questions

thermo

just doing some research for writing game synarios.

MagicIRL

I own neither. Being 18 ands jobless and going into 6th Year means I don't have much spare cash lying around to buy any extra toys this side of Christmas

swiftblade

MagicIRL wrote: »

I own neither. Being 18 ands jobless and going into 6th Year means I don't have much spare cash lying around to buy any extra toys this side of Christmas

In the same boat as you. I do have a job but usualy only 1 day at the weekend. And with school starting up again sadly that means less time for airsoft But i do have a pistol

NakedDex

I have both, but find night vision about as useful as a wife in Vegas. It's relegated to work use. I prefer a decent torch, or even tracer rounds.

thermo

NakedDex wrote: »

I have both, but find night vision about as useful as a wife in Vegas. It's relegated to work use. I prefer a decent torch, or even tracer rounds.

in a night game sinario i was going to mark certain things (targets/objectives) with IR snaplights.

Puding

Have both, but I would never recommend running a game that need items such as night vision, it narrows the pool of players and could create the wrong type of image. Night vision in my eyes is an add on and can be used as a tool but never should be commpulsary to complete an objective

Just my 2 cents

P.s also then gen1 I think people would have are next to useless for anything other than observation,

thermo

Puding wrote: »

Have both, but I would never recommend running a game that need items such as night vision, it narrows the pool of players and could create the wrong type of image. Night vision in my eyes is an add on and can be used as a tool but never should be commpulsary to complete an objective

Just my 2 cents

P.s also then gen1 I think people would have are next to useless for anything other than observation,

the lidl NVV work well in spotting IR cyalumes. on each side you would get away with one or two per side depending on numbers.


how does this idea for a game create the wrong type of image?

sliabh

thermo wrote: »

the lidl NVV work well in spotting IR cyalumes. on each side you would get away with one or two per side depending on numbers.

That is how I have always thought of them being used - only a few per side, and those with them would form special teams of infiltrators or spotters as part of a larger operation.

thermo

sliabh wrote: »

That is how I have always thought of them being used - only a few per side, and those with them would form special teams of infiltrators or spotters as part of a larger operation.

in the game i have in mind, i never invisaged everybody running around all with nvv,,,,,,,

Puding

thermo wrote: »

the lidl NVV work well in spotting IR cyalumes. on each side you would get away with one or two per side depending on numbers.


how does this idea for a game create the wrong type of image?

well it would be a elitist attitude to require such a specialist item to achieve an objective, yes i know that games do require players to have specific camo for example but this is a very generic items and are usually broad restrictions like tan and green to allow people option

in your first post and the fact you included a poll gave the impression of a game that would be open to all to use nvg and they would be need to complete the objective but it was up to that side to arrange, more than likely down to luck which could result in one team with one set or none at all and another team with 4 or 5

your last few posts give a slightly different impression with them being used more as a event supplied prop, pre arranged spotter teams organized by the event to create a level playing field

for me if its just down to the teams to arrange then to much is left to chance and makeup of the team, if there pre arrange as props ok fair enough as everyone is reading from the same script, as i said before its just my 2 cents and my personal view, i always go for the KISS principle and would say that any objective/game should be achievable with the bar minimum of equipment used to play airsoft e.g a person and a airsoft device ( aeg/gbb/springer), if anything else is needed i would say it would need to be organised by the event itself

evilrobotshane

Puding wrote: »

i always go for the KISS principle and would say that any objective/game should be achievable with the bar minimum of equipment used to play airsoft e.g a person and a airsoft device ( aeg/gbb/springer)

I disagree with this. I think it's great to mix it up and have a variety of types of objectives - at allows for much, much more interesting play. Off the top of my head, some objectives I've completed or witnessed in games required:

• duct tape
• wire cutters
• strobe lights
• glow sticks
• radio
• grenade launcher
• satchel charge
• notebook and pencil
• watch
• cable ties
• string
• fake money

and so on and so on. Some of these (wire cutters, fake money, satchel charge, strobes) would be provided by the game organisers, but plenty (tape, radio, grenade launcher, notebook, watch, cable ties) are up to players to have. No game would be designed where every player requires a grenade launcher, certainly, but I don't see any harm in providing an advantage to someone who put up the money and effort to trolley one into the game. Likewise for night vision or a host of other things.

