worth paying extra for ESP?

lampsie

Looking at buying a new 1.5l diesel Renault Clio, and ESP is a €450-ish optional extra. If I remember right, ESP will be standard on all new cars from 2012 so might be useful in terms of resale, apart from the obvious safety benefits. Do you think its worth it?

af_thefragile

Oh ESP is a lifesaver.
Trust me. Especially on wet roads.

I was once driving on a a wet road, had to made a sudden sharp turn and the back let go, I had the spin of a lifetime. Luckily there was no one on the road and nothing bad happen. But if my car has ESP, it wouldn't have spin out like that in the first place. So I'll say its worth it.

Mr Benevolent

It's definitely worth having. Extra Sensory Perception is invaluable in everyday life, not just driving!

af_thefragile

I'ld say it'ld take a good bit to spin a car with the ESP on.
FWD are easy to get into a spin on wet roads. If you're driving a little bit too fast and then have to suddenly make a sharp turn, you're going to understeer and to avoid that you'll instinctively lift off the accelerator and the back will let go. With ESP it breaks the wheels on the opposite end to stop the back from letting go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kte7zSK-fg4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIuPS9cTlL8

ArphaRima

You wont get any of the value back if that's what you mean. As a technology it is a smart bit of kit though..

I wouldnt pay 450 for it, but I would still live in dread that if I had an accident that couldve somehow been averted if I just had that one extra feature... Basically the same feeling that every single safety device that has ever been invented has sold upon.

On a performance rear wheel drive, yes. On a 1.5L diesel. Your call.

af_thefragile

^I spun in my FWD 1.4l Petrol Puma... All you need is a very wet road which isn't uncommon here.

Like before I used to say you don't really need any safety features and all that, they just add extra cost and such. But after the spin, which I know wouldn't have had happened if my car has ESP, I'ld definitely say its something worth having. Like I was very lucky it was an empty road. If someone was coming from the other side, it would have been very ugly...

ArphaRima

Every car can spin.
If you want to be calculated then look at the cost/benefit and then look at the cost/risk ratio. Only he can decide.

Personally I would pay a max of 100 quid.

For example the 450 quid would be far better spent over the cars life on changing his tyres that bit earlier and for a better brand in my opinion..

Anan1

There can also be fairly big differences between one ESP system and another. My mother's E90 kept the car straight even when I accelerated onto a diesel spill, whereas the system in my Forester is far less keen to get involved.

johnos1984

OP its the kind of thing you won't miss until you need it.

Personally I would insist on it as you never know when some feckless twat will come out from a side road and cause you to swear aggressively. Would you buy a car now without ABS? 10 years ago people faced the same question

Lets put it like this, €450 for ESP, €16000 for the car (roughly) or €? for you and your passengers safety

To me it seems that in the grand scheme of things €450 isn't a lot to pay

kasper

if i was buying new i would get it but i only by used and esp would make me buy that car used rather than a car that didnt have it . best of luck with the new car and safe driving

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You cant compare ABS to ESP in all fairness they are two completely different systems. You can throw a car around without ESP and not have it fire you into a ditch btw.

The issue is you will end up in a ditch if you aren't experienced in skid control and are forced to try and control the car if you have to swerve.

So for the average driver, yes I think there is a good comparison to be made. Yes they are different systems but they both help you control and stop a car in an emergency situation

The comparison was meant as a way of seeing how safety equipment such as ABS wasn't fitted as standard 10 years ago, had relatively small take up and in a short space of time, now people wouldn't even consider a car without it.

It shall be the same with ESP in a couple of years

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You can do emergency moves in a car without the need for ESP the same cant be said for ABS.

Its called pumping the brakes

Lightening your argument against getting ESP is ridiculous.

How do you know that the OP is going to have to make an emergency stop or swerve to avoid someone????

Its an fecking easy assumption for anyone who drives on Irish roads. Its going to happen sooner or later.

