Would you leave if you could?

fintanspark

If any posters out there have an opinion on this let me know...

I've been living in Dublin for 12 years, and have always been considering a move to Canada for my family, based on where the economy is at the moment and even worse the long term prospects for recovery/growth I wonder if the recent ESRI indications of another mass emmigration from Ireland might come true over the next 2-5 years?

If you had an option to get out and start fresh for the long term in a country like Canada would you?

Should any posters have also recently relocated to Toronto, I'd welcome their feedback, positive and negative, as I've lived here almost as long as I lived there...

lasnoufle

Hi,

Well, I'm won't be the best example since I'm only in Ireland for less than 3 years, but I'm seriously considering doing it.

Canada is one of my potential targets too, I'm also considering Germany though I'd need to practice the language a little bit before.

TBH life in Ireland isn't too bad, but for me the quality of life is definitely lower than Germany or France, to compare with two countries I know. The salary seemed good here in absolute terms until I realized that mine was actually low in relative terms and most of it was "lost" in the cost of living, and that in the end I was getting less than one of my ex "unemployed" housemate that had an undeclared job.

Add that you get very little value for the tax you pay (slow, fragmented and expensive public transportation system, slow and VERY expensive health system), add that I don't feel exactly secure even in Dublin center, not even talking about complete areas that you can't even walk in at night (and I'm far from being the "victim" type, I can handle myself). Add insane prices and very bad value for accomodation.

So the big problem in my eyes is that all of this will only get worse. From this assumption, I'd say it'd be hard to just stay here and do nothing knowing already how you're gonna get cooked. I'll still wait until the next budget to see if someone comes with sensible solutions, but to be honest I highly doubt it and I'm already checking my possible destinations.

fontanalis

How easy will Canada be to get into for the long term? It seems to be a favoured destination, also hasn't Australia tightened up their visa rules?

danbohan

fontanalis wrote: »

How easy will Canada be to get into for the long term? It seems to be a favoured destination, also hasn't Australia tightened up their visa rules?

the US is in the shjjt too but will recover in short to medium term , wonder how long it will be until we have a lenighan or a cowen whispering in some irish american politicians ear about a green card programme like the donnelly / morrission ones from late 80s , they have an agenda here to protect the insiders and will do anything the can to facilitate the export of the surplus so the staus quo shall remain .

fontanalis

danbohan wrote: »

the US is in the shjjt too but will recover in short to medium term , wonder how long it will be until we have a lenighan or a cowen whispering in some irish american politicians ear about a green card programme like the donnelly / morrission ones from late 80s , they have an agenda here to protect the insiders and will do anything the can to facilitate the export of the surplus so the staus quo shall remain .

It won't happen, Irish people have effectively 0 clout in the US.

fintanspark

fontanalis wrote: »

How easy will Canada be to get into for the long term? It seems to be a favoured destination, also hasn't Australia tightened up their visa rules?

The Visa is tougher in Canada now, but in their process you get points for things like education, languages, etc... You can also apply through specific provinces for specific skill sets that might be required, however you need to be flexible with where you live, sometimes the jobs are in the less popular regions of the country.

I'm thinking more along the lines of lasnoufle, just the biggest problem I see for the foreseeable future is a lack of return on what we will all have to pay in taxes and charges. However based on the track record of this government the idea that something other than another round of direct taxes to a) pay for the increasing gov't debt, b) to pay for the government wage bill, and c)pay for the inevitable 10%-12% unemployed that the country is likely to support for the next 5 years; would be a miracle.

I'm lucky enough to have Cdn citizenship, so would have minor paperwork hassles to get back into the net there. And as Danbohan has pointed out when the US economy starts to recover it will not lead to the same FDI in Ireland, and therefore not the same level of increased job availability, they'll be outsourcing to cheaper nations. There won't be any greencard options though, look at the recent attempt to clear the way for the Irish living illegally, the US don't want it, and looking at the problems they have with illegals in places like Arizona, don't think immigration reform (or looking for more immigrants) is very high on the political agenda over there.

fontanalis

fintanspark wrote: »

The Visa is tougher in Canada now, but in their process you get points for things like education, languages, etc... You can also apply through specific provinces for specific skill sets that might be required, however you need to be flexible with where you live, sometimes the jobs are in the less popular regions of the country.

