Golf Measurement devices - yay or nay?

madds

I'm conducting some research on behalf of our club into the whole area of measurement devices (be they GPS, laser, or iPhone apps) before we bring in a local rule allowing/not allowing their use. Having read some of the recent threads on this subject on this forum recently I felt a number of posters here might be a good sounding board.

Some reasons I've heard recently for not allowing their use are:

1. An individual who is constantly checking their device will be the cause of slow play.
2. Our competitive advantage will be given away in an inter-club match if we allow these devices and the opposing club does not.

So, what's your opinion? Are you in support of them and if so, can you explain why it would be a positive thing?

Many thanks.

gripcasey

They may help clubs increase revenue. I would think that golfers who purchase a gps would want to use it on different courses. It may also be one of the items tourists look for when booking golf, if the course is mapped or not.

soundsham

Point one is not valid really as I find it speeds up play
You look read the number and bang away
The slow player will also be slow making his calculations, Walking forward then pacing back from the 100 and doing the math is slower

As for competitive advantage being lost there's nearly a comittee meeting now before a guy hits a shot anyway

If gps were allowed this too would speed up in my opinion

Kace

Personally - I think that they speed up play slightly - no farting about pacing yardages near greens or trying to calculate from stroke savers etc.

Tom Ghostwood

Id like for every club to allow them as I use a laser rangefinder. Much quicker than pacing out yardages, wondering if the pin is front, middle, back or switching from one club to another because you're unsure of the distance.

Simply look through the rangefinder, get the yardage, select club, hit the ball.

stockdam

I don't think they should be used. One of the skills of golf is judging distance especially if you are not in the centre of the fairway. Even if you know the distance accurately then you still have to judge the effect of wind, whether the shot is uphill or downhill, temperature, the amount of roll etc. So if you allow GPS then why not go to the next level and allow a temperature reading, wind speed measurement, elevation measurment......all of these may help but at the end of the day it's about skill and experience and not about science. Why not also allow a camera that looks at the green and tells you where to aim a putt?



Pacing out distance from markers does not slow down play if it's done correctly (as you walk past the marker).

Maggie Benson

Not allowed in GUI or ILGU competitions in Ireland - check websites.

Russman

stockdam wrote: »

I don't think they should be used. One of the skills of golf is judging distance especially if you are not in the centre of the fairway. Even if you know the distance accurately then you still have to judge the effect of wind, whether the shot is uphill or downhill, temperature, the amount of roll etc. So if you allow GPS then why not go to the next level and allow a temperature reading, wind speed measurement, elevation measurment......all of these may help but at the end of the day it's about skill and experience and not about science. Why not also allow a camera that looks at the green and tells you where to aim a putt?



Pacing out distance from markers does not slow down play if it's done correctly (as you walk past the marker).

+1 to that. I think they take away from one of the great skills of the game. We're not robots and anyway most handicap amateurs would have a fairly big range of yardages with a given club through ball striking inconsistency that they'd be largely irrelevant IMO.

Plus I don't really think they'd be massively popular with the majority of club players, elite players might be a different matter but thats largely posing for effect, can you imagine the slagging a (with respect) 20 handicaper would get from his mates if he whipped out a GPS and wondered if he had 177 or 179 to the pin into a gale on a frozen November morning ???:D (i guess the gps would take away the element of doubt but you know what I mean !)

The speed of play argument is probably fair enough but most club players will simply repeat whatever they see the pros getting away with on TV so I don't think it would have a massive bearing one way or the other in reality. Solving the slow play curse will take more than GPS

Johnny_Fontane

If they are using those binocular type laser range finders, its definitely slower. No argument.

I'd personally ban rangefinders along with electric caddies (mocad's/golf glider) for anyone under 50 or without a med cert and make it mandatory for people to carry golf bags in big tournaments.

Golf is turning into an armchair sport.....

Tom Ghostwood

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

If they are using those binocular type laser range finders, its definitely slower. No argument.

I would disagree.

the groutch

I think they ruin the game it should be up to the player to make their own estimate of how far they are to the pin, with the markers providing a bit of assistance.
if yuo bring in GPS stuff like that, what's next? robotic arms, homing golf balls?

Mister Sifter

I'm 100% in favour of them. If you are worried about the impact they will have on your GUI teams i would suggest looking at the clubs who have gone far in them this year and whether or not they allow DMDs.

My counter argument to the concerns about the effect they would have on club teams would be: you'll have a membership who will know their distances a lot better than they do currently; and you will be well placed for when the GUI eventually decides to allow them in GUI competitions (which will eventually happen).

The slow play argument has already been dealt with i think. It takes me far less time to spot a distance with the laser than it does for me to pace out yardages and ponder how far on a pin is.

It's a yes from me.

