should there be cross border rules on game on this island?

Tackleberrywho

vegeta posted this earlier today.
Got me thinking, should there be an ALL ISLAND policy on game "ref policy on Bird flu , foot & Mouth, etc"


Bird lovers cry fowl as NI grouse hunt is on

SEÁN MAC CONNELL Agriculture Correspondent

A NUMBER of people in the Republic of Ireland want to bring an end to celebrating “The Glorious Twelfth” in Northern Ireland and for the guns to remain silent.
They are not into politics or religion but rather the conservation of one of the island’s most threatened bird species, the Red Grouse.
Yesterday, August 12th, saw the opening of the shooting season for grouse in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland but not in the Republic where wildfowlers have to wait until September 1st.
According to Dr Sinéad Cummins, who was involved in the largest ever study of the grouse here, the fact the season begins early in the North and not here has created difficulty in Border areas.
“While we would like to see grouse not being hunted at all because numbers are so low, we would like to see the authorities co-ordinate the opening of the season on both sides of the Border,” said Dr Cummins, who works with BirdWatch Ireland.
Most conservationists, she said, wanted the season to open on September 1st on both sides of the Border. She said most wildfowlers she knew no longer hunted grouse because of their declining numbers and were more into conserving them than shooting them.
“There has been a 50 per cent decline in the number of birds here over the past 40 years and we estimate there are only 4,200 birds left in the country,” she said.
She said this had been caused by loss of habitat, especially from overgrazing by sheep, turf cutting and other activities. The grouse is now confined to a few areas on the east coast, Donegal and west Mayo and is on the red or endangered list of birds, she said.
The grouse was very dependent on heather and its declining quality on the wetter bogs in the west had led to a fall in numbers.
She said bog fires had also harmed stocks because grouse were “single breeders” and would not attempt to breed again if the first nest was destroyed.
“Because it is still listed as a quarry species it has no real protection and it is time to move to save what is Ireland’s oldest bird

landkeeper

wildfowlers :eek: typical press article but i'd probably agree with removing the grouse from the quarry list IF numbers are that low. If there are only that number remaining then it would seem selfish to not give them at least temporary protection , that was done with brent geese in the uk and look at the population now

doyle61

i saw one last year on some ground that i shoot deer on. was talking to the farmer later that day and he was telling me that they used to be very plentyful years ago.....even up to 20 years ago. he said that the heather used to be set on fire (persume during the spring) and that the grouse trived on the young heather but because of forests being planted they cant set the heather on fire now

DR6.5

They were talking about the grouse on Mooney goes wild. I think you can listen back to the episode on the rte website.

One of the contributors asked if any of them had eaten grouse and Eanna Ni Lamhna said that they breed red leg grouse and was corrected that actually its red legged partridge.

Unless the ground is being managed properly and holds a good stock of grouse on it they should not be hunted.

Dr6.5

Feargal as Luimneach

landkeeper wrote: »

wildfowlers :eek: typical press article but i'd probably agree with removing the grouse from the quarry list IF numbers are that low. If there are only that number remaining then it would seem selfish to not give them at least temporary protection , that was done with brent geese in the uk and look at the population now

Protecting Grouse habitat would be more helpful to grouse than stopping shooting would be. Alot of Grouse populations in the country are now isolated/fragmented and alot of inbreeding taking place. Red Grouse are sedentary birds, so separated population will not mix (making inbreeding worse).The only place with populations of good healthy genetic diversity are in Wicklow (I think). There are plans to translocate birds from Wicklow to areas where the grouse are inbred, thus improving the genetic diversity of the birds:).
There is plenty of good habitat in Ireland for Brent geese:),but not the case for the grouse:(.