I'm thinking more along the lines of lasnoufle, just the biggest problem I see for the foreseeable future is a lack of return on what we will all have to pay in taxes and charges. However based on the track record of this government the idea that something other than another round of direct taxes to a) pay for the increasing gov't debt, b) to pay for the government wage bill, and c)pay for the inevitable 10%-12% unemployed that the country is likely to support for the next 5 years; would be a miracle.

I'm lucky enough to have Cdn citizenship, so would have minor paperwork hassles to get back into the net there. And as Danbohan has pointed out when the US economy starts to recover it will not lead to the same FDI in Ireland, and therefore not the same level of increased job availability, they'll be outsourcing to cheaper nations.

That leaves you in a good position obviously. I just see a lot of emigration thread on other sites and I get a feeling that many people think they may be able to waltz into whatever country they fancy.

Nehaxak

Emigrate: Yes
Canada: Yes

Canada is such a fantastic country too, go for it dude.

Chuchoter

No, but that might change in a few years when I'm into my career. My family is here, I love Dublin and I know where everything is and I like the weather. I would prefer to stay, but if I was going to go anywhere I would go to France or Germany. I think I'd fit in really well there, and it would be so much cheaper (wouldn't need a car because they have such good public transport)

Sleepy

If my family situation permitted it - maybe, I think my partner would go for it if it was just us and the kids. It wouldn't be fair to my step-son to take him away from his dad though so it's not an avenue that's open to me.

If I was single, I'd be gone like a shot. Most likely to the UK as I've very high earning potential there for somewhat sane hours (45-50 hour working week). Canada, US and Australia would also be options for me but from what I've heard from former colleagues who've gone down that route, the hours and / or holidays would be insane. Would probably do it if the money was right though. A couple of years in any of them and I'd be debt free and holding enough cash for an extended world tour (2/3 years)...

danbohan

fontanalis wrote: »

It won't happen, Irish people have effectively 0 clout in the US.

ever lived there ? , know anything about it other than your 5 day trip ? , it may not happen but am betting our prostitute politicians will be looking to see what they can get like they did in the 80s

dan_d

Yes. And I may yet be able to.

I've posted about my situation here before - made redundant in July, my partner is still working, we own a house.

We are seeing how things go until christmas and then we'll review the situation. We are both well-educated, in our late twenties and would like to live abroad at some point.

I don't want to sit at home, waiting for the pr&%ks who run this joke of a country to realise how bad things are. Ideally Vancouver would be great, as we have friends there. I like the idea of being able to ski in winter, and surf/sail/canoe in summer-the idea that sports are catered for in the city, and that people's quality of life is considered. I also like the idea of a good health service, prescription medicines that cost 10-20 dollars when you need them, and a public transport service that allows you to live 20 mins from where you work, regardless.

Failing that, anywhere else will do. Preferably Europe....I don't really want to get into the American work system, as I know from experience that holidays and free time as considered unnecessary over there.


Bottom line, yes I'd go in a heartbeat. I'd miss my family and would really, really miss my friends. I've no illusions about that. But I'd like to spend some years of my life in a proper country, where things are done in the interest of it's citizens and a good quality of life is possible without being a "developer" or a millionaire, and every other headline isn't about how someone in charge screwed the system, and is now getting away with it.My only fear would be that I'd be completely heartbroken at having to come home at some point.

fontanalis

danbohan wrote: »

ever lived there ? , know anything about it other than your 5 day trip ? , it may not happen but am betting our prostitute politicians will be looking to see what they can get like they did in the 80s

Immigration is a hot topic in the US and there isn't a snow mans chance in hell an exeption will be made for Irish people. I don't doubt for a second that tweedle dum and tweedle dee will try something but they will get no where.

wowa

We are in Canada, town of Gibsons, just north of Vancouver in BC. I came here with my wife- from Kinsale, in 2007. I am a physician- GP and Emergency Doc. We have subsequently had 2 boys since we arrived- something in the water I think!

