UF and timber flooring

tfer

a friend of mine told me recently that UF heating doesnt work so well if you have timber flooring, I plan on having 300mm of insulation in the floor, concrete with UF heating, timber floors in 2x living rooms and tiles every where else. Upstairs will be be floor joists with timber floors throughout. I know timber is not a great heat conductor like concrete, so is my friend telling the truth or talking through his hat

Outkast_IRE

hes telling the truth , if you want timber floors with underfloor you are basically paying to heat the floor , then heat the timber, then your room . You will basically be throwing money out the window.

I have recently seen some Tiles that are imitation wood flooring , the ones i seen laid looked very impressive and it was only when i walked on them i realised they were a tile , would you consider this ?

tfer

I hadn't thought of the wood tile effect, which would be fine downstairs, but what about upstairs ? should I go for rads? was thinking oil condensing, solar panel for hot water(by the way does solar panel give you enough hot water for showers, or does it need a boost from the oil) its going to be a timber frame with 300mm insulation on floor walls and ceiling. ( If anything sound wrong am sorry, I just got back from pub watching Leeds v Notts Forest and had afew pints with my dad )

Outkast_IRE

Were you expecting to put underfloor upstairs ? what is the floor is it just timber joists and floorboards or is it concrete floor upstairs .
Underfloor upstairs with timber joists and floorboards is usually expensive and a lot more effort to install .

Solar panels on a decent day during the summer should give you enough hot water provided the system is installed correct with good size cylinder etc. But on very cloudy days etc you will need to boost with the oil.

I dont know much about insulation depths in walls etc all i know is the more the better where underfloor is concerned as your trying to achieve and mantain a constant ambient temperature .

tfer

If I was putting UF upstairs I would put a concrete screed over the ply on the timber joists, but if it isn't going to work with timber floors over it I think I will have to go with rads

Outkast_IRE

tfer wrote: »

If I was putting UF upstairs I would put a concrete screed over the ply on the timber joists, but if it isn't going to work with timber floors over it I think I will have to go with rads

Its not that it wont work , its that it makes it incredibly inefficent , as i said you will be paying to heat the concrete and the timber before the heat starts making its way into the room .
Personally i dont like a system of underfloor downstairs and rads upstairs as these create two different types of heat and generally i would reccomend people to stick with one or the other.

Carlow52

tfer wrote: »

, I plan on having 300mm of insulation in the floor,

What exact choice of material have u in mind here?

En passant, your freind is right: UFH with TF is pretty close to gaga.

I would look v closely at getting close to PH standard from a building standard perspective and look at MHRV as opposed to UF

Not what you asked about but IMO UF is fine in nursing homes etc where heat is required 27/7

Outkast_IRE

Carlow52 wrote: »

heat is required 27/7

Jesus nobody told me they extended the average day !!!

Good point though the mhrv system is good , if you can achieve the necessary insulation levels and airtightness , i would personally love to be in a home with the system.

Carlow52

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Jesus nobody told me they extended the average day !!!

Good point though the mhrv system is good , if you can achieve the necessary insulation levels and airtightness , i would personally love to be in a home with the system.

daylight saving irish style:D

CJhaughey

I can only post my own experiences with UFH and timber floors.
UFH downstairs, and 20mm solid red deal floated on 3mm PE foam and a Vapour barrier.
I have no problems with heating the house. At all.
The heat still comes into the house as heat rises. It doesn't feel particularly warm underfoot but thats the nature of wood. In rooms with tiles such as the bathroom you can feel it warm underfoot.
MHRV is NOT a heating system, it recovers heat that would otherwise be lost through the ventilation process.

Outkast_IRE

CJhaughey wrote: »

I can only post my own experiences with UFH and timber floors.
UFH downstairs, and 20mm solid red deal floated on 3mm PE foam and a Vapour barrier.
I have no problems with heating the house. At all.
The heat still comes into the house as heat rises. It doesn't feel particularly warm underfoot but thats the nature of wood. In rooms with tiles such as the bathroom you can feel it warm underfoot.
MHRV is NOT a heating system, it recovers heat that would otherwise be lost through the ventilation process.

