Anarchism in Ireland

diddley

Ok, so a friend of mine is an anarchist for over a year now, and has been trying to convert me to it numerous times over the past year, basically saying that private companies would do the work currently done by government. At first I thought it ridiculous, then began to feel neutral about it, then, other than a few issues I would have, I began to think it was a good idea.

However, in light of the whole "government squandering millions" thing in the last decade or so, I want to ask, is anarchy really much worse than what we have? Living in Ireland I'm really beginning to think that government, as it stands, just doesn't work, and I can't take much more of "X's expenses" or the most recent thing I heard here on boards, that wordpress thing. It's insane.

So folks, what do you think of an anarchic Ireland?

CreepingDeath

diddley wrote: »

..has been trying to convert me to it numerous times over the past year, basically saying that private companies would do the work currently done by government.

The banks are/were private companies, so no.
Big business is open to as much abuse and corruption as governments.

But most services are probably going to be privatised so who knows where that'll end up.

Slydice

diddley wrote: »

basically saying that private companies would do the work currently done by government.

from what I know, that sounds more like Libertarianism than anarchism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

plus, there's like a shedload of different types of anarchism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

also, I'd be looking for something that is "Better" than what we have and not "not much worse".

Wazdakka

*Sets fire to OP because I feel like it*

How do you like your anarchy now?
Bloody hippy:mad:

diddley

Wazdakka wrote: »

*Sets fire to OP because I feel like it*

How do you like your anarchy now?
Bloody hippy:mad:

Lol, I'm not even that into anarchism, I just think that government in this country drastically needs to change, it's depressing.

conorhal

diddley wrote: »

So folks, what do you think of an anarchic Ireland?

Haven't you been paying attention or have you failed to realize that we already live in total chaos?


PS. Your friend seems to have a poor understanding of what anarchism is, (private firms running public services WTF?)

seamus

Anarchy is a pure ideal. Like socialism, it sounds great in theory, but in reality the human factor screws it up.

Anarchy relies on the principle that everyone only wants to do the right thing, will hold themselves accountable to a social "code" and will only consume what they need. The reality is that without any form of enforcing authority, such as the Gardai, a minority number of people will screw over everyone else to suit themselves, ignoring any social "code". Everyone else, realising that they're being screwed over, will then disobey the social code (because there are no consequences of doing so), and the selfishness inherent in man will mean that society will fragment into small self-sufficient communites who will constantly fight with each other for resources.

Anarchy = tribalism.

30H!3

Anarchy in Ireland = giving out about 'de bleedin government' while having a few pints in your local.

diddley

conorhal wrote: »

Haven't you been paying attention or have you failed to realize that we already live in total chaos?


PS. Your friend seems to have a poor understanding of what anarchism is, (private firms running public services WTF?)

I was going to write at the end that anarchy =/= chaos, but I assumed that everybody would know that already?

orourkeda

Is anarchy just a glorified version of tree hugging

Dravokivich

Wait... basically privatise all public services?

biko

Anarchy worked well-ish before man started to congregate into towns, 1000s of years ago.

Government and big business are similar that they both try to do what's best for their stakeholders - but for companies that is shareholders and for the government the citizens.

With so many TDs and similar government people also sitting on company boards that line is slowly blurring.
An example is US VP Dick Cheney getting Haliburton the oil contracts in former Iraq.

BickNarry

I think Anarchism is vastly underrepresented in Ireland. I used to think the idea was absurd but then i looked at places where they attempted to use Anarchism.

Those who put in practice are usually small groups of co-operative individuals who want to exist without government assistance/intervention, not people making bombs to overthrow the state. From what i've read, anarchists who put in practice know it's not gonna work if anyone is forced into it, unlike other ideologies.

My knowledge of this is through bands i've listened to who used an ''open-house'' policy and extended their beliefs to record distribution and concerts (providing food for fans and handing out sustainable living leaflets.) They could sell hundred of thousands of pounds worth of records which would be turned into future sustainable projects and go to benefit groups.

However, with everything, the extremists and idiots get the press so lets slap on an anarachy wrist band , a black hoody and listen to green day!

Chuchoter

Theres a difference between all government is bad and our government is bad. If we did anything right your friend would change his mind. Human nature doesn't really allow for anarchy to lead to a functioning society.

seamus

Dravokivich wrote: »

Wait... basically privatise all public services?

Well it's worse than that. You don't pay any tax at all. All services are provided by private enterprise, who quite logically will charge you for that service.
If there's little or no money to be made in a particular service - think healthcare for pensioners - then that service simply isn't offered and people go without.

