Spoilers****Silva V Sonnen - the aftermath

mwin80

Warning - The following post contains a spoiler for those who haven't seen this fight yet.


Firstly, respect to both fighters. What a war. But most importantly what a supreme wrestling dispaly by Chael Sonnen.

People said he was dillusional, that he didn't belong in the cage with Silva etc etc etc. Nobody's saying that now. Before the fight, I personally didn't think Sonnen would win but i hoped that he would. I wanted to see Silva get beaten up for a few reasons but did i really think that Chael was the man to do it? Not really.
During the fight, i was on the edge of my seat, heart pounding. I could not believe what i was seeing. A man that nobody gave a chance to in this fight was man-handling Silva. Silva got dominated time after time in this fight by the best grappling, wrestling, and ground and pound dispay i have seen. Sonnen was relentless!!!! Awesome! This is why MMA is the most exciting sport to watch. The unpredictability.

In my humble opinion, Silva got lucky. Sure, it was ability, experience and sheer instinct that allowed him to capitalise on that luck and that's what got him the W. It proved what we already knew - that you cannot count a man like Silva outta the game until the final bell has rung. As long as the clock is ticking Silva is very much in the game. But for me, the real winner is Chael Sonnen. He silenced the nay-sayers in spectacular fashion. He did exactly what he said he was going to do - get Silva on his back and pound his face! He backed up his trash talking with action and he did it in a style that is rarely seen. It seemed like he was actually the only person who really believed what he was saying before the fight. But he lived up to his words in super-hero fashion.

During the fight his physical ability was obvious - it was there for everyone to see - but equally impressive, but less noticable, was his state of mind. His belief in himself. His ethic of hard work and determination and the will to just keep on going was what impressed me the most. He didn't stop thorugh the whole fight. It was admirable and he deserved to win and keep his promise to his father but it wasn't to be and that's just the way it goes sometimes. He was Silva's worst nightmare for 4 and a half rounds - and nobody thought that he could do it. Inspirational stuff. It was a fight that, for me, i will always remember.

One thing has gotten up my nose though and i'd like to hear what everyone thinks. In the post fight interview with Joe Rogan, Silva said he had a rib injury going into the fight. My feeling is that this is somewhat of a lie. Silva is a proud man and i believe he was saying this to excuse the fact that he got dominated. Straight after the fight he was playing up the injury. On his way out of the arena he was signing autographs and actually stopped mid-signing at one point just to grimmace in pain in front of the fans. Bullsh1t! Sure, maybe there was something slightly up with his ribs going in there, who knows, but was it as bad as he was making out after the fight? I really don't believe so for a second and i can back it up - as Silva was leaving the ring, somebody (can't remember who it was) came up to congratulate him but instead of patting him on the back, this person patted him on the stomach - in the area where Silva had pointed at when talking about the injury. Silva didn't so much as blink - he didn't push the hand away, he didn't grimmace in pain, he didn't say anything to the other person. Seconds before, when he getting dressed while talking to Joe Rogan, he didnt seem in any real pain as he stretched and bent down to put his Gi back on. Also before the fight, and during it he showed no signs of an impeding rib injury. Granted, he doesn't want to advertise an injury but if your as hurt as he was letting on to be then you would not be able to go through a fight like that without giving away signs of your injury. Not even Joe Rogan, who has an uncanny insight into these things, picked up on any sign of an injury. I am open to the possibility that maybe Silva had a very very minor rib issue but i don't believe, that if he did, that it impeded him in anyway. He got dominated and was lucky to pull off the win, end of story.

I've read all the post fight news and watched the interviews etc but nobody seems to have mentioned this. So what do you think? Anybody else on the same wavelength or was it just me?

rovert

Silva did have a rib injury he was favouring his side the entire fight just look at him walking back to his corner at the end of rounds. Additionally he didnt really make massive efforts to get it standing for the most part.

AirborneAnto

I have to say I agree with Rovert, silva was watching his side the whole fight and when brought to ground he made no real attempt to ressist and stay standing. As for being patted on the stomach after the fight well you tend not to notice your injuries too much straight after a fight like that, your body is pumped with adrenaline and isnt really focusing on non essential areas like the ribs not to mention he must have been extatic after tapping Chael out.

