Red Grouse

LostCovey

Why is it legal to shoot Grouse if there's so few of them?

LostCovey

bunny shooter

I think you'll find they have a very short "open" season to reflect this.

Now would you like to tell us why it should be illegal? :P

jwshooter

we live in one f@cked country .

on our mountains red grouse are suffering from encroachment of forestry . the fencing that accompanies it .

vermin on the mountains is rife .

do the npws carry out vermin control on the lands they have been entrusted with ? .

there is element in power that are hell bent on releasing raptors into out small ecosystem .what will these raptors eat ,kentucky fried chicken ? .no grouse , small birds etc .


so why should our native game bird suffer on the whim of a townie that has probably has never set foot on heather .

we have rangers shooting our native red in donegal and leaving them on the hill to feed eagles from scotland .raptors have there place in our small countryside but not at the expense of other established fauna .

fodda

I thought it was sheep production which reduced grouse numbers, also grouse moors have to be managed by burning i think.

Forestry get used to it most of Ireland will be covered in it very soon.

LostCovey

fodda wrote: »

I thought it was sheep production which reduced grouse numbers,

I am sure it didn't help, but that is hardly a problem now, I think sheep numbers on hills around here have never been lower

fodda wrote: »

I thought it was sheep production which reduced grouse numbers, also grouse moors have to be managed by burning i think.

Those are the moors that are managed for intensive grouse shooting in Scotland. Burning if done properly increases grouse numbers, but that is only necessary if they are being shot.

Here we shoot grouse and don't manage the heather, and plant forestry.

LostCovey

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

we live in one f@cked country .

on our mountains red grouse are suffering from encroachment of forestry . the fencing that accompanies it .

Forestry, yes, but I hardly think the fence is much of an additional problem - what would interest a grouse inside a spruce forest?

jwshooter wrote: »

vermin on the mountains is rife .

do the npws carry out vermin control on the lands they have been entrusted with ? .

What land has the npws been entrusted with? Don't understand this bit.

jwshooter wrote: »

there is element in power that are hell bent on releasing raptors into out small ecosystem .what will these raptors eat ,kentucky fried chicken ? .no grouse , small birds etc . so why should our native game bird suffer on the whim of a townie that has probably has never set foot on heather .

Won't nature reach a balance if it is left alone? The raptor release programmes are just restoring natural predators that were shot and poisoned by people who wanted to shoot their prey. By shooting the eagles, they got more grouse. They have most of the grouse shot now, so they will have to shoot the eagles again. Is that the logic?

LostCovey

LostCovey

bunny shooter wrote: »

I think you'll find they have a very short "open" season to reflect this.

Now would you like to tell us why it should be illegal? :P

They just seem to be very vulnerable. I think a lot of damage is being done to a shrinking population even with a short open season. They are being shot by people who contribute nothing to supporting the population.

Mind you that is probably as well because their idea of supporting the population would probably be shooting harriers.

I just don't see why it is legal to kill a grouse when they are so close to extinction in Ireland.

LostCovey

Tackleberrywho

LostCovey wrote: »

They just seem to be very vulnerable. I think a lot of damage is being done to a shrinking population even with a short open season. They are being shot by people who contribute nothing to supporting the population.

Mind you that is probably as well because their idea of supporting the population would probably be shooting harriers.

I just don't see why it is legal to kill a grouse when they are so close to extinction in Ireland.

LostCovey

If only Gormless encouraged farmers to "farm" grouse etc in a semi habitat/farm environment.

Give them a grant, or let them off on some other fee, Farmers will try to protect birds etc, especially if they are encouraged.

jwshooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Forestry, yes, but I hardly think the fence is much of an additional problem - what would interest a grouse inside a spruce forest?


What land has the npws been entrusted with? Don't understand this bit.



Won't nature reach a balance if it is left alone? The raptor release programmes are just restoring natural predators that were shot and poisoned by people who wanted to shoot their prey. By shooting the eagles, they got more grouse. They have most of the grouse shot now, so they will have to shoot the eagles again. Is that the logic?

LostCovey

for some one that thinks the know it all you know very little , before a Forester plants a mountain they fence it normally about a 4 foot fence or higher if there is deer in the area .

what height will a covey of grouse fly at ? .

bunny shooter

LostCovey wrote: »

They just seem to be very vulnerable.

Isn't every wild animal & bird in reality?

LostCovey wrote: »

I think a lot of damage is being done to a shrinking population even with a short open season.

Be worse if the season was longer though?

