Ladies: How would you react if your husband/boyfriend turned out to be transgender?

Links234

yeah, a subject that's extremely close to my heart
I've been talking a lot on after hours on transgender related topics when they pop, but mostly it was just defending my position, defending transgender people, and I want to ask something different now and not get into the whole debate over whether a trans person is 'really' the gender they identify as, or the sex they were assigned at birth. that's what a lot of those threads end up debating anyway, so I want to avoid that. also I wanted a female perspective on this one, and a response that I'm sure will be a lot more mature than the usual after hours one.

I got the book She's Not There: A Life In Two Genders by Jennifer Finney Boylan recently, and I absolutely love it, I'm nearly finished reading it. it was a bit hard to get, I eventually had to buy it second hand from one of the sellers on Amazon, many of them weren't shipping to Ireland for some reason, so it took a while. but it was well worth it, it's really a wonderful book and I'm so happy I got it.

the thing about it is, Jennifer finally transitioned from male to female when she was in her forties, and after she had married her wife and had two sons. there's a part of the book where she says how she thought at a young age that love could "cure" her of her need to become a woman. It seems a pretty common theme that a male-to-female transsexual will try to deny who they are, and in doing so, will settle down, get married and maybe even have a family. I'm so thankful that for Jennifer, her kids and her wife were very accepting, and there's a line in the book that really touched me, where one of her children says "our daddy's a boygirl but we still love him"

I'm incredibly happy for her, because transgender people's lives can be filled with so much tragedy, they often lose everything. so it's wonderful reading about her life, and that she's really, really very lucky.

anyway like, it seems very common for male to female transsexuals to get married before they transition. Julia Serano, author of the book Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman On Sexism And The Scapegoating Of Femininity, she got married before she transitioned. Helen Boyd is another author who wrote two books on how the man she married became a woman. I know of plenty of other transgender women online who got married before they transitioned, and I'm really glad that a lot of them are still happily married. it can often happen that they'll have horrible breakups

but, for me, I'm actually pretty happy that I'm single, because I can't help feeling that it's unfair to marry someone and keep that kind of secret from them. it's like, I won't even date anyone right now, because in the past it's been horribly awkward and when I don't want to have sex, a girl can't help but think there's something wrong with her, and that's just not fair on her. I know that a lot of women do come to terms with these things, but it's still a horrible strain on the relationship that if I was dating a woman right now, I really don't want to put her through that.

god knows I deeply want to get married and have kids some day, but I would want her to know the person she's getting involved with every step of the way, and I would want her to love me for who I am, not who she thinks I am.

so, I'm wondering, what do you ladies think?
If your boyfriend or your husband confided in you that they always felt that they were female, that they couldn't fight it any longer and needed to transition, would you or could you still love them? is your love for your partner strong enough to keep you together? maybe don't answer right away, but have a think about it. maybe think about your current partner and ask yourself if you feel strongly enough about them, that you would still feel the same way, if they did come out to you as transgender?

think carefully about it.
thanks

The Big Red Button

Links234 wrote: »

so, I'm wondering, what do you ladies think?
If your boyfriend or your husband confided in you that they always felt that they were female, that they couldn't fight it any longer and needed to transition, would you or could you still love them? is your love for your partner strong enough to keep you together? maybe don't answer right away, but have a think about it. maybe think about your current partner and ask yourself if you feel strongly enough about them, that you would still feel the same way, if they did come out to you as transgender?

I would feel incredibly hurt and angry.

As you know yourself, Links, you don't just "become" transgender overnight. If my partner was hiding such a massive part of who he was for so long, I would feel betrayed, in a way, as though he didn't trust or respect me enough to share that with me. Now I'm well aware that it's a very complex issue, and from an intellectual point of view I probably shouldn't feel that way, but from an emotional point of view that's how it would hit me. A relationship is nothing without honesty and trust.

For me, it wouldn't be a question of whether our love was enough to keep us together. To be honest, I would end the relationship immediately - at least temporarily. Not just for myself, but to give him time to sort himself out. I really think I would, even if we were married and if there were children involved. It's such a complex, confusing situation to begin with - in my opinion, the last thing you would need is a relationship confusing things even more. I would do everything that I possibly could to help him as a friend, but I would definitely need a lot of time out to completely reassess the whole relationship before I would even consider whether getting back with him could be an option.

I'm not saying I would stop loving him ... but your sexuality is a massive part of who you are. I don't believe that you are defined by your sexuality, but for me to go from having a boyfriend to having a girlfriend ... essentially becoming a lesbian myself?! I'm very happy to hear that it worked out for the couples that you mentioned, but it would be a massive deal for me. While I'm sure that, once I got over the initial shock, I would always want him to be a big part of my life ... I just can't see how we could make the relationship work anymore.

Xiney

Yeah, emotionally I wouldn't feel good about it. I'd feel betrayed.

Also, I can't help but think that it would end our marriage as such - I can't see myself being attracted to a woman, despite the fact that I'm married to her and was attracted to her as a man. I love my husband's manlyness - it's a huge part of my attraction to him. If he were to lose that, regardless of whether he was the "same person" personality wise... I still don't think it would work. I have to admit I'd probably be loathe to even try to love my husband as a woman.

Links234

chatterpillar wrote: »

As you know yourself, Links, you don't just "become" transgender overnight. If my partner was hiding such a massive part of who he was for so long, I would feel betrayed, in a way, as though he didn't trust or respect me enough to share that with me. Now I'm well aware that it's a very complex issue, and from an intellectual point of view I probably shouldn't feel that way, but from an emotional point of view that's how it would hit me. A relationship is nothing without honesty and trust.