How is it? It is amazing. Work is great with minimal political jostling or interference. Cost of living is high in Vancouver but much less so in the smaller towns and much less than in Ireland. My pay is double what it would be anywhere in europe.

The scenery is honestly the most beautiful in the world. Summers have long settled periods of 25-30deg. Winters are temperate, similar to Ireland but a little drier. Snow is all aorund on the hills however and we are 2hrs door to door from Whistler.

People are very warm and polite and most importantly, content with what they have. They are typically concerned for their community and is completely different to my experience towards the end of my time in UK.

My situation is very fortunate with regard to entry to Canada due to my work. I was sponsored throughout by the government and we received our permanent residency within 2 years. They still made me do exams however, which with 2 small children was not welcome!

As far as I am concerned, there is no place like it for children and there wellbeing is paramount in the community. My wife takes them to free groups every day of the week, lunch is provided etc etc- nice not to have to pay for EVERYTHING!

The best thing about all of this is that our 2 boys are Canadians. The opportunities this affords them is huge even if we return to Europe.

The downside- really not much but I can't get around my wife's affinity to Ireland. This is the definite downside to living anywhere away from family. For this reason we are returning to Kinsale for 12 months from the start of September. Kids and grandparents time but then a return to BC.

I paint a rosy picture indeed but it truly is a breath of fresh air. News is what happened less than 10 miles away rather than the global doom and gloom all too frequently reported.

If you get the chance do it. Research it to the full but do not expect an easy ride with immigration. They are getting tighter and tighter, especially in the current economic climate. If you have nothing to offer, forget about it. They are no soft touch (unlike the UK!).

RichardAnd

My parents gave serious consideration to moving to Canada in the late 80s when I was about 2-3 years old. They looked into it, found out about jobs and from what I know, were pretty much certain they were going to do it but they didn't. Not sure why really but as they say, the best laid plans.

Anyway, I often wish they did move because whilst things are pretty good for me here, I think Canada seems a nicer place to live. It's more stable, the people aren't as greedy or as narrow minded and, oddly enough, I always wanted to play ice hockey when I was younger .

I don't see myself emigrating to be honest. Despite all the problems, I do think things will start to improve here (or stabilise at least) within the next year or so.

daithicarr

From what my freinds tell me Canda is a nice spot particulaly with family, but not all have come back with storys of roses, it has its problems and downsides too. jobs are becoming harder to find over there as well, probablydue to the amounts going looking for work, but when things pick up globaly it should be up on top. definetly worth considering.

its a pity the people who most want to emigrate seem to be those who most want change. if all those who wante to emigrate instead opted to push for change here ireland could become a fantastic place to live.

i fear as more people leave it will let the pressure off the clowns in power for change and they will continue as always, leaving more people like myself to leave in dispair.

dan_d

Like everywhere I'm sure Canada has it's downs and ups - the only reason it's on my list is because we've got friends there, who send us over job vacancies, if we're interested, and because I like what I've heard about their quality of life. To be honest, money is the bottom of the list for both of us.

You make a good point daithicarr.The other side of the argument though, is that until Ireland becomes a country where we see the country-wide view instead of the local town view, this is always going to be a problem. We are still stuck in the 1800s in many ways, socially. Just look at Ivor Callelly. Brian Cowen can't get rid of him because the Constitution won't allow it. And to change the constitution you need a referendum...call the bloody referendum, and change a few other lines of the constitution while we're at it, such as the ones relating to our entire voting system.Instead of bleating about the situation to the media, and actually doing nothing about it.

Honestly? Most of the people of Ireland just don't want to hear about change..."ah sure" is the prevailing attitude in many places. We're too afraid to go out on the streets and do anything. For all we sneer about the French and their strikes, they certainly keep their administration on their toes...they make their feelings known. Anytime that's suggested around here it's "I'm too busy trying to make ends meet" "I'm too busy looking for a job" " punish them at the ballot box", "it'll be hijacked by others". We're all busy. Absolutely punish them at the ballot box. If there's enough people who are deadly serious about their cause, the "others" will be squashed pretty quickly.But we need to make our administration aware in the here and now that the people of Ireland are deeply unhappy, and the consequences for them will be that they will be voted out, unless they improve vastly;up their game, between now and then. We need to stop just accepting this behaviour, and start shouting about it.