LostCovey wrote: »

They are being shot by people who contribute nothing to supporting the population.

I know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.

LostCovey wrote: »

Mind you that is probably as well because their idea of supporting the population would probably be shooting harriers.

That statement is a very indiscriminate one taring all with the same brush :rolleyes:

LostCovey wrote: »

I just don't see why it is legal to kill a grouse when they are so close to extinction in Ireland.

LostCovey

Maybe without a shooting season they would be extinct?

LostCovey

bunny shooter wrote: »

Isn't every wild animal & bird in reality?

Well yes, if you are looking down the rib of a side-by-side.

bunny shooter wrote: »

Be worse if the season was longer though?

Yes I totally agree with you. You are quite correct there.

bunny shooter wrote: »

I know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.

In fairness, I do not believe we are talking about the same thing. That is a managed shoot. Here in the west we do not have that. We have wild Grouse, the hills are really not managed for anything (unless you count wind turbines and forestry) and people shoot them. These are the circumstances where I think shooting should be banned. If your lads own a mountain and manage it for shooting, it's not quite the same thing. In fairness they probably manage shooting pressure and take a sustainable crop, if they have exclusive shooting rights. I don't think Grouse are under threat there. What is under threat there is predators which is a whole other story. What vermin do they shoot apart from foxes and grey crows?

bunny shooter wrote: »

Maybe without a shooting season they would be extinct?

I think there is nothing I could say that would undermine your argument more than your very own statement there bunny shooter.:cool:

LostCovey

bunny shooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Well yes, if you are looking down the rib of a side-by-side.

You should see the amount of wildlife killed on the roads around here :eek: A lot more than is shot I guarantee you

LostCovey wrote: »

Yes I totally agree with you. You are quite correct there.

LostCovey wrote: »

In fairness, I do not believe we are talking about the same thing. That is a managed shoot. Here in the west we do not have that. We have wild Grouse, the hills are really not managed for anything (unless you count wind turbines and forestry) and people shoot them. These are the circumstances where I think shooting should be banned. If your lads own a mountain and manage it for shooting, it's not quite the same thing. In fairness they probably manage shooting pressure and take a sustainable crop, if they have exclusive shooting rights. I don't think Grouse are under threat there. What is under threat there is predators which is a whole other story. What vermin do they shoot apart from foxes and grey crows?

It is not managed in the way you are referring to. These lads are in a local gun club and shooting totally wild birds afaik.

LostCovey wrote: »

I think there is nothing I could say that would undermine your argument more than your very own statement there bunny shooter.:cool:

LostCovey

I should have expanded on my point ................. what I meant was that if they can't be shot the shooters might not/won't look after 'em and their habitat in the way they currently are and they, as in the grouse, might cease to exist as a result. Pheasants are not native to Ireland and are only there as they are a game bird and local clubs and individuals release and attempt to protect them, granted in order to shoot them, but they don't shoot them all. If shooting them was banned in the morning how long do you think it would take pheasants in their current numbers to decrease or cease to exist?

Tackleberrywho

I should have expanded on my point ................. what I meant was that if they can't be shot the shooters might not/won't look after 'em and their habitat in the way they currently are and they, as in the grouse, might cease to exist as a result. Pheasants are not native to Ireland and are only there as they are a game bird and local clubs and individuals release and attempt to protect them, granted in order to shoot them, but they don't shoot them all. If shooting them was banned in the morning how long do you think it would take pheasants in their current numbers to decrease or cease to exist?[/QUOTE]

I'd have to agree on this, a friend of mine bought several "breeding pairs of birds"

Laid eggs but none hatched.

if it was not for game clubs Pheazies would prob disappear
Foxes maggers and the likes would wipe them out Toute Suite as Delboy would say

LostCovey

bunny shooter wrote: »

It is not managed in the way you are referring to. These lads are in a local gun club and shooting totally wild birds afaik.

Ah come off it if they are burning heather they have more than shooting rights, they must either own or lease the land (plenty of €€€€€s obviously, more luck to them) that is grouse management, and a managed shoot.

What I was talking about was people shooting wild grouse on a wild hill.

LostCovey

bunny shooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Ah come off it if they are burning heather they have more than shooting rights, they must either own or lease the land (plenty of €€€€€s obviously, more luck to them) that is grouse management, and a managed shoot.

What I was talking about was people shooting wild grouse on a wild hill.