Thanks very much for an honest response Chatterpillar

but about point of honesty and trust, a lot of transgender people can be in very deep denial, and would bury that part of themselves so deep and not even admit it to themselves. there was a time when I wouldn't admit to myself I was transgender, and it took me a long time to find out why I felt the way I did and to come to terms with it. it can be like a repressed memory, something you don't even consciously think about, but is still there.

someone doesn't just become transgender overnight, but it's very possible that someone could enter into a relationship not even knowing this about themselves. or the thing about gender dysphoria is that it just grows stronger over time, and someone could easily manage it at the beginning of a relationship, but then further down the line it just reaches breaking point.

it's definitely a complex issue, but a person in this situation might have been honest and trusted the person they were with, never intended to hide anything from them, and yet still turn out to be transgender.

but I still couldn't blame anyone for feeling hurt or angry or shocked or betrayed over the situation

chatterpillar wrote: »

I don't believe that you are defined by your sexuality, but for me to go from having a boyfriend to having a girlfriend ... essentially becoming a lesbian myself?!

well, I would say that if you've been mainly attracted to men, and found yourself still attracted to this person as a woman, it could make you bisexual. like, you'd still be attracted to men

but I think that's the thing, it's not just an issue of honesty, but asking someone to completely reevaluate their sexuality as well.. that's an awful big thing to ask of someone

Ectoplasm

I would be devestated. For me, it would make me reevaluate our entire relationship and I would question whether he ever loved me at all. That may seem harsh, but I know I would feel betrayed, and wonder if the person I loved ever really existed or was everything a facade.

If I was married, I think I'd feel somewhat cheated too - when you get married you generally have a vision of what your life together will be, however vague, and I would feel the loss of 'what might have been'.
I don't have kids, so I really can't say how this would change things for me.

Being honest, I just cannot see myself staying in a sexual relationship in this situation. It may sound very selfish, but I feel that I entered into a relationship with a man and if he changes his mind about being a man, I don't see why I should have to reevaluate or alter my sexuality. (Oversimplified I know).

I've only ever thought about transgender issues in an abstract way and I'd defend everyone's right to be who they are, so I was quite surprised to realise how emotionally I'd react in this situation. Interesting question, thanks Links.

Malari

It's the ultimate deal-breaker isn't it, really? Does the fact that the person changed sex not change who they are attracted to in your examples above OP? Does a man, married to a woman, change gender and then become a lesbian/bisexual? I guess there's no single answer, but for me it's more than a step too far. Hurtful, and I have to say a little selfish to get involved in a long term relationship when you don't fully know how you feel about your own sexuality.

Black Swan

Links234 wrote: »

If your boyfriend or your husband confided in you that they always felt that they were female, that they couldn't fight it any longer and needed to transition, would you or could you still love them?

If we had been together a long time, and they all of a sudden told me about these hidden feelings of wanting to become female, I would question if I really knew them in the first place. Would I still love them afterwords? Perhaps, but in a very different way. I still might love them as a person, but I doubt that I would be still "in love" with them in a romantic way.

Kooli

Links234 wrote: »

is your love for your partner strong enough to keep you together?

I have to say the above question really provoked a reaction in me!

If my partner told me he felt he was really a woman, and wanted to transition, I would be absolutely devastated and completely heartbroken, and I would leave him. But I don't like the implication that that means my love isn't 'strong enough'.

I can't will myself to become bisexual. And I can't persuade myself to love someone different to the one I married. That is not any reflection on the strength of my love for the man I have chosen. If he is not going to be that person anymore, then that is what has changed, not my love.

krudler

+1, for one person to decide they arent the correct gender and want to change, its in no way whatsoever up to the other partner to "love them enough". Its utterly selfish for one person to change gender then expect the other person to stick with them no matter what, they're not the same person anymore.

Ickle Magoo

I suspect it would spell the end of our marriage. I fell in love with a man and if that man isn't happy as the person I fell in love with and never told me and let me fall in love with him, I don't think I could forgive that, neither the dishonesty nor the feeling I'd been duped. I think I'd be angry more than anything else - and feel cheated out of the relationship they'd willingly signed up to and made me believe we had.

I don't fancy women so I can't imagine still being sexually attracted to my husband as a woman regardless of what my feeling were for him/her as a person, anyway, so that would just be the final nail in the coffin.

LittleBook

I think there's a gigantic difference between someone like you who "would want her to know the person she's getting involved with every step of the way, and I would want her to love me for who I am, not who she thinks I am" and my partner of many years finally coming out as transgender.

If, as you say, it's true it's very common for male to female transsexuals to get married before they transition, I believe (or maybe I just want to believe) that that's because they've been in denial or trying to "cure" themselves.

I can believe that when you've been married to someone for twenty years and have had children together that, if the coming out was handled carefully, a strong bond of love and friendship could still exist ... but "happily married"? Well I certainly can't see it working out that way for me.

ash23

I think I'd feel a lot of things. Used. Shocked. Angry that our marriage/relationship had basically been a sham (and in fairness with something that life changing, it would feel like a sham).

I also seriously doubt that I would be able to stay in the relationship. I am straight. I like men. I can't imagine being attracted to a woman or a transgender woman.
Sex for me would be out the window. And with that, the "relationship".

If I were to sign up to a relationship with a man then that is what I would want. And if that were no longer on the table then what was being offered would just not be enough for me.

Edited to add : I'm a bit unsure about the attraction aspect. If a man were transgender, would he not be sexually attracted to men? So how would that work? Forgive my ignorance on the issue, it's not really something I'm familiar with.

baby and crumble

Coming at this from a slightly different angle- I'm a lesbian and am in a long term relationship with my girlfriend.

I've been sitting here reading this and thinking 'hmmm... what if she, all this time, has been transgendered?" What if she turned around to me one day and told me that she wanted to transition, and was becoming her true self, a man?

I think I'd have a lot of the same reactions as the rest of you guys. I am very comfortable with my sexuality, and I find women beautiful, and all the rest. I'm simply not attracted to men- and in Ireland during my teenage years, it wasn't from lack of trying, trust me :rolleyes:! I think if I met a woman who had transitioned from being born male into being female, it wouldn't bother me- she's a woman, I like women, so no problem. But the heart of it lies at the little nuances that make the person you love that person. Yes, it's personality, but everyone has to be sexually attracted to the person they love. And whether we like it or not, our gender is ingrained in our personality- I'm a woman, so my personality has 'womanly' things about it- that is, I like shoes and bags, and I can get quite emotional, and I'm not great at solving logic puzzles. (I know, some stereotypes in there, but they come from somewhere!!!)