I'm stopping now, as I'm totally derailing this thread. But the people who are left behind are just as capable of doing something about this mess, as those who are planning on going.It's whether or not they're actually prepared to is the real question.

hinault

fintanspark wrote: »

If any posters out there have an opinion on this let me know...

I've been living in Dublin for 12 years, and have always been considering a move to Canada for my family, based on where the economy is at the moment and even worse the long term prospects for recovery/growth I wonder if the recent ESRI indications of another mass emmigration from Ireland might come true over the next 2-5 years?

If you had an option to get out and start fresh for the long term in a country like Canada would you?

Should any posters have also recently relocated to Toronto, I'd welcome their feedback, positive and negative, as I've lived here almost as long as I lived there...

Unfortunately I am not in a position to emugrate.
My family and my work are here in Ireland and I have lived and worked here all my life.
I would love to be ableto move but I am not in a position to do so.
(I suppose I could move but the disruption to me, my wfe and my family would be monumental).

But my brother emigrated to Canada 4 years ago and he absolutely loves living over there.
He had a secure job here when he left, so it wasn't a case of his having to emigrate - he did so out of choice, not necessity.
He said that the way of life and the opportunity over there leaves this country in the shade.
I know him well enough to be sure that what he's telling me isn't "rosetinted" versions of life over there.

It is shameful that this country's people have, in many cases, no other option but to emigrate to build a life for themselves.
This basket case of a country has managed to create another recession for itself - except this time people not only have few job prospects, many are also weighed down by huge debt (mortgage debt, personal debt, student debt, potential negative equity).

jester77

Why do people make it so difficult for themselves by moving to countries where they require visa's, are a long way from family/friends and usually require exams to gain citizenship?

Would it not be so much easier to move to somewhere within the EU? You are never more than a cheap 2 hour flight home, in a time zone where you can ring family/friends at any time and you don't need any visa's. Picking up the local language is not difficult and there are lots of multi-nationals where English is required.

fintanspark

jester77 wrote: »

Why do people make it so difficult for themselves by moving to countries where they require visa's, are a long way from family/friends and usually require exams to gain citizenship?

Would it not be so much easier to move to somewhere within the EU? You are never more than a cheap 2 hour flight home, in a time zone where you can ring family/friends at any time and you don't need any visa's. Picking up the local language is not difficult and there are lots of multi-nationals where English is required.

The main problem with this is that the majority of the EU is already in a position where they have an oversupply in their workforce. Many places within the EU are in a very similar situation to here, and I believe that is one of the main reasons that these further afield nations look more tempting. And while the local language(s) in the EU can be adopted with relative ease the transition of one person, let alone a family is a huge adjustment to make without throwing in problems communicating in the local language your everyday life.

daithicarr wrote: »

its a pity the people who most want to emigrate seem to be those who most want change. if all those who wante to emigrate instead opted to push for change here ireland could become a fantastic place to live.

i fear as more people leave it will let the pressure off the clowns in power for change and they will continue as always, leaving more people like myself to leave in dispair.

I do very much agree with this and know that Ireland is a fantastic place to live (and die according to a recent Economist Unit investigation it was 4th), it has outstanding scenery, all road infrastructure is finally improving to access these areas, a very livable and small population, for the most part people have an excellent outlook and I really don't believe that the same cohesion through the "craic" exists in any other country. It is truly unique in my experiences.

With that, the points about the political foundations, and long term outlook are my two main concerns (will save my opinions on standarised testing inthe secondary schools for another forum). The political system is in my humble opinion a joke, the same party has been in power for the past what 15 years? The setup of the political system as examined in the recent RTE program Aftershock with those 4 Irish societal commentators/economists was an eye opener and displayed just how far the country has to go to correct the mistakes of the past, the missed opportunity for change in those periods of the past. I can hear you say that here we are again at another turning point, and if we do not go, then I will be more than happy to lend my support to any initiative to improve the quality of life that will be here for my children when they are 20, because at the moment, that is really my main personal concern. But seeing our taxes go to support the massive errors of private industry does not give me great hope for this period.