LostCovey

Or simply landowners permission :rolleyes: Not all shooting involves paying big bucks for the privilage to shoot Most rural clubs & individuals shoot simply with the landowners permission. Payment is often nothing more than a few pheasant, duck, deer, rabbit etc during the season or maybe a bottle at xmass or a bit of crop protection etc



I notice you haven't replied to most of my last post, especially the part about pheasants

LostCovey

bunny shooter wrote: »

Or simply landowners permission :rolleyes: Not all shooting involves paying big bucks for the privilage to shoot Most rural clubs & individuals shoot simply with the landowners permission. Payment is often nothing more than a few pheasant, duck, deer, rabbit etc during the season or maybe a bottle at xmass or a bit of crop protection etc



I notice you haven't replied to most of my last post, especially the part about pheasants

Very rosemantic. Your shooting pals have landowners with big areas of open mountain, who will allow these boyos burn their land for a bottle of plonk and a a few freezer bags of game full of lead shot.

Yeah, right.

LostCovey

LostCovey

bunny shooter wrote: »

I should have expanded on my point ................. what I meant was that if they can't be shot the shooters might not/won't look after 'em and their habitat in the way they currently are and they, as in the grouse, might cease to exist as a result. Pheasants are not native to Ireland and are only there as they are a game bird and local clubs and individuals release and attempt to protect them, granted in order to shoot them, but they don't shoot them all. If shooting them was banned in the morning how long do you think it would take pheasants in their current numbers to decrease or cease to exist?

I ignored the bit about pheasants because I thought its irrelevance was obvious. Pheasants are as you point out non-native, introduced alien species. Pretty, harmless - pretty harmless. Their population depends on continuous rearing and releasing by people who shoot them. If the people who shoot them stopped shooting them and kept rearing them there would be more. If they stopped rearing and shooting them there would be less and they would probably die out.

So what.

Ring-necked Pheasants are an introduced alien species from Asia. One game club releases small ones, another releases black ones. They are semi-domesticated hybridised genetic junk, selectively bred among different races for shooting, and realistically are just a step above farmyard fowl.

They have nothing to do with the near-extinction of a native species like Red Grouse.

LostCovey

landkeeper

LostCovey wrote: »

Very rosemantic. Your shooting pals have landowners with big areas of open mountain, who will allow these boyos burn their land for a bottle of plonk and a a few freezer bags of game full of lead shot.

Yeah, right.

LostCovey

how patronising you are ,take of the jaundiced spectacles and have a long hard look at life matey the fact remains that most conservation of game species is done by lads who have a vested interest in the game that they are passionate about ,irrespective as to what they are about most do some sort of predator control ,habitat improvement , etc etc it's a hard concept for most anti shooting folk to appreciate as to them it defies logic , in fact burning only needs to be done on small patches of heather to encourage new growth go and do a bit of google study before you lambast someone who is at least doing something constructive !!!! red grouse seem to have the odds stacked against them , with worm problems and dependancy upon fresh new heather shoots , if you take the time to do a bit of reasearch you'll find that only the places that are activly managed for shooting concerns hold a steady healthy population of grouse and even those have unexplained population peaks and troughs .Now you can spout all you want about artificially high numbers only being kept for shooting but the fact remains that where they are managed properly at least they are there , whereas most of the unmanaged areas where no-one gives a damm they have all but dissapeared like the grey partridge you take your user name from
without proper intervention and management both species will go the way of the passenger pigeon and the dodo
i have yet to see or hear of any other group of people apart from shooting folk attempting to make life any better or easier for grouse in this country

LostCovey

landkeeper wrote: »

how patronising you are ,take of the jaundiced spectacles and have a long hard look at life matey the fact remains that most conservation of game species is done by lads who have a vested interest in the game that they are passionate about ,irrespective as to what they are about most do some sort of predator control ,habitat improvement , etc etc it's a hard concept for most anti shooting folk to appreciate as to them it defies logic , in fact burning only needs to be done on small patches of heather to encourage new growth go and do a bit of google study before you lambast someone who is at least doing something constructive !!!! red grouse seem to have the odds stacked against them , with worm problems and dependancy upon fresh new heather shoots , if you take the time to do a bit of reasearch you'll find that only the places that are activly managed for shooting concerns hold a steady healthy population of grouse and even those have unexplained population peaks and troughs .Now you can spout all you want about artificially high numbers only being kept for shooting but the fact remains that where they are managed properly at least they are there , whereas most of the unmanaged areas where no-one gives a damm they have all but dissapeared like the grey partridge you take your user name from
without proper intervention and management both species will go the way of the passenger pigeon and the dodo
i have yet to see or hear of any other group of people apart from shooting folk attempting to make life any better or easier for grouse in this country

I lambasted no-one, but bunny shooter claims that penniless do-gooders in Wexford are burning mountain heather to manage habitat for grouse, and the landowners allow this ecological incineration on their property for a mere offering of a bottle of chardonnay and a brace of pheasant's m'lud.