MarkFairman

I agree that Chael did extremely well! He was winning the fight for 4 and a half rounds......

But who did more damage? Yes he was on top and dominated, landed alot but really didnt do much damage. I personally I think he had Silva in more trouble on his feet then on the ground. You just need to look at both fighters afterwords, Silva did more damage from his back then Chael did from the top.

In saying that all credit to Chael, But I do feel Silva was over confident in his stand up and thought he could fight Sonnen with his hands down and got seriously rocked.

But I think Silva proved he is a champion, he can be put in bad situtation and not give up. Get grinded for 4 rounds and not break.

With regards to Faking an injury??? who are you to judge, have you ever fought before? with the intensity you have to train for a fight like this, your sure to pick up injuries. Loads of fighters just bite the bullet and fight hurt. To me it makes there performances all the more incredible. Im sure he had hurt his ribs and im sure after 4 and a half rounds of Sonnen ground and pounding him they hurt a hell of alot worse!!! Silva has no reason to make excuses let alone fake them. He is most dominant champion ever in the UFC.

I realise you like Chael and wanted him to win, but dont let that cloud your judgement and try and take away from an incredible win by Silva over an extremely tough opponant.

mwin80

mwin80 wrote: »

During the fight, i was on the edge of my seat, heart pounding. I could not believe what i was seeing. A man that nobody gave a chance to in this fight was man-handling Silva. Silva got dominated time after time in this fight by the best grappling, wrestling, and ground and pound dispay i have seen. Sonnen was relentless!!!! Awesome! This is why MMA is the most exciting sport to watch. The unpredictability.

Fair play to Sonnen and like most wrestlers he's only playing to his strengths, but they are the football equivalent of a 4-5-1, or the GAA version of 14 behind the ball and handpassing the whole way up the pitch in possession. IMO it's boring as hell to watch, same goes for Fitch before it.

However i accept it's a fight and if your good at it your obviously going to stick to it, but i'd disagree with saying it was edge of the seat stuff.

Niall0

Even Chael said he beleived Anderson after the fight about the rib thing.

For me this fight reminded me of Dan Severn vs Royce with the wrestler dominating and getting caught towards the end of the fight.

Chael was pacing himself on the ground and wasnt throwing the most heavy punches which was fairly smart as he was always doing at least the minimum amount of work to avoid the standup. Over a five round fight it was only a matter of time before he got caught by a jiu jitsu black belt, I dont think Anderson just got lucky.

I do think this fight has highlighted how Anderson finds it difficult to get back on the feet once hes taken down by a decent grappler, it was the same in some of the pride fights but he usually got stood up due to inactivity.

Id love to see Vitor get a shot next but i think ring rust will be a factor if he goes straight into a title fight after such a long layoff.

mwin80

Thanks all for the replies, i really wanted to hear some other opinions. Judging by the replies so far i can accept that it's looking like i'm wrong about the extent of the Silva's injury. There's a couple of points of view there that make me wanna watch the fight again which i will do later.

Regarding the questions directed at me - i don't need to explain to anyone who i am or what my background is. IE: have i ever fought? I posted my opinion on a fight. End of. I don't have to explain explain my background to be able to give my opinion. I don't feel i need to answer the questions either way in order to justify my opinion. I posted the thread to get other opinions and i respect those opinions and am very open to that fact that my opinion could be wrong but i'm not bothered getting into arguements and answering such questions.

Thanks again for the replies.

MarkFairman

Sorry If that came across badly.

However somtimes its hard to listen to people bad mouthing fighters when they themselves have no idea of what is involved. How easy it is to get injured in training.

Of course you can have an opinion, but there are educated opinions an non educated.

The Freeman

mwin80 wrote: »

I am open to the possibility that maybe Silva had a very very minor rib issue but i don't believe, that if he did, that it impeded him in anyway. He got dominated and was lucky to pull off the win, end of story.

firstly we are not medical professionals so who are we to know how and when the rib injury may hurt or be effective in a performance.