The idea with ESP is that anyone can make the initial avoidance of a hazard but controlling the car there after will catch out a large proportion of others.

I'm not making an assumption the car will spin if you swerve, it may not but the fright it can give a driver can cause them to over correct the skid and crash anyway.

af_thefragile

Anan1 wrote: »

There can also be fairly big differences between one ESP system and another. My mother's E90 kept the car straight even when I accelerated onto a diesel spill, whereas the system in my Forester is far less keen to get involved.

All ESP (and other electronic systems like ABS, Traction control) are built but only a few manufacturers like Bosch and most cars use the same system bought from the same manufacturer. Bosch is the best at it and Renault along with most other cars everything from Nissan to BMW and even Ferrari use Bosch systems. So they're all basically the same system with little differences set up according to the car. But as its a Bosch system developed through years of RnD, you should be safe in knowing it won't let you down.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You are making a assumption that you if you have to make a big avoiding action that a car is going to spin which it wont. Whereas if you stamp on a brake pedal as hard as you can in the wet in a car without ABS it will most likely cause the wheels to lock up. You can do emergency moves in a car without the need for ESP the same cant be said for ABS.

You cannot apply brakes to individual tyres on a car either. Thats what ESP does to stop you from spinning out of control.

As the saying goes you can get it right a million times but get it wrong only once.
It only takes that one time when you end up in a slide and you're just a passenger heading into a wall or worse into oncoming traffic.

And I'll say its safe to assume 90% of drivers don't know how to control a car when it lets go, they'll simply slide with it.

challengemaster

I'd be fairly inclined to believe what LIGHTNING says, considering what he works at, I think he definitely knows more about these things than most.

johnos1984

challengemaster wrote: »

I'd be fairly inclined to believe what LIGHTNING says, considering what he works at, I think he definitely knows more about these things than most.

Sorry I'll put my dunce cap back on.

OP DON'T GET ESP just avoid any unexpected situations where you have to swerve such as on wet country roads or at high speed on a motorway

That'll be easy.

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I am not against ESP in fact I am in favour of the EU having it as standard. But people are assuming that it will defo stop you from spinning which it wont.

In my opinion its a expensive upgrade that unless its a sportscar or SUV I dont think it warrants the extra money. When the EU forces car manufacturers to put it as standard the cost will be spread out and we wont have cars manufacturers charging 500-800e for it.

I agree it should be free but for the €450 I think its cheap given that it could stop the car from spinning and getting damaged or worse.

Its not going to increase re-sale value but as its a small car it may encourage a young driver who buys it in a few years to buy it and therefore make it easier to sell.

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Just because you have ESP it can still happen, a friend of mine wrote of his M3 despite having every driver aid available to him. He hit a big puddle on the motorway and that was the end of that M3.

Isn't that a grip issue and not a car swerving??

I believe its called aqua planing (I'm a bit thick you see) and no electronic aid will help you there.

ESP isn't meant for that kind of a situation but a good set of tyres is

af_thefragile

I think a 400eur extra on a 16k car is not too bad.

And i'ld say Its more likely to save a small car from a spin than a sports car or a SUV.
Problem with SUV is they roll over and you need some very fancy technology to stop them rolling over. Problem with sports car is that firstly they have lots more grip while driving normally than a normal car so when they do let go you're traveling that much faster and it becomes much harder to control the slide.

Small cars don't let go often and when they do a skilled driver could probably control it but most drivers won't be able to and will simply slide into wherever the car takes them. Like I had a pretty awesome slide in my little 1.4l Puma. All you need to do is travel at around 70kmph on a rainy day and turn into a corner a little too fast. The moment you lift off the throttle (which most drivers instinctively would and you'ld pretty much have to or else you'll understeer into the opposite side of the road) you'll encounter liftoff oversteer, the back end will slide out and you're in for a ride.