Now, the things I love about my partner includes her womanly-ness, the things she does that are feminine, because well, I'm a lesbian so I like girls. I like their curves, their emotional openness, and the way they smell. (I feel slightly weird here saying 'they' since I'm one too, but you know what I mean!!!) Just like straight women like men because of some manly traits, like big shoulders, stubble and well, the way they smell!

I'm not attracted to manly-ness, at all. So in short, I think it would be very difficult to be attracted to my partner if she transitioned, because of that reason. I may still love her, and I'm sure that she would stay a huge part of my life, but I don't think it would be in a romantic or sexual way, not because I would have felt 'tricked' or like it was a sham, or anything, but because, well... I don't think I'd be attracted any more.

Malari

zoegh wrote: »

I think if I met a woman who had transitioned from being born male into being female, it wouldn't bother me- she's a woman, I like women, so no problem.

This is interesting and it's something I meant to mention in my initial post. Because most answers have dealt with the person a transgender has become, what if your partner was previously a different sex...would that bother anyone?

As shallow as it sounds, I think it would bother me if I found out my boyfriend was once a woman. (It sounds ridiculous because he'd make a really bad woman :D) I mean apart from the dishonesty involved in not telling me. Or would it be something I should let stay in the past? I'm with a person I love now and what they were before doesn't matter? I think it would be a hard thing to overcome.

Ickle Magoo

I assumed it was only about partners wishing to transition because I think it would be impossible for me not to notice that my partner had breasts surgically removed and metoidioplasty/phalloplasty...

baby and crumble

Well more a case of, what if the person you were dating, or were in a relationship with told you that they were born a different gender to the way they look now? i know that's slightly off topic from Links' original post, but it's relevant, I think... At what point does it matter?

Obviously if you were with someone, in love with them, and they told you that basically, they'd no longer look like the person you fell in love with, that'd be very weird, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But what if you've only know them as a man, for example, and maybe when you're booking holidays or something he decides he needs to tell you that on his passport, he's down as Mary... What then? You've fallen for him, as a man, would the knowledge of his previous 'state' bother you?

ash23

zoegh wrote: »

Well more a case of, what if the person you were dating, or were in a relationship with told you that they were born a different gender to the way they look now? i know that's slightly off topic from Links' original post, but it's relevant, I think... At what point does it matter?

Obviously if you were with someone, in love with them, and they told you that basically, they'd no longer look like the person you fell in love with, that'd be very weird, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But what if you've only know them as a man, for example, and maybe when you're booking holidays or something he decides he needs to tell you that on his passport, he's down as Mary... What then? You've fallen for him, as a man, would the knowledge of his previous 'state' bother you?

It would bother me. Mainly because they kept it from me long enough for me to fall for them.
I've a kid. And I'd be decieving someone if I dated them for a long time and then told them about my child. Some people have a problem with it and it's their perogative to feel that way. Same as finding out your partner was married before. Either of those things would be fine with me once the guy was upfront. To me, keeping it quiet is lying and I wouldn't want to be in a relationship like that.


If I met someone and wasn't in love with them, was just getting to know them and they said they'd been born a woman, honestly, I probably wouldn't date them again. It just isn't something I'd be able to put aside. I'm fairly liberal but I don't think I'd be open minded enough to be in a relationship with someone who was transgender. It would be too complicated for me. The whole marriage, babies thing wouldn't be straightforward and I'd have a problem with that.

Chinafoot

Kooli wrote: »

I have to say the above question really provoked a reaction in me!

If my partner told me he felt he was really a woman, and wanted to transition, I would be absolutely devastated and completely heartbroken, and I would leave him. But I don't like the implication that that means my love isn't 'strong enough'.

I can't will myself to become bisexual. And I can't persuade myself to love someone different to the one I married. That is not any reflection on the strength of my love for the man I have chosen. If he is not going to be that person anymore, then that is what has changed, not my love.

I had a similar reaction. This is probably going to come across as offensive/too black and white/controversial or whatever, and I really don't mean to offend. In these situations the transgender person is seen as "the victim". Even here the question is "would your love be strong enough". It's not about my love being strong enough, its about my love being taken from me by someone who was lying to me about who they are on such a fundamental level. I am the victim. Not the transgender person. Me.

I accept your point about the individual being in denial, but you know what? Their lack of courage and responsibilty for themselves is not my problem and nor should it be. By all means, lie to yourself but don't dare abuse my trust and love in that way and then expect me to support your decision to change your gender and our relationship. I am not attracted to women. I'm not going to suddenly decide that breasts and vagina turn me on because my previously male partner is now a woman.

I feel sorry for the married woman in the OPs example. She has lost her husband. Her children have lost their father. Yes its wonderful for the transgendered person that their family has been so accepting, but they do not have the same relationship that they had before. Its not something I could ever do and its not something I think anyone should be expected to do.

Ickle Magoo

zoegh wrote: »

Well more a case of, what if the person you were dating, or were in a relationship with told you that they were born a different gender to the way they look now? i know that's slightly off topic from Links' original post, but it's relevant, I think... At what point does it matter?

Obviously if you were with someone, in love with them, and they told you that basically, they'd no longer look like the person you fell in love with, that'd be very weird, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But what if you've only know them as a man, for example, and maybe when you're booking holidays or something he decides he needs to tell you that on his passport, he's down as Mary... What then? You've fallen for him, as a man, would the knowledge of his previous 'state' bother you?

If I'm dating them, in a relationship or gotten to the stage I've fallen for them then it's still not being honest, is it? It's still being deliberately misleading and choosing to keep quiet about an issue that may well have a huge impact on whether someone wanted to date or have a relationship - I'd be especially hacked-off if they are only honest because I'm going to have to physically see them & I'll start asking questions.

In saying that, I have no idea how I'd react if they are now the sex I like and I find them both physically and personality-wise attractive.

LenaClaire

I have actually lived this experience but we only dated for a few months before he told me he was going to under go transition so it wasn't like it had been hidden for years and years.