I know one thing..the Anderson Silva that fought on saturday wasn't the fighter from the Forrest Griffin fight, he was out of sorts for sure.
kinda seems like he is dis-interested in fighting tbh, he didn't even have his hands up guarding his strikes from sonnen in the first round, his balance and striking was all over the placc. his knees and kicks were off balance and didn't seem effective. he wasalso throwing big wide haymakers that made him go off balance which i thought was strange as he is a pinpoint striker with good technical ability, big leonard garcia wide shots are a joke in comparison.

one thing to note is that he is 35 now, that ain't young for a fast striker, he could have had his peak up until the last 6 months or a year, look at tito who was dominant in his early twenties but ain't the same fighter now at 35

mwin80

The Freeman wrote: »

I know one thing..the Anderson Silva that fought on saturday wasn't the fighter from the Forrest Griffin fight, he was out of sorts for sure.
kinda seems like he is dis-interested in fighting tbh, he didn't even have his hands up guarding his strikes from sonnen in the first round, his balance and striking was all over the placc. his knees and kicks were off balance and didn't seem effective. he wasalso throwing big wide haymakers that made him go off balance which i thought was strange as he is a pinpoint striker with good technical ability

I can definitely see your point on this. I had wondered if Silva would somehow feel restricted coming into this fight. He got a lot of abuse for running around the ring like he did against Maia and showboating. he did it against Griffin too to a lesser extent. The point is that we had seen him do this before which made me wonder if this was just part of his process to put himself in his preferred frame of mind. I think the pressure on him not to do any of that was huge and i wondered if this would somehow inhibit him mentally. Did it make him feel like he couldn't move around as much as he would have liked. Maybe he did not feel like his usual self because of this pressure not do what seems to come naturally to him due to his level of pride and passion. I would imagine that the pressure on him not to do that stuff was unimaginable given the fact that the press coverage of his actions against Maia was so huge. And i just wonder if maybe this knocked something out of him..... not sure if i've explained this point very well but hopefully i have.

MarkFairman

I think this rib injury would affect the way he moves also though and stopped him from switching stances, which he loves to do.

I however as the fight went on, when Silva tried to push the pace on the feet he was taken down. I think he would of like to be able to dance around and make Chael come over him more. However I think it was the combination of the injured ribs impeading his movement, and as mentioned above a feeling of pressure to push the pace of the fight on the feet, and then inevitably get taken down.

ScareGilly

gilberto_eire wrote: »

However i accept it's a fight and if your good at it your obviously going to stick to it, but i'd disagree with saying it was edge of the seat stuff.

You didn't find that fight exciting in the least? :eek: Are you human?

A bit off-topic, I'm loving all the people on other forums saying it was Anderson's plan to get beat up for 4 and a half rounds and finish him by submission with about a minute left :pac:

I love these forums..

seadnamac

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Fair play to Sonnen and like most wrestlers he's only playing to his strengths, but they are the football equivalent of a 4-5-1, or the GAA version of 14 behind the ball and handpassing the whole way up the pitch in possession. IMO it's boring as hell to watch, same goes for Fitch before it.

However i accept it's a fight and if your good at it your obviously going to stick to it, but i'd disagree with saying it was edge of the seat stuff.

You sure you're a fan of MIXED Martial Arts?

calex71

I was mostly surprised with how well sliva looked in the end vs the amount of shots he took.

I put it down to that bad ass beard he was sporting

roo1981

mwin80 wrote: »

I can definitely see your point on this. I had wondered if Silva would somehow feel restricted coming into this fight. He got a lot of abuse for running around the ring like he did against Maia and showboating. he did it against Griffin too to a lesser extent. The point is that we had seen him do this before which made me wonder if this was just part of his process to put himself in his preferred frame of mind. .

I think it was more so to the fact that Sonnen got in his face right off the bat and stayed there. Ando always starts slow, he likes to figure out his opponents footwork and movement before attacking, he just didnt get the chance to with Sonnen. He got the absolute piss beaten out of him in that fight, kudos to him for managing to pull it out of the bag.

onlyasuggestion

Sonnen just didn't give him the kind of respect a lot of other fighters have. Most of his recent opponents were too afraid to hit him when he's show boating, dropping his hands, sticking his head out etc. when he tried that in this fight he got punched in the head.

