liveline, the tips Clerk and licensing applications

Bosco boy

For penance I listened to Joe Duffy yesterday and some resturant owner came on the show and stated that he applied to the courts for a beer licence (I know its not the correct terminology) and just before the court started he was asked by his barrister for €100 in cash for the tips clerk (Judges Clerk) and when he queried this he was told that this was normal practice, he alleged he ended up paying it as he was advised strongly to do so, the courts service made a statement to the show that no such payments are authorised. I was just wondering is this Joe just stirrring up the crap or could it be practice?

Tom Young

Bosco boy wrote: »

For penance I listened to Joe Duffy yesterday and some resturant owner came on the show and stated that he applied to the courts for a beer licence (I know its not the correct terminology) and just before the court started he was asked by his barrister for €100 in cash for the tips clerk (Judges Clerk) and when he queried this he was told that this was normal practice, he alleged he ended up paying it as he was advised strongly to do so, the courts service made a statement to the show that no such payments are authorised. I was just wondering is this Joe just stirrring up the crap or could it be practice?

Certainly not practice and indeed should it be true this would have very serious consequences for the Judge/court in question.

dats_right

I remember walking through the corridors of the Four Courts with an eminent senior counsel and a "senior" junior counsel, when the sc went over to a High Court Tip Staff and discreetly handed over €100 to him. The sc said that there was a tradition of sc's giving the high court tip staff a few quid when sitting on circuit outside Dublin. Both I and the barrister of over 20 years call had never heard of this practice prior to this . It should be noted that this is a little perk for the travelling tip staff who drew the short straw of having to travel out of Dublin. It is nothing more than an old tradition and small perk for the travelling tip staff. It is certainly not the client who should have to pay this but rather the sc himself. Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon and allege all sorts of things, it should be pointed out that the payment is a small gratitude for the tip staff and does not in any way have anything to do with the judge.

Bosco boy

Very honest reply, but I'm sure the judges clerk drew the long straw by getting the gig out of town as the overnights and travel expenses would kick in, I think it's a very dangerous practice and leaves the courts service and judicary wide open to allegations of corruption, it has revenue issues at the very least! If people as high as senior counsel feel the need to do it then logic would follow others lower down would be under even more pressure!

Jo King

It has long been rumoured that in applications for new licences, the crier had to get a tip. The reason was that the judge would be relying on the local knowledge of the crier as to the character of the applicant/ premises. Outside Dublin the tipstaff of the High Court judge is a crucial conduit in ensuring the smooth running of court business. Favours are always being asked.

MagicSean

Seems to me that the legal profession needs some proper monitoring and policing similar to the Garda Ombudsman. These kind of under the table practices will only lead to trouble in the future and really undermine the whole system.

maidhc

k_mac wrote: »

Seems to me that the legal profession needs some proper monitoring and policing similar to the Garda Ombudsman. These kind of under the table practices will only lead to trouble in the future and really undermine the whole system.

Do waiters declare their tips, which I suspect would be substantial in the more expensive establishments? Do doctors declare every €50 note they get? I don't think Clerks would be considered part of the legal profession in any event.

Bosco boy

maidhc wrote: »

Do waiters declare their tips, which I suspect would be substantial in the more expensive establishments? Do doctors declare every €50 note they get? I don't think Clerks would be considered part of the legal profession in any event.

Your missing the point, the waiter is tipped for a service, is the clerk being tipped for a service and if so what is that service? is it to ensure that the correct decision is arrived at by the judge? if that is the case then that is plain corruption, I would consider the clerk part of the overall courts service / legal profession, in any event who passed him the cash as a previous poster and the liveline caller said it was a member of the legal profession. I'm not trying to bash anyone but its the good people in any job who get painted with the same brush when these practices are exposed, if the courts in this country are underminded then the state is undermined. We have more than enough corruption in this country already and if we get to a stage where we get some of these people to court will a cash tip to a clerk decide their case, I sincerely hope not!!

maidhc

Bosco boy wrote: »