I think it is fairly easy to say that I was surprised at the announcement but I did not judge or condemn, I just said I needed some time to processes the new information. We ended up breaking up but to this day we are still really good friends and I tried to help her as much as possible through transition.

baby and crumble

it is a tough one. I do agree with the previous posters who said that the whole 'is your love strong enough' thing is a bit emotive- It's a bit like saying love can conquer all, and sexuality isn't important because you fall in love with the person not the gender, blah blah blah... I fall inl ove with women because i'm attracted to them. I've never really been attracted to a man, so while i'd still love the personality, i don't know if i could be attracted to them. I think actually that's something of note, there's really 2 issues here there's love, and there's attraction, underlain with the idea of trustworthiness.

I think I'd be fine with the love part, but it would stop being romantic love, and be just a love for the person, like the love I have for my friends. Trustworthiness... I think I'd be ok on, maybe because I've been through the process of coming to terms with my sexuality, and for self preservation and safety I've had to lie about it to some people, allowing them to presume I'm straight. it was never done out of spite, it was mostly done out of fear that I'd be ostracised. But I can 100% understand how some people would feel very different about that. And as for the attraction... I find it hard to believe I'd still find my partner attractive if they were male. And no matter how much some people like to be 'above' the perceived shallowness of loving people because of their looks, the simple fact is you 're not going to want a full, adult romantic and sexual relationship with someone you don't fancy.

yvonnekdublin

You have to but His Name is Rebecca, a new Irish book coming out in September on the life of transgender Rebecca De Havalland, AKA Ross Tallon. It is a fantastic story with a lot of tears and laughter along the way and an amazing ending!!!!!:)

WesternNight

I think, for me, the liklihood that the relationship would remain the same would be nil. I know that for all intents and purposes it would be the same person, but it would be like a death. The person you knew and fell in love with, you'd never see them again. There would, physically, be a new person and, physically, the old person would be gone. I can only imagine how difficult that would be to get my head around.

So, it wouldn't matter whether or not my love, or anyone else's love, stayed the same. The relationship would be different. Once everyone accepts the situation for what it is I could probably be friends with them again. But it would be on a purely platonic level.

Xiney

Ok so my experiences with transgendered people are limited to two women who transitioned from men. So I have no experience of men who used to be women. And also two people isn't the biggest sample size.

But anyway, my biggest issue with dating a man who transitioned from being a woman would be a necessity that they had other interests, other than being transgender. I realise that when something is such a HUGE change and that you feel discrimination every day that it is going to be at the forefront of your mind. But if I'm honest, the two transgendered people I've known (not just over the internet) have been REALLY boring after about 15 minutes. It seems it was all they had to talk about. And honestly? Not that interested. Let's talk about films maybe. Yes... I have seen Hedwig and the Angry Inch. sigh.

And yeah. I want to reiterate that I know two people is practically nothing. It's like saying I don't like Martians because I know two Martians and they're annoying. I just can NOT believe how obsessed they both were, independently, of their own transgenderness. Literally had NOTHING else to talk about.



So as long as the guy (who used to be a girl) wasn't like that... and also looked like a man thus allowing me to be attracted to him... I like to think I'm open minded enough to give it a shot.

Das Kitty

Yeah I think I'd be a bit confused having known each other for so so long and never having an inkling. I suspect in cases where this happens people may notice signs that might make sense when the truth comes out.

You know though, I think I'd get over it. It's him I love not his gender. Provided his priorities towards his family were the same I'd support his transition. It's hard to know with a hypothetical how it would pan out but I wouldn't leave him if he turned out to be a woman.

The Big Red Button

Das Kitty wrote: »

Yeah I think I'd be a bit confused having known each other for so so long and never having an inkling. I suspect in cases where this happens people may notice signs that might make sense when the truth comes out.

You know though, I think I'd get over it. It's him I love not his gender. Provided his priorities towards his family were the same I'd support his transition. It's hard to know with a hypothetical how it would pan out but I wouldn't leave him if he turned out to be a woman.

Thank you! It's great to hear a different point of view on this, because it is such an interesting topic!

But, if he became a woman, as I said previously it means that his partner will need to "become" a lesbian (well, bisexual) if the relationship is to continue. How would you feel about that?!

That's the big thing for me. I'm just not sexually attracted to women, and I never have been. If my fiance were to become a woman, well then he's just not the man that I fell in love with. Just thinking of it ... no. I could not be in a relationship with a woman, I really couldn't.

Feelings can't just be "turned off" ... I would still be in love with the guy same as ever before ... but the thing is, that "guy" wouldn't exist any more.

I honestly do think that, if I were in the situation, I would get over the hurt and I would support them in every way possible and I would still love them. But no longer in a romantic/sexual way. And, for me, to pretend so for the sake of "family" would be a lie.

apsalar

This is a really interesting question. I have a lot of admiration for the ladies and men that transgender. It has to be such a diffcult process to go through, I wonder where they get the strength and courage from.

If it happened to me: two situations- if it were my boyfriend, well, yes, I would feel rejected, and quote heart-broken. If were were truly friends (which he would have to be for me to fall in-love), I would feel hurt that he would want a life in which I couldn't romantically be involved (am just not attracted to women), but would also appreciate that he would still want my friendship, and of course, would still love him. A pair and a new vag wouldn't change the person I fell in love with. But love comes in many colours and I'd probably just feel really cheated that the man I wanted has lost his outer packaging, so to speak. I would hope that she would still be a part of my life though.

If he were my husband and we had children, have to be honest, I would be furious. I know the journey of transition can be long and take many roads of denial, pain, you name it, but I think it would be extremely selfish to take children along that road. I don't know if I could comfortably live with the idea that the father of my children would take me and the kids along one road when they really wanted another all along. It wouldn't hav anything to do with acceptance, it would have to be the deceit behind it. He would have been deceiving everyone, from me to the kds, and mostly himself. It's a hard one to explain. I can see pretty much how a person can try to conform by getting married, having girlfriends, etc,..but I just don't think that that should extend to creating complications that can really be avoided (the kids)...I don't think I expressed myself very well...