I find that hard to believe, but maybe it is true. Great if it's true. A little rose-tinted I suspect.

Bunny shooter also claims that doing this is not managing a managed shoot. Well that is his opinion, I disagree, but that really is not germane to the discussion which is about shooting pressure on Red Grouse on hills with no habitat management or shooting control.

If a simple gun club policy of rearin' em, releasin' em', feedin' em, and shootin' em could save a species, why didn't it work for the the Grey Partridge - your example?

LostCovey

landkeeper

He never mentioned pennyless do-gooders what he said was 'i know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.' which was in response to your dig about people shooting them who contributing nothing to supporting the population
now in fairness neither you or i know the landowner concerned he may well be delighted that someone is trying to help grouse on his land even if its for the reason you seem to dislike but the fact remains at least they are doing something !!! are you ???



Partridge all you have to do is look at the uk for that answer the season there is much longer than here there is a lot more keepering and land management and yet the grey patridge is still in serious decline ,in fact quite a few lads i know in the uk will no longer shoot them and prefer to see and hear them . they are a family bird as you know , very territorial and don't adapt quickly , rearing them is difficult and releasing them properly is labour intensive and difficult compared to pheasants and redlegs. wild grey partridge are nearly a thing of the past , Reasons
changing agriculture , 100 acres of grass/wheat/barley/etc etc one day - cut field the next -hedge removal -increased pressure from an ever increasing bird of prey population , kestrels and sparrow hawks are fond of mr perdix , pesticides and incecticidal sprays on cereal crops killing the minute insect life that chicks need for protein
changing weather patterns wet springs and summers if you have ever seen a partridge chick you'd understand what wet does they are like bumble bees
i have NEVER in 25 years seen or heard a wild grey partridge in this country

Sparks

Lads, tone it down a little and keep it civil please. LostCovey, perhaps you should refamilarise yourself with the forum charter.

I'm also moving this thread to the hunting forum since that's what it's about.

Sika98k

LostCovey wrote: »

If a simple gun club policy of rearin' em, releasin' em', feedin' em, and shootin' em could save a species, why didn't it work for the the Grey Partridge - your example?

LostCovey

Simple because the powers that be put the Grey Partridge on the Red list,ie endangered.
So all the people who had been slogging away at their partridge release programmes stopped.
The same thing will probably happen to the Red Grouse. Birdwatch Ireland has completed a study on the Irish Red Grouse population and correct me if I am wrong but came up with a figure of 2000 breeding pairs.
AFAIK they did not contact one game/gunclub in Wicklow to ask or seek advice on the red grouse population

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

there is element in power that are hell bent on releasing raptors into out small ecosystem .what will these raptors eat ,kentucky fried chicken ? .no grouse , small birds etc .


so why should our native game bird suffer on the whim of a townie that has probably has never set foot on heather .

we have rangers shooting our native red in donegal and leaving them on the hill to feed eagles from scotland .raptors have there place in our small countryside but not at the expense of other established fauna .

Sorry but thats ridiculous:mad: - Golden Eagles before they were wiped out by human ignorance were major predators of many vermin species including young foxes and crow spp. Indeed researchers last year in Donegal were amazed at how many fox remains were at the nest of the first wild Irish eagles reared in over 100 years. Also local farmers have commented on how problems with grey crows have been reduced since the eagles have taken up residence in certain valleys.

PS: Indeed compared to other European countries that have alot more larger birds of prey then we do, the number of pest corvids there appear to be much lower than here going on my experiance of France, Switzerland and Turkey among others.

Feargal as Luimneach

landkeeper wrote: »

how patronising you are ,take of the jaundiced spectacles and have a long hard look at life matey the fact remains that most conservation of game species is done by lads who have a vested interest in the game that they are passionate about ,irrespective as to what they are about most do some sort of predator control ,habitat improvement , etc etc it's a hard concept for most anti shooting folk to appreciate as to them it defies logic , in fact burning only needs to be done on small patches of heather to encourage new growth go and do a bit of google study before you lambast someone who is at least doing something constructive !!!! red grouse seem to have the odds stacked against them , with worm problems and dependancy upon fresh new heather shoots , if you take the time to do a bit of reasearch you'll find that only the places that are activly managed for shooting concerns hold a steady healthy population of grouse and even those have unexplained population peaks and troughs .Now you can spout all you want about artificially high numbers only being kept for shooting but the fact remains that where they are managed properly at least they are there , whereas most of the unmanaged areas where no-one gives a damm they have all but dissapeared like the grey partridge you take your user name from
without proper intervention and management both species will go the way of the passenger pigeon and the dodo
i have yet to see or hear of any other group of people apart from shooting folk attempting to make life any better or easier for grouse in this country