Tom Ghostwood

the groutch wrote: »

I think they ruin the game it should be up to the player to make their own estimate of how far they are to the pin, with the markers providing a bit of assistance.
if yuo bring in GPS stuff like that, what's next? robotic arms, homing golf balls?

A device that tells you the distance to the pin is ruining the game? C'mon lads. If I want I can pace it out and get the same result only my playing partners would hate me for it & Id look like a fool in the process.

Id look more to clubs & balls for "ruining the game" before id even consider a dmd.

Would I be correct in saying that all the nay sayers dont use a dmd?

Johnny_Fontane

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

A device that tells you the distance to the pin is ruining the game? C'mon lads. If I want I can pace it out and get the same result only my playing partners would hate me for it & Id look like a fool in the process.

Id look more to clubs & balls for "ruining the game" before id even consider a dmd.

Would I be correct in saying that all the nay sayers dont use a dmd?

Would I be correct in saying that you use a dmd (whatever that stands for)?

Tom Ghostwood

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Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

I use a laser rangefinder...

Johnny_Fontane

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

I would disagree.

Interesting, maybe you're quicker than most. When its pissing down (as it has often been this summer) and some dopey member pulls out one of them sitting on the 150 mark....thats what gets to me.

Its basically saying i'm not trusting the yardage markers, but I will trust my binoculars - thats the problem I have.

Mister Sifter

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

A device that tells you the distance to the pin is ruining the game? C'mon lads. If I want I can pace it out and get the same result only my playing partners would hate me for it & Id look like a fool in the process.

Id look more to clubs & balls for "ruining the game" before id even consider a dmd.

Would I be correct in saying that all the nay sayers dont use a dmd?

You raise a good point there Tom and one that i think Madds and his club should certainly consider. There is a tendency for people who don't have a DMD to take the hump and immediately say they should be banned etc. I'd say close to 100% of them though would be in favour of DMDs were someone to give them one. I'd also suggest that people would be far less likely to get the jealous, dismissive head on if DMDs were cheaper.

All a DMD does is calculate a distance - the same distance that a person can calculate by using distance markers and course guides. Only a DMD does it much easier and quicker.

NoelAPM

I say ban them all. If you want to get an edge over me you should have to earn it by using your head.. not by having more money to spend on gadgets! Hard enough afford to afford top tier clubs.

Mister Sifter

NoelAPM wrote: »

I say ban them all. If you want to get an edge over me you should have to earn it by using your head.. not by having more money to spend on gadgets! Hard enough afford to afford top tier clubs.

Going by that theory we should all be using the same clubs, balls, tees, bags, umbrellas, shoes. Just as all players are free to buy the 400 euro Taylor Made driver, as opposed to the 75 euro Maxfli, DMDs are available to everyone of every level. It's an even playing field.

Russman

Mister Sifter wrote: »

You raise a good point there Tom and one that i think Madds and his club should certainly consider. There is a tendency for people who don't have a DMD to take the hump and immediately say they should be banned etc. I'd say close to 100% of them though would be in favour of DMDs were someone to give them one. I'd also suggest that people would be far less likely to get the jealous, dismissive head on if DMDs were cheaper.

All a DMD does is calculate a distance - the same distance that a person can calculate by using distance markers and course guides. Only a DMD does it much easier and quicker.

I'm against them and I certainly don't have "the hump" or a "jealous dismissive head on".

I fully realise they will almost certainly make their way into the mainstream and be accepted in competition but I simply happen to think that judging distance by eye is an essential skill within the game that has been eroded over the last number of years. Its becoming a robotic sport IMO. In fact, as an experiment I'd like to see a tournament where yardage charts, markers and strokesavers were banned, just to see how the pros would get on.
I don't think there's any in built entitlement to know the exact distance you have to go to the green/flag/hazard etc. This seems to be the premise upon which the argument for these devices is based.

I agree they don't give a competitive advantage and all they do is measure distance but happen to disagree with them in competition play, in a non-dismissive way, unlike some of their supporters who would portray dissenting voices as such instead.

madds

Just getting time now to read the views posted here so far and I find it very interesting. Appreciate the time people have taken to give their feelings on this topic.

Tom Ghostwood

NoelAPM wrote: »

I say ban them all. If you want to get an edge over me you should have to earn it by using your head.. not by having more money to spend on gadgets! Hard enough afford to afford top tier clubs.

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Mister Sifter wrote: »

I'd also suggest that people would be far less likely to get the jealous, dismissive head on if DMDs were cheaper.

The only thing I measure by eye/feel is wedge shots from 80 meters in. The rest I use the rangefinder (if allowed on that particular course) or I pace it out from the 150 or the 100, which ever I'm closest to.

Ive nothing more to add on it other than that I use one, I love using one & would like more clubs to allow their use. But at the same time i dont really mine pacing it out. Just much quicker & easier with the rangefinder.