Links234

Hey everyone
thanks very much for all your responses on this

I wanted to ask this, because I think that when this kind of question comes up on a forum like After Hours, it's always from a male perspective, "what if your girlfriend used to be a guy" and that kinda thing. and I don't think that's really fair to women, because it seems to me that they're often in the position of finding out the person they love needs to change. to me, that's a much bigger thing than what a guy would face, discovering his girlfriend is transgender. it's a bigger strain for the woman, and to me, it looks like this side of things is glossed over when that's what happens more often I think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MhpkAUyMo

Kooli wrote: »

I have to say the above question really provoked a reaction in me!

If my partner told me he felt he was really a woman, and wanted to transition, I would be absolutely devastated and completely heartbroken, and I would leave him. But I don't like the implication that that means my love isn't 'strong enough'.

sorry about the implication, I guess I can't help but talk in emotive terms
when I talk to some people online, who are in the same situation that I describe and stay together, the answer was that they still loved each other, or that their love was stronger than this. I don't really mean to make the implication there, but I'm just being honest to people's experiences and what held them together as they described

krudler wrote: »

+1, for one person to decide they arent the correct gender and want to change, its in no way whatsoever up to the other partner to "love them enough". Its utterly selfish for one person to change gender then expect the other person to stick with them no matter what, they're not the same person anymore.

I kinda have to disagree or call you up on this point.

I don't believe it's selfish at all, or that a person can decide this. that implies a choice, which I don't feel it is. there's a part in the book She's Not There, where Jennifer talks about having seen different therapists, one woman said after a number of sessions that yes, you are a transsexual and you can go on to lead a very happy life as a woman. but at the time she didn't want that, didn't go back to see that therapist any more. all the time I get this sense of her searching for something that would allow her to just be happy and live as a man, and that having to transition into a woman was the last thing she wanted and she would have done anything to avoid that, but in the end couldn't.

selfishness to me, implies a choice. like, if a man decides to buy a sportscar for himself without even speaking to his wife about it, that's selfish.

ash23 wrote: »

Edited to add : I'm a bit unsure about the attraction aspect. If a man were transgender, would he not be sexually attracted to men? So how would that work? Forgive my ignorance on the issue, it's not really something I'm familiar with.

well, a trans woman (a woman who was born male) can be lesbian, and there are a lot of lesbian or bisexual transwomen. someone's gender identity is different to their sexual orientation.

I've never been attracted to men

Xiney wrote: »

I just can NOT believe how obsessed they both were, independently, of their own transgenderness. Literally had NOTHING else to talk about.

you know this is something I can see in myself
even starting this thread, I thought "jesus girl, are you interested in talking about nothing else?"

as I understand it, it's really just a phase. these issues are important to me, because I'm going though it myself, so this is what's constantly playing on my mind. I am stressed about how things go with the psychologist, I'm terrified of how some of my friends will react when I tell them, utterly concerned about everything that's to come for me. I really, really can't help it.

But what I know from experience is that when people just settle in to their transition and the whole thing stops becoming an issue and stops preoccupying them. like, they're passed that now, and they don't want to talk about it any more. I know one girl online who I used to chat to a lot, but she's just really not interested in talking about anything trans related any more, you know, she just wants to get on with her life, she's just a regular girl now.

I think I'll be very, very happy myself once I'm passed all this and it's all behind me.

Das Kitty wrote: »

Yeah I think I'd be a bit confused having known each other for so so long and never having an inkling. I suspect in cases where this happens people may notice signs that might make sense when the truth comes out.

You know though, I think I'd get over it. It's him I love not his gender. Provided his priorities towards his family were the same I'd support his transition. It's hard to know with a hypothetical how it would pan out but I wouldn't leave him if he turned out to be a woman.

Thanks for that response Das Kitty

just, thanks

Chinafoot

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's him I love not his gender.

But a person's gender plays an enormous role in who they are. I think it's naive to think that it would be the same person in a new body.

Links234 wrote: »

I kinda have to disagree or call you up on this point.

I don't believe it's selfish at all, or that a person can decide this. that implies a choice, which I don't feel it is. there's a part in the book She's Not There, where Jennifer talks about having seen different therapists, one woman said after a number of sessions that yes, you are a transsexual and you can go on to lead a very happy life as a woman. but at the time she didn't want that, didn't go back to see that therapist any more. all the time I get this sense of her searching for something that would allow her to just be happy and live as a man, and that having to transition into a woman was the last thing she wanted and she would have done anything to avoid that, but in the end couldn't.

selfishness to me, implies a choice. like, if a man decides to buy a sportscar for himself without even speaking to his wife about it, that's selfish.

Is it selfish to want to make the change? No, because like homosexuality I don't believe there is a choice involved. Is it selfish to get yourself into a relationship, possibly involving marriage and children, then decide you want to make the change *and* expect your partner to continue to support you? Absolutely. The choice there is getting into the relationship. And I'm sorry but "being in denial" is no excuse for that level of deception, which is essentially what it is.

Posy

If I met a guy and had a couple of dates and then he told me he had been born a woman I would want to keep seeing him and I hope it wouldn't effect the progression of the relationship.
If I was married for years I could not accept my other half wanting to become a woman. I thought being transgender was something you're 'born with,' so I'd wonder why he had kept this from me for so many years. I imagine I would feel lied to and betrayed. And, to be honest, pretty embarrassed- how would I tell my mother that my husband is becoming a woman!? I'd feel like a laughing stock- "how did she not know!?" I also could not continue being attracted to him after he's become a her. I'm simply not attracted to women and could not contemplate a sexual relationship with a female. Even if i did continue to stand by and love my husband, all physical attraction would be gone.

Posy

Chinafoot wrote: »

But a person's gender plays an enormous role in who they are. I think it's naive to think that it would be the same person in a new body.

Even if it was the exact same person in a female body, I would not be sexually attracted to them any longer. And sexual attraction plays a big part in relationships. Like the transgender person, it's not my choice. I am attracted to men. I am a heterosexual. I cannot change who I am and it would be unfair to be made to feel selfish for continuing to be the same person as I was on my wedding day. I have been the honest one throughout this hypothetical relationship. Why should I change because my husband suddenly wants to? I shouldn't and probably couldn't.

Links234

Chinafoot wrote: »

But a person's gender plays an enormous role in who they are. I think it's naive to think that it would be the same person in a new body.