ESP will easily prevent that from happening by apply brakes to individual wheels and counteracting the forces of the oversteer keeping your car pointing in the right direction. Which is why I say its something all cars should be fitted with. If you wanna play you can simply turn the ESP off but not having it fitted in your car when you have an option to is a bit of a risk. And I believe you really won't appreciate its value till you have a close call and realise how valuable the system is in saving lives or at the very least expensive damages.

Here's another video showing how well the ESP system works. If it can stop Tiff from sliding while doing 70mph on ice then it should easily be able to stop you from sliding while doing 70kmph on a wet road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSy5tHtT1g

Skip to 2:40

VeVeX

You don't have to be doing high speeds for esp to be of benefit. I had one moment in my car when I skidded suddenly on ice doing around 10mph on a bend and started heading towards a foot path. The esp applied brake force to the rear left wheel to correct the slide and leave the car pointing in the direction I had the steering wheel. This all happened in the space of a split second and alot quicker then I would of reacted as it was unexpected.

I wouldnt have caused much damage as I was going fairly slow but I would have scraped a wheel and maybe bent something.

You never know whats around the bend when in your car.You can drive like a saint but theres little you can do about the other guy driving his car. ESP can react far quicker to certain situations then even the most skilled drivers. I'd say the 450 for esp is money well spent if it could potentially prevent you from having an accident be it minor or major.

johnos1984

VeVeX wrote: »

I wouldnt have caused much damage as I was going fairly slow but I would have scraped a wheel and maybe bent something.

Work it out like this.

A new wing and respray plus a new alloy wheel and maybe a suspension parts will be more than €450!

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think its worth the money some of the manufactures are charging for it.

Getting back to the OP's opening question do you think then it is worth €450 from Renault?? Given that some manufacturers charge hundreds more for it

ArphaRima

Is there physical hardware to be installed or is it a case of activating existing electronics?
I presume for a safety device it must be installed, but I'm just thinking about features like cruise control which are built in to most cars as standard, but only activated in many once youve purchased it for insane money. My last car only needed a VAG reprogram and a new stalk to get fully functioning cruise control for a small fraction of OEM option costs.

If it was the same for this feature it would be interesting.

I obviously dont think its worth the cash for the OP, but its a very personal choice.

I am 100% certain that the option wouldnt even be considered in residual values.

johnos1984

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I wouldnt personally but its not a bad price for it. Each to their own as they say!

Fair enough.

I would but it isn't my money however if you can afford the car why not.

You may never need it, indeed you may never even know if it is working but you will regret not getting it if you have an issue.

johnos1984

fluffer wrote: »

Is there physical hardware to be installed or is it a case of activating existing electronics?

I believe hardware needs to be fitted

fluffer wrote: »

I presume for a safety device it must be installed, but I'm just thinking about features like cruise control which are built in to most cars as standard, but only activated in many once youve purchased it for insane money. My last car only needed a VAG reprogram and a new stalk to get fully functioning cruise control for a small fraction of OEM option costs.

I never knew about the cruise control until a few minutes ago from another thread

fluffer wrote: »

I obviously dont think its worth the cash for the OP, but its a very personal choice.

I agree about it being an issue for the OP

fluffer wrote: »

I am 100% certain that the option wouldnt even be considered in residual values.

Agreed but it could make it easier to sell as I said earlier to a learner driver or young person (their parents would like the safety aspect)

af_thefragile

I think its something that needs to be installed into the car.
The ESP system consists of a lot of G sensors and steering angle sensors and a processing unit to apply the right amount of brakes on the right wheels. Its a same system that goes in most cars as most car manufacturers get it from the same manufacturer (ESP belongs to Bosch, other manufacturers use different names VSC, DSC etc.) so its one system that needs to be set up to the individual car.

I think right now most buyers would not consider it during resale. But just like ABS became a must have option in most cars, in a few years time ESP would become the same. Might take 5-10 years but it eventually will. It is very underrated imo.

Vertakill

I probably wouldn't pay €450 as an extra to have it in my car. Although, it comes as standard in mine thankfuly.