Birdwatch Ireland and the Irish Peatland Consevation Council are actively helping Irish Red Grouse in this country.:D

Birdnuts

landkeeper wrote: »

He never mentioned pennyless do-gooders what he said was 'i know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.' which was in response to your dig about people shooting them who contributing nothing to supporting the population
now in fairness neither you or i know the landowner concerned he may well be delighted that someone is trying to help grouse on his land even if its for the reason you seem to dislike but the fact remains at least they are doing something !!! are you ???



Partridge all you have to do is look at the uk for that answer the season there is much longer than here there is a lot more keepering and land management and yet the grey patridge is still in serious decline ,in fact quite a few lads i know in the uk will no longer shoot them and prefer to see and hear them . they are a family bird as you know , very territorial and don't adapt quickly , rearing them is difficult and releasing them properly is labour intensive and difficult compared to pheasants and redlegs. wild grey partridge are nearly a thing of the past , Reasons
changing agriculture , 100 acres of grass/wheat/barley/etc etc one day - cut field the next -hedge removal -increased pressure from an ever increasing bird of prey population , kestrels and sparrow hawks are fond of mr perdix , pesticides and incecticidal sprays on cereal crops killing the minute insect life that chicks need for protein
changing weather patterns wet springs and summers if you have ever seen a partridge chick you'd understand what wet does they are like bumble bees
i have NEVER in 25 years seen or heard a wild grey partridge in this country

Habitat destruction is the No. 1 cause of native game bird decline(and other species) as you aluded too. However birds of prey are not a threat to healthy, natural populations of game birds. To illustrate my point have a read of the excellent "Lost Birds of Ireland" by Gordon Darcy that came out 10 years ago. This well researched book based on accounts from the time highlights that before habitats such as native woodland, wetlands etc. were pretty much wiped out by English planters and the giant drainage schemes of the 19th centuary, Ireland was awash with both thriving populations of native game birds(Grey Partridge, Grouse, Capercaille, even Cranes bred here then!!) as well as impressive populations of large birds of prey including Goshawks, 2 species of Eagle, Osprey, Red Kite etc.

Its the same thing around the world when it comes to predator and prey populations that are free from human pressures. That is why the Serengeti(Kenya/Tanzania) in Africa has 1.5 million head of Zebra and Wilderbeast alone as well some of the biggest populations of large predators such as Lions left in Africa.

Feargal as Luimneach

landkeeper wrote: »

He never mentioned pennyless do-gooders what he said was 'i know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.' which was in response to your dig about people shooting them who contributing nothing to supporting the population
now in fairness neither you or i know the landowner concerned he may well be delighted that someone is trying to help grouse on his land even if its for the reason you seem to dislike but the fact remains at least they are doing something !!! are you ???



Partridge all you have to do is look at the uk for that answer the season there is much longer than here there is a lot more keepering and land management and yet the grey patridge is still in serious decline ,in fact quite a few lads i know in the uk will no longer shoot them and prefer to see and hear them . they are a family bird as you know , very territorial and don't adapt quickly , rearing them is difficult and releasing them properly is labour intensive and difficult compared to pheasants and redlegs. wild grey partridge are nearly a thing of the past , Reasons
changing agriculture , 100 acres of grass/wheat/barley/etc etc one day - cut field the next -hedge removal -increased pressure from an ever increasing bird of prey population , kestrels and sparrow hawks are fond of mr perdix , pesticides and incecticidal sprays on cereal crops killing the minute insect life that chicks need for protein
changing weather patterns wet springs and summers if you have ever seen a partridge chick you'd understand what wet does they are like bumble bees
i have NEVER in 25 years seen or heard a wild grey partridge in this country

Go up to Lough Boora and beside the model airplane club is where you will see them.

Tackleberrywho

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Go up to Lough Boora and beside the model airplane club is where you will see them. The best thing that flushes them out is a Hen Harrier:).