ShriekingSheet

Point & click laser range finders absolutely slow play down. Some players are well able to use them efficiently, but they are sadly in the minority. GPS read-out versions, which change as you walk, and show front, middle and back at all times take no time at all to use.

So while the rules make no distinction, it's important to note this difference. The ritual of taking a device out, finding the flag in the lens and putting it back in it's pouch is completely different to looking at a screen fixed to your bag.

Another ridiculous argument bandied about, is that these devices "speed up play, because it's faster than pacing yardages". This is shyte talk. How many people do you see pacing yardages on a given day? A well marked out course will have two or three accurate yardage stakes on most holes, which you'll rarely be far from. (If you're frequently miles away from these stakes, exact yardages are not your concern ). It doesn't take any golfing ability to look at a stake or disc, and estimate within a couple of yards how far away you are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nay saying the value of having a good yardage, but I do think with minimal effort and cop on, you can get good yardages without a laser or satelite.

The real kick in the face though for me, is that you could take a 9 handicap player who uses one all the time on his home course, and then plays Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen Shield and a few Intermediate Scratch Cups and has to re-engage his own powers of deduction to get yardages, despite the fact that these are the most competitive shots of his season.

Overall, I don't really care what clubs make whatever rules, or who uses them or who doesn't. I don't use one, and have the same process of determining the shot I'll hit, regardless of course or competition. Ironically, thanks to such devices I've been assured of my position on this when practicing with mates, calling out yardages, only for their weeks-wages-worth of a gadget to tell me I'm one yard wrong

Mister Sifter

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Point & click laser range finders absolutely slow play down. Some players are well able to use them efficiently, but they are sadly in the minority. GPS read-out versions, which change as you walk, and show front, middle and back at all times take no time at all to use.

So while the rules make no distinction, it's important to note this difference. The ritual of taking a device out, finding the flag in the lens and putting it back in it's pouch is completely different to looking at a screen fixed to your bag.

Another ridiculous argument bandied about, is that these devices "speed up play, because it's faster than pacing yardages". This is shyte talk. How many people do you see pacing yardages on a given day? A well marked out course will have two or three accurate yardage stakes on most holes, which you'll rarely be far from. (If you're frequently miles away from these stakes, exact yardages are not your concern ). It doesn't take any golfing ability to look at a stake or disc, and estimate within a couple of yards how far away you are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nay saying the value of having a good yardage, but I do think with minimal effort and cop on, you can get good yardages without a laser or satelite.

The real kick in the face though for me, is that you could take a 9 handicap player who uses one all the time on his home course, and then plays Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen Shield and a few Intermediate Scratch Cups and has to re-engage his own powers of deduction to get yardages, despite the fact that these are the most competitive shots of his season.

Overall, I don't really care what clubs make whatever rules, or who uses them or who doesn't. I don't use one, and have the same process of determining the shot I'll hit, regardless of course or competition. Ironically, thanks to such devices I've been assured of my position on this when practicing with mates, calling out yardages, only for their weeks-wages-worth of a gadget to tell me I'm one yard wrong

Tight arse.

PGL

I'm with the yay camp - hardcopy strokesavers are perfectly legal - a gps is a digital strokesaver (although it does not contain shot advice that you would get with a hardcopy strokesaver, and so the GPS is technically not as helpful as the hardcopy version) - hence I see no problem whatsoever in using gps units.
I would tend to agree that laser rangefinders slow the game down to a certain extent. However if you do not have a dmd, you should still be taking some time to take stock of your location, yardage etc before taking your shot, so any argument about slowing play down is pretty weak in my opinion.
It would be great if we could complete the "gps friendly clubs" spreadsheet (one of the sticky threads) - based on the info to date, I would estimate that at least 60% of clubs have a local rule permiting dmds in their club competitions, and most definitely more clubs to follow - this says it all......

ShriekingSheet

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Tight arse.

You should use your laser finder to measure the ground you've lost on the group ahead

MisterAnarchy

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Another ridiculous argument bandied about, is that these devices "speed up play, because it's faster than pacing yardages". This is shyte talk. How many people do you see pacing yardages on a given day? A well marked out course will have two or three accurate yardage stakes on most holes, which you'll rarely be far from. (If you're frequently miles away from these stakes, exact yardages are not your concern ). It doesn't take any golfing ability to look at a stake or disc, and estimate within a couple of yards how far away you are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nay saying the value of having a good yardage, but I do think with minimal effort and cop on, you can get good yardages without a laser or satelite.

Thats very true .
Most courses have 3 or 4 distinct yardage markings from the green so a decent golfer should be able to calculate his distance from the green pretty easily .
As for pacing out yardages ,its almost impossible on my course due to the fact that there is always a group up your arse .
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly bad golfers can play.