Every time you drive onto a road network provided by a different road service provider, you will pay a toll to them. Every time you walk through a particular area, you will pay an entry fee to the company who is trimming the hedges and painting the fences. Basically if you want to do anything whatsoever, you will have to pay a fee to someone.

There are no regulators, so if one company gets a dominant position in the market, or all of the companies decide to fix their prices, then they can increase the cost to the consumer all they like and nobody can stop them.

Theoretically market economics should dictate this can't happen, but when you're talking about vital services such as energy, waste, water, healthcare and education, then you can see that any company in these sectors will screw us over for every penny and there's nothing we can do about it except to disconnect from them and segregate ourselves into small community-driven projects which provide these services on a microeconomic socialist basis.

You basically cannot have an anarchist country. Anarchism and the notion of a regional-based society are fundamentally incompatible. It can only work when "society" is composed of small self-sufficient communities.

Cheap Thrills!

No, things are messy enough now. Anarchism isn't a good 'system'
It would be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

brianthebard

seamus wrote: »

Capitalism is a pure ideal. Like Capitalism, it sounds great in theory, but in reality the human factor screws it up.

Capitalism relies on the principle that everyone only wants to do the right thing, will hold themselves accountable to a social "code" and will only consume what they need. The reality is that without any form of enforcing authority, such as the Gardai, a minority number of people will screw over everyone else to suit themselves, ignoring any social "code". Everyone else, realising that they're being screwed over, will then disobey the social code (because there are no consequences of doing so), and the selfishness inherent in man will mean that society will fragment into small self-sufficient communites who will constantly fight with each other for resources.

Capitalism= tribalism.

FYP. Also what you described above about private enterprise providing everything, lack of regulators, etc, is not anarchism, its libertarian capitalism. You also fail to realise that anarchists would desire nations and states to be deconstructed and be replaced with small self supporting communities, so you're not really saying anything they don't know or want, its more of a strawman than anything.

diddley

crayolastereo wrote: »

Theres a difference between all government is bad and our government is bad. If we did anything right your friend would change his mind. Human nature doesn't really allow for anarchy to lead to a functioning society.

I see what you're saying, but what do you propose in order for us to do it right? What I'm trying to say really is..if we're using the right system, then why is it going soooooooo so horribly wrong?

Dravokivich

BickNarry wrote: »

However, with everything, the extremists and idiots get the press so lets slap on an anarachy wrist band , a black hoody and listen to green day!

This is actually the last thing I think about when someone mentions Anarchy. There has to be some form of accepted regulated control, with Anarchy there's no room for that.

seamus wrote: »

Well it's worse than that. You won't pay any tax at all. All services are provided by private enterprise, who quite logically will charge you for that service.
If there's little or no money to be made in a particular service - think healthcare for pensioners - then that service simply isn't offered and people go without....

I hear ya... just tried to break it out a little easier for the placards

Kasabian

Anarchy is not what you think it is OP. It is brewing under the surface.

kfallon

Can we not get back to sensible subjects like wankin' & ridin'???

The Waltzing Consumer

Anarchism is a pretty broad term. Can someone list a few bulletpoints in which they define anarchism in Ireland please? What does the OP believe anarchism in Ireland would be?

seamus

brianthebard wrote: »

FYP. Also what you described above about private enterprise providing everything, lack of regulators, etc, is not anarchism, its libertarian capitalism.

There's a blurry line between the two. Capitalism, even at its most liberal requires a certain amount of regulation to survive.

You also fail to realise that anarchists would desire nations and states to be deconstructed and be replaced with small self supporting communities, so you're not really saying anything they don't know or want, its more of a strawman than anything.

Well as I noted in a later post, nations are fundamentally incompatible with anarchy.

brianthebard

seamus wrote: »

There's a blurry line between the two. Capitalism, even at its most liberal requires a certain amount of regulation to survive.

I disagree, there are clear distinctions on the concepts of ownership, society, and the mode of production between the two principles/theories. Anyone should be able to distinguish the line between the two if these and other key concepts are taken into account.

Well as I noted in a later post, nations are fundamentally incompatible with anarchy.

But your post suggested an anarchist country was a realistic anarchist goal.

seamus

brianthebard wrote: »

But your post suggested an anarchist country was a realistic anarchist goal.

Actually, I was trying to address the OP's idea that public services would be taken over by private companies.