Your missing the point, the waiter is tipped for a service, is the clerk being tipped for a service and if so what is that service? is it to ensure that the correct decision is arrived at by the judge? if that is the case then that is plain corruption, I would consider the clerk part of the overall courts service / legal profession, in any event who passed him the cash as a previous poster and the liveline caller said it was a member of the legal profession. I'm not trying to bash anyone but its the good people in any job who get painted with the same brush when these practices are exposed, if the courts in this country are underminded then the state is undermined. We have more than enough corruption in this country already and if we get to a stage where we get some of these people to court will a cash tip to a clerk decide their case, I sincerely hope not!!

I think we are talking about tradition rather than any corruption. Maybe it is a tradition best left behind, and I have no view on that.

Court Clerks do a very valuable job and provide an excellent service, moreso than most waiters. Whether it is giving a solicitor/barriser a heads up on a judges practice or plain being helpful and getting things through the system.

okioffice84

This was common practice in some western district courts and probably still is. On applying for a special exemption order an applicant had to tip the 'judges driver' £100. If its still going on, and I have no reason to believe it has stopped, it needs to be aired publicly, and I'm not talking about Joe Duffy

Delancey

Bollox to tradition - giving ' tips ' only serves to undermine confidence in the courts system - not only must the courts /judges be impartial , they must be seen to be impartial and this practise of tipping raises all sorts of doubts.
I'm shocked it is tolerated.

nuac

Okioffice84

I have been around western district courts for many years. Special exemptions ( i.e. increase of licensing hours for a special occasion ) are dealt with in the District Court. No tips or gratuities were involved to judges' drivers or to anyone else. In fact District Court Judges usually drive themselves to court and are not supplied with drivers. There is a substantial stamp duty paid to the state on each application which may be the reason for the confusion here. That stamp duty is paid into the local district court office when filing each application is receipted on the application by means of an impressed stamp and forwarded to the relevant Department.

okioffice84

Hi nuac, this was about 15 years ago. There was absolutely no confusion between the stamp duty and this 'tip'

nuac

Okioffice84

I have been in District Courts in the west for 40+ years. No such practice of tipping on special exemptions. Also as already stated no judges' drivers in District Court.

NUTLEY BOY

Would these traditions not fall foul of the ETHICS IN PUBLIC OFFICE ACT 1995 and the shedload of S.I.s that followed it.

Traditions like tipping the postman, the binmen and all that jazz seem to fall foul of it too as far as I know.

Curunina

I work on a Circuit outside of Dublin where it is practically mandatory to pay the Tipstaff of a Circuit Court Judge when you are appearing in a licensing matter; if you don't, you may get pushed to the bottom of the list. There are tons of these little corrupt practices in the various Circuits - for example it is mandatory to give the Tipstaffs some kind of gratuity at Christmas - €20 from Counsel under five years practice (all of whom would be earning vastly less than the Tipstaffs themselves), €100 from other Junior Counsel, and €200 from Seniors - and if you don't, there are good odds that your cases will get bumped down the lists. Barristers who practice only/mainly in Dublin wouldn't necessarily be familiar with these practices. I have to say I agree with the posters who think that this is a bit dodgy.
The flipside of it is that it has nothing to do with judges themselves; if your papers are in order you get your license, and vice versa - no matter whether you comply with tradition or not. The consequence of refusing is inconvenience rather than anything more serious.

Delancey

Curunina wrote: »

I work on a Circuit outside of Dublin where it is practically mandatory to pay the Tipstaff of a Circuit Court Judge when you are appearing in a licensing matter; if you don't, you may get pushed to the bottom of the list. There are tons of these little corrupt practices in the various Circuits - for example it is mandatory to give the Tipstaffs some kind of gratuity at Christmas - €20 from Counsel under five years practice (all of whom would be earning vastly less than the Tipstaffs themselves), €100 from other Junior Counsel, and €200 from Seniors - and if you don't, there are good odds that your cases will get bumped down the lists. Barristers who practice only/mainly in Dublin wouldn't necessarily be familiar with these practices. I have to say I agree with the posters who think that this is a bit dodgy.
The flipside of it is that it has nothing to do with judges themselves; if your papers are in order you get your license, and vice versa - no matter whether you comply with tradition or not. The consequence of refusing is inconvenience rather than anything more serious.

