New Bus Eireann Limerick/Galway Express Service

KC61

A new express service has been launched by Bus Eireann between Limerick and Galway taking 90 minutes for the trip.

It operates hourly from 0900 to 1800 seven days a week.

Times at http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1281351873-X51.pdf

cson

Edit: nevermind; wrong city.

Cookie_Monster

So IE spend millions and millions opening the WRC and now BE are competing with them (and beating them), in what's only going to cost the taxpayer more in subsidies to both. honestly, what's the point

gmale

How long does the WRC take?

You would think that it would start earlier in the day so that it could pick up commuters in Oranmore and Gort heading into Galway, unless there already is a bus service for them.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So IE spend millions and millions opening the WRC and now BE are competing with them (and beating them), in what's only going to cost the taxpayer more in subsidies to both. honestly, what's the point

Bus Eireann Expressway services are not necessarily subsidised. Given the loadings that they are achieving between Limerick and Galway I would say that the route is a profit maker.

KC61

gmale wrote: »

How long does the WRC take?

You would think that it would start earlier in the day so that it could pick up commuters in Oranmore and Gort heading into Galway, unless there already is a bus service for them.

The train takes 1 hour 55 minutes.

There is already a commuter service in the early morning (route 435).

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1272287885-51.pdf

gmale

KC61 wrote: »

The train takes 1 hour 55 minutes.

There is already a commuter service in the early morning (route 435).

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1272287885-51.pdf

Why would anyone get the train when the bus is apparently faster and more than likely cheaper

Cookie_Monster

gmale wrote: »

Why would anyone get the train when the bus is apparently faster and more than likely cheaper

exactly!

sightseeing maybe :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

gmale wrote: »

How long does the WRC take?

You would think that it would start earlier in the day so that it could pick up commuters in Oranmore and Gort heading into Galway, unless there already is a bus service for them.

no this will not happen as it would inconvenience Irish rail staff and managers. They might have to get a driver out of bed early to do a proper morning commuter service!

KC61

I should add that Citylink's 6 services per day between Galway and Cork were already scheduled to travel between Galway and Limerick in 90 minutes.

T Corolla

Bus Eireann is really stepping up to the helm with two new expressway services. Irish Rail will be putting in some passing loops between Limerick and Galway now. This is great to see pressure been put on to make public services more efficent. I just looked at it and it has only two stops. This will be a boost to both cities.

dowlingm

There are days when BE looks a lot like Ryanair to me - except Michael O'Leary doesn't have social welfare contracts and school bus contracts to help him run other companies into the ground. :rolleyes:

KC61 wrote: »

Bus Eireann Expressway services are not necessarily subsidised.

Maybe not on an operating basis, but the reality is that the various state contracts means they pay much of the overhead and create an organisation with a much larger buying power for vehicles, parts and fuel.

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

There are days when BE looks a lot like Ryanair to me - except Michael O'Leary doesn't have social welfare contracts and school bus contracts to help him run other companies into the ground. :rolleyes:

Maybe not on an operating basis, but the reality is that the various state contracts means they pay much of the overhead and create an organisation with a much larger buying power for vehicles, parts and fuel.

I think you are being rather unfair here.

Bus Eireann (along with private operators) are delivering what people want - express services between the large urban centres. If you had the time to observe their loadings on Limerick/Galway you would see that many departures consisted of two buses due to the large numbers of people travelling. Limerick/Galway is most definitely not a subsidised route.

I don't think that this has anything to do with "running other companies into the ground". More like delivering what customers want - remember too that BE got a fairly clean bill of health from Deloitte.

Carawaystick

dowlingm wrote: »

There are days when BE looks a lot like Ryanair to me - except Michael O'Leary doesn't have social welfare contracts and school bus contracts to help him run other companies into the ground. :rolleyes:

Mick OL flies to one of Irelands only airports with a train station at it in Farranfore, and cashes the govt cheque to do so.


Tcorolla, why would IÉ rebuild a crap rail line that floods and waste(invest) out money in a service that is worse than the bus less than a year after opening. No more public money should be wasted on that rail line crap.

Zoney

gmale wrote: »

Why would anyone get the train when the bus is apparently faster and more than likely cheaper

Because for a day return it isn't much cheaper and is a far less horrible way to travel? There are plenty of people who won't take public transport if it means a bus, but who will for a train, and cost particularly doesn't enter into this quite as acutely as for people who are happy to cram on to a bus regularly.

Also people with kids, or anyone else who needs to, can avail of the toilet facilities on the train.