This is just a fun thread for pointing at anarchists and laughing. Drop the pendant and start pointing dammit!

Chuchoter

diddley wrote: »

I see what you're saying, but what do you propose in order for us to do it right? What I'm trying to say really is..if we're using the right system, then why is it going soooooooo so horribly wrong?

The Irish people are too stupid and apathetic to stand up to the government which is what we're supposed to be doing to keep things in check. Had we done our part, spoke with our feet and our money, we would not be in this position. When an apartment the size of a shoebox costs 300k its up to the people to get up and say what the hell is going on not just accept and take out a giant loan to pay for it. I'm not saying having a government is perfect, but nothing is, and it requires all parts of society to pitch in and make sure what they want is happening.

With an anarchist system, it doesn't matter what the people want, its whatever the companies want to do and we have no power to say I don't like this I'm voting you out. Also you're ****ed if you're poor, if all public services are privately run with no regulation. Can you really see companies providing free-(ish) healthcare and education as we do now?

minidazzler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1OukjlnjI

Any excuse to post a video!

Anarchists tend to be quite naive about how people would behave.

SkepticOne

Anarchism is more of a phase some people go through than a serious political philosophy. I can see the attractiveness for people who might have just left home e.g. students. They are still rebelling against the authority of their parents but don't care much for the idea of competing in the big bad world. Anarchy is attractive because it combines (somehow) the undermining of authority with socialism. That it is not practical is secondary.

YFlyer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8szRgIcYlY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Cheap Thrills!

crayolastereo wrote: »

The Irish people are too stupid and apathetic to stand up to the government which is what we're supposed to be doing to keep things in check.

HEY!!!! I'm not apathetic! :P:pac:

Biggins

diddley wrote: »

...So folks, what do you think of an anarchic Ireland?

I wouldn't be into it, nothing would ever go according to plan.

Snake Pliisken

crayolastereo wrote: »

The Irish people are too stupid and apathetic to stand up to the government which is what we're supposed to be doing to keep things in check. Had we done our part, spoke with our feet and our money, we would not be in this position. When an apartment the size of a shoebox costs 300k its up to the people to get up and say what the hell is going on not just accept and take out a giant loan to pay for it. I'm not saying having a government is perfect, but nothing is, and it requires all parts of society to pitch in and make sure what they want is happening.

With an anarchist system, it doesn't matter what the people want, its whatever the companies want to do and we have no power to say I don't like this I'm voting you out. Also you're ****ed if you're poor, if all public services are privately run with no regulation. Can you really see companies providing free-(ish) healthcare and education as we do now?

The companies are supposed to kept in cheque by trade unions in some forms of anarchy.
And people are ****ed if they're poor? You mean, like now?!

Im not saying im for anarchy, but the present system is not without it's massive holes. It's ridiculous how much power some lobbies hold when they represent only tiny percent of the population.

Biggins wrote: »

I wouldn't be into it, nothing would ever go according to plan.

:pac:

SkepticOne

Biggins

Snake Pliisken wrote: »

:pac:

Chuchoter

Snake Pliisken wrote: »

The companies are supposed to kept in cheque by trade unions in some forms of anarchy.
And people are ****ed if they're poor? You mean, like now?!

Im not saying im for anarchy, but the present system is not without it's massive holes. It's ridiculous how much power some lobbies hold when they represent only tiny percent of the population.



:pac:

Trade Unions? Can you imagine what would happen if we were run by the public service unions? They would be living in pure gold mansions and our hospitals would be sheds. I have nothing against public sector workers (I intend on becoming one!) but the unions are shocking.

seawolf145

seamus wrote: »

Like socialism, it sounds great in theory, but in reality the human factor screws it up.

QUOTE] Depending on where you are offcourse??

Terry

I always thought it was about cursing on live television, and then doing ads for butter.

PCPhoto

diddley wrote: »

Lol, I'm not even that into anarchism, I just think that government in this country drastically needs to change, it's depressing.

ignoring for a sec that this is AH ..... the problem is ... ALL those involved in politics for the last 20+years have all learned that they have no responsibility as a public representative and can earn shedloads of money - all that the current state of affairs has shown us is that the "public representatives" that are voted in ... are given a licence to abuse public funds and we are unable to punish them for it..they join the exclusive club that is "the Dail"

as regards the future - the next group of politicians need to have no connection to the past - no current politician should be allowed back into power (the government should be made from unemployed business people.. no point in putting a minister in charge of health/education/law reform, justice etc when they have no connection to it.... the government needs to consist of people who understand the system and know the internal problems and runnings.

if business minded people with a focus on managing finances were put in charge of public finance I'm fairly sure we would have a lot less money wasted....ALL PUBLIC SPENDING SHOULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR.... AND ALL POLITICIANS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE SPENDING OF THEIR DEPARTMENT !!!