It's worth pointing out that this is in regards to a milsim game, not a normal Sunday skirmish.

thermo

Puding wrote: »

well it would be a elitist attitude to require such a specialist item to achieve an objective, yes i know that games do require players to have specific camo for example but this is a very generic items and are usually broad restrictions like tan and green to allow people option

in your first post and the fact you included a poll gave the impression of a game that would be open to all to use nvg and they would be need to complete the objective but it was up to that side to arrange, more than likely down to luck which could result in one team with one set or none at all and another team with 4 or 5

your last few posts give a slightly different impression with them being used more as a event supplied prop, pre arranged spotter teams organized by the event to create a level playing field

for me if its just down to the teams to arrange then to much is left to chance and makeup of the team, if there pre arrange as props ok fair enough as everyone is reading from the same script, as i said before its just my 2 cents and my personal view, i always go for the KISS principle and would say that any objective/game should be achievable with the bar minimum of equipment used to play airsoft e.g a person and a airsoft device ( aeg/gbb/springer), if anything else is needed i would say it would need to be organised by the event itself

im hardly elitist,,,,,,,,,,
NVV is not that specialist when they are the same price as a pistol and acording to the poll over a quater of those that answered said they owned such devices, i would of thought the likes of you would of encouraged new game dynamics in a mil-sim envoirment, like i said i was an idea, try something new........... thank you for your feed back.

Stonewolf

I have niether, I got unjobbed as I was getting into the game

thermo

Stonewolf wrote: »

I have niether, I got unjobbed as I was getting into the game

there is a lot of people in the same boat. even those of us with jobs are finding it hard to get money for hobbies!

Puding

evilrobotshane wrote: »

I disagree with this. I think it's great to mix it up and have a variety of types of objectives - at allows for much, much more interesting play. Off the top of my head, some objectives I've completed or witnessed in games required:

• duct tape
• wire cutters
• strobe lights
• glow sticks
• radio
• grenade launcher
• satchel charge
• notebook and pencil
• watch
• cable ties
• string
• fake money

and so on and so on. Some of these (wire cutters, fake money, satchel charge, strobes) would be provided by the game organisers, but plenty (tape, radio, grenade launcher, notebook, watch, cable ties) are up to players to have. No game would be designed where every player requires a grenade launcher, certainly, but I don't see any harm in providing an advantage to someone who put up the money and effort to trolley one into the game. Likewise for night vision or a host of other things.

It's worth pointing out that this is in regards to a milsim game, not a normal Sunday skirmish.

and how many of these items did you pre arrange or include as you know people already have them that where coming, items you listed in the main are house hold items but even then i still would run with the kiss theory as an even organizer, I see a world of difference between a pen and paper and a watch to NVG

i completely agree that interesting and new items should be introduced but specialist and expecive, specialist and unique items should not be compulsory to complete and objective

im hardly elitist,,,,,,,,,,
NVV is not that specialist when they are the same price as a pistol and according to the poll over a quarter of those that answered said they owned such devices, i would of thought the likes of you would of encouraged new game dynamics in a mil-sim environment, like i said i was an idea, try something new........... thank you for your feedback.

but people can use a pistol at every skirmish NVG they would not, im sorry but its my eyes it does give them impression of a higher tier e.g you can only play in this type of game with this level or equipment, some people can only afford an aeg, to a lot of people 100euros to spend on an item of limit use is a luxary

im sorry but i find your last sentence rather offensive, im not saying your wrong im not shouting you down, im not say my way is right and you way is wrong, i just offered a different pov i get the feeling sometimes there is no point in replying to threads hear with anything other an agreement

i want airsoft to grow and evolve and get better i was only give my view based on experinace, at the moment it is hard enough to get people to change to invest in mids to as a milsim requirement let alone anything else, i just have no wish to see a gap to expand even more, i want to see milsim grow beyond its limit numbers at the moment, i just see the way to do this as keeping it as easily accessible as possible

thermo

Puding wrote: »

, at the moment it is hard enough to get people to change to invest in mids to as a milsim requirement let alone anything else, i just have no wish to see a gap to expand even more, i want to see milsim grow beyond its limit numbers at the moment, i just see the way to do this as keeping it as easily accessible as possible

well that can be constrewed as elitist, there is no need to have mids in order to play mil-sim. game requirements such as mids only can be off putting. some guns you just cant get mids for and some guns a set of 10 mid-caps would cost the same as 2 sets of NVV's from lidl!
i recently ran a mil-sim with no restriction on mag type only ammo quantity, and it went well, and that was genuinely accessable to all!
mil-sim in my opinion is the way forward, but in order to get new players to try it and get hooked, we need to make it easier for them to play and trying to ram the mids only rule down their throats will get us nowhere.