Or a model airplane :rolleyes:

I love and hate Lough boora. Why they put poxy art and a model airfield in the middle of it I will never know

At least if the art meant something maybe, like a sculpture of some red deer, or animals that roamed it 3000 years ago.(back on topic, I'm rambling)

I once watched a Doc where they were trying to re-home a jaguar in south america. the do-gooders in the end failed, and had to get the help of the hunters "as the hunters knew more about the habits of the jaguar then all those phd students did combined"

It's foolish of birdwatch Ireland not to look to game clubs & hunters for info. Hunters could probably point out every breeding pair, their range, offspring and their age

LostCovey

landkeeper wrote: »

He never mentioned pennyless do-gooders what he said was 'i know a few lads who shoot grouse and tbh they spend a lot of time & effort burning heather in the early spring? and shooting vermin on the mountains where they shoot the grouse.' which was in response to your dig about people shooting them who contributing nothing to supporting the population
now in fairness neither you or i know the landowner concerned he may well be delighted that someone is trying to help grouse on his land even if its for the reason you seem to dislike but the fact remains at least they are doing something !!! are you ???



Partridge all you have to do is look at the uk for that answer the season there is much longer than here there is a lot more keepering and land management and yet the grey patridge is still in serious decline ,in fact quite a few lads i know in the uk will no longer shoot them and prefer to see and hear them . they are a family bird as you know , very territorial and don't adapt quickly , rearing them is difficult and releasing them properly is labour intensive and difficult compared to pheasants and redlegs. wild grey partridge are nearly a thing of the past , Reasons
changing agriculture , 100 acres of grass/wheat/barley/etc etc one day - cut field the next -hedge removal -increased pressure from an ever increasing bird of prey population , kestrels and sparrow hawks are fond of mr perdix , pesticides and incecticidal sprays on cereal crops killing the minute insect life that chicks need for protein
changing weather patterns wet springs and summers if you have ever seen a partridge chick you'd understand what wet does they are like bumble bees
i have NEVER in 25 years seen or heard a wild grey partridge in this country

This went off-topic a good while back, and I put my hands up for chasing it there. If people on a voluntary/informal basis want to manage hills and burn heather, and control access on whatever basis with the landowner, then that is a managed grouse shoot (and I apologise for the 'do-gooder' slur, it was unwarranted). If they take a sustainable harvest of the birds they manage, then there would seem to be a future in that. However managed grouse shooting elsewhere involves managing everything from kestrels to hen harriers by shooting them. And in the UK this falls under the catch-all description of 'keepering'.

And I have never come across such a situation of managed red grouse shooting in Ireland, but I will accept the word of contributors here that it is happening in some places.

However, if we accept that the people who are managing such grouse shoots in Ireland are totally responsible, then that is irrelevant to the basic question of why unlimited and unregulated shooting of Red Grouse on unprotected hills continues to be legal*.

LostCovey

* within a short open season

Feargal as Luimneach

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Or a model airplane :rolleyes:

I love and hate Lough boora. Why they put poxy art and a model airfield in the middle of it I will never know

At least if the art meant something maybe, like a sculpture of some red deer, or animals that roamed it 3000 years ago.(back on topic, I'm rambling)

I once watched a Doc where they were trying to re-home a jaguar in south america. the do-gooders in the end failed, and had to get the help of the hunters "as the hunters knew more about the habits of the jaguar then all those phd students did combined"

It's foolish of birdwatch Ireland not to look to game clubs & hunters for info. Hunters could probably point out every breeding pair, their range, offspring and their age

Yes I agree, Birdwatch Ireland could get good info from Hunters. There is alot of arrogance on both sides IMO. You get hunters who think birdwatchers are all a bunch of townies and no fvck all about wildlife. Then you get birdwatchers that think all hunters are just interested in blowing the heads off of animals.

LostCovey

I totally agree Feargal.

I came to birdwatching through shooting, and still know plenty of people in both camps, including individuals who are in both camps.

Birdwatchers and shooters have far more in common than a lot of other 'users' of the countryside.

The reason I raised the question of the continued legality of shooting Red Grouse on open unmanaged hills is that the shooters I know here in the west are visibly uncomfortable about the Red Grouse issue when I discuss it with them.

But they still bag an odd brace.

LostCovey

landkeeper

Originally Posted by Feargal as Luimneach
Go up to Lough Boora and beside the model airplane club is where you will see them. The best thing that flushes them out is a Hen Harrier


ah well you see it wouldn't actually as what happens with partridge and grouse when there is a bird of prey over head is that they lie low knowing full well if they take to the air it's game over

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

from kestrels to hen harriers by shooting them. And in the UK this falls under the catch-all description of 'keepering'.