Very impressive by Sonnen for most of the fight. Personally i think it was the elbows that Silva threw from the bottom that made the difference in that last round. It got Sonnen flustered for the first time and that's all a guy like Silva needs to throw a triangle on. Love to see a rematch though.

ScareGilly

ScareGilly wrote: »

You didn't find that fight exciting in the least? :eek: Are you human?

I love these forums..

Nope, i don't find wrestlers exciting, not when they get the fighter down and can keep him there for the 5mins each time. As i said it's like the 10 men behind the ball in football. I respect it's a part of the game, my point was just i don't find it exciting.

seadnamac wrote: »

You sure you're a fan of MIXED Martial Arts?

:rolleyes: So you can't like MMA if you don't like EVERY aspect of it?.

I don't like out and out wrestlers, i prefer fighters with a full game, the ones who will only revert to wrestling IF they ain't having success elsewhere.
It was the same with Munoz last week, spent the whole fight just trying to get Okami down, it just shows how lame they are when they can't get the other guy down, instant defeat.

I never said they should ban it or anything like that, i just said i don't find it exciting, same way i don't like similar tactics in other sports, doesn't mean you shouldnt watch it or question someones love of a sport, i'm sure other people don't like other aspects.

Don't forget they altered the rules because of this type of fighting, where fights were stalemates on the ground, now they have to keep working and improving position, just found it harder to take in a 5 rounder and since Silva was incapable of getting back up, just made the fight less predictable.

I acknowledge it's a part of the sport..... i just said i didnt find it ''edge of the seat'' stuff

cletus

Wrestling is a MAJOR part of mma, its is fundamental to the sport, so it is strange to hear a fan say they dont like it

With regards to Sonnen simply holding him down, we must have watched different fights, because the Chael Sonnen i watched was relentless on the ground for 4 and a half rounds

cletus

cletus wrote: »

Wrestling is a MAJOR part of mma, its is fundamental to the sport, so it is strange to hear a fan say they dont like it

With regards to Sonnen simply holding him down, we must have watched different fights, because the Chael Sonnen i watched was relentless on the ground for 4 and a half rounds

My original point was i don't find it as ''edge of the seat'' stuff, which is what i originally replied too, not in a fight where the opponent is incapable of getting back up for the rest of the round.

I never said ''he just held him down''... i said ''keeps him down'', obviously he was working or he would have been stood back up, which i referenced to in the rules changes a few years ago. My point was i don't find it exciting when a takes the opponent down with ease and the opponent can't get back up until the round ends, i made no reference to what actually takes place on the ground after that, as i understand without working they get stood up.

I think the problem is too much credit is given to take downs and thats why so many wrestlers are successful, in fairness to Sonnen he worked and caught Silva with a lot of shots from the guard, but you often see a wrestler who just takes someone down, does the MIN in the guard and walks away with the win.

A perfect example of this was Mousasi and King Mo, Mo did NOTHING but take him down and from there Mousasi punched the head of him from the bottom yet still lost as Mo was on top(the stats at the end backed this up).

In terms of wrestling, Sonnen used his effectively and should have walked away with the win, i just made the point i didn't find it an exciting fight as such

seadnamac

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Nope, i don't find wrestlers exciting, not when they get the fighter down and can keep him there for the 5mins each time. As i said it's like the 10 men behind the ball in football. I respect it's a part of the game, my point was just i don't find it exciting.



:rolleyes: So you can't like MMA if you don't like EVERY aspect of it?.

I don't like out and out wrestlers, i prefer fighters with a full game, the ones who will only revert to wrestling IF they ain't having success elsewhere.
It was the same with Munoz last week, spent the whole fight just trying to get Okami down, it just shows how lame they are when they can't get the other guy down, instant defeat.

Sorry I find this comment a bit bizarre. You say you only like fighters who have a full game, but that they should only try wrestling if nothing else is working?? That's not having a "full game". Wrestling is a huge part of MMA and one of the most effective aspects. If a fighter is good at it, he should use it. Period.