Also it's a smoother ride than Limerick-Shannon and Ennis-Galway is by road - for now, so you can read/work on the train without getting ill. Even the DC between Limerick and Shannon is too much of a roller-coaster (even if just slightly so for much of it - it's enough that a lot of people can't read on the bus).

I can put up with an extra 25 mins or so for now, however absurd it is and however much they need to further improve the service (that's what they should focus on as a Western project rather than the link to Tuam).

LGiamani

Zoney wrote: »

Because for a day return it isn't much cheaper and is a far less horrible way to travel? There are plenty of people who won't take public transport if it means a bus, but who will for a train, and cost particularly doesn't enter into this quite as acutely as for people who are happy to cram on to a bus regularly.

Also people with kids, or anyone else who needs to, can avail of the toilet facilities on the train.

Also it's a smoother ride than Limerick-Shannon and Ennis-Galway is by road - for now, so you can read/work on the train without getting ill. Even the DC between Limerick and Shannon is too much of a roller-coaster (even if just slightly so for much of it - it's enough that a lot of people can't read on the bus).

I can put up with an extra 25 mins or so for now, however absurd it is and however much they need to further improve the service (that's what they should focus on as a Western project rather than the link to Tuam).

You are correct the train is a much higher quality journey. The current service Limerick-Galway needs to be brought up to the same standards as the mainlines coming out of Dublin. I doubt that this will surface in the next few years but for it to happen people need to put up with it so IR will starts making improvements to it.

foggy_lad

They can't improve anything until they get rid of all the level crossings and that is not going to happen, they will not be allowed throw more money at this in the hope of a few extra passengers when the numbers so far could have been accommodated on a bus! They will also never make a cent from this line unless it is torn up and sold for scrap.

No stops between Gort and Limerick suggest it will be using the M18 all the way once it is open.

dowlingm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Mick OL flies to one of Irelands only airports with a train station at it in Farranfore, and cashes the govt cheque to do so.

According to Google, Farranfore Station is 1.4km from the railway station. Hardly "in it", is it?

oharach

KC61 wrote: »

The train takes 1 hour 55 minutes.

We're not exactly comparing like for like though. How much time would an 'Express' Train save, i.e. one with no intermediary stops?

Edit: I was bored, so I looked into this. The train saves around 2 mins for every stop skipped. For 6 stops, 12 mins. If you add the extra minutes budgeted by Irish Rail for some stations (especially Athenry, 3 mins), you get up to 18 mins. Competitive with the bus at peak, and more comfortable. Never going to happen though.

Very simplistic assumptions:
No conflicts
Line speed 80kmph through stations (maybe high but made sums easy)
60s to stop and 60s to get back to 80kmph
Uniform deceleration/Acceleration
60s dwell at all stations, extra budgeted where IR did
Imagination from IR

fh041205

gmale wrote: »

Why would anyone get the train when the bus is apparently faster and more than likely cheaper

I would. Can't stand buses.

gmale

fh041205 wrote: »

I would. Can't stand buses.

Fair play to ya!

There are so many things wrong with the transport system in ireland and I see this as the latest entry. In Dublin there are busses, darts and luases and there will eventually be metros and no ticket integration! And that is not even taking account of commuter trains and busses. But that is off topic.

Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann are state owned. How can they be allowed compete with eachother after the massive capital investment that was the WRC! I get that that the train is not an express and the bus is a way of providing an express service it still seems daft.

Its roughly 100km, Galway to Limerick, a train travelling at 70km/hr (why we cant plan for fast trains in Ireland I dont know!) would take 1hr25mins, saving 30 mins on the current journey and just slightly faster than the bus. Bearing in mind that the bus wont be as reliable as a train due to traffic, if IE were to introduce an express train morning and evening and slightly reduce the local stop scehdule there would probably be no need for a new bus service.

BluntGuy

fh041205 wrote: »

I would. Can't stand buses.

Yeah I think given the choice most people would rather hop on a train. But that logic can only be extended so far to justify rail projects. If a bus does the job far quicker and cheaper than the equivalent train, then the train either has to shape up so it's vaguely competitive or else there's no point in it, even when the comfort differential is considered.

I don't see the current WRC set up ever being competitive with the bus. I have no idea exactly how much it would cost to bring the line up to that standard, but I seriously doubt there'd be any pennies left over for more pointless extensions. Considering IE aren't even capable of making their "flagship" service competitive, I doubt it would ever happen anyway.

gmale wrote:

if IE were to introduce an express train morning and evening and slightly reduce the local stop scehdule there would probably be no need for a new bus service.

I can imagine the outcry if they even tried to skip one intermediate station and offer more "direct" services.

fh041205

gmale wrote: »

Its roughly 100km, Galway to Limerick, a train travelling at 70km/hr (why we cant plan for fast trains in Ireland I dont know!) would take 1hr25mins, saving 30 mins on the current journey and just slightly faster than the bus.

The line isn't capable of those speeds all the way from Limerick to Galway AFAIK. Its a meandering excuse of a railway line in that regard. WRC was and still is a complete waste of time and money, but just because the bus is faster and cheaper doesn't mean people will use it.

In Drogheda, you have train, Bus Eireann, and Matthews coach. Train is the most expensive out of the 3 and at least the 2nd slowest if not, the slowest. Yet its still got higher passenger numbers than the other two bus options.

I was going to write more in my previous post but Zoney has pretty accurately said everything above that I was thinking.

KevR

BluntGuy wrote: »

I can imagine the outcry if they even tried to skip one intermediate station and offer more "direct" services.

From what I can tell, a handful of people in Crusheen have kicked up a huge fuss because they don't have a train station in their town. A station is now planned for Crusheen which will make Galway-Limerick journeys a little bit slower.

KC61

oharach wrote: »

We're not exactly comparing like for like though. How much time would an 'Express' Train save, i.e. one with no intermediary stops?

Edit: I was bored, so I looked into this. The train saves around 2 mins for every stop skipped. For 6 stops, 12 mins. If you add the extra minutes budgeted by Irish Rail for some stations (especially Athenry, 3 mins), you get up to 18 mins. Competitive with the bus at peak, and more comfortable. Never going to happen though.

Very simplistic assumptions:
No conflicts
Line speed 80kmph through stations (maybe high but made sums easy)
60s to stop and 60s to get back to 80kmph
Uniform deceleration/Acceleration
60s dwell at all stations, extra budgeted where IR did
Imagination from IR

As it is the running time can probably drop to 1 hour 45 minutes, with crossings taking place at Ennis - the initial estimates were too generous. I'd expect that to happen in the next timetable change.

However, it is complicated by trying to fit around Dublin/Galway trains and trying to maximise connections at Limerick.

A couple of other points:

Eliminating station stops saves 1.5 minutes.

Athenry has the minimum time allowed for a stop where the driver has to change ends (3 minutes).

dowlingm

Rail stops are not just about time, they are about fuel too. We're going to have the spectacle of 100mph 22Ks hardly getting to the pathetic speed limits on this line before having to decelerate again. Since they aren't electric or hybrid units, we don't even have regenerative braking to fall back on.

Crusheen, which already has hourly bidirectional BE service, should be told
NO
and Ardrahan and Craughwell boardings limited to peak demand only, similar to Woodlawn and Ardrahan. There is no more money for parity of esteem type bull$h!t. We're going to fork out for a slathering of tarmac and concrete in Crusheen while Oranmore and Longpavement are unserved and the signalling upgrades to allow passing track on Ennis-Limerick is undone? The back of my hand to that.

Zoney

dowlingm:

Agree with that. Whatever about rumours of low usage at Gort, my experience on the service was that Ardrahan for example literally was located among fields! Not really any evidence of anywhere that actual people would appear from to take the train!

oharach

YES!!!

I think we may have started a minor campaign to remove off-peak service from some WRC stops

West on Track: you'll have to come to Frankfurt if you want to lynch me.

corktina

I think its time that one or both of these CIE companies were privatised, and the politicians responsible for this farce put out to grass.

seekers

Good thinking to get rid of the stops at Ardrahan and Craughwell during off peak times. They have very bad loadings anyway. I wonder if the slow downs for the level crossings near these stations would get rid of the saving in time. ALso there are a number of very bad speed restrictions on the line 5MPH on the bridge out of Ennis, I don't know what it is in Tubber but it is very slow and right beside the motorway! and very slow in Athenry on approach. The railway has no interest in speed just plodding along in those wrecks of trains

foggy_lad

seekers wrote: »

Good thinking to get rid of the stops at Ardrahan and Craughwell during off peak times. They have very bad loadings anyway. I wonder if the slow downs for the level crossings near these stations would get rid of the saving in time. ALso there are a number of very bad speed restrictions on the line 5MPH on the bridge out of Ennis, I don't know what it is in Tubber but it is very slow and right beside the motorway! and very slow in Athenry on approach. The railway has no interest in speed just plodding along in those wrecks of trains

that really is unbelievable! 5mph over some bridge they should have replaced! they should have done a good job of relaying the track instead of just throwing it down on any auld footing! this is why we had the flooding delays and now operational delays as the track is not fit for trains!

Transportuser09

corktina wrote: »

I think its time that one or both of these CIE companies were privatised, and the politicians responsible for this farce put out to grass.

One of the problems with privatisation is private companys will have little interest in runing loss making services which are a lifeline to rural communities.

And whatever happens, the rail infrastructure itself should not be privatised, you only need to look at the Railtrack fiasco in the UK a number of years ago to see that this wouldn't work.

seekers

This was a bridge that they did replace. The Fergus river bridge near Ennis

foggy_lad

it was replaced but there is a 5mph speed restriction on it? is it made of cardboard? surely steel/iron bridges built as part of railways should be strong enough to take a speeding railcar?

seekers

Got it in one. Replaced. Took some time to do the job as well. The old bridge had a 20 MPH limit on it but the new one has a 5MPH limit. It was rebuilt as part of the reopening, I remember one of the engineers speaking about it at an open night about the line in the Old Ground in Ennis. I also remember travelling on the line just after it reopened and I don't think the 5MPH limit was there then

rainbowdash

With the tunnel and the soon to be complete gort bypass would 75 minutes be achieveable by bus in the near future?

dowlingm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

One of the problems with privatisation is private companys will have little interest in runing loss making services which are a lifeline to rural communities.

That's not necessarily the case - with PSOs or bundled licenses you can still ensure people are served. Additionally, the thing about rural services is THEY MAKE LOSSES and clearly those who choose a rural lifestyle (I grew up in the country so no "townie" assumptions please) have to accept limitations on what the state can provide and how cheaply it can be provided.

The mistake being made at present is the overcentralisation of transport allocation, such as the national school bus scheme "operated" through BE. Tendering for local buses and school buses (the same vehicle running at different hours) should be the responsibility of the local authority, with central government providing a subsidy based on route-kilometers - but only to a matching extent to what the local authority is prepared to fork out.

And whatever happens, the rail infrastructure itself should not be privatised, you only need to look at the Railtrack fiasco in the UK a number of years ago to see that this wouldn't work.

The rail infrastructure in the Republic may not be in the private sector, but it's not open access ("public") like the roads either and that's before we discuss the "funny" status of the FRRHC.

That's why I believe the NRA should be transformed into a national infrastructure operator, being responsible for the maintenance of way (to specified standards per line, including resolution of TSRs and PSRs) in the same way as they are expected to do for motorways. Separation of infrastructure and operator is also required by EU regulations which the Irish government (and UK on behalf of NI) has so far managed to dodge until 2013.

Chris_5339762

Bus times will be the same as all the buses go through Gort at the moment. They'd have to do a U turn in the town to get back to the motorway which isnt practical. Next place to get back on is Crusheen.

Zoney

dowlingm wrote: »

That's not necessarily the case - with PSOs or bundled licenses you can still ensure people are served. Additionally, the thing about rural services is THEY MAKE LOSSES and clearly those who choose a rural lifestyle (I grew up in the country so no "townie" assumptions please) have to accept limitations on what the state can provide and how cheaply it can be provided.

You are right that some "choose" a rural lifestyle (McMansion, etc.) but the people who are most part of rural Ireland are those who have always lived there. I do not agree that they should expect poorer services (at least, not in the basic sense, obviously some provisions aren't feasible or are intrinsic to urban areas) - a sounder principle is to have strict planning to stop other people "choosing" to live there except in towns/villages/existing houses.

I think the attitude of talking about people "choosing" to live in rural areas treats most of Ireland as some kind of other country and ignores the majority of the population who have a right not to have to move to cities or be treated differently for where they live.

KevR

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Bus times will be the same as all the buses go through Gort at the moment. They'd have to do a U turn in the town to get back to the motorway which isnt practical. Next place to get back on is Crusheen.

Traffic will be a lot lighter going through Gort so the bus should get from North of Gort to the Crusheen motorway junction a little quicker.

Or they could move the Gort bus stop out to the Northern edge of the town so the bus could make the stop and then get on the motorway without having to u-turn.

Tech3

KevR wrote: »

Traffic will be a lot lighter going through Gort so the bus should get from North of Gort to the Crusheen motorway junction a little quicker.

Or they could move the Gort bus stop out to the Northern edge of the town so the bus could make the stop and then get on the motorway without having to u-turn.

Or just remove Gort as a stop for the 51X when the Gort-Crusheen motorway is finished? I'm delighted this service is being provided and it can be improved further by removing the two stops eventually.

foggy_lad

This service will be great for the west and should save a lot of money for cie and taxpayers when the western rail corridor closes due to this bus being faster and more comfortable and a lot cheaper!