I don't really think why it shouldn't be the same person?

god, I don't want to fundamentally change who I am as a person when I transition. I think I'm going to GROW as a person, definitely, but I will still be the same person with the likes and dislikes and sense of humour and personality. the same geeky comic book nerd who loves 80's movies and star trek and rammstein and everything else. just that hopefully in a year from now, I'll be a happier, more confident version of me with breasts

but on the other hand, everybody grows and changes over time. who I am today is not the same as I was 10 years ago, or 5 years ago or 2 years ago. I'm sure that you're not exactly the same person you were either, but that you've grown as a person over the years too.

the sad thing is, a lot of women find that they man they're with today is not the same man they've married. he's changed as a person too.

Chinafoot wrote: »

And I'm sorry but "being in denial" is no excuse for that level of deception, which is essentially what it is.

I can't agree

I would say that if I entered into a relationship with a woman now and didn't tell her about my plans to transition, then I would absolutely be deceiving her. but I have been in plenty of relationships with women before, and although I've always felt something was off about me, I didn't particular see myself in the future as a woman. I just didn't know, because I couldn't figure out what those feelings were at the time, they weren't as clear as they are now. so when I was in a relationship with a woman, I did not lie to her, and I did not consciously deceive her, I simply loved her and wanted to be with her.

WesternNight

Links234 wrote: »

I don't really think why it shouldn't be the same person?

Look, it's really hard for any of us to properly understand the feelings and emotions and even the entire reality of what something like this would be. Because we're not going through it. You are, so of course you're coming at this from a different angle than we are.

Intellectually I know it would be the same person. The same brain and the same thoughts and the same memories. But the package that person comes in would be changed. If my boyfriend or husband were to tell me that inside they were a woman and subsequently transitioned to a woman, the whole "boyfriend/husband" aspect that I always knew them as would be gone. Because they would be no longer a man on the outside. Intellectually I would eventually be able to get my head around that, but emotionally and visually it would be as if they'd transformed into something I would have to get to know all over again. Because, if I'd known nothing about it until years after meeting them, then it would be exactly that. I'd have to get to know a whole part of themselves that I never had a clue about. And that's pretty major for anyone to handle, I think.

Chinafoot

Links234 wrote: »

I don't really think why it shouldn't be the same person?

god, I don't want to fundamentally change who I am as a person when I transition. I think I'm going to GROW as a person, definitely, but I will still be the same person with the likes and dislikes and sense of humour and personality. the same geeky comic book nerd who loves 80's movies and star trek and rammstein and everything else. just that hopefully in a year from now, I'll be a happier, more confident version of me with breasts

You can't ignore the part society plays in who we are as people based on gender. Being a man is different to being a woman. Your interests would of course remain the same but I don't believe your behaviour would. Your clothes would be different, your hair, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you interact with people. Sure you can argue that you were always feminine but that wont be the case for everyone transitioning from a man to a woman. You seem to be looking at this solely from your point of view - a transgendered woman who is a lesbian. We're looking at it from our perspective.

As myself and others have already said, you can't change your sexual orientation. I love my partner and a very big part of that is his gender. I am attracted to him because he is a man. If e were to become a woman I would no longer be attracted to him. I personally believe it is naive to think that "love" of the person can overcome sexuality.

Links234 wrote: »

but on the other hand, everybody grows and changes over time. who I am today is not the same as I was 10 years ago, or 5 years ago or 2 years ago. I'm sure that you're not exactly the same person you were either, but that you've grown as a person over the years too.

the sad thing is, a lot of women find that they man they're with today is not the same man they've married. he's changed as a person too.

I'm sorry but thats a ridiculous comparison. Changing as you get older is not the same as changing something as fundamental as your gender. For you, you might see it as "growing as a person" and good for you. The partner who fell in love with the man may not see it that way.

Links234 wrote: »

I can't agree

I would say that if I entered into a relationship with a woman now and didn't tell her about my plans to transition, then I would absolutely be deceiving her. but I have been in plenty of relationships with women before, and although I've always felt something was off about me, I didn't particular see myself in the future as a woman. I just didn't know, because I couldn't figure out what those feelings were at the time, they weren't as clear as they are now. so when I was in a relationship with a woman, I did not lie to her, and I did not consciously deceive her, I simply loved her and wanted to be with her.

Personally I would argue that on some level you knew.

You said yourself that you have never been attracted to men, so for you your sexuality was never in issue when you were a man as you were always attracted to women. Reverse the roles. You've made your transition and you're with a woman who decides after years together that she feels she's really a man and wants to make that change. Do you honestly believe you could have the same sexual attraction to him that you previously had? Do you think the relationship would remain the same? Would "your love be strong enough"?

Links234

Chinafoot wrote: »

As myself and others have already said, you can't change your sexual orientation. I love my partner and a very big part of that is his gender. I am attracted to him because he is a man. If e were to become a woman I would no longer be attracted to him. I personally believe it is naive to think that "love" of the person can overcome sexuality.

no I think you're taking me up wrong here, I'm not trying to argue that you should still be attracted your partner, that's absolutely a claim I cannot make. I just disagree with what you were saying that it's not the same person

and I don't think it's naive to think that love can overcome sexuality, because it's happened. there's plenty of couples who have gone through this and have stayed together. I not saying that this is what should happen in all these situations, or that it's what can happen in all of them, but it does. so I'm not being naive.

Chinafoot wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats a ridiculous comparison. Changing as you get older is not the same as changing something as fundamental as your gender. For you, you might see it as "growing as a person" and good for you. The partner who fell in love with the man may not see it that way.

I'm not trying to make a direct comparison though, it's not the same. I'm just trying to point something out, that people can change in a lot of ways.

Chinafoot wrote: »

Personally I would argue that on some level you knew.

Well, of course on some level I knew, but not a conscious one.
It's like when I was constantly having panic attacks, I look back now and can clearly see why I was having them, because every time I had to leave the house, I had to put up this facade of being someone I wasn't, and it was really getting to me. I just wouldn't be able to hold things together and I'd get a panic attack, but I honestly did not know why it was happening, I went to see people about this and everything, but I couldn't find the cause. it was always there, beneath the surface, effecting me, but I couldn't see it. I didn't realise it at the time.