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Protecting Grouse habitat would be more helpful to grouse than stopping shooting would be. Alot of Grouse populations in the country are now isolated/fragmented and alot of inbreeding taking place. Red Grouse are sedentary birds, so separated population will not mix (making inbreeding worse).The only place with populations of good healthy genetic diversity are in Wicklow (I think). There are plans to translocate birds from Wicklow to areas where the grouse are inbred, thus improving the genetic diversity of the birds:).
There is plenty of good habitat in Ireland for Brent geese:),but not the case for the grouse:(.

there is a good population of grouse on the estate where i stalk , its down to one simple reason ( good management ) .

should the cormorant be taken off the red list now

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

there is a good population of grouse on the estate where i stalk , its down to one simple reason ( good management ) .

should the cormorant be taken off the red list now

Cormorant is on the amber list not the red list. What has the cormorant got to do with the Red Grouse?

What estate to you stalk?

Good management would help Red Grouse, as long as no Hen Harriers are harmed.

homerhop

Does the Slieve Bloom not still have a good population of grouse?

landkeeper

why is one bird more important than another there was /is a very famous grouse more in dumfrieshire that employed several keepers and had an vey good annual bag of grouse , management was second to none then the hen harriers moved in nice enviroment for them lots to eat etc etc etc
result it's no longer a shooting moor , no keepers employed there grouse stocks in decline all because one bird has more importance than another seems stupid to me

Feargal as Luimneach

landkeeper wrote: »

why is one bird more important than another there was /is a very famous grouse more in dumfrieshire that employed several keepers and had an vey good annual bag of grouse , management was second to none then the hen harriers moved in nice enviroment for them lots to eat etc etc etc
result it's no longer a shooting moor , no keepers employed there grouse stocks in decline all because one bird has more importance than another seems stupid to me

On grouse moors the grouse are at an artificially high number, it's no wonder they attract Hen Harriers. Hen Harriers and Red Grouse are in danger in Ireland. Both need protection. In areas where Grouse are threatened by all means control foxes, hooded crows, magpies but Hen Harriers should not be harmed

Feargal as Luimneach

homerhop wrote: »

Does the Slieve Bloom not still have a good population of grouse?

The results of the Birdwatch Ireland Red Grouse survey will be out soon.

Birdnuts

landkeeper wrote: »

result it's no longer a shooting moor , no keepers employed there grouse stocks in decline all because one bird has more importance than another seems stupid to me

Its not about one bird being more important than another - your talking about shootable surpluses that involve unnaturally large populations of Red Grouse that can generate big money for estate owners. In a natural setting Hen Harriers and Red Grouse live quiet happily together with grouse numbers at normal background levels as has been the case for thousands of years before obsessive attitudes towards gamekeeping became popular from the 18th centuary onwards - one of the main factors that drove so many birds of Prey to extinction in this country and the UK. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread the massive decline in grouse numbers in this country has been due to massive habitat destruction in upland areas from government subsidized overgrazing of sheep and mass afforestation with alien Sitka spruces which has devastated the population of many upland bird species, Hen Harriers and Red Grouse being but 2.:(

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

In areas where Grouse are threatened by all means control foxes, hooded crows, magpies but Hen Harriers should not be harmed

The ironic thing is that if we could get Golden Eagles back into our uplands, the problems game-keepers have with the likes of foxes and crows would be alot less severe since Eagles are major predators of these vermin:rolleyes:

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its not about one bird being more important than another - your talking about shootable surpluses that involve unnaturally large populations of Red Grouse that can generate big money for estate owners. In a natural setting Hen Harriers and Red Grouse live quiet happily together with grouse numbers at normal background levels as has been the case for thousands of years before obsessive attitudes towards gamekeeping became popular from the 18th centuary onwards - one of the main factors that drove so many birds of Prey to extinction in this country and the UK. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread the massive decline in grouse numbers in this country has been due to massive habitat destruction in upland areas from government subsidized overgrazing of sheep and mass afforestation with alien Sitka spruces which has devastated the population of many upland bird species, Hen Harriers and Red Grouse being but 2.:(

x2

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The results of the Birdwatch Ireland Red Grouse survey will be out soon.

bird watch ireland my ass .