If it were an optional extra on something with 200+ bhp, I'd probably cough up for it however.

I wonder are Renault going to do what they did with their ridiculous logos on the back of cars when they had ABS first in their Laguna's etc?

Looking forward to the ESP decal on the back windscreen, down the side of the car and a small badge on the boot lid!

Matt Simis

VeVeX wrote: »

You don't have to be doing high speeds for esp to be of benefit. I had one moment in my car when I skidded suddenly on ice doing around 10mph on a bend and started heading towards a foot path. The esp applied brake force to the rear left wheel to correct the slide and leave the car pointing in the direction I had the steering wheel. This all happened in the space of a split second and alot quicker then I would of reacted as it was unexpected.

I did the opposite of the above.

Crawling along at 10mph on last winters sheet ice on a lonely night on a country road and what popped into my mind was the "you dont need ESP bashing" from Internet Experts. So I thought, enough forum debating, lets put that to the test. Holding the wheel steady and the accel. pedal "as is" I cautiously disabled ASC. I then, with baited breath, very very slightly increased pressure on the accelerator pedal.
The result? An immediate 180degree half spin into the frozen embankment, followed by a bounce back to the other side then another back over to the original side. At about 11mph (which seems fast when you have no control at all in an ice spin). Fighting G Forces I regained control by... enabling ASC again at which point it promptly straightened up.
Note I wasnt braking or accelerating at this point but hoping to steer out without making it worse.

Estimated BHP put down to induce a spin? Probably 5bhp? Speed? 10mph'ish.
You dont need a supercar to benefit from ESP, you just need shit roads and crap weather.

I would personally look for a better equipped as standard car. Such an important safety feature as an option in 2010? Insane.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

I would personally look for a better equipped as standard car. Such an important safety feature as an option in 2010? Insane.

Specification is set to suit the local market, and most Irish buyers consider alloys & fogs to be a lot more important than ESP.

sundodger5

OK lets do raw maths 450 quid op keeps car for 3 years, all that extra safety for just under 3 euro a week.
value all day.

mickdw

There are advantages of esp in that it can sperate braking from wheel to wheel which no driver can do however from experience many of the systems are poor & any reasonable driver can react better than what it is capable of under acceleration at least.

jimmycrackcorm

Is spending money on ESP worth it?
Is spending money in airbags worth it? Definitely if you are planning in having a crash

jimmycrackcorm

af_thefragile wrote: »

Oh ESP is a lifesaver.
Trust me. Especially on wet roads.

I was once driving on a a wet road, had to made a sudden sharp turn and the back let go, I had the spin of a lifetime. Luckily there was no one on the road and nothing bad happen. But if my car has ESP, it wouldn't have spin out like that in the first place. So I'll say its worth it.

And yet you lived without any ESP.

How mysteriously lifesaving....

Matt Simis

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And yet you lived without any ESP.

How mysteriously lifesaving....

Lol, how illogical.
A Kevlar vest is lifesaving if you are in a position to be shot. ESP could be lifesaving if you are in a position to be in a spin (ie driving a car, bad road or oil spill or weather).

You can survive being shot without a Vest and an uncontrolled spin without ESP, but if its on offer, why wouldnt you take it?

nogoodnamesleft

Have ESP on my car as standard (its 2003) most of the time wouldnt know it there but it has saved my ass literally once in the bad weather last year.

Was on a wide streach of road which had recently been gritted (county bounds between Cork and Kerry). Artic ahead of me was going up an incline in the climing lane. Due to the Governments f**k up regards not having enough grit to cope with the weather they had to start mixing sand with the grit. This mixture left me literally blind behind the trailer of the artic as the sandy gritty spray ended up on my windscreen at night. I moved out to the over taking lane and proceeded to overtake.

Approx level with the artic trailer car started to let go a number of times with the ESP goin nuts (it indicates when its working by a light in the dash) you can feel the car kind of kick as the ESPs computer brakes the appropriate wheel to keep you where you want to go. The county council in der infinite wisdom had only gritted one lane the overtaking lane was a sheet of ice.