I bet you have no problem with fighters who only look to strike and keep the fight standing? Do you consider them to have a "full game"?

seadnamac

gilberto_eire wrote: »

A perfect example of this was Mousasi and King Mo, Mo did NOTHING but take him down and from there Mousasi punched the head of him from the bottom yet still lost as Mo was on top(the stats at the end backed this up).

Striking is one of the scoring criteria. The other three are grappling, aggression and octogon/cage control. Mo won that fight clearly.

seadnamac

seadnamac wrote: »

Sorry I find this comment a bit bizarre. You say you only like fighters who have a full game, but that they should only try wrestling if nothing else is working?? That's not having a "full game". Wrestling is a huge part of MMA and one of the most effective aspects. If a fighter is good at it, he should use it. Period.

I bet you have no problem with fighters who only look to strike and keep the fight standing? Do you consider them to have a "full game"?

No i didn't say thats what they should do, i said i prefer fighters who can do a bit of everything, Rashad has top class wrestling but he uses the other aspects of his game, GSP can mix and match too.

I didn't say Sonnen shouldn't have used his wrestling..... get my original point PLEASEEEEEE

I DIDN'T FIND THE 5 ROUNDS TO BE EXCITING...I ACKNOWLEDGED IT'S A BIG PART OF THE GAME

Sonnen followed up his takedowns with effective striking and there was no doubt he was winning 4 rounds, BUT there have been instances where a wrestler has just got someone down, down F all from there and still taken the fight, which is wrong IMO, King Mo being the best example, he BARELY passed guard and he threw next to no strikes, he took Mousasi down numerous times so i'm guessing a few times that was because he wasn't working and got stood back up, and one point Mousasi was swinging his arm back and forth just pounding his face.... yet loses because he was on his back.

And spare me the patronizing remarks about the scoring system and ''standing and striking'' :rolleyes:

seadnamac

gilberto_eire wrote: »

No i didn't say thats what they should do, i said i prefer fighters who can do a bit of everything, Rashad has top class wrestling but he uses the other aspects of his game, GSP can mix and match too.

I didn't say Sonnen shouldn't have used his wrestling..... get my original point PLEASEEEEEE

I DIDN'T FIND THE 5 ROUNDS TO BE EXCITING...I ACKNOWLEDGED IT'S A BIG PART OF THE GAME

Sonnen followed up his takedowns with effective striking and there was no doubt he was winning 4 rounds, BUT there have been instances where a wrestler has just got someone down, down F all from there and still taken the fight, which is wrong IMO, King Mo being the best example, he BARELY passed guard and he threw next to no strikes, he took Mousasi down numerous times so i'm guessing a few times that was because he wasn't working and got stood back up, and one point Mousasi was swinging his arm back and forth just pounding his face.... yet loses because he was on his back.

And spare me the patronizing remarks about the scoring system and ''standing and striking'' :rolleyes:

No, you clearly said you prefer fighters who only resort to wrestling if nothing else is working and that, to you, this is having a "full game". It's right there in your post.

And I don't think my point about what you think of fighters who only look to strike is patronizing. It's the exact same point you were making, except with one aspect of MMA replaced by another.

seadnamac

seadnamac wrote: »

No, you clearly said you prefer fighters who only resort to wrestling if nothing else is working and that, to you, this is having a "full game". It's right there in your post.

And I don't think my point about what you think of fighters who only look to strike is patronizing. It's the exact same point you were making, except with one aspect of MMA replaced by another.

I didn't say only reverting to ground game as a last resort was having a full game, but i prefer fighters who aren't just going to try one thing over and over even when it's failing and who can mix it up in various ways. In the case of Silva/Sonnen, Chael would have been stupid to stay standing with Anderson.

I just meant a random scenario, two fighters who can do the same things.
I prefer to see them try outstrike each other first and then if one isnt having success go for the takedown. I didnt mean a wrestler in any given scenario should only use his wrestling as a last resort, i just meant i hate seeing wrestlers/ground guys who make no effort to improve their all round game and when they can't take a guy down the fights effectively over.