Jacket111001

The same arguments were used to oppose the introduction of yardage markers.

" It takes away an integral part of the game.
It will slow down play."

Now they are on every course.

You still have to hit the shot and I haven't seen any incidents of slow play resulting from the use of GPS units. If anything they speed up play.

nuts86

I dont have a gps/laser device, but i would be marginally in favour of using them, I'm currently saving up to get a laser device as i would see them handy for when your standing on the tee and you need to find out how far it is to carry a bunker/water hazard or if from the fairway how far to carry the hazard as well.

Now when i do get one i wont be using it for every shot ie, when I'm inside the 100m metre mark i should know what club I'm gonna play before i even get to the ball!

I'm not a slow player, i walk fast between shots, don't take long over the ball and don't mess about on the green so i would hope my playing partners would forgive the few extra seconds i would take looking through a range finder...

getoffthepot

No doubt about it, they speed up play. (I have a GPS device)
Some courses have yardage markers on sprinklers - front, middle and back. Others don't. Should there be a standard for this ?
It's quicker than consulting the strokesaver too !

stringy

I'd go for not allowed in any competition.

It annoys me when I see fellas pacing out yardages all the time, ok if you're a good ball striker and you know how far you hit it, but most amateurs:

1. Don't know how far they hit the ball (usually underclub)
2. Don't hit the ball consistently the same distance

GPS is pretty much useless for them, they'd be better off investing in a series of lessons, and then maybe consider buying one so they can reap the rewards of their better ball striking.

soundsham

anyone who thinks a gps device slows down play obviously hasn't used one....

1916

madds wrote: »

I'm conducting some research on behalf of our club into the whole area of measurement devices (be they GPS, laser, or iPhone apps) before we bring in a local rule allowing/not allowing their use. Having read some of the recent threads on this subject on this forum recently I felt a number of posters here might be a good sounding board.

Some reasons I've heard recently for not allowing their use are:

1. An individual who is constantly checking their device will be the cause of slow play.
2. Our competitive advantage will be given away in an inter-club match if we allow these devices and the opposing club does not.

So, what's your opinion? Are you in support of them and if so, can you explain why it would be a positive thing?Many thanks.

Madds, go for it, my club recently gave permission and its an 'old school' type club which surprised me. I just think its progression. Won't make any difference on your home course as you will know what club to take from probably most locations (high and low handicapper), but for away courses it really helps. I can't judge distances too well as I'm a '30 year' specs guys, so I appreciate something that tells me its 150 yards or 230 yards' - and yes that happens

From my survey on the other thread, the majority are saying 'its the way things are going, we have to move with the times'. You'll always have the clubs who will never want move on it, but over time that will be only 10%, thats my prediction. Let me know when you make the decision so that I can update the file, but my prediction is that it will be a 'Yes'

whizbang

I have used a gps occasionally on different courses, and i can absolutely state it speeds up my play.
If courses can produce something akin to a "certificate of accuracy" (measured by a third party)for their distance markers, then they have grounds for not allowing dmds.
Nobody should need to use them on their home course, so visitors only???

madds

Thanks 1916 - can you post a link to the thread you mention?

1916

madds wrote: »

Thanks 1916 - can you post a link to the thread you mention?

The thread is the sticky on GPS friendly clubs with the Excel file attached within. I've been updating it but won't post next update until I've a bit more done. The part on the survey I mention was more the feedback I was getting from the clubs in compiling the file

Myksyk

I'm on the yes side too. Some points I'd make.

Knowing the yardage or being allowed to know the yardage is an accepted aspect of the game. This is simply an argument about how you do it, and is this way quicker.

Knowing the yardage does not take away from the skill of the game in any substantial way ... you still have to have the skill to hit the ball exactly the distance you have determined the flag to be from you. You still have to judge elevation, wind, temperature, ground topography and then hit the shot with whatever club which will likely bring you the best result ... are we afraid that knowing the yardage will make the game 'too simple' ... gimme a break!!!

It does not mean the imminent introduction of gadgets to measure elevation, wind or other aspects of the course ... these are all expressly forbidden by the rules of golf. Distance measurement is not, as evidenced by the fact that ALL golf courses give you the measurements to the green in general and you can work it out pretty much exactly if you care to do so.

GPS definitely speeds up play.

I think it would make golfers better in the long term as you become much more aware of your club distances.

PROs yardage books are very precise and are completed using either GPS or range finders.

ShriekingSheet

soundsham wrote: »

anyone who thinks a gps device slows down play obviously hasn't used one....

Yes, but that's an irrelevent point, given that no differentiation is made in the rules between GPS and Laser devices. The latter absolutely can slow play down.

thegen

I'm a yay. I dont think we can halt progress. Our forefathers have had the same discussions with regards to yardage markers and strokesavers. It is simply progression. And I dont think they slow play.