It is some comfort that this grubby little ' tradition ' is far removed from Judges. I am guessing that the title ' tipstaff ' probably originates with days gone by when the tipstaff probably earned his living from such tips ?

It really is ridiculous in this day and age and as you rightly point out the tipstaff would be earning far more than a Junior Counsel. As I said earlier '' Bollox to tradition '' - the Courts Service should move against this low-level cash for favours.

Reilly616

delancey42 wrote: »

It is some comfort that this grubby little ' tradition ' is far removed from Judges. I am guessing that the title ' tipstaff ' probably originates with days gone by when the tipstaff probably earned his living from such tips ?

It really is ridiculous in this day and age and as you rightly point out the tipstaff would be earning far more than a Junior Counsel. As I said earlier '' Bollox to tradition '' - the Courts Service should move against this low-level cash for favours.

I believe it actually comes from "tipped staff".

Victor

Curunina wrote: »

I work on a Circuit outside of Dublin where it is practically mandatory to pay the Tipstaff of a Circuit Court Judge when you are appearing in a licensing matter; if you don't, you may get pushed to the bottom of the list. There are tons of these little corrupt practices in the various Circuits - for example it is mandatory to give the Tipstaffs some kind of gratuity at Christmas - €20 from Counsel under five years practice (all of whom would be earning vastly less than the Tipstaffs themselves), €100 from other Junior Counsel, and €200 from Seniors - and if you don't, there are good odds that your cases will get bumped down the lists. Barristers who practice only/mainly in Dublin wouldn't necessarily be familiar with these practices. I have to say I agree with the posters who think that this is a bit dodgy.

Ultimately, the court is being bought and sold and you think its only a bit dodgy?

So, what happens if you are pushed to the bottom of the list and oh, look, the judge has to rush off to some urgent matter and you don't get your special exemptions for the Christmas period as the next licencing court won't be for a while?

Not that I imagine this is the greatest bit of corruption in the system.

Curunina

Victor, I was using the term "a bit dodgy" euphemistically... I think it's quite clear from the tone of my post that I think the practice is corrupt.
I also assume that you are being hyperbolic when you say that the Courts are being "bought and sold" - it does no good to a rational discussion to get hysterical.
It would not happen that someone would miss out on special exemptions for the Christmas period because he was bumped down the list - his counsel would make the Judge aware that an application is time sensitive, and it would be heard on the day - possibly last on the day - but it would still be heard.
It is a problem, it is corrupt, and it should be stopped - there is no need to overstate it to convince people to reach that conclusion, it just damages the credibility of your argument.

And "Tipstaff" comes from the fact that in the Four Courts, when a judge is walking around while robed, his Tipstaff will walk in front of him, holding a staff - which he may or may not tip against the floor - in order to clear a path for the Judge to get to court

Reilly616

Curunina wrote: »

And "Tipstaff" comes from the fact that in the Four Courts, when a judge is walking around while robed, his Tipstaff will walk in front of him, holding a staff - which he may or may not tip against the floor - in order to clear a path for the Judge to get to court

tipstaff 1540s, "tipped staff" (truncheon with a tip or cap of metal) carried as an emblem of office, from tip (n.) + staff. As the name of an official who carries one (esp. a sheriff's officer, bailiff, constable, court crier, etc.) it is recorded from 1560s.

Bosco boy

The 2010 version seems to be a taking a different meaning of the same word "tip staff". I read the posts with interest and considering the amount of barristers and solicitors on the courts scene and the level of transactions that occurred especially during the tiger years I think we could be talking a considerable sum of money when it's all added up! It hard to see how these payments don't result in some favour.