Two examples being Meia against Silva and Munoz two weeks ago, nothing but ground game and spent the whole fight pathetically diving at their opponents legs time after time without success.
A more successful example would be someone who stands striking for 1/2 mins then goes for the take down, using the element of surprise.

I was in no way talking about Sonnen in all of this as he used his game to perfection i just said i don't like (King Mo type) wrestlers who can't do nothing but take a guy down.
I got dragged so far off my original point about not finding the 5 rounds ''edge of the seat'' stuff, i'm lost at this stage.

And your remarks were patronizing, i know what the scoring system is, they repeat the thing every event. And the striking remark gave the impression of ''i bet you boo when a fight goes to the ground'' which i don't, as i say again, i don't mind effective GnP i just don't find it overly exciting.

ScareGilly

gilberto_eire wrote: »

example being Meia against Silva, nothing but ground game and spent the whole fight pathetically diving at their opponents legs time after time without success.
A more successful example would be someone who stands striking for 1/2 mins then goes for the take down, using the element of surprise.

Hold your horses, you want Demian Maia, one of if not THE best Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in MMA to try and stand up against, possibly the most dangerous striker in MMA? If you want to use that fight as an example, your example would be Maia hitting the canvas... Useless argument there..

ScareGilly

ScareGilly wrote: »

Hold your horses, you want Demian Maia, one of if not THE best Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in MMA to try and stand up against, possibly the most dangerous striker in MMA? If you want to use that fight as an example, your example would be Maia hitting the canvas... Useless argument there..

When did i say i WANT him to stand :rolleyes: ..... i said it's sad seeing someone with a one dimensional game that's not working and having no back up plan, not once in the fight did he say 'f it, i'm dwn here, i'm going for broke'' and start swinging. So that example does count in the context i was using it. I prefer fighters who have a more rounded game, and it's more effective using their ground game if they can stand and bang to a degree where the takedown attempt isn't so obvious.

Do you not remember that fight, he DIDNT get him down...shouldnt that have ended with him on the canvas

cletus

Strikers much better than Maia have had serious difficulty standing with Silva, so suggesting a more rounded Maia is pointless, his gameplan would still have been to take him down (which was also Chael's gameplan)

With regards to "out and out" wrestlers, basically it is on the opponnet to develop their wrestling enough (ie sprawl) to prevent being taken down, not on the fighter to say "Is this exciting enough for the fans"

If you want fighters more concerned with excitement than fighting to win, then Vince McMahon has a promotion you might like

I always find it funny that nobody ever comes on and says "i can't believe x fighter chose to stay standing and bang when he was clearly being out-matched, I find it so boring"

As for GSP being able to mix and match, he had to work extremely hard to put wrestlng into his game, which he uses more and more often

Tim_Murphy

cletus wrote: »

I always find it funny that nobody ever comes on and says "i can't believe x fighter chose to stay standing and bang when he was clearly being out-matched, I find it so boring"

I actually say and think things similar to this regularly enough, nothing worse than seeing great wrestlers or JJ guys stand and have an average quality kickboxing match (e.g. Hughes V Renzo)

cletus

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I actually say and think things similar to this regularly enough, nothing worse than seeing great wrestlers or JJ guys stand and have an average quality kickboxing match (e.g. Hughes V Renzo)

Thanks Tim, I meant from the point of view of "fans" loving to see two guys stand and bang regardless of who gets clipped, just cause they want to see guys swinging, and it was pretty much in direct response to the idea that Maia shouldnt have pushed so hard for the take down

Fracture

I missed the fights that night, i was away all weekend, anyone know where i can watch them? I can't find anything on the net.

bigdogbarking

Fracture wrote: »

I missed the fights that night, i was away all weekend, anyone know where i can watch them? I can't find anything on the net.

I normally watch the fights here, i'm sure if you looked around you'd find it!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist :P , just in one of those moods, try http://www.p2pstream.info/2010/06/channel-1.html , really good site, high quality ppv fights etc i know they have some older fights under wrestling tab so it should be somewhere there