The point is not that it wont heat the house its the very valid point that cant be argued with that you are spending extra money every day to heat the wooden floor . You are losing efficency and created a longer warm up time by having the wooden floor over it .

CJhaughey

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

The point is not that it wont heat the house its the very valid point that cant be argued with that you are spending extra money every day to heat the wooden floor . You are losing efficency and created a longer warm up time by having the wooden floor over it .

You could also say that having a delayed release of heat is a good thing. Rather than all the heat being suddenly released it warms the house over a longer time period. You only lose efficiency if the heat is lost or not released at the desired time, which is a controller issue and the reason the MHRV is used.
I don't see that I am spending extra money on heating the floor, the money to keep the house warm is the same whether the floor is timber or laminate.

Outkast_IRE

CJhaughey wrote: »

You could also say that having a delayed release of heat is a good thing. Rather than all the heat being suddenly released it warms the house over a longer time period. You only lose efficiency if the heat is lost or not released at the desired time, which is a controller issue and the reason the MHRV is used.
I don't see that I am spending extra money on heating the floor, the money to keep the house warm is the same whether the floor is timber or laminate.

Wood is a pretty decent insulator and as a result will insulate your room from the heating below it, This means the system does have to work harder to heat that room, reducing efficency , increasing running costs.
You dont have a valid argument against this your are losing efficency by laying a floor over it end of story.

And the whole thing of a delayed release of heat what good is that to you if your too warm , even with the best controls on a system there is going to be times when your too warm , or even too cold , and by laying that floor over it you have made the usual warm up and cool down times longer .

tfer

Carlow52 wrote: »

What exact choice of material have u in mind here?

I plan on using an insulated raft foundation

CJhaughey

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Wood is a pretty decent insulator and as a result will insulate your room from the heating below it, This means the system does have to work harder to heat that room, reducing efficency , increasing running costs.
You dont have a valid argument against this your are losing efficency by laying a floor over it end of story.

And the whole thing of a delayed release of heat what good is that to you if your too warm , even with the best controls on a system there is going to be times when your too warm , or even too cold , and by laying that floor over it you have made the usual warm up and cool down times longer .

You are correct wood is quite good as an insulator, however it is not good enough to stop heat rising into a room, this is simple physics.
If wood was as good an insulation material as you seem to think then there would be no need to have Rockwool, fibreglass, or cellulose as an insulation in the ceiling.

The warm up cool down issue is inherent in UFH systems, you are basically using the entire floor as a large storage heater, so of course if the day turns out to be hotter than you think you will be warmer than you would like.
It is easier and cheaper to cool a building down by opening a door or window then it is to try and heat it up.
I stand by my assertion that a delayed release of heat is better. At least in my experience with both UFH and solid timber floors.
What flooring and heating system do you have, out of interest?

Outkast_IRE

CJhaughey wrote: »

You are correct wood is quite good as an insulator, however it is not good enough to stop heat rising into a room, this is simple physics.
If wood was as good an insulation material as you seem to think then there would be no need to have Rockwool, fibreglass, or cellulose as an insulation in the ceiling.

The warm up cool down issue is inherent in UFH systems, you are basically using the entire floor as a large storage heater, so of course if the day turns out to be hotter than you think you will be warmer than you would like.
It is easier and cheaper to cool a building down by opening a door or window then it is to try and heat it up.
I stand by my assertion that a delayed release of heat is better. At least in my experience with both UFH and solid timber floors.
What flooring and heating system do you have, out of interest?

I have rads the house is over 20 years old so rads were the only option then , if i was doing a new build i would use underfloor , as a plumber i have installed both rads and underfloor on countless builds at this stage and been around afterwards to see what effect different flooring has with underfloor.