Im certain without it I would either be in the ditch or I would have hit the trailer. Wouldnt be without it in any future car i own.

lampsie

Thanks to everyone for all the comments in here and for helping me reach a decision - general consensus seems to be that ESP is a Good Thing and indeed if anything, something that more people should be aware of Given that I'm hoping to keep the car for at least 5 years, €450 in the grand scheme of it seems worth it.

Cheers,
lamps

djimi

Im not particularly bothered that my car doesnt have it, but for the sake of €450 I dont see any reason not to have it. Id sooner spend the money on a safety feature like that rather than something useless like a GPS system.

af_thefragile

^Exactly. People spend much money on useless features such as GPS, Alloys, fancy stereo and such which do nothing to make your car any safer but don't bother about things like ESP which should be fitted to every car.

The car is pretty much a weapon of mass destruction you're carrying around with you and you should use it very responsibly. It only takes one wrong move and you can very easily do a lot of damage with it which could even possibly take lives. People seem to forget this when driving their car the risks involved with driving.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And yet you lived without any ESP.

How mysteriously lifesaving....

I was extremely lucky it was an empty road and there was no one coming from the other side.

Yes, you could probably avoid getting your car in a spin in the first place by being extra careful in wet conditions. Slowing down before corners and gently accelerating through them instead of throwing your car into corners, not making any abrupt turns.

But then you can do all that and it only takes one tosser in front of you to brake suddenly and you have to quickly make an evasive maneuver which if its a wet surface could very easily throw you into a spin. Once you're in a spin, if you don't have ESP, you're just a passenger. There's not much you can do to stop yourself from sliding into the path of other cars.

ESP is not something you'ld use everyday. Its for that one occasion when you lose control. It could happen at 120kmph on a motorway on a rainy day or it could happen at 60kmph on a twisty country road or it could happen at 20kmph in your neighborhood on a snowy/icy day.

It only takes that one rare time which could leave you regretting for the rest of your life.

ArphaRima

The car is pretty much a weapon of mass destruction

I knew Iraq had WMD's!!

WMD: Nuclear, bacteriological, or other weapon capable of causing widespread death.

Jesus thats a bit of an exaggeration there calling cars WMD's. I think you meant to say they can be dangerous to you or others..

Sensible driving is all I ask for. Not hysteria.

Everything is a compromise. Everything. Every design, every decision. We always have to roll the dice. What I ask myself is what level of risk am I willing to accept?
That is the question for the OP.

af_thefragile

^But you could be a wildchild wanting to take risks. But at the same time you could be putting other people's life in danger...

All you need is a David Coulthard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e287pHZNUcs

Matt Simis

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Do you drive a BMW by any chance?

You know I do, stop trying to be clever! The fact I called it ASC is a bit of a give away too.

I also have an Alfa and it has no ESP and in the recent wet downpours after hot weather you can fill it start to slip out too.

Matt Simis

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I have driven quite a few RWD cars in snow and unless you are being silly they arent overly bad to drive.

Our e39 5 series was ok in the ice and snow but the 8 wasnt that good. Just about drivable. I only tested the 8 with ASC (ESP) off, I assume the 5 would be nearly as terrible though.

Minatauro

Hi there,

Just a caution on the esp. Its great as the others have said but look into the cost of having it fixed. I have an octavia vrs (06) and the abs pump failed, the G201 failure code. It knocked out the abs esp etc. The small sensor contained in the pump controls the esp and cost minimum of 1200 euro to replace as they have to take the pump out completely. It seems its a common problem on the VAG brand and they know about it but did not do anything about it until recently as I believe the new cars (09- ) are ok.

They did not offer any goodwill on the price or repair either so just a caution for you to check the model of car that you may go for and problems that may occur.

Matt Simis

Its true it can be an expensive fix, but usually you can go after market to get the original parts repaired/refurbed for a fraction of that dealer price.