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

On grouse moors the grouse are at an artificially high number, it's no wonder they attract Hen Harriers. Hen Harriers and Red Grouse are in danger in Ireland. Both need protection. In areas where Grouse are threatened by all means control foxes, hooded crows, magpies but Hen Harriers should not be harmed

hen harries are possibly the best killing machine in the wild , i seen one catching a wood cock one morning .

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

bird watch ireland my ass .

http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Ourwork/SurveysProjects/RedGrouse/tabid/123/Default.aspx
Have you something against Birdwatch Ireland?

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

hen harries are possibly the best killing machine in the wild , i seen one catching a wood cock one morning .

That's why there called birds of prey!
What's your point?

landkeeper

spend a bit of time and read this
or just go to the part about grouse and see the results on what was a healthy well managed moor

http://www.langholmproject.com/

doyle61

homerhop wrote: »

Does the Slieve Bloom not still have a good population of grouse?

thats where i stalk and as i said earlier the numbers have gone down big time according to a farmer i know up there.
on another note; about 3/4 years ago the NARGC was giving a grant to any gun clubs who could/would do a breeding program for grouse.......any success stories out there from any of ye about this?

Birdnuts

landkeeper wrote: »

spend a bit of time and read this
or just go to the part about grouse and see the results on what was a healthy well managed moor

http://www.langholmproject.com/

Looking at the conclusions here:www.langholmproject.com/jointraptorstudy.html - I'm getting mixed signals. The conclusion appears to be that grouse are most vulnerable during the lowest point in their natural population cycle when presumably they wouldn't be shot anyway. The moor in question also appears to have a problem with a well known grouse parasite. Also note that the authors conclude that results can vary with each particular moor. The 5 years study timespan also appears to be rather short for such a project to give definitive conclusions.


PS: It should be noted that Hen Harriers are on the verge of extinction in England with less then a dozen pairs left thanx to the illegal activities of a criminal element in the gamekeeping business. The situation is now so bad that this Spring, Hen Harrier nests in the Forest of Bowland(their last stronghold) had to have 24 hr protection from the police and RSPB.

Grizzly 45

Getting back OT.Should there be inter cooperation between NI and tthe ROI?Sure thing.IF we could get maybe a few more pertinent issues sorted out like;Renegade terroist groups,cross border smuggling,road saftey.Trivial things like that.More importantly would be in our situations;lets adapt the NI firearms laws, pistols no problem,IPSC no problem,a fast ,friendly and efficent firearms dept in the PSNI ,with unambigious firearms ownership laws.I'd be all for it,so long as the NI side is running it.:rolleyes::D

Birdnuts

doyle61 wrote: »

thats where i stalk and as i said earlier the numbers have gone down big time according to a farmer i know up there.
on another note; about 3/4 years ago the NARGC was giving a grant to any gun clubs who could/would do a breeding program for grouse.......any success stories out there from any of ye about this?

Saw 3 grouse there 10 years ago - This area has been heavily afforested over the last few decades with that awful Sitka Spruce so it doesn't surprise me that numbers are falling:(

Tackleberrywho

I've heard grouse in the Slieve blooms, never saw them though. Was trekking across it in heavy fog.

Forestry to my mind is the real death knell to them, as nothing grows on a conifer forest floor; just piles of pine needles

Grizzly 45

Plus1 on that Tackle.Can never understand why these blocks of sikta spruce is never thinned out ,and abit of light let into the block to encourage wildlifeor new plant life.
Was a big fire last winter up here on Woodcock Hill near Limerick last Winter/Spring,belive it was deliberate.It did have the odd grouse or two,will be intresting to see if this actually will encourage the pouplation to expand,as it burned off a load of dead heather and trash plants.
Personally I think the biggest problem grouse have here is non managed moors in any shape and abysmal Springs and Summers,which prevent the larvae hatching on time to feed the grouse chicks when they need it the most.That and the rain just kills them off