as already pointed out, the tunnel will not save any money

a quick look at the area on google maps shows clearly that all that is needed (if its not already there) is a back door in Ag House to avoid having to walk down the street and the main gates to the Oireachtas.

Mr.Applepie

Spin: "If we build this tunnel for 1million we can save 700,000 a year"

Reality: "We have been wasting 700,000 a year leasing offices when we have empty space next door. What we propose is to waste another 1million to build a tunnel (with a bondesqe rail system prehaps??) in order to note waste 700,000 a year

Riskymove

Reality: "We have been wasting 700,000 a year leasing offices when we have empty space next door. What we propose is to waste another 1million to build a tunnel (with a bondesqe rail system prehaps??) in order to note waste 700,000 a year

no....reality is even worse than that

they have already decided to not waste €700,000 anymore...the tunnel has nothing to do with that!

it is simply a €1m (reminder: estimate of €1m and we all know how that goes) further expenditure that will not save any money

Nijmegen

They're saving the €700,000 a year anyway, because they are moving out of the rented offices anyway and into the DepAg building.

Now, in good political twisting, they say that "We are saving €700,000 so we ought to spend that money to build ourselves a nice tunnel."

The tunnel does not save €700,000 a year. Instead, they would waste over 1 year of their savings to build the tunnel.

Given the interest we're paying on money we borrow these days, I'd rather pocket the €700,000 and save the money.

But government spending adheres to the "Builders Rule" - if you don't spend it, it you won't be seeing it again.

That's why so many public sector organisations rush in to spend all their leftovers on silly stuff at the end of the year. It's a bonanza time for stationary companies, for one.

I remember hearing a tale of a finance manager in a quango last year who sent out a memo giving out to section managers for being behind on spending.

And for those saying this is small fry - look after the pennies. It's the underlying attitude that gets my goat.

dean21

Nijmegen wrote: »

They're saving the €700,000 a year anyway, because they are moving out of the rented offices anyway and into the DepAg building.

Now, in good political twisting, they say that "We are saving €700,000 so we ought to spend that money to build ourselves a nice tunnel."

The tunnel does not save €700,000 a year. Instead, they would waste over 1 year of their savings to build the tunnel.

Given the interest we're paying on money we borrow these days, I'd rather pocket the €700,000 and save the money.

But government spending adheres to the "Builders Rule" - if you don't spend it, it you won't be seeing it again.

That's why so many public sector organisations rush in to spend all their leftovers on silly stuff at the end of the year. It's a bonanza time for stationary companies, for one.

I remember hearing a tale of a finance manager in a quango last year who sent out a memo giving out to section managers for being behind on spending.

And for those saying this is small fry - look after the pennies. It's the underlying attitude that gets my goat.

they dont give a ****
A guy had to chain himself to the front of a ESB office in dublin yesterday to try and stop them cutting off his ESB and these S**M bags of TD'S and i mean all TD'S are on about doing this
This county is a joke