/QUOTE]

And which is totally illegal in the UK and is rightly classed as serious wildlife crime. Scotland just had its worst year ever for such crime( it is now so grave that it threatens the future of viability of many Golden Eagle populations) to the extent that the Scottish justice minster has beefed up the police unit tackling it, along with increased fines and prison sentences.

PS: Mods, I think this discussion is threading on dangerous ground here as regards illegal activites that threaten endangered species in this country so maybe it should be wound up sooner rather than later:(

landkeeper

birdnuts WHY no-one is condoning the killing of birds of prey go back and read what lastcovey actually wrote not what you think was written
we are well aware that it is illegal and rightly so so where is the problem as you see it

Birdnuts

landkeeper wrote: »

birdnuts WHY no-one is condoning the killing of birds of prey go back and read what lastcovey actually wrote not what you think was written
we are well aware that it is illegal and rightly so so where is the problem as you see it

I wasn't directing it at LC but more at the tone of some of the discussion on this thread.

LostCovey

landkeeper wrote: »

birdnuts WHY no-one is condoning the killing of birds of prey go back and read what lastcovey actually wrote not what you think was written

Thanks Landkeeper, fair play.

I was actually pointing out the huge differences between here & the UK. We have a highly responsible shooting community in Ireland for the most part.

I felt I could raise the Red Grouse issue here mainly because it jars so much with that long-held perception.

LastCovey(!)

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

I wasn't directing it at LC but more at the tone of some of the discussion on this thread.

Well that's not totally fair either, Birdnuts because just as I was advocating nothing of the sort, neither was anyone else.

SECOND attempt to get this back on topic!

Why is it OK to shoot Red Grouse on open unmanaged hills in Ireland if they are on the brink of extinction?

LostCovey

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

Well that's not totally fair either, Birdnuts because just as I was advocating nothing of the sort, neither was anyone else.

SECOND attempt to get this back on topic!

Why is it OK to shoot Red Grouse on open unmanaged hills in Ireland if they are on the brink of extinction?

LostCovey

OK

Obviously a species that is on the Irish Red List should not be shot - case closed I'd say.!!

irish setter

simple answer is the heather in ireland is not managed and it can only support one or two breeding pair per square km. 90 % of all the new grouse produced in a year die if they are shot or not. the numbers shot don't don't impede on the 90%. in fact where gun clubs do a limited amount of heather management they do improve numbers but not by any great amount. also most heather that is burnt is for sheep grazing and the same areas tend to be burnt repeatedly so any new heather growth which is needed by young birds to survive is limited

bunny shooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Very rosemantic. Your shooting pals have landowners with big areas of open mountain, who will allow these boyos burn their land for a bottle of plonk and a a few freezer bags of game full of lead shot.

Yeah, right.

LostCovey

Yes they do. Why do you find this so hard to believe or understand ? Maybe because you don't live in rural Ireland and don't have a clue what you're talking about?

LostCovey wrote: »

I ignored the bit about pheasants because I thought its irrelevance was obvious.

Ignoring facts when they disprove your unfounded arguments is a very enlightened approach to conservation. green party policies are proof of this :rolleyes:

LostCovey wrote: »

I lambasted no-one, but bunny shooter claims that penniless do-gooders in Wexford are burning mountain heather to manage habitat for grouse, and the landowners allow this ecological incineration on their property for a mere offering of a bottle of chardonnay and a brace of pheasant's m'lud.

Where did I say Wexford?

These landowners are working class farming folk same as the lads they allow shoot on their land.

LostCovey wrote: »

I find that hard to believe, but maybe it is true. Great if it's true. A little rose-tinted I suspect.

You may find it hard to believe BUT it is true !

LostCovey wrote: »

Bunny shooter also claims that doing this is not managing a managed shoot. Well that is his opinion, I disagree, but that really is not germane to the discussion which is about shooting pressure on Red Grouse on hills with no habitat management or shooting control.

It is not a managed shoot. How can you possibly give or have an opinion on something happening somewhere and you don't know the details of either?

Sparks wrote: »

Lads, tone it down a little and keep it civil please. LostCovey, perhaps you should refamilarise yourself with the forum charter.

I'm also moving this thread to the hunting forum since that's what it's about.

A few of these Greenies are posting here and all they are doing is convincing me more and more that they haven't a clue about the reality of what's happening in rural Ireland. Maybe they should try living in it for a while instead of telling those of us who do how to.