Stonewolf

Puding wrote: »

and how many of these items did you pre arrange or include as you know people already have them that where coming, items you listed in the main are house hold items but even then i still would run with the kiss theory as an even organizer, I see a world of difference between a pen and paper and a watch to NVG

I ran a game at Ops where I'd said a good few times here and in person to people that a pen and paper would be advisable but apart from the two I handed out to each team I don't think anyone else had them. I think expecting people to show up with a certain minimum equipment is a positive thing, it further separates milsim from speedball and allows us to actually pursue interesting games and objectives. I think it's actually good if the organiser does provide a use for the various pieces of field kit people pick up as people spend a lot of money on their expensive toys and so they should be given the chance to use them.

Puding

thermo wrote: »

well that can be constrewed as elitist, there is no need to have mids in order to play mil-sim. game requirements such as mids only can be off putting. some guns you just cant get mids for and some guns a set of 10 mid-caps would cost the same as 2 sets of NVV's from lidl!
i recently ran a mil-sim with no restriction on mag type only ammo quantity, and it went well, and that was genuinely accessable to all!
mil-sim in my opinion is the way forward, but in order to get new players to try it and get hooked, we need to make it easier for them to play and trying to ram the mids only rule down their throats will get us nowhere.

and these types of restrictions have been called elitist in the past, I never said in the post that people have to have mods they where used as an example of equipment retricts that are imposed on milsim events ( this being the most common ) I've always said that milsim is note defined by equipment or rulesets but by the mind set of the people , I would rather have people with high caps and the right minset rather than all the cling

your post seems to reinforce the point I was trying to make about specialist equipment

Puding

Stonewolf wrote: »

I ran a game at Ops where I'd said a good few times here and in person to people that a pen and paper would be advisable but apart from the two I handed out to each team I don't think anyone else had them. I think expecting people to show up with a certain minimum equipment is a positive thing, it further separates milsim from speedball and allows us to actually pursue interesting games and objectives. I think it's actually good if the organiser does provide a use for the various pieces of field kit people pick up as people spend a lot of money on their expensive toys and so they should be given the chance to use them.

And I have been to events where people have failed to bring basic personal equipment for off game let alone in game items, even with clear kit lists provided , as an event organiser you have to plan for the lowest common denominator , it's great to plan for high targets in terms of game play but to achive this you have to take out as much chance as possible , it's a great irony that the more open rules sets get the tighter the organisation has to be to keep things on track

thermo

Puding wrote: »

and these types of restrictions have been called elitist in the past, I never said in the post that people have to have mods they where used as an example of equipment retricts that are imposed on milsim events ( this being the most common ) I've always said that milsim is note defined by equipment or rulesets but by the mind set of the people , I would rather have people with high caps and the right minset rather than all the cling

your post seems to reinforce the point I was trying to make about specialist equipment

well ok, so far i've been secured 2 sets of NVV's for use in a night game so it would appear a decent number of people have them and are happy to use them.

evilrobotshane

Puding wrote: »

and how many of these items did you pre arrange or include as you know people already have them that where coming

Ahh, you'd be amazed at the amount of crap I carry on me for a typical airsoft game. (I know I'm an exception to the norm in this regard)

I portrayed myself as having a more extreme stance on this than I really do though, so I'll clarify. For example, if there's a vehicle in a game, shooting it with a grenade launcher seems like a good way to disable it. It'd also in that case be nice to provide, say, mines or sticky-bombs or something, or a way to take out the driver with an AEG, for those without a grenade launcher so it's not necessary to complete the objective, but I do think it adds to the game to have the grenade launcher able to do its thing. It provides an advantage to those who have put in the effort to have one, makes them happy by giving them a chance to use their cool toy, encourages people to try and ensure their team has some on the day, but doesn't scupper the less fortunate by making an objective unachievable.

The night vision goggles thing I'd be inclined to treat the way radios are often treated - each team requires some, but not every person requires one. And that's what's being proposed here.

I disagree also with the idea of having to cater to the lowest common denominator. Frankly I've played enough games with the lowest common denominator.