I did not know, and it took me some time before I consciously could piece everything together and everything made sense.

Chinafoot wrote: »

You said yourself that you have never been attracted to men, so for you your sexuality was never in issue when you were a man as you were always attracted to women. Reverse the roles. You've made your transition and you're with a woman who decides after years together that she feels she's really a man and wants to make that change. Do you honestly believe you could have the same sexual attraction to him that you previously had? Do you think the relationship would remain the same? Would "your love be strong enough"?

Someone asked me this in a PM last night, and honestly, I don't know.

probably not. the relationship wouldn't be the same, I don't think I would be attracted to him. would I still have feelings for the person and want them in my life? yes, absolutely. but still be sexually attracted to them? no, I'm not sure I would

Das Kitty

Chinafoot wrote: »

But a person's gender plays an enormous role in who they are. I think it's naive to think that it would be the same person in a new body.

Well no. People who are transgender are always the gender they are, just their bodies don't match who they are on the inside. Yes there is an extra change when they transition as the world treats them in their true gender, but if this were to happen he would have always been a woman in a man's body.

As for being classed as a lesbian or bisexual? I'm not into labels, I could easily find him sexually attractive if he were a woman. Wouldn't bother me in that sense.

The Big Red Button

Das Kitty wrote: »

As for being classed as a lesbian or bisexual? I'm not into labels, I could easily find him sexually attractive if he were a woman. Wouldn't bother me in that sense.

I don't think that the problem is with being "classed" lesbian or bisexual.

Personally, I've never in my life been sexually/romantically attracted to women. However I really don't feel that I have any issues with homosexuality, and if I were ever in the future attracted to a woman (assuming I were single!) I absolutely wouldn't hesitate to explore that; I wouldn't let the fact that I'm "straight" make me miss out on anything.

Similarly, if I were in this hypothetical marriage, and I got over all the initial emotions etc and "forgave" my partner and supported the transition ... if it happened that, after everything, I found that I was still just as attracted to her as a woman as when she was a man - well, that would be just wonderful, wouldn't it? We'd all live happily ever after.

But my problem is that I just can't imagine that it's possible to "turn" lesbian or bisexual in response to the very unusual situation. If I have never in my life been attracted to women, I can't imagine that suddenly changing ... and it's not something that you can force.

Links, I'm curious - you know more than any of us about the cases where the marriages survived. The wives in question - were they bisexual all along? Or did they at any stage in their lives prior to this consider that they might be?

LenaClaire

Links234 wrote: »

there's plenty of couples who have gone through this and have stayed together. I not saying that this is what should happen in all these situations, or that it's what can happen in all of them, but it does. so I'm not being naive.

Where I used to live I was fairly heavily involved in the GLBT community because most of my friends were GLBT. I knew several couples that stayed together when the husband decided to cross-dress but I only know of one that stayed together when the husband decided to fully transition and that was a rocky relationship.

From the discussions we had it seemed that having a husband present himself as a woman did not bother the wives as much as having a husband become a woman. There were just varying sexual responses and sexual needs that were going un-fufilled. I am not saying that couples can never stay together after transition, just that it would be very, very difficult.

I stayed very good friends with my ex after transition, I took care of her after some of her surgeries, we went clothes shopping together, I gave her a shoulder to cry on... all of the things you do for a friend. But as she transitioned I was not attracted to her anymore since I am just not attracted to women.

Links234

chatterpillar wrote: »

and it's not something that you can force.

I agree, and I'm certainly not gonna say that it can be forced

chatterpillar wrote: »

Links, I'm curious - you know more than any of us about the cases where the marriages survived. The wives in question - were they bisexual all along? Or did they at any stage in their lives prior to this consider that they might be?

That's a big question, because I don't really think there's any one answer.

Like, I know of one girl who was going through transition while in a relationship, and her girlfriend was actually really thrilled by it, apparently loved the changes. and as her skin became softer and feminine from the hormones, her girlfriend realised that she was never really into guys in the first place. I don't really know much more than what she said on this message board, but from what I took from it was that her transition stirred something in her girlfriend that she didn't realise before.

but sometimes I think a lot of these girls just don't ask. like, if their girlfriends/wives are still attracted to them as women, they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth you know? I'm just after finishing She's Not There tonight, and there's a part where Jennifer describes her relationship with her wife now as not being a lesbian one. that kinda baffles me even but the important thing is that they still love each other.

Someone asked on the LGBT forum before a question like, if after transition (me being completely female at this point) I had a girlfriend who considered herself straight, would that not be disrespectful to me by not acknowledging my gender? I dunno, I don't think I'd question it, because the important thing would be that we're happy together, love each other and are attracted to each other. It wouldn't be any good to pick away at that over labels and definitions.

what I really do believe is that human sexuality is way, way too diverse and complex to ever be neatly fitted into little boxes like gay or straight. I wouldn't ask someone else to define or redefine their sexuality for me.

baby and crumble

Links234 wrote:

Someone asked on the LGBT forum before a question like, if after transition (me being completely female at this point) I had a girlfriend who considered herself straight, would that not be disrespectful to me by not acknowledging my gender?

/waves!

This point still really, REALLY confuses me. I just think that if a wife stays with her now female partner in a fully sexual way after transition, and still see herself, calls herself, and lives her life as 'straight', that would just be such a slap in the face. it's not about labels, it's not about definitions. It's about respect. If you are a woman, in love or sexually attracted to another woman for an extended, serious amount of time (because a lot of people experiment and get crushes, and it's all good) you are are not straight. You're just not. And to continue to see yourself as straight surely means you are not acknowledging the full implications and the reality of what your partner has gone through. You may be lesbian, you may be bisexual, but you stopped being straight.

Like I said earlier in this thread if my gf began transitioning into male, and I still found her sexy and attractive and the person I want to be with forever, then I'm no longer gay. And that would be quite a big deal for me. I'm not saying it could never happen, I'm just saying I find it unlikely, and all the love and the best will in the world won't make me think the danglies are something I want in my bed on a regular basis!

digitalremote

I would be utterly disgusted eeeewwwww

Links234

zoegh wrote: »

/waves!