Feargal as Luimneach

bunny shooter wrote: »

Yes they do. Why do you find this so hard to believe or understand ? Maybe because you don't live in rural Ireland and don't have a clue what you're talking about?



Ignoring facts when they disprove your unfounded arguments is a very enlightened approach to conservation. green party policies are proof of this :rolleyes:



Where did I say Wexford?

These landowners are working class farming folk same as the lads they allow shoot on their land.



You may find it hard to believe BUT it is true !



It is not a managed shoot. How can you possibly give or have an opinion on something happening somewhere and you don't know the details of either?



A few of these Greenies are posting here and all they are doing is convincing me more and more that they haven't a clue about the reality of what's happening in rural Ireland. Maybe they should try living in it for a while instead of telling those of us who do how to.

LostCovey is a farmer judging by his points, so I'd say he does know about the reality of living in rural Ireland.

jwshooter

im a avaid hunter as you all know ,i call it as i see it .

unless your are involved in a sustainable moor you have no business going shooting grouse ,fact .

i have no more to say on the matter .

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

A few of these Greenies are posting here and all they are doing is convincing me more and more that they haven't a clue about the reality of what's happening in rural Ireland. Maybe they should try living in it for a while instead of telling those of us who do how to.

Maybe you should re-read the charter Bunny. If someone's wrong, show them, explain what's right - that's fine. Telling them they should feck off because you know better; that's pig-ignorant and it's not on.

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

im a avaid hunter as you all know ,i call it as i see it .

unless your are involved in a sustainable moor you have no business going shooting grouse ,fact .

i have no more to say on the matter .

Agreed. They're a limited resource. My dad shot grouse in the Mournes in the fifties and sixties and the place was thronged with them then. I've walked the same moors and only ever put up a very small handful in a good few years. I'd never raise a gun to one there either. Would like to be involved in a project to increase their numbers though. Very special to see them these days.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Maybe you should re-read the charter Bunny.

I have. Nearly know it off by heart at this stage

Sparks wrote: »

If someone's wrong, show them, explain what's right - that's fine. Telling them they should feck off because you know better; that's pig-ignorant and it's not on.

You and me must be reading different posts 'cause I can't see how you came to that conclusion :rolleyes:

Oh ya .......... you're a townie too :P

Sparks

Yeah, a townie Kerryman who trips over rabbits in his lunchbreak. Just because the bed is in Dublin 1 doesn't mean diddly-squat about the inside of the person's head Bunny, you ought to know that by now.

DavyDee

jwshooter wrote: »

im a avaid hunter as you all know ,i call it as i see it .

unless your are involved in a sustainable moor you have no business going shooting grouse ,fact .

i have no more to say on the matter .

I could not agree with you there as extensive research in the UK and Scotland proves not shooting the grouse can be as much danger to any moor as over shooting, old hens and cocks become infertile and like all game birds are extremely territorial during spring and summer which prevent the fertile birds from breeding. I can guarantee we have all seen this even with old cock and hen pheasants!

If you know where there are grouse I personally would encourage you to burn a small area of the heather in early spring never any later, it doesnt have to be acres, half an acre is plenty to produce young heather low enough to the ground to sustain afew clutches of birds. Maybe leave it for a season if you know it wont be shot and repeat the burning and I guarantee you will be pleasantly surprised.

Straffan1979

There should be a total ban on the shooting of Red Grouse in Ireland- end of story. It would be a positive thing for shooting in Ireland if the push to do this came from the shooting organisations.
But in true Irish style we'll probably just end up with a picture of some clown holding the last brace posted on forums like this.

Dusty87

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, a townie Kerryman who trips over rabbits in his lunchbreak. Just because the bed is in Dublin 1 doesn't mean diddly-squat about the inside of the person's head Bunny, you ought to know that by now.

you dont hunt though, do ya?

Sparks

Nope. After tripping over them, I just send them on their way.

Then IWM shoots them and I make rabbit pot pie...

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Nope. After tripping over them, I just send them on their way.

Then IWM shoots them and I make rabbit pot pie...

Off topic, but how did that go by the way? The curry I made was pretty excellent.

Sparks

Didn't go so well I'm afraid, but that was down to me, not the rabbit - it needed more spice than I'd put in it (I think chilli would go quite well with it actually), and it was a bit stodgy and bland as a result.

Still have to work out that venison chilli recipe as well, now that I have my normal beef chilli recipe more or less sorted. I mean, it's venison and chilli is basicly a braised meat dish, so the two should go well together. And I still have some venison in the freezer to experiment with...