(well, I haven't, and I'll play plenty more and love it, but I think one can be forgiven for wanting to set a minimum standard for more advanced games)

Blazer

I kinda agree with Puding's comments but to be fair to thermo it's a good idea...what you could do is limit the NVG's to 1 or 2 people per team and as long as you had a proper account of equipment people had (make sure no one else is cheating and carrying additional NVGs as well) you have the ideas for some great games..
Also I'm not sure on milsim rules since I haven't played one yet but maybe have higher penalties for the NVG carrier such as a much longer respawn etc..
that way each team would be a lot cleverer tactics wise as to how they would use their nvg man...
say my team takes out the other team's NVG guy...and let's say it's a 20 min wait before he can respawn with the NVG kit again...
Now..do my team use our nvg guy to take out the other team or do we use the 20 mins to try and achieve our objectives...


I'm just throwing this idea out there....but it's great to see ideas for games being thrown out there and open up different games for airsoft
There's no need to slag off an idea (not having a go at you Puding just an observation on some posts I see on here sometimes)..just a simple constructive criticism as to whether it would work or not...and if you think it won't, be open to alternatives that would allow the game to go forward

thermo

how many people who have NVV would use them in a night game? ive started writing the night game, i have got the story and an overveiw of the game roughly done up, im now at the tweaking stage, and would like to know if people would like to use any night vision they own in a mil-sim type game?
thanks
lar

andy_g

Well i have both larry so ya can use mine if needs be

thermo

andy_g wrote: »

Well i have both larry so ya can use mine if needs be

thanks

sliabh

It's getting a bit off topic now, but having written and run a couple of mil-sims now, I am taking a "split the difference" approach to requirements.

In the current sim I am writing, most players are just expected to meet the basic requirements of gun, uniform, ammo limits, etc. But each side will have 3-4 specialist roles. These are expected to be filled by experienced mil-simmers, and they have a higher requirement for gear. In the case of the scenario I am writing they will be expected to have 2 radios, pen and paper, and ideally binoculars. If/when this scenario is run these specialist roles would be assigned in advance, so the players in them will know they have to have some extra kit.

The idea here is that it will allow different levels of player to get involved as suits them.

It mightn't have been clear initially, but I think Thermo has the right idea as well, Incorporate NVGs, just not for every players.

As an aside, you could start a hole thread (and maybe we should) on what exactly makes a mil-sim. My view is that it's (in rough order)

• Playing with story driven objectives
• Tougher respawn and medic rules to make getting shot more of a problem.
• Equipment restrictions like, uniforms, ammo limits, etc.

thermo

sliabh wrote: »

It's getting a bit off topic now, but having written and run a couple of mil-sims now, I am taking a "split the difference" approach to requirements.

In the current sim I am writing, most players are just expected to meet the basic requirements of gun, uniform, ammo limits, etc. But each side will have 3-4 specialist roles. These are expected to be filled by experienced mil-simmers, and they have a higher requirement for gear. In the case of the scenario I am writing they will be expected to have 2 radios, pen and paper, and ideally binoculars. If/when this scenario is run these specialist roles would be assigned in advance, so the players in them will know they have to have some extra kit.

The idea here is that it will allow different levels of player to get involved as suits them.

It mightn't have been clear initially, but I think Thermo has the right idea as well, Incorporate NVGs, just not for every players.

As an aside, you could start a hole thread (and maybe we should) on what exactly makes a mil-sim. My view is that it's (in rough order)

• Playing with story driven objectives
• Tougher respawn and medic rules to make getting shot more of a problem.
• Equipment restrictions like, uniforms, ammo limits, etc.

well said, that defination of mil-sim pretty much sums it up for me.
at the moment im in the middle of writing 2 games, the ironwolf series im aiming for to be open enough that players who wish to try mil-sim or getting into it may do so without a large outlay of money, lets face it who has money these days?
im also writing a night game and this will be more aimed at "the vetrans of mil-sim" with a tighter rule set, open to all, but certain gear will be required.

MerryDespot

I like the sound of this Lar. Good to see that Shane's post the other day is starting to pay off. And for the record, I had immense craic at the first of your Ironwolf games - especially in the mine field. That little bit of brilliance was brought to you by the letter A and a few pieces of string and some cans - now that's recessionista airsoft!

thermo

MerryDespot wrote: »

I like the sound of this Lar. Good to see that Shane's post the other day is starting to pay off. And for the record, I had immense craic at the first of your Ironwolf games - especially in the mine field. That little bit of brilliance was brought to you by the letter A and a few pieces of string and some cans - now that's recessionista airsoft!

I prefere to call it mcgiver airsoft ..... Don't worry I'm always trying to think of ways to expand the games and props, besides take this ammo box from a to b,,,,,,,