/waves back

zoegh wrote: »

This point still really, REALLY confuses me. I just think that if a wife stays with her now female partner in a fully sexual way after transition, and still see herself, calls herself, and lives her life as 'straight', that would just be such a slap in the face. it's not about labels, it's not about definitions. It's about respect. If you are a woman, in love or sexually attracted to another woman for an extended, serious amount of time (because a lot of people experiment and get crushes, and it's all good) you are are not straight. You're just not. And to continue to see yourself as straight surely means you are not acknowledging the full implications and the reality of what your partner has gone through. You may be lesbian, you may be bisexual, but you stopped being straight.

Like I said earlier in this thread if my gf began transitioning into male, and I still found her sexy and attractive and the person I want to be with forever, then I'm no longer gay. And that would be quite a big deal for me. I'm not saying it could never happen, I'm just saying I find it unlikely, and all the love and the best will in the world won't make me think the danglies are something I want in my bed on a regular basis!

I kinda do agree, but you know, if it were me it would just be important to me that she loves me and is attracted to me, I wouldn't want to stir up any kind of potential hornets nest by trying to force someone to redefine their sexuality for me. maybe she's uncomfortable with the word lesbian? for many people, it's a word that has baggage and if she doesn't identify with that, then that's fair enough.

digitalremote wrote: »

I would be utterly disgusted eeeewwwww

what do you find disgusting about it?

Neyite

Links234 wrote: »

I don't really think why it shouldn't be the same person?

god, I don't want to fundamentally change who I am as a person when I transition. I think I'm going to GROW as a person, definitely, but I will still be the same person with the likes and dislikes and sense of humour and personality. the same geeky comic book nerd who loves 80's movies and star trek and rammstein and everything else. just that hopefully in a year from now, I'll be a happier, more confident version of me with breasts

but on the other hand, everybody grows and changes over time. who I am today is not the same as I was 10 years ago, or 5 years ago or 2 years ago. I'm sure that you're not exactly the same person you were either, but that you've grown as a person over the years too.

the sad thing is, a lot of women find that they man they're with today is not the same man they've married. he's changed as a person too.

Links, ive read a few of your threads, and i have always found them to be very informative and interesting to me on a subject of which i know little.

if my partner was to tell me he is intending to transition, it would mean the end of our romantic relationship. to remain in that relationship as an intimate partner, with two women, would make it a lesbian relationship.
but im not lesbian or bi, or bi-curious. i would not expect a gay person to stay in a hetro relationship and essentially live a lie, why would i expect myself to stay in a lesbian relationship when its not the gender im attracted to?

you yourself have said in previous posts that gender and sexuality are two totally different things - that is why when you transition, the gender you are attracted to remains the same. if you are not changing the gender you are attracted to, is it fair to ask the person you are with to?

i admire the women that have made it work as a functioning marraige you have mentioned. but i could not do this.

if on the other hand, i met a man i was attracted to, who used to be a woman, yeah, no problems there.

Links234

Neyite wrote: »

Links, ive read a few of your threads, and i have always found them to be very informative and interesting to me on a subject of which i know little.

if my partner was to tell me he is intending to transition, it would mean the end of our romantic relationship. to remain in that relationship as an intimate partner, with two women, would make it a lesbian relationship.
but im not lesbian or bi, or bi-curious. i would not expect a gay person to stay in a hetro relationship and essentially live a lie, why would i expect myself to stay in a lesbian relationship when its not the gender im attracted to?

you yourself have said in previous posts that gender and sexuality are two totally different things - that is why when you transition, the gender you are attracted to remains the same. if you are not changing the gender you are attracted to, is it fair to ask the person you are with to?

i admire the women that have made it work as a functioning marraige you have mentioned. but i could not do this.

if on the other hand, i met a man i was attracted to, who used to be a woman, yeah, no problems there.

Hey Neyite, I think something I have to clear up is that I am not trying to tell anyone here that they should still find the person attractive, or that they should change their sexuality, that's not what I'm try to say at all

I'm just posing the question because, when people talk about transgender people on forums like AH, it's always the same question from the male perspective, like what would you think if your girlfriend used to be a guy, that kind of thing. and I think that more often it's women who are faced with the kind of situation I've described, but we never hear from their perspective? so I'm asking, what do the women think? I wanted to hear from those who would be effected most.

Neyite

i think you started a great thread here, you are right, it nearly always is an AH type convo with a few off-colour jokes thrown in, so its refreshing to provoke thought from another angle, and point of view.

Links234

Thank you very much. and yeah, I get pretty tired of the AH responses, so I'm glad you like it

digitalremote

Links234 wrote: »

what do you find disgusting about it?

That a woman "changed" into a "man" and started a relationship with me which was full of lies.

You can't change gender. I know people like to think that they can by mutilating themselves but no they can't. It's revolting.

Giselle

Links234 wrote: »

Thank you very much. and yeah, I get pretty tired of the AH responses, so I'm glad you like it

You field them exceptionally well.:)

If I was married and my husband told me he needed to transition, I've no idea how I would react. Would I love him less? Probably not. Would I remain attracted? Probably not. Would I want her in my life? Probably, but I don't know how our 'new' relationship would be.

All I know for sure is that the situation would be an emotional minefield. In reality, very little about her would actually have changed, and yet everything about us would have changed, if you get me.

Xiney

digitalremote wrote: »

That a woman "changed" into a "man" and started a relationship with me which was full of lies.

You can't change gender. I know people like to think that they can by mutilating themselves but no they can't. It's revolting.

ok, this is not the thread for that fight. If you continue it, I'll assume you're trolling and you'll get banned.

Links234

Giselle wrote: »

You field them exceptionally well.:)

well thank you, but it does seem to just go around in circles a lot, and it's kinda hard to argue with some people who are quite closed minded. this is a refreshing thread for me as well in that way.

caseyann

No i could not stay with that person no matter how much i loved him.
I would wish him luck,if kids involved i couldn't imagine the trauma of it for them.
It is their responsibility to deal with their sexuality before they commit to someone,rather then throw that at them when married with kids.