Yes the warm up and cool down is always a issue with underfloor , my point is your making it a longer warm up and cool down.

Did i ever say wood was the ultimate insulator ? every material has a insulation value and as i said wood was a decent insulator, and your basically putting a insulator between you and your heat source . Thats a fact.

You say its easier and cheaper to cool a building down by opening a window, thats the last thing you want to do you might of well just wave goodbye to that money you spent on heating it in the first place.

I dont know what your qualified in but i can gurantee you , anyone who tells people to put wooden floors down over underfloor isnt a plumber with training in the area of underfloor heating

CJhaughey

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I dont know what your qualified in but i can gurantee you , anyone who tells people to put wooden floors down over underfloor isnt a plumber with training in the area of underfloor heating

Like I say, I have loved with UFH and solid wood floors since 05. I am not a plumber but I don't like seeing bad advice bandied about.
You don't seem to understand the principles of UFH by your posts.
Post #4 you say

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I dont know much about insulation depths in walls etc all i know is the more the better where underfloor is concerned as your trying to achieve and mantain a constant ambient temperature .

Which by defination means the slab of concrete that the UFH is laid in is acting as a slow release storage heater and not as an immediate radiator of heat. Tiles and similar make the floor feel warm but they also cool off faster than a timber floor, at least thats what my feet tell me in the winter.

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Its not that it wont work , its that it makes it incredibly inefficent , as i said you will be paying to heat the concrete and the timber before the heat starts making its way into the room .

How do you judge efficiency? Is it that the floor doesn't feel hot or that the house is warm all the time.
The timber doesn't really hold the heat down, it just doesn't feel hot like a tile or thin floor covering does.
As long as the house is warm and the UFH consumes the same as it always has then it is not a loss of efficiency but rather a percieved lack of floor heat.

In any case the OP would be well advised to insulate, insulate, and insulate as best they can. If they fit a good quality HRV system and UFH, their choice of floor covering will make little difference to the heat inside the house.
Thats my experience.

Carlow52

CJhaughey wrote: »

...
MHRV is NOT a heating system, it recovers heat that would otherwise be lost through the ventilation process.

Just to say it was not my intention to make that suggestion which is a fair interpretation of my post which was too short.:o

To keep the hole I've dug at current depth will say no more:)

Outkast_IRE

CJhaughey wrote: »

Like I say, I have loved with UFH and solid wood floors since 05. I am not a plumber but I don't like seeing bad advice bandied about.
You don't seem to understand the principles of UFH by your posts.
Post #4 you say
Which by defination means the slab of concrete that the UFH is laid in is acting as a slow release storage heater and not as an immediate radiator of heat. Tiles and similar make the floor feel warm but they also cool off faster than a timber floor, at least thats what my feet tell me in the winter.

How do you judge efficiency? Is it that the floor doesn't feel hot or that the house is warm all the time.
The timber doesn't really hold the heat down, it just doesn't feel hot like a tile or thin floor covering does.
As long as the house is warm and the UFH consumes the same as it always has then it is not a loss of efficiency but rather a percieved lack of floor heat.

In any case the OP would be well advised to insulate, insulate, and insulate as best they can. If they fit a good quality HRV system and UFH, their choice of floor covering will make little difference to the heat inside the house.
Thats my experience.

You dont even understand what your arguing about
1. you say the timber feels warmer for longer than a tile would , of course it does as iv said in all my previous posts you have created a system with a longer warm up and cool down. Which is a negative as far as any installer and designer is concerned .

2. You ask how do you judge efficency simple!! efficiency is the ratio between the amount of usable heat produced and the amount of potential energy in the fuel. The point is that by needing to heat this wooden floor you are using more energy to heat the same room.

As you are heating the concrete slab , then the wooden floor before you feel any difference in the room, using more energy to do so than you would with a different floor finish