Donkey Oaty

I'm an anarchist, and to prove it, I'll do something anarchisticism-like. Here's what the ruling class told me on their website:

You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

Ha! This'll rock the system.

French industrial production falls

By Ben Hall in Paris
Published: August 10 2010 12:10 | Last updated: August 10 2010 17:31

France’s economic recovery appears to be flagging after industrial production plunged in June, in stark contrast to a resurgent Germany.
Industrial output fell by 1.7 per cent, according to figures published on Tuesday by Insee, the national statistical agency. The decline was much larger than analysts expected, and wipes out most of May’s strong increase, which was revised up to 1.9 per cent.
EDITOR’S CHOICE

France to rein in state-backed groups - Aug-03


France urged to spell out budget deficit cuts - Jun-15


IMF warns Paris on over-optimistic forecasts - Jun-17




Over all, French industrial output rose by only 0.8 per cent during the second quarter, well behind the German economy, which recorded a 5.4 per cent surge in industrial production from April to June.
The fall in French auto industry output, down 7.4 per cent in June, was the main contributing factor. “The phasing out of the car scrappage scheme is clearly taking its toll,” said Gilles Moec, economist at Deutsche Bank.
Analysts said the disappointing output figures meant their predictions for second-quarter gross domestic product growth due on Friday could prove optimistic.
Barclays Capital and BNP Paribas had predicted growth of 0.5 per cent, while Société Générale forecast 0.4 per cent. The French economy grew by only 0.1 per cent in the first quarter of 2010.
“It is a disappointing figure, but it is not dramatic,” said Laurence Boone, chief economist of Barclays Capital France. “It means GDP growth will be closer to 0.4 per cent than to 0.5 per cent in the second quarter.
Olivier Gasnier, economist at SocGen, said that a 1.3 per cent increase in manufacturing output in the second quarter was in line with performance in the first quarter. The withdrawal of car scrappage subsidies was weighing on industrial production with auto industry output down 7.4 per cent in June.
But Mr Gasnier said the figures were a “unpleasant surprise” because they suggested that the recovery had begun to slow having only just got under way.
“It is disappointing because we have the impression that recovery is already flagging and that is even before the [government] budgetary adjustments have kicked in.”
A business confidence survey by the Banque de France on Monday suggested a slowdown in the rate of recovery in manufacturing and services in the second half of 2010.
According to initial estimates published on Tuesday, the central bank expects the economy to grow by 0.4 per cent in the second quarter and 0.3 per cent in the third.
By contrast, economists expect Germany to power ahead, with growth of 2 per cent in the second quarter.
The recovery in German industry has helped the eurozone’s largest economy to reduce unemployment by 280,000 since July 2009, whereas in France the jobless rate has stabilised.
Warnings of a hesitant recovery in France are likely to prompt the French government to revise down its forecast of 2.5 per cent growth in 2011, regarded by independent economists, the European Commission and the International Monetary Fund as too optimistic.
A downward revision would add to President Nicolas Sarkozy’s woes.
If Paris were to cut its 2011 forecast to 1.5 per cent, it would need to come up with additional spending cuts or tax rises of €10bn in the 2011 budget which will be unveiled later next month.

monellia

OP should have clarified that the type of anarchism he is referring to is libertarian or market anarchism, which is basically the idea that every service the state provides can be provided much more efficiently by voluntary private institutions. This is because private companies have an incentive to produce the best resources so consumers will buy them. This will not only result in more efficiency, but also make goods and services cheaper overall as an unregulated market allows more firms to compete with each other. So there will likely be services available to the poor and destitute in society.

The age old “human nature” argument is based on a false premise that anarchy equates to lawlessness. In actuality it just means replacing government monopolised law enforcement with private policing agencies and courts. If you want to talk about human nature, look at the incentive structure of the state. If people are corrupt, surely it does not make sense to have a centralized body of corrupt people governing us.

Here are some links which should answer further questions:
http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/faq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism

Good day.

1968

For anyone interested, there's pretty a good Wiki entry on the history of Anarchism (Libertarian Socialism) in Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Ireland

(Apologies about bumping such an old thread)

--